| While I am not trying to start a flame war, and I'll admit to being a grumpy old man who usually prefers things from 'my era', which does shape my opinions on anime undoubtedly. I don't think I'm being unreasonable in what I'm about to say. A lot of the time when I'm watching older anime and using MAL to log it, I avoid clicking 'discuss it' because it depresses me the attitude some fans of (I presume only 'modern') anime have, the amount of times I've gone to discuss the first episode of something classic and someone goes - 'Too old, art is hilarious, can't watch...' is ridiculous. I've never heard anyone seriously go - 'Citizen Kane ? Black and white man, not watching...' etc., or 'Elvis ? That's mono, ain't no way I'm listening to that...' It's like they don't actually appreciate/value the artistic merit of anime or something, because although in other mediums obv there's always a slight element of 'newer is good' people don't usually straight away go 'old = cr4p'. Do you guys reckon this attitude is more prevalent in anime than other mediums? I kinda reckon it is. It seems that for a lot of these fans, unless it's got super clean (digitally) created fills and ultra solid lines, they literally WILL NOT WATCH. Which is a terrible shame as obviously it rules out a whole lot of anime which I love, and it kinda depresses me that so many people will ignore it without trying it properly. |
| I am 18 years old, and that really saddens me as well! They would much rather watch a shiny golden turd like Strike Witches and School Days than say... gold stone classics like Rose of Versailles or Treasure Island, which happen to be two of my favourites, in fact I have a cel for Treasure Island! I look for interesting characters and story in my stuff. Personally, I prefer cel animation, because it looks authentic, and still looks good IMO, whereas early digital stuff like the early half of One Piece and Wolf's Rain looks to be honest, pretty shit. Digital stuff I notice tends to age way easier than analog stuff, IMO SNES games look more appealing than most early PS1 games, like Jumping Flash! or Ridge Racer. I also really enjoy imperfections in cel, as it shows effort and a feel you can not replicate with cel. Character designs have also gotten way simpler, which depresses that people would rather watch generic moeblob series no. 9000 rather than something with a distinctive look, like say Akio Sugino or Leiji Matsumoto. There's a reason stuff like ROV, Lupin III and Galaxy Express 999 are still being talked even today. Are people REALLY gonna talk about... K-on or Angel Beats! in the next decade, besides, what impact have they made in the medium? Turn more people into moeblobs? GET OUT! I personally love going back in time on different mediums, like anime, film and music, because it allows you to discover some really amazing stuff, like ELO and Yes for music, Brazil and Eraserhead for film and GunBuster and ROV for anime. Theres my two cents on the subject. |
| yeah it is just so weird - in the Rinne No Lagrange thread it only seemed to be me and about one other person who didn't think it was amazing, there even people saying that it was 'un-moé' and some sortof return to old 'manly' anime. Listen not that I know too much about modern anime, but if Lagrange is relatively speaking a return to classic anime, I just don't know what to say! Yeah I do in general prefer the original pencil lined stuff myself, however even now the stuff isn't quite as digital as you might think, I thought EVERYTHING was done through drawing tablets nowadays, but I watched a program of imagine-nation recently on NHK and I can't remember who it was mighthave been Madhouse, but the only completely digital part was the colour fills, the cels were still actually hand drawn then scanned in. Then again I suppose the completely clean fills are a part of the feel of modern anime. I think a lot of the things that make a difference though are maybe after somethings scanned in, for example its probably a lot easier to scale something coming towards you nowadays, and I don't think we'll ever have those beautiful 'first person' style views, as it seems those are nearly always done polygonnaly nowadays. While I do like quite a lot of modern anime (well modern to me) (Gundam 00, TTGL, FLCL, Gundam Unicorn, FLAG, Gunpla Builders Beginning G), to me there just seems to me so much more passion and art per frame in the older stuff. Whether thats because there actually was or just because the digital part takes out what is there I don't know, but I don't think I'd ever get the same aesthetic pleasure from modern anime as from masterpieces such as this: http://r4ytrace.tumblr.com/tagged/gunbuster or indeed this: http://r4ytrace.tumblr.com/tagged/bubblegumcrisis The reason why it's really kindof jarring is because as I'm sure you know, as anime fans we have to deal with a lot of smirks and condescension from non anime fans, and it just kinda seems weird to me that people within anime fandom so quickly dismiss the origins/classics. It should be obvious from my name and indeed my rendered avatar that I'm not some anti-digital luddite, and I think when done well cel-shaded polygons (or rotoscoping of models) can look good, but I just wish people wouldn't dismiss stuff just because it isn't 'new' looking. |
