| Well then. I knew the Kuroko no Basket fandom was big and intense but I didn't know it was THIS bad. |
Downgrade355 said: @Friendlymatch You just voided yourself of any ounce of credibility with that "female/non-female section" statement. 900 booths for an event as big as comiket, and for an anime that has the most fujoshi fanbase, is still small, especially if you put in mind all 3 days of comiket. No. 900 for only one anime. This means that for that anime (Kuroko no Basuke) they are the majority at Comiket. Our discussion was about whether that particular anime pandered to fujoshi and those numbers prove that fujoshi are a massive and dedicated group there. There might be 1000's of other anime represented at Comiket, with countless more fans, but the fact remains that for this anime, the great majority of sellers and fans at Comiket are fujoshi. Downgrade355 said: Commercial producs are not the same as Fanarts and fan-made stuff. Touhou isn't even an anime (It's actually a doujin-game) and it's still to this day dominating Comiket, yet most people don't even know what Touhou is or don't even care. I made it clear I was talking about official merchandise, not fanart. I used the example of Prince of Tennis. For this anime there is lots and lots of OFFICIAL merchandise pandering to fujoshi. This clearly shows that anime creators of SOME non-bl series also try to attract them and make lots of money off them. I made clear I was talking about official merchandise in my post, so don't act like I was talking about fanmade stuff. Downgrade355 said: This conversation is going off-topic, i don't know what you're trying to say or what point you're trying to prove, since you keep talking about irrelevant stuff that has nothing to do with the original subject, but try at least to make it a bit relevant. The one who denied there was any pandering to fujoshi in Kuroko no Basuke was you. I've given ample proof that you were wrong. So now you start talking about the anime industry as a whole, which means it's actually you that goes off-topic. Yes, fujoshi are not the majority and bring in not all that big a percentage of revenue for the industry as a whole (though probably more than we used to think). But for some particular non-BL anime they very much are an important source of revenue, which I have already showed. Downgrade355 said: P,S you might want to take a look at those Doujinshi sites such as Toranoana, Dlsite, etc, i'm sure that'll change your view on things and make you a bit less of a fangirl-ish when you argue with people about such subjects. Aw, another insult. This, your last post before this one, and your off-topic sways, while then accusing me of going off-topic, don't make you very convincing when you're talking about Kuroko no Basuke. And that is the anime we talk about here. |
| Does anyone actually know what the letters actually said? |
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| @FriendlyMatch What are you talking about? Did you just say that the great majority of sellers and fans at comiket are fujoshi? i guess you either can't read, or you're delusional and stubborn. or just ignorant. Fujoshi are the minority at Comiket, the "minority", meaning they are small in size, the fanbase in comiket that i'd call the "majority" are the Otaku, heck even the otaku aren't that big in comiket, there are many casual fans. and as for sales, go check Toranoana's rankings of doujinshi and goods. You still gave me one example, Prince of tennis, how does that prove your point? The proof you gave me was that post-ending picture, how does that prove that they pander to fujoshi? you're just making yourself look like a fool now, seriously. "fujoshi are not the majority" Oh now they're not the majority? stop messing with your own words. How is that an insult? But hold on, we're talking about KnB right? Let's get this clear then, you mean that KnB's majority of fans at comiket are fujoshi, right? If that's what you're trying to say then i never said otherwise, i already told you that's obvious, you're just going back and forth in your argument. |
symbv said: ]The number of days is irrelevant, as 900 booths is 900 booths for 3 days. I am not sure your definition of "small" but in terms of popularity of the titles KuroBas is the THIRD MOST POPULAR titles in Comiket (in terms of dedicated booths). You seem to want to use "small" and "niche" when viewed in the bigger picture of the mainstream world, but I think Friendlymatch is not talking about in terms of the broad mainstream consumers but within the doujin and Comiket world. To me Friendlymatch actually made quite a few good points and observations, so you saying him talking "irrelevant" is puzzling. However, I would say that Friendlymatch should try to avoid mixing fujoshi and female fans. Fujoshi is the word for female fans who are into BL and, truth to be told, fujoshi actually forms a minority of the whole female fan base, even in manga/anime like KuroBas, Uta-Prince or Hetalia. Thanks for your rationality. My point from the beginning has been that Kuroko no Basuke does pander to fujoshi to a certain extent and that this is does help bring extra revenue. The only time I called fujoshi a majority was when I talked about them amongst Kuroko no basuke fans at the Comiket. I never called them a majority amongst people at the Comiket. I've also never called them a majority amongst Kuroko no Basuke fans as a whole and most certainly have not called them a majority amongst anime fans or even female anime fans as a whole. Downgrade had no arguments against anything I REALLY said, so he kept acting like I made all kinds of claims that I haven't made, so he could have something to say. I'll show this here again: Downgrade355 said: @FriendlyMatch What are you talking about? Did you just say that the great majority of sellers and fans at comiket are fujoshi?i guess you either can't read, or you're delusional and stubborn. or just ignorant. No, I didn't. I said that they were a majority of Kuroko no Basuke fans at the Comiket. Look: Friendlymatch said: There might be 1000's of other anime represented at Comiket, with countless more fans, but the fact remains that for this anime, the great majority of sellers and fans at Comiket are fujoshi. Did you see that? I said "for this anime". Acting like I wrote that they were the great majority of sellers and fans at Comiket makes you look like you either can't read, or you're delusional and stubborn or just ignorant. Or, and I suspect that's the case, you actually have no good counter arguments against what I really wrote and so you make up some stuff so you can have something to argue against. Downgrade355 said: You still gave me one example, Prince of tennis, how does that prove your point? That there are other Non-BL series that pander to fujoshi, as I clearly said twice before. Downgrade355 said: The proof you gave me was that post-ending picture, how does that prove that they pander to fujoshi? you're just making yourself look like a fool now, seriously. Nope, because you still have given no counter argument against it. Tip: calling someone 'misinformed' or foolish is not a counter-argument. Downgrade355 said: "fujoshi are not the majority" Oh now they're not the majority? stop messing with your own words. The majority amongst Kuroko no Basuke fans at the Comiket, as I said before. The one who kept talking about fujoshi as a percentage amongst anime fans as a whole was you and I've never tried to disprove that. Downgrade355 said: But hold on, we're talking about KnB right? Let's get this clear then, you mean that KnB's majority of fans at comiket are fujoshi, right? Yes, you finally got it! Downgrade355 said: If that's what you're trying to say then i never said otherwise, i already told you that's obvious, you're just going back and forth in your argument. Please quote yourself where you said to me that this was obvious. Because I can't find it. |
| @FriendlyMatch Lol you do realize that this is both our fault, right? You kind of didn't phrase it properly or made it clear, and it's also partly my fault for misunderstanding, i kept getting confused because at one time we talk about comiket and the other we talk about prince of tennis and such. So yeah, its awkward right now. |
Downgrade355 said: Well, as far as I see many of those who look down upon the fujoshi never really take any chance of knowing them or reading what they write. Those male fans just hold a certain perception of what fujoshi (or female fans even) do or say and just base their comments on that perception. Fujoshi interact and communicate not in the usual 2ch places or internet forums for anime, and male fans don't go to fujoshi places to socialize. Those comments you mentioned above from female fans may come up in forums in the west as males and females seem to mix much more than in Japan, whereas I almost never see such comments in the most popular Japanese forums for anime. I have a feeling that fujoshi keep themselves quite apart from the more numerous male otaku because they know there is blatant hostility there, and they are probably right. I bet that those who post hostile comments about fujoshi in 2ch quite likely never read any real fujoshi comments like those you posted above.Yes it is, it's widespread and annoying and offensive to many people, specifically regular female fans, and it's either from those male fans who look down upon or despise the female fans (Which is mostly the result of the fujoshi behavior that annoys many people regardless of gender and preferences) like you said, or the fujoshi who try to make their presence known, we all have come across the "it has male characters, it must be for us kyaaa!!", "OMG DID U SEE THAT PICTURE AFTER THE ENDING?!?! THIS ANIME DEFINITELY FOR US", "OMGOMGOMG! (insert name of two male friends in anime) ARE SO CUTE AND THEY SO CLOSE" comments. So i think both are at fault. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| @symbv Well, in all honesty, and i don't mean to sound like a jerk, i perfectly understand why they wouldn't take a chance of knowing fujoshi, mainly because of their hobby, and that applies to all people, not just those japanese 2ch male otaku you somehow always mention. fujoshi comments pop up in Youtube and nicovideo also, the dislike of fujoshi also comes from the whole "they made our favourite characters gay" thingie, i don't usually give a crap but i do feel extremely awkward when that happens to me, and it's perfectly understandable that anyone would be pissed at this. you're basically trying to justify the unjustifiable, those 2ch people you're trying to blame aren't at fault here (Well they partly are), they have a valid reason. anyway, i don't really care what happens there in japanese forums or whatever, we're on a english site, we always see those unnecessary annoying fujoshi comments, here or on youtube or anywhere where the fujoshi are present, so my point still stands. |
Downgrade355Dec 11, 2012 7:04 AM
Downgrade355 said: @FriendlyMatch Lol you do realize that this is both our fault, right? You kind of didn't phrase it properly or made it clear, and it's also partly my fault for misunderstanding, i kept getting confused because at one time we talk about comiket and the other we talk about prince of tennis and such. So yeah, its awkward right now. There were several times where you twisted what I really wrote (as with the 'for this anime' thing just before). That was not me being unclear, but you saying I wrote something I didn't. And I've explained more than once why I talked about Prince of Tennis. BUT, despite this, I did not really get a vibe off you as a bad guy who enjoys calling people names or anything, more as one who was a bit frustrated and baffled with fujoshi. Perhaps because you have little experience with them or what you have was negative and made them seem weird. Next time when you discuss things with someone, read a little slower and make sure you react to what was really said. It will stop misunderstandings. Often people are not as outrageous or against you and your views as you think they might be ;) I think that what we can call it quits now that we've established we agree about most things. Have a good week. symbv said: Well, as far as I see many of those who look down upon the fujoshi never really take any chance of knowing them or reading what they write. Those male fans just hold a certain perception of what fujoshi (or female fans even) do or say and just base their comments on that perception. Fujoshi interact and communicate not in the usual 2ch places or internet forums for anime, and male fans don't go to fujoshi places to socialize. Those comments you mentioned above from female fans may come up in forums in the west as males and females seem to mix much more than in Japan, whereas I almost never see such comments in the most popular Japanese forums for anime. I have a feeling that fujoshi keep themselves quite apart from the more numerous male otaku because they know there is blatant hostility there, and they are probably right. I bet that those who post hostile comments about fujoshi in 2ch quite likely never read any real fujoshi comments like those you posted above. I think you made some very good points here. Many guys have a bad perception of fujoshi and often lash out at them based on what they think of as fangirlish nonsense. Let's not forget though that (as we all seem to agree on here) there is more fanservice for men than for women. Men already got plenty of what they like, while fujoshi often have to make do with suggestion, but get not nearly the level of fanservice that men get. Not that many female fans seriously attack male fans for watching fanservice, while fujoshi are more of a target. So let's give fujoshi the same break guys get and let them watch and enjoy their stuff. They might look weird in people's eyes, but let's not forget that male anime fans were also considered weird (and nerdy, dateless and whatever else they were called) up until very recently by most non-fans and sympathize. |
| Because its disturbing, you're not disturbed by it? good for you, but most people are. and "non-canon hetero pairings" really dude? really? you're seriously going that road again? Wow, just wow. on that note, i don't see anyone complaining about Yuri fans, wonder why...Oh wait, because when they pair up two female characters, its either because the anime is targeted at them, or those two female characters have subtle romance going on. and even then, they definitely aren't as annoying as (some) fujoshi. Friendlymatch said: I think you made some very good points here. Many guys have a bad perception of fujoshi and often lash out at them based on what they think of as fangirlish nonsense. Let's not forget though that (as we all seem to agree on here) there is more fanservice for men than for women. Men already got plenty of what they like, while fujoshi often have to make do with suggestion, but get not nearly the level of fanservice that men get. Not that many female fans seriously attack male fans for watching fanservice, while fujoshi are more of a target. So let's give fujoshi the same break guys get and let them watch and enjoy their stuff. They might look weird in people's eyes, but let's not forget that male anime fans were also considered weird (and nerdy, dateless and whatever else they were called) up until very recently by most non-fans and sympathize. You think a guy watching an ecchi anime that is clearly made for such purposes is the same as a fangirl grabbing two male characters from some random anime, pairs them up and draws them holding hands, hugging, etc and shoves it down people's throat? ... No wonder people are quitting MAL recently, guess that hacker messing up the site was just a little motivation for them to finally leave. |
Downgrade355Dec 11, 2012 7:13 AM
Downgrade355 said: The thing is I do not see as immense hostility or spite coming from female fans or fujoshi about male otaku spewing out sexist remarks for girls in anime (not limited to fanservice/ecchi anime) and tendency to fantasize about girls going nude or having sex (or raped) at the slightest hint of the girl showing a bit of undressing or talking as a "bitch". It is much more likely to see male fans to associate female fans as fujoshi for example; and to mark any criticisms from female fans as rubbish fujoshi opinion. This is the imbalance of the casualness, intensity and frequency of male fans attacking fujoshi (and female fans) that I want to draw attention here. fujoshi comments pop up in Youtube and nicovideo also, the dislike of fujoshi also comes from the whole "they made our favourite characters gay" thingie, i don't usually give a crap but i do feel extremely awkward when that happens to me, and it's perfectly understandable that anyone would be pissed at this. Downgrade355 said: Valid if they really see a fujoshi intruding into their territory. If they make comments only because they heard bad things about fujoshi, then I would say that such behavior is not that defensible, particularly if they would not hesitate to scream about how a girl character should just take off her clothes since she has such a slutty face etc. I am not saying some of the fujoshi's fantasy is easy for non-BL fans to take in, but the fact is fujoshi really do not make their presence as prominent as many think they are. To me, fujoshi making fantasy call about the male characters is not really worse than male otakus fantasizing about the female characters. Fujoshi can hype an anime for all the wrong reason, but so can male otaku. They can be annoying, but at the end it is just as annoying as some male fans hyping their anime for all the reasons that we do not agree. The only thing that I think fujoshi can go beyond acceptability is their reaction when they feel betrayed - like some male characters turn out to be much different from their image, or the male seiyuu did something in real life that they think is an "act of betrayal" and proceeded to attack fiercely their target online or offline. Well, some male fans can also do something similar but it feels there are more things that can get on the nerve of fujoshi than for the male fans. you're basically trying to justify the unjustifiable, those 2ch people you're trying to blame aren't at fault here, they have a valid reason. Downgrade355 said: But you comment as a reply to my comment where I made broad observation on both western and Japanese forums. Without specifying your scope in your comment, your comment sounds like a point made for Japanese as well as English-speaking fans. So I think I need to make it clear that there may be a difference between the behaviors of the two groups.anyway, i don't really care what happens there in japanese forums or whatever, we're on a english site, we always see those unnecessary annoying fujoshi comments, here or on youtube or anywhere where the fujoshi are present, so my point still stands. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
Downgrade355 said: Look, they are not advocating it really everywhere. And if we guys are ok with yuri I don't see why we should consider girls going along with yaoi disturbing. While I am no fan of yaoi and never feel any appeal of it, I think some fans having such fantasy should be allowed and not attacked. Because its disturbing, you're not disturbed by it? good for you, but most people are. Downgrade355 said: I don't really see why they are not as annoying. All I can see is that because we guys are more ok with girls being paired up and fujoshi (or female fans) do not complain about it, so we think it is not as annoying. It is true that fujoshi has more imagination pairing up guys but so what? It is their fantasy and I do not need to bother with it. on that note, i don't see anyone complaining about Yuri fans, wonder why...Oh wait, because when they pair up two female characters, its either because the anime is targeted at them, or those two female characters have subtle romance going on. and even then, they definitely aren't as annoying as (some) fujoshi. > shoves it down people's throat I wonder how they shove it down people's throat. You were tied up and force-fed their yaoi fantasy? |
symbvDec 11, 2012 7:21 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| @symbv except i don't see male otaku trying to make their presence known, if they fantasize about something, they keep it to themselves. the problem is that the vast majority of male otaku would do that only with an anime targeted at them, and i don't see the problem with it. I think you either hadn't met an actual fujoshi, or was lucky enough to not have a negative experience with one. but here's the thing, although i don't care and i've seen some really messed up crap in my life, i'm pretty sure most people dislike the Fujoshi just by knowing their hobby, you're gonna tell me "Oh otaku do this otaku do that", dude, normal guys fantasize about girls in real life and watch/fap to porn, kind of justifiable, so you can't really go comparing two different fanbases with completely different interests, preferences, mindset and attitude. EDIT: I'm ok with both, but i didn't have any negative experience with yuri fans so far, not even once. Also, you seem to be forgetting the fact that Yuri is mainly targeted at the female fanbase. If they didn't shove it down people's throats and if they didn't try to make their presence, then could you explain to me how most people on MAL or over half people who watch anime Know of yaoi, and most of those who do seem to dislike fujoshi? I really don't think that's without a reason. |
Downgrade355Dec 11, 2012 7:24 AM
| @jmal I get it, you're trying to look tolerant and all that. But here's the thing, you're not (I mean really? "OH ITS UNDERSTANDABLE THAT THIS ONE DOES THIS BUT ITS NOT UNDERSTANDABLE WHY THIS ONE DISLIKES THAT"), i'll just consider this another threads among the million ones where you show up and try to start an argument with someone else. This time i'll let you have the final say, bet you were waiting for it. jmal said: You can't actually believe this. You know what i can't believe? me googling Kuroko no basket without finding crapton of yaoi picture of it. on the other hand, i got fairly normal pictures when i googled Touhou and Madoka. |
Downgrade355 said: This is the opposite of what I see in 2ch and other internet forums. Comments about a female character should just go and take off her clothes come so often in those places every single day that it is hard to count them all. And some do not satisfy with just comment but post explicit pics like a girl wearing another girl's panty on her head to stress their point. If anything, they are definitely NOT keeping it to themselves. And it is so easy to see why those places see so few female fans (or they find it necessary to hide their gender when they post). @symbv except i don't see male otaku trying to make their presence known, if they fantasize about something, they keep it to themselves. the problem is that the vast majority of male otaku would do that only with an anime targeted at them, and i don't see the problem with it. Downgrade355 said: You seem have really traumatic experience with fujoshi and I wonder what happened. As for meeting real fujoshi, I guess those women selling fujoshi doujin in Comiket do count, right? It is just like meeting gay people for the first time -- at the end I found the only thing that I should have feared is the fear I originally had about meeting those people. It seems to me that whatever your experience with some fujoshi clouded your view about how fujoshi operate or should be viewed, to the extent you think it is tolerable to attack fujoshi while some behavior by male otakus regarding females is relatively minor. It seems to me that it is you who are trying to justify the unjustifiable.I think you either hadn't met an actual fujoshi, or was lucky enough to not have a negative experience with one. but here's the thing, although i don't care and i've seen some really messed up crap in my life, i'm pretty sure most people dislike the Fujoshi just by knowing their hobby, you're gonna tell me "Oh otaku do this otaku do that", dude, normal guys fantasize about girls in real life and watch/fap to porn, kind of justifiable, so you can't really go comparing two different fanbases with completely different interests, preferences, mindset and attitude. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
Downgrade355 said: Well at least he says so when he knows he may be not so tolerant (like the CGI discussion) and here I think it is you who sound intolerant while you try to wrap it as something that is all justifiable. Perhaps you should spare a thought of yourself why you seem to get into argument with people so easily in a discussion like this.@jmal I get it, you're trying to look tolerant and all that. But here's the thing, you're not (I mean really? "OH ITS UNDERSTANDABLE THAT THIS ONE DOES THIS BUT ITS NOT UNDERSTANDABLE WHY THIS ONE DISLIKES THAT"), i'll just consider this another threads among the million ones where you show up and try to start an argument with someone else. This time i'll let you have the final say, bet you were waiting for it. > on the other hand, i got fairly normal pictures when i googled Touhou and Madoka. Like Homura wearing Madoka's panty on her head or Mami forcing her way to harrass Madoka |
symbvDec 11, 2012 7:37 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| @symbv Is that so? but like you said many times, 2ch is predominantly male, they're doing that shit just between themselves, and like i said, "normal" guys, guys who have a life, a job, study, or even guys who're married, watch porn and fap to it, for (kind of) valid reasons, it's justifiable. Well, let's just say i'm one of the millions of people who had a negative experience with them. c'mon man, gay people are different, it's not like they choose to be gay or choose to have feelings for the same-sex, seriously... Oh so you're right and everyone else who dislikes fujoshi and their behavior is wrong? Alright man, that's fine. EDIT: Didn't find such picture, it's probably there easily missable amongs those dozens of normal madoka pictures, compared to the easily noticable KnB ones. |
Downgrade355 said: Aren't you applying double standard here? Guys fantasizing rape or sex for a female anime character are "normal" and their behavior is justifiable, but not some women who fantasizing about sex for some male anime characters? @symbv Is that so? but like you said many times, 2ch is predominantly male, they're doing that shit just between themselves, and like i said, "normal" guys, guys who have a life, a job, study, or even guys who're married, watch porn and fap to it, for (kind of) valid reasons, it's justifiable. Downgrade355 said: It is not difficult at all to find those explicit pics about Madoka, yuri or hetero. There have been tons of them even back when we were still in the middle of the series, and I did not even need to state that I was looking for yuri or hentai Madoka pics to see them coming out in my search. Didn't find such picture, it's probably there easily missable amongs those dozens of normal madoka pictures, compared to the easily noticable KnB ones. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| @symbv hold on a minute, aren't you jumping to conslusions? or you're saying Otaku who pair up Kirito and Asuna from SAO and make them have sex is the same as fujoshi pairing up two perfectly straight male characters from anime not intended for them and in any cases anime intended for young audiences? again, i said people who're married, have kids, NORMAL guys watch porn and masturbate to it. Or perhaps normal girls fantasize about two straight guys in real life? knowing you and jmal, i'm surprised you guys haven't mentioned that yet. exactly. i wasn't looking for KnB Yaoi pictures when i googled "Kuroko no basket". |
Downgrade355Dec 11, 2012 7:55 AM
| What does that have to do with what we're talking about? I'll be browsing the forums, waiting for that big day where you hopefully manage to get rid of this bad habit of yours. |
Downgrade355 said: Where did I jump to conclusion when it was you who suggested that guys talking about female anime characters having sex is "normal" and justifiable but not female fans talking about male anime characters having sex? Kirito and Asuna having sex is not really fantasy after all - it used to be part of the web novel until the publisher and the author decided to cut it out when they published the novel. I was talking about fantasy of Homura and Madoka having hot yuri sex, or the guy posting online saying he wants to rape the characters in K-On really hard. Those are common comments seen in anime forums. I don't see how they are better than fujoshi pairing up two guys in an anime and let them have sex. @symbv hold on a minute, aren't you jumping to conslusions? or you're saying Otaku who pair up Kirito and Asuna from SAO and make them have sex is the same as fujoshi pairing up two perfectly straight male characters from anime not intended for them and in any cases anime intended for young audiences? Downgrade355 said: Well, if we are fine with guys fantasizing yuri in anime, what's the problem of women fantasizing yaoi in anime? Why should a girl who fantasize yaoi not normal?Or perhaps normal girls fantasize about two straight guys in real life? knowing you and jmal, i'm surprised you guys haven't mentioned that yet. |
symbvDec 11, 2012 8:21 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| @symbv hold on a minute, so what you're saying is, someone who pairs up a male and female straight characters, draws them having sex is the same as someone grabbing to straight male characters from an anime not intended for them and pair them up (And implying it's normal)? is that what you're trying to tell me? i have never seen any guy post such comments, and trust me, i've seen some crap in my life. Madoka Yuri doujins are like one in ten, compared to like, eight or nine in ten KnB doujins where they're nothing but Yaoi. So what's your point? symbv said: Well, if we are fine with guys fantasizing yuri in anime, what's the problem of women fantasizing yaoi in anime? Why should a girl who fantasize yaoi not normal? Again, you seem to be forgetting the fact that Yuri's fanbase is mostly female. and What the hell, now i might be misunderstanding this and overreacting, but are you implying that it's "normal" for a girl to fantasize Yaoi (Note i never said it's normal for a guy to fantasize Yuri, so stop messing with words and twist the whole argument)? Let's hope i'm the one misunderstanding here. and let's hope you don't go "Oh that's a double standard" again, i mean seriously, it won't be long till people like you guys will go "guys should have vaginas and boobs and women should have beards and dicks too". @jmal So why exactly are you, or WE, comparing different fanbases, anime, preferences, etc? I mean, weren't you the one who said (On that incest anime thread) that someone who likes something doesn't have to agree with another one's preference? That's hypocritical, you never admit you're at fault, you always try to make it seem like you're right and everyone else is wrong. |
Downgrade355Dec 11, 2012 9:34 AM
| @jmal You might want to read from page 1 before you jump in an argument (to make it worse, like always) again. and no, that's not the exact same argument your making. You're just trying to make it look as if other people are wrong and you are right, no matter the circumstances, you don't try to understand why or how they came to hate that specific thing you're trying to unjustifiably defend. you made your point, i made mine, we're done here, let's see what symbv got to say and i'm leaving this thread for good hoping to never come across you guys again. |
| @jmal You just proved my point :/ |
jmal said: No, but you can go on believing I did. I can live with that just fine. Sure, you too, feel free to go on believing you're the saint. i can also live with that just fine. |
| Lol, whatever man, can we move on? It's getting awkward here. |
Downgrade355 said: Lol, whatever man, can we move on? It's getting awkward here. look on the bright side, now you have 700 posts :p |
     |
supermegasonic said: look on the bright side, now you have 700 posts :p Haha yeah, i have jmal and symbv to thank for that. |
Downgrade355 said: You think a guy watching an ecchi anime that is clearly made for such purposes is the same as a fangirl grabbing two male characters from some random anime, pairs them up and draws them holding hands, hugging, etc and shoves it down people's throat? Women get ecchi stuff stuffed down our throats all the time, canon or otherwise. It's on almost every anime site, often as a gimmick on the homepage even, on the cover of every mainstream manga/anime magazine and in every anime store staring right in our faces. Just go to the frontpage here and there's a far bigger chance that you see pics of anime with a girl drawn specifically to attract guys than that you see any kind of BL. Guys are far less often confronted by BL stuff than women are by fanservice for guys, but react way more extreme whenever they do see it. Female anime fans might not want to see panty shots and cleavage everywhere (and that is just mentioning the less extreme things guys go for), but whenever they do say something (even if only mildly) many guys will react with fury. It's very easy to say that ecchi anime is okay but fujoshi created stuff is not. They get far less of it, have to be creative and pour a lot of resources in it, while guys can just sit back and enjoy. Whenever you like to complain about fanservice for fujoshi, you should remember what you called a woman who might complain about fanservice for guys. You called such a woman a "prude, intolerant rotten hypocrite." Downgrade355 said: Lol, whatever man, can we move on? It's getting awkward here. Then don't make it awkward by calling other people names and their preferences disturbing, while still demanding that people respect your own preferences. supermegasonic said: Downgrade355 said: Lol, whatever man, can we move on? It's getting awkward here. look on the bright side, now you have 700 posts :p And I doubled my posts, and I have solely Downgrade to thank for it ;) |
FriendlymatchDec 12, 2012 5:20 AM
| No, Kuroko no Basket was not directed for a female audience, let alone a fujoshi audience, but those people still enjoy it because it's something that suits their preferences. And you know what? They're allowed to enjoy it. They're allowed to ship what they want. 'These characters are so obviously heterosexual!' shouldn't stop them from shipping. Let's say you have a shoujo show directed at girls. Can a boy watch it? Sure he can. Can he ship the main female protagonist with another girl rather than her male love interest? Sure he can, because that's the relationship he sees a lot of potential in. Telling people not to ship what they like to ship isn't going to do you any good. People ship what they want, and there's nothing wrong with that. |
| @FriendlyMatch I thought i was done with you, why do you keep coming back to post nonsensical crap just to start more arguments? And frigging really? You get ecchi stuff shoved down your throat? Do boobs and ass scare you? i mean you have them, they're part of your body, but that's beside the point, You're watching an anime targeted at the male audience and you complain about Boobs popping up on the screen? That's ridiculous. (I'd understand if it was Yuri, but seriously, you're used to see'ing something alot worse, you watch Yaoi, so what the heck?) and i have yet to find a shoujo or an anime targeted at females that has fanservice for men, so stop being a troll with your irrelevant nonsense, i'm starting to think you're just bored. symbv already mentioned this, but you seem to be mixing Fujoshi fanservice and Casual female fanservice, and you seem to blame only guys for disliking fujoshi stuff, there are just as much girls who dislike it as guys, it's just that they're less vocal about it. again, stop mixing different genres/audiences/types of fanservice, You think guys will complain if they show a male character topless? You think they'll complain if they show some cheesy sex scene in a shoujo? you think guys complain if they show a male character in a fanservice shower scene? so get your crap together and realize that there's a huge difference between fanservice for the wider female audience and fujoshi stuff. But here you are, bitching about boobs in anime targeted at MEN? most normal girls wouldn't complain about that, or rather, girls with a sane mind and common sense, so me calling you "prude, intolerant and rotten" was right on the damn spot. and some people wonder why Fujoshi are hated so much... Friendlymatch said: And I doubled my posts, and I have solely Downgrade to thank for it ;) Oh please stop it, i didn't do anything, rather it's all just you, with that much time on your hands and your fangirl attitude, so no need to thank me. |
Downgrade355Dec 12, 2012 7:30 AM
Downgrade355 said: Well, in both cases we see fans attempting to pair up characters that are not paired in the anime. I don't see why if in one case it is normal then in the other case it is not normal. In neither case the pairing is sanctioned in the anime. Unless of course if you are against homosexuality, then I can see why you want to call yaoi pairing not normal. @symbv hold on a minute, so what you're saying is, someone who pairs up a male and female straight characters, draws them having sex is the same as someone grabbing to straight male characters from an anime not intended for them and pair them up (And implying it's normal)? is that what you're trying to tell me? Downgrade355 said: I just gave some examples of what I heard more often. Those are not even some one-off comments I read in forums, but they came up often enough that it left an impression on me. As for the proportion of yuri Madoka doujin versus KuroBas yaoi doujin, I don't see your point -- both are fans drawing for fans' consumption. It should not have any bearing on why fujoshi should be hated. They just came to like an anime for a different reason than other people, so what? i have never seen any guy post such comments, and trust me, i've seen some crap in my life. Madoka Yuri doujins are like one in ten, compared to like, eight or nine in ten KnB doujins where they're nothing but Yaoi. So what's your point? Downgrade355 said: Yuri's fanbase is mostly female??Again, you seem to be forgetting the fact that Yuri's fanbase is mostly female. Downgrade355 said: Why it is abnormal for a girl to fantasize Yaoi? I know you never said it's normal for a guy to fantasize Yuri, but I think it is perfectly normal for a guy to fantasize Yuri. and What the hell, now i might be misunderstanding this and overreacting, but are you implying that it's "normal" for a girl to fantasize Yaoi (Note i never said it's normal for a guy to fantasize Yuri, so stop messing with words and twist the whole argument)? Downgrade355 said: The double standard comes in for you because you are calling guys making sex fantasy about female characters as normal and justifiable but for girls making sex fantasy about male characters then they are not normal. Well, if you are one of those homophobic people who cannot even tolerate some fictional characters becoming a target of homosexual fantasy by some people, then I can see why you want to hold such double standard. Let's hope i'm the one misunderstanding here. and let's hope you don't go "Oh that's a double standard" again, i mean seriously, it won't be long till people like you guys will go "guys should have vaginas and boobs and women should have beards and dicks too" |
symbvDec 12, 2012 10:55 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| @symbv You seem to have a "unique" mindset that most people would find abnormal, i'm not even sure how to respond to what you wrote there, you basically threw logic and common sense right off your brain. you also seem to lack knowledge about alot of stuff, i'll leave this conversation here, i feel like we live in different planets, i'm sure by now you'd consider pretty much anything normal. Here's hoping this'll be the last post regarding this arguement, and preferably this thread too. Or we can continue the conversation in PM if that's what you want, i'd rather not get banned over something trivial and irrelevant. |
Downgrade355Dec 12, 2012 11:14 AM
Downgrade355 said: I guess if you live in a homophobic world of your own, you will think that everything is not normal with yaoi fantasy. And the fact you use "logic and commonsense" (without saying what it actually is besides your own opinionated thoughts) to buttress your irrational and emotional case for objecting to fujoshi only prompts smiles in me. @symbv You seem to have a "unique" mindset that most people would find abnormal, i'm not even sure how to respond to what you wrote there, you basically threw logic and common sense right off your brain. Downgrade355 said: Seems that you are again resorting to making blanket comment to fire a few potshots without any details or valid argument so that you can save face, just like what you did with people like jmal and FriendlyMatch. If anything, you are the one who has repeatedly shown biased knowledge and use it to attack people who don't agree with you.you also seem to lack knowledge about alot of stuff, i'll leave this conversation here, i feel like we live in different planets, i'm sure by now you'd consider pretty much anything normal. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| @symbv Yeah, let's blame everything on homophobia and use it as an excuse for the dislike of yaoi or fujoshi or yuri or whatever. But here's the thing, i support equal rights, so you're whole "homophobic world" arguement makes no sense, being supportive of homosexuality or incest or anything for that matter doesn't change wether something is normal or not. i have morals my friend, i know what is normal, and Yaoi, or Yuri for that matter, is definitely not in the list, if you think it is then that's your opinion and your mindset, don't go forcing your views on other people (even though most people would consider your views strange and abnormal). and like i said, by now i believe you'd consider pretty much anything normal. And yes, you do lack knowledge (on top of common sense and logic), I told you most of Yuri's fanbase is female and you denied that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic_Yuri_Hime "The readership of Comic Yuri Hime is approximately 70% female" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_(genre) "yuri originated in female-targeted (shōjo, josei) works" guess you'll try to deny that too. |
Downgrade355Dec 12, 2012 11:41 AM
| @dairinchan I do try to leave and stop replying, but when i see the outrageous nonsensical comments that make me lose faith in all internet and possibly humanity, i just can't. and don't worry, it's not like this is the first time symbv or jmal go rampage on the forums, i lost count on how many people they got into arguements with. |
Downgrade355 said: I think the Yaoi and Yuri fans get the thumbs down more often than not because the seen part of that fandom is mostly composed of really fanatical people, IE: they think rape is normal, call actual gay couples 'seme' and 'uke', and are just generally strange. Do I like Yaoi and Yuri? Sure do. Do I take it as far as that? No. I have a feeling you've probably had a bad rap with a fujoshi, and I'm sorry about that. But what you're arguing right now is saying 'ALL FUJOSHI ARE WRONG AND STRANGE AND YUCK!!!' when they are literally the same as people shipping straight characters together and imagining them together. There are some strange ones out there, sure, but that's not every single one. Please consider that for a second. |
| Holyshit dude, are we ever going to let this argument end? Yeah yeah, they're literally the same in that they ship two characters together, everything else is different. i never said all fujoshi are the same though, i know there are those few mature and understanding ones who know people find their hobby weird/disturbing whatever it is and try to avoid being immature fangirls which in turn makes people more tolerant about their hobbies, but unfortunately there's just too much immature, braindead fangirls. So, are we done here or you have anything to add? If you do have something to add then feel free to PM me. i'm trying to avoid bans here, thank you. |
Downgrade355Dec 12, 2012 2:45 PM
>the buffoonery ITT |
 |
Downgrade355 said: You are just like one of those people who claim to support equal rights, but when something related to homosexuality touches upon things you care, then you jump up with overreaction. A kind of "not in my territory" mindset. If you think what I said was not correct, then tell me why you think having sex fantasy for male characters is not normal. But here's the thing, i support equal rights, so you're whole "homophobic world" arguement makes no sense, being supportive of homosexuality or incest or anything for that matter doesn't change wether something is normal or not. i have morals my friend, i know what is normal, and Yaoi, or Yuri for that matter, is definitely not in the list, if you think it is then that's your opinion and your mindset, don't go forcing your views on other people (even though most people would consider your views strange and abnormal). Downgrade355 said: Over-generalization drawn from your deep bias is another hallmark of your posting. No wonder you have all this problem with meaningful discussion on an open forum. and like i said, by now i believe you'd consider pretty much anything normal. Downgrade355 said: Again your signature over-generalization comes into play. What knowledge? What commonsense? What logic? You failed to elaborate, but attack people because you fail to argue in meaningful manner, just like jmal said. You even failed to explain what kind of fanbase you were talking about for yuri fanbase. I have been talking about yuri fanbase of doujin, and what you talked about is the manga magazine of Yuri Hime and the origin of the Yuri genre, which is completely different from what I was talking about. (BTW, other yuri magazine like Yuri Hime S or Yuri Hime Wildrose has more male fans than female) Who lacks logic and commonsense here?And yes, you do lack knowledge (on top of common sense and logic), I told you most of Yuri's fanbase is female and you denied that. |
symbvDec 12, 2012 8:19 PM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
Downgrade355 said: One against many is hard, right? Just admit your opinion is pretty alone and isolated, reflect upon the questionable thinking and attitude of yours and try better next time.Holyshit dude, are we ever going to let this argument end? Downgrade355 said: Banned before? I wonder why I am not surprised. Again, time to take a good look at the problematic attitude of yours.i'm trying to avoid bans here, thank you. Downgrade335 said: And I guess you also lost count on how many people you trampled with your acerbic writing filled with your own misconception and bias. And you can bet jmal and I will keep trying to fight half-truth, bias and misconception like those you often show in your posts. and don't worry, it's not like this is the first time symbv or jmal go rampage on the forums, i lost count on how many people they got into arguements with. |
symbvDec 12, 2012 8:26 PM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| @symbv Your definition of "normal" is out of this world. I was talking about Yuri in general, and yes, you do lack common sense, did you even read your post? try reading it from a normal person's perspective. Nah, it's fine, i'm used to you and jmal starting arguements with people, and jumping in whenever there is one going on. yes i was banned before, for going off-topic, which is why i'm trying to avoid that here but apparently someone's not going to let me. and "problematic attitude"? really? Last time i checked, i'm not the one who butts in other people's arguements or pretends to be a smartass on the internet. The word "misconception" is written all over your posts and mindset, my friend. and sure captain internet, feel free to fight for that nonsensical mindset of yours anytime, it just makes the whole thing even more ridiculous than it already is. |
| Out of your world, maybe, but anyway I have not gave my definition of "normal" except saying that girls having sex fantasy with male anime character is not abnormal. Why should it be taken as not normal, hmm? Downgrade355 said: The lack of commonsense is in you. We have been talking about fujoshi and its doujin fanbase that is based on their perception of the relationship of the male characters in anime. If you think what you think is the normal person's perspective, then perhaps it is your definition of "normal" that is off. I was talking about Yuri in general, and yes, you do lack common sense, did you even read your post? try reading it from a normal person's perspective. Downgrade355 said: Oh yes, I am sure I am not the only frequent visitors in MAL News section to find your attitude in your posts to be problematic, and you should try to think more about whether there is something wrong in the way you post that always get you into clashes with members in this section rather than blaming other people, like this case first against FriendlyMatch, then jmal and then me (but then others joined in to point out your unreasonable reaction - I am not sure how many more people need to come out to tell you that you are being unreasonable before you start have some self-reflection yourself) and "problematic attitude"? really? Last time i checked, i'm not the one who butts in other people's arguements or pretends to be a smartass on the internet. Downgrade355 said: Again without valid argument you are just shooting potshot to run away to save face.The word "misconception" is written all over your posts and mindset, my friend. |
symbvDec 13, 2012 2:52 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| @symbv You're getting more and more ridiculous, now it's "girls" "having sex fantasy with male anime character" "is not abnormal"? a girl fantasizing about having sex with a male character from an anime isn't abnormal (and it isn't normal, either), but that's not what we were talking about, we were talking about fujoshi, and their two male character pairs, see, you just lost any ounce of credibility you had left, you twist your own words and arguments to try to make it as if you're talking true shit and make others look like idiots (and then you tell me i'm the one who lacks common sense), and guess what, it's not working. Okaaaaaay, so you think a normal person considers fujoshi and their doujins, or even Otaku normal? i wonder why people in japan (or everywhere) feel disgusted with them. "without valid argument"? that's really ironic, coming from you. |
Downgrade355 said: Ha! I have repeated my point about girls having sex fantasy with male character several times in this thread. You missed them and you tried to pin the blame on the other side? And you still want to talk about credibility? There is little left in your twisted thinking. @symbv You're getting more and more ridiculous, now it's "girls" "having sex fantasy with male anime character" "is not abnormal"? a girl fantasizing about having sex with a male character from an anime isn't abnormal (and it isn't normal, either), but that's not what we were talking about, we were talking about fujoshi, and their two male character pairs, see, you just lost any ounce of credibility you had left, you twist your own words and arguments to try to make it as if you're talking true shit and make others look like idiots (and then you tell me i'm the one who lacks common sense), and guess what, it's not working. Downgrade355 said: Normal person is not a monolithic whole. Be intelligent. A social conservative can be a normal person, a social liberal person can also be a normal person. Asking what a normal person consider fujoshi is plain stupid. At the end, the question lies with whether you consider fujoshi normal persons, and I would ask why it is not normal for a person to fantasize pairing up characters for his/her own enjoyment. Okaaaaaay, so you think a normal person considers fujoshi and their doujins, or even Otaku normal? i wonder why people in japan (or everywhere) feel disgusted with them. Downgrade355 said: Well, as you still lack much of any true argument in your attack against me, it is just some more potshot for you to save face."without valid argument"? that's really ironic, coming from you. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
symbv said: Ha! I have repeated my point about girls having sex fantasy with male character several times in this thread. You missed them and you tried to pin the blame on the other side? And you still want to talk about credibility? There is little left in your twisted thinking. Wow dude, just wow. you know i can write down all the quotes where you were off and make you look like an idiot right now, but i'm not gonna do that, that time is precious and i can do something a bit more useful with it. i'm outta here, hoping again that this is over. |
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