r4ytraceDec 1, 2012 4:50 AM
| I love learning history! History in anything has always been one of my favourite topics! After adoring Princess Tutu, I wanted to know if there were any similar titles, and I happened to be recommended ROV, and was immediately caught my eye, and I saw it soon after Tutu. I love learning the origins of different genres, which is a nice feeling! In fact, I recently saw Lady Snowblood, as I liked Kill Bill, and I prefer it to Kill Bill! I would smack myself in the face if I heard someone say the new King Kong is better than the original 1933 movie, because it isn't IMO. The effects looks to CGI for me, the depiction of the director by Jack Black is painful to watch, and the pacing is a bit sporadic. I personally think Galaxy Express 999 Movie in 720p or Castle of Cagliostro looks better in HD than say.... Hells Angels and Azumanga Daioh, which look decent in DVD quality, but in HD, you can tell how artificial it is. And GunBuster looks fucking amazing in 1080p, much more than say.... Gurren Lagann. |
Klonoa7HDec 1, 2012 5:05 AM
Klonoa79H said: And GunBuster looks fucking amazing in 1080p, much more than say.... Gurren Lagann. Yep I have to say I always liked to try and work out the 'origin' of something, be it music or a film etc., the thing is this was before the internets when it was hard, now people could learn about this stuff after a few google searches, and they still seem to be not interested :(. Anywayz yeah Gunbuster is so incredible, the love pours off every frame; multicoloured paint splashes as galaxies, photocopied stuff, what appears to be literally just scratching a cel or somethign (this can be seen in the centre of the vortexy bit when she comes to the (non existent) bridge (trying to be unspoilery there)). When you think of what they must have had to do even for just the computer screen '3D' bits in that wonderful OVA, it is just incredible. Another bit which I thought was amazing was the slight fisheye lens bits as they approached the ship. |
r4ytrace said: Klonoa79H said: And GunBuster looks fucking amazing in 1080p, much more than say.... Gurren Lagann. Yep I have to say I always liked to try and work out the 'origin' of something, be it music or a film etc., the thing is this was before the internets when it was hard, now people could learn about this stuff after a few google searches, and they still seem to be not interested :(. Anywayz yeah Gunbuster is so incredible, the love pours off every frame; multicoloured paint splashes as galaxies, photocopied stuff, what appears to be literally just scratching a cel or somethign (this can be seen in the centre of the vortexy bit when she comes to the (non existent) bridge (trying to be unspoilery there)). When you think of what they must have had to do even for just the computer screen '3D' bits in that wonderful OVA, it is just incredible. Another bit which I thought was amazing was the slight fisheye lens bits as they approached the ship. I find it sad that the 1998 Godzilla is more well known than the original 1954 film, and IMO, that's one of the best classic films I've seen. The effects are amazing, the story is cool and depressing, and has marvellous music. I am very happy companies like Fantagraphics, DMP and Discotek are releasing loads of these golden oldies in English, yet they don't get high sales which depresses me, yet people will still go for NARUTO VOLUME NO. 234 because "its Nawutwo, and it's mordern, and it's like teh bestist shows evar!" I am very glad people are putting out stuff like Heart of Thomas, several Tezuka works, and retro anime like Lupin III and Fist of the North Star. |
| As a fansubber, what I'm going to say is going to be biased towards the fansubbing point of view. There's two aspects to this viewpoint, and as I typically do not mince words, I will say things that are probably harsh and offensive. One aspect is that the vast majority of modern "fansubbers" (note the quotes) want validation of the value of their work. To put it in other words, they depend on download counts to decide how much effort to expend to doing a series. In addition, they want to do it by spending as little money as possible; the amount of validation they want is directly proportional to how much money they spend on fansubbing. To them, older anime, which unlike your typical antique item that you would find in an auction, has substantially less value (if you're doing download counts, a WMT episode has only 5%-10% of the "value" of an episode of a modern series). When you've got limited resources in a fansubbing group, you would put them on things of more value. The other aspect is that a lot of modern "fansubbers" want to give the proverbial middle finger to U.S. licensing entities such as CrunchyRoll. I personally have trouble figuring out the thinking behind wanting to give a legitimate licensing entity the proverbial middle finger (it would be unheard of over a decade ago, around when I first began fansubbing/scanslation). I've read the blogs and forum posts on the rationale behind the proverbial middle finger to licensing entities, and personally, none of them make any sense. You probably noticed until very recently, our older series have mostly not been of interest to U.S. licensing entities. There is a reason why I used "quotes" around the word "fansubbers". I think the folks here are smart enough to know why. I think if you want something in summary, the anime fans' attitude towards older anime have to do with human nature. The best we can do is to show the good side of older anime and promote it in a positive aspect. |
| - doll_licca Founder and encoder of Licca Fansubs |
| I'm no real fansubber but I think I can definitely see licca's point there, kind of easy to tell with the attitude of some groups out there. Luckily I don't care about them personally, but when groups like licca and other old fansubbers show a bit more heart and care in their work it's a lot more enjoyable to follow and all. I always feel like history is being made when old groups finish unsubbed shows, it means a lot to me and I hope the fansubbers get that kind of love back in return for their work. As for the issue I think this is just something you see everywhere. But maybe it really is this current generation of teens and young adults, I was just before their time and am so happy I was born in the 80's and a 90's kid. What really gets me is when I see people mid 20's, my age, and still saying these sorts of things about old shows looking terrible or hilarious, etc. If they were a true anime fan you'd think they'd want to dig into the medium and see how things have evolved, maybe track down old shows that have remakes to compare, or start at the beginning of a huge franchise (like Gundam), but yeah I guess it doesn't always happen. Same thing happens with movies and videogames today, some people can't even go back to the PS2 era and that's just hilarious. There's always exceptions like Klonoa79H himself, it's great to see some younger people out there who can appreciate and respect the whole medium. As a general rule of thumb though, it may just be time you shut yourself out from 90% of MAL because frankly, it's a terrible place. I never touch the forums anymore or those episode discussion threads that much now and it's been for the best. So I just stick to specific clubs like this and only talk to people directly thesedays. |
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| To reply the op, it's not really fair to compare cinema and anime in this respect, like we all know the cameras used to be way more badass in the 50s than today (you can see it in shots where the foreground and the background 20 meters away are both perfectly in focus). I think the last one using cool ones was Kubrick in Barry Lyndon, even if I can understand nowadays trend for light cameras. So why is it unfair? Because it's been established from cognitive test that immersion when watching something is linked to how convincing it is, which in terms of visuals means realistic mostly. In this view, anime like Cobra are truly unimmersive as possible, or even maybe the first season of Ashita no Joe compared to the second. So you can't really blame modern viewers. That said, I also have a problem with these younger viewers, since another variable of immersion is imagination, and how it allows to flesh out abstract forms. And I'm not sure what caused it, but a lot of younger viewers seem to lack imagination, though I can guess this is what happens you when you get spoonfeed visuals with too many CG effects from birth. And granted some seem to be able to overcome it, a lot just can't pass this block, and it's probably not their fault, though it is sad that some aren't even thinking of putting in the effort, not even anime wise, but because without any kind of imagination humans are just cattle. |
EratiKDec 1, 2012 8:52 AM
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Klonoa79H said: I am very happy companies like Fantagraphics, DMP and Discotek are releasing loads of these golden oldies in English, yet they don't get high sales which depresses me, yet people will still go for NARUTO VOLUME NO. 234 because "its Nawutwo, and it's mordern, and it's like teh bestist shows evar!" I am very glad people are putting out stuff like Heart of Thomas, several Tezuka works, and retro anime like Lupin III and Fist of the North Star. to go completely off topic, I went to a convention here and I would say literally 75% of all cosplay was Naruto. I didn't see even ONE Gundam cosplay (not even of the Gundams I dislike ;) ) - the only cosplay I saw that I could vaguely relate to was Kamina from TTGL, [/oldman rant] :p |
| I see I doll_licca said: I think if you want something in summary, the anime fans' attitude towards older anime have to do with human nature. The best we can do is to show the good side of older anime and promote it in a positive aspect. Ah I see, I never thought of the what gets fansubbed quickly element being an influence on this, but it obviously is... And yeah I don't know why people would so aggressively fansub 'unsafe' stuff. Then again I must admit I was straight on the fansub of those few minutes of Rebuild 3.0, hypocritical as it may be o_O |
Echelon said: Same thing happens with movies and videogames today, some people can't even go back to the PS2 era and that's just hilarious. There's always exceptions like Klonoa79H himself, it's great to see some younger people out there who can appreciate and respect the whole medium. Yeah I mean I have always been a huge DooM/Wolf3D and Quake Fan from when they came out, and when Quake III Arena came out, well actually from really early in the tests I was playing it and loved it, and you gotta remember how much of a graphics leap it was at the time, emergency drivers being brought out all over the place, people buying new PC's. But still as I looked at what was at the time the 'cutting edge' I never looked down on the older Quake/DooM games at all, and still played them regularly. In fact in the run up to the official Quake III A release date I think I played through everything again to get me even more excited haha |
EratiK said: To reply the op, it's not really fair to compare cinema and anime in this respect, like we all know the cameras used to be way more badass in the 50s than today (you can see it in shots where the foreground and the background 20 meters away are both perfectly in focus). I think the last one using cool ones was Kubrick in Barry Lyndon, even if I can understand nowadays trend for light cameras. So why is it unfair? Because it's been established from cognitive test that immersion when watching something is linked to how convincing it is, which in terms of visuals means realistic mostly. In this view, anime like Cobra are truly unimmersive as possible, or even maybe the first season of Ashita no Joe compared to the second. So you can't really blame modern viewers. That said, I also have a problem with these younger viewers, since another variable of immersion is imagination, and how it allows to flesh out abstract forms. And I'm not sure what caused it, but a lot of younger viewers seem to lack imagination, though I can guess this is what happens you when you get spoonfeed visuals with too many CG effects from birth. And granted some seem to be able to overcome it, a lot just can't pass this block, and it's probably not their fault, though it is sad that some aren't even thinking of putting in the effort, not even anime wise, but because without any kind of imagination humans are just cattle. some very good points which I am feeling too sick to accurately respond too atm (I have the flu :s) - one thing I will say is that the 'realistic' thing works both ways, in that being shown the 'unrealistic' elements of the camera lens itself have become realisms too us: shaky cam, noise, lens flares, FLAG was a good example of where at the start I was like ' ah ffs this is so clichéd putting noise and wonky DoF all over the place' but still even with me trying to prepate myself to not be 'taken in', it didn't matter within about 3 episodes there can be no douibt in my mind it was making me feel way more 'immersed'. |
Echelon said: As a general rule of thumb though, it may just be time you shut yourself out from 90% of MAL because frankly, it's a terrible place. I never touch the forums anymore or those episode discussion threads that much now and it's been for the best. So I just stick to specific clubs like this and only talk to people directly thesedays. Yeah this club does seem cool deffo and certainly in general in line with the sorta anime I like ;) |
| Older anime is my current drug. Though I don't really care what other people likes and don't likes. |
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Nidstang said: Older anime is my current drug. Though I don't really care what other people likes and don't likes. yeah that is probably the best idea. Unfortunately I'm not too good at actually putting it into practice :p |
r4ytrace said: Yes I agree, "realistic" is maybe not the best way to describe what I mean (one of those cases where a French word doesn't have an English equivalent)... I guess it's more spot on if I say "believable", but believability is something cultural and often incousciously acquired, so it's hard to question someone's visual culture (which also influences taste in general). some very good points which I am feeling too sick to accurately respond too atm (I have the flu :s) - one thing I will say is that the 'realistic' thing works both ways, in that being shown the 'unrealistic' elements of the camera lens itself have become realisms too us: shaky cam, noise, lens flares, FLAG was a good example of where at the start I was like ' ah ffs this is so clichéd putting noise and wonky DoF all over the place' but still even with me trying to prepate myself to not be 'taken in', it didn't matter within about 3 episodes there can be no douibt in my mind it was making me feel way more 'immersed'. Yet Legend of the Galactic Heroes and Rose of Versailles get new fans every year, so it's not like the situation is hopeless. Granted they are few in numbers, but with the way actual mass media work you probably can't expect more. And with sites like MAL, its database and its users' feedback, it's easier than ever to start dwelling in the old school (it's MAL who introduced me to the Yamato spaceship franchise). Long term, the old school probably wins. |
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| I also think it's rather sad that people don't look past the bad qualities of old anime and acknowledge the good parts of it. I mean, sure, the art isn't as polished as most modern anime, but a lot of time, money, effort, and heart are thrown into a lot of old anime, and I can clearly see the differences in how old and new anime are made just from watching them alone! Not many of my friends know about old anime, not even my anime club (though my anime club did screen the first episode of Rose of Versailles once. I only got to see the first 10 minutes because I had to leave early). Although not all hope is lost for old anime. A lot of them are being licensed by an ever so awesome company named Discotek Media, and they're developing quite a reputation for it. |
EratiK said: r4ytrace said: Yes I agree, "realistic" is maybe not the best way to describe what I mean (one of those cases where a French word doesn't have an English equivalent)... I guess it's more spot on if I say "believable", but believability is something cultural and often incousciously acquired, so it's hard to question someone's visual culture (which also influences taste in general). some very good points which I am feeling too sick to accurately respond too atm (I have the flu :s) - one thing I will say is that the 'realistic' thing works both ways, in that being shown the 'unrealistic' elements of the camera lens itself have become realisms too us: shaky cam, noise, lens flares, FLAG was a good example of where at the start I was like ' ah ffs this is so clichéd putting noise and wonky DoF all over the place' but still even with me trying to prepate myself to not be 'taken in', it didn't matter within about 3 episodes there can be no douibt in my mind it was making me feel way more 'immersed'. Yet Legend of the Galactic Heroes and Rose of Versailles get new fans every year, so it's not like the situation is hopeless. Granted they are few in numbers, but with the way actual mass media work you probably can't expect more. And with sites like MAL, its database and its users' feedback, it's easier than ever to start dwelling in the old school (it's MAL who introduced me to the Yamato spaceship franchise). Long term, the old school probably wins. Yeah I suppose you're right probably in the long run, the true classics of each era shall remain and the rest shall fall. I mean I suppose if you think about it, in 'live action' there are tonnes of films that did cr4p at the time and are now legendary (can't think of any right now, but I'm sure there is :p ). Yeah Yamato is incredible, stoic man tears of the captain were so epic... |
Firechick12012 said: Although not all hope is lost for old anime. A lot of them are being licensed by an ever so awesome company named Discotek Media, and they're developing quite a reputation for it. RightStuf license some amazing stuff too, including Nadesico and Loverly Angelseh ;) |
Nidstang said: Older anime is my current drug. Though I don't really care what other people likes and don't likes. Same here. I don't really care if people like them or not. The only thing that i do hate is how modern anime makes too much homage/parody on the older shows. |
| I can't call myself an "old school anime fan" as I was born in '92 and got into anime for the first time with most other fans through Pokemon, Sailor Moon, DBZ and the like from 1999-early 00's, but nor can I consider myself a new generation fan either as Naruto, Bleach and those mid-00's anime that came to America were not my first rodeo and weren't the things that cemented my love for anime, I was already a fan by the time they came out. I actually know someone who said to my face that he cannot watch old school anime because and I quote: "They're old, they're old looking. They don't need to be watched anymore." Also I used to know someone in the online community that unless it was up to par with his animation bar, which a good example would be Afro Samurai, if it wasn't up to that quality he would not watch it and that included older anime. My girlfriend and a few of her friends though they do appreciate older anime, still often time find it hard to watch because they don't like the rough art style older anime have. These are all things I have heard and I can't help but wonder how most people can sometimes think like this. Now, granted, when it comes to not liking art style everyone has their own taste so you can't often just get onto them for that, but to sit there and say that old anime shouldn't be watched anymore because they're old or look old is basically wrong in my opinion. It's too limiting and shows the sort of naivety that newer fans have been branded with having. Personally, on myself now, I like both new school anime and old school anime. And I will watch either, because I like a good story. And if I really like the story I will watch it, if the anime can grab me I will watch it, new or old. And lately I've been on an older anime kick instead of watching anything new and I'm okay with this. It let's me be much more appreciative of the anime that made what we have today possible and there are still a lot of gems in older anime. I think that okay, you may not want to watch new or old anime, but you should have an appreciation for both. Because regardless of crap or good anime, new or old anime, at least anime is still alive and there are fans for anime and we should always want that. But I do think as fans we should command for our anime to be quality story, new or old. Quality story with thought and heart and hard work put into them. |
| "Live a good life, leave behind a legacy to be proud of." I review anime! (via TrashMutant.com): Aldnoah.Zero: http://tinyurl.com/ly6oyr6; Sword Art Online: http://tinyurl.com/mzpks8t; Patema Inverted: http://tinyurl.com/kphmu7t I also now review manga! (via Bagandbored.net): Chirality - To the Promised Land: http://tinyurl.com/mvblbuo |
EratiK said: So why is it unfair? Because it's been established from cognitive test that immersion when watching something is linked to how convincing it is, which in terms of visuals means realistic mostly. Couldn't disagree more (at least with the last part). From my experience I tend to enjoy and immerse myself into the world more if it's not realistic. That applies to games (for example I consider Falout 1 and 2 as way better than shitty Fallout 3 - despite archaic graphics, or Planescape Torment being leagues above faggish Mass Effect), movies (for example Jungle Book (1942) is way better than 1994 or 1998 version even though it has rubber snakes and alligators and Robin Hood (1938) is better than Costner version in EVERY way, including visuals) anime (e.g. I found the old version of Cobra way more enjoyable and imagination-inspiring than the new attempts and I consider SPT Layzner as the best post-apocalyptic anime ever), etc. This applies to practically everything. There is a good reason why theatre is still present and considered by many as better experience than even the best movie can give (despite the fact you have cheesy scenography or costumes). Anyway, my point is, photorealistic graphics kills the imagination process and immersion. 3D is great and all but it can't compete with my imagination. That's why book adaptations can never live up to the source. As for anime examples, the recent one is new Berserk movie. Sure, the characters move more realistically and it has more detailed graphics and yet I don't like the visuals in it. I much more prefer TV series version (including the visuals). The moment anime will be done in such technique I will stop watching it (at least new ones). |
goralDec 25, 2012 2:13 AM
| I disagree too. One of my favorite anime episodes of all times is the Gunbuster finale and that is entirely black and white. Not to say, I've seen some 3DGCI techniques used to my liking. Especially in games it can look even better than in anime. But it still never, ever matches up to something like Macross DYRL, GitS 1995 and older Ghibli which I consider to be close to my ideal. There are some good things about newer anime too, but too often I seem to find it too sterile to my liking. |
| @ mecharobot and goral You're both right, I've worded this quite badly. Let's say there are two kinds of immersion, a perceptive one, and an emotional one. While I agree emotional immersion is also stronger in my case with anime with a more drawn-feel (and a stronger activity from the imagination), people who aren't trained to do this activity are more likely get an emotional response from something closer to their everyday cognition, ie the realistic depiction. Also, my statement shouldn't be extracted from its context: it was only there to say why it's unfair to compare old cinema with old anime. It's because except for the color matter, old and new cinema are essentially the same thing. But modern anime is generally more realistic (backgrounds, rendering) than old school anime, and I can understand people relating to that. Like you can see Aubrey Beardsley's influence in Clamp works, but when you compare the two, Beardsley feels dated, and it's hard to find his characters beautiful anymore, and even more to connect to them emotionally. |
EratiKJun 1, 2013 10:09 AM
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EratiK said: Let's stay on topic Nidstang. Sorry. |
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r4ytrace said: It seems that for a lot of these fans, unless it's got super clean (digitally) created fills and ultra solid lines, they literally WILL NOT WATCH. Which is a terrible shame as obviously it rules out a whole lot of anime which I love, and it kinda depresses me that so many people will ignore it without trying it properly. I agree with you OP. Digital and CG animation is everything what's WRONG about modern anime. Not to mention studios these days over-rely on same cookie-cutter and generic character designs and templates. Anyway. I prefer physcial hand-drawn and painted cels. r4ytrace said: but I don't think I'd ever get the same aesthetic pleasure from modern anime as from masterpieces such as this: http://r4ytrace.tumblr.com/tagged/gunbuster Good to see another Gunbuster fan here. It's an Epic sci-fi anime and I really like Haruhiko Mikimoto's design. He was a great animator and character designer in the 80s/90s and I also like his Eve design from Megazone 23. |
| I will admit, right now I'm watching Majestic Prince and I like it, also Valvrave entertains me, and of course Attack On Titan is brilliant, but after watching episodes of them - I put on some Space Adventure Cobra and they just don't compare - that feeling classic anime can give you from the second the OP music starts. |
| "Uh mah gah uld animu looks like shite brav! Nawutoe and Bleach look better than GunBuster and Patlabor!" Ha. HA. HA. BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18zbb9vya67nljpg/ku-xlarge.jpg Yeah. http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18zbbn1hwelqgjpg/ku-medium.jpg Right. lol. |
r4ytrace said: I will admit, right now I'm watching Majestic Prince and I like it, also Valvrave entertains me, and of course Attack On Titan is brilliant, but after watching episodes of them - I put on some Space Adventure Cobra and they just don't compare - that feeling classic anime can give you from the second the OP music starts. Comparing Cobra to Majestic Prince and Valvrave... so brutal! |
Kellhus said: Comparing Cobra to Majestic Prince and Valvrave... so brutal! I suppose it is a bit unfair recently I've been going through my Zeta rewatch, enjoying it even more this time. Also watching the few extant episodes of: http://myanimelist.net/anime/5997/Sabu_to_Ichi_Torimono_Hikae well I've only watched one so far - really really liked it. I'm also finally watching Hokuto No Ken and it is one of the most enjoyable things I've ever seen, amazing OP too (and ED actually). |
r4ytrace said: While I am not trying to start a flame war, and I'll admit to being a grumpy old man who usually prefers things from 'my era', which does shape my opinions on anime undoubtedly. I don't think I'm being unreasonable in what I'm about to say. A lot of the time when I'm watching older anime and using MAL to log it, I avoid clicking 'discuss it' because it depresses me the attitude some fans of (I presume only 'modern') anime have, the amount of times I've gone to discuss the first episode of something classic and someone goes - 'Too old, art is hilarious, can't watch...' is ridiculous. I've never heard anyone seriously go - 'Citizen Kane ? Black and white man, not watching...' etc., or 'Elvis ? That's mono, ain't no way I'm listening to that...' It's like they don't actually appreciate/value the artistic merit of anime or something, because although in other mediums obv there's always a slight element of 'newer is good' people don't usually straight away go 'old = cr4p'. Do you guys reckon this attitude is more prevalent in anime than other mediums? I kinda reckon it is. It seems that for a lot of these fans, unless it's got super clean (digitally) created fills and ultra solid lines, they literally WILL NOT WATCH. Which is a terrible shame as obviously it rules out a whole lot of anime which I love, and it kinda depresses me that so many people will ignore it without trying it properly. Hey r4ytrace, I'm new in MAL and just joined this club (glad I found it). I completely empathize with you. I grew up on Robotech & Star Blazers (was personal friends with the late Carl Macek). Yet, there are so many kids out there who don't know a lot of the old stuff. Not going to say that everything back then was great, however, as there was a lot of crap, just like there is today. And while the animation today is really good, I'd match Megazone 23, Part II to just about anything out there. That being said, I have gotten into a lot of new series, primarily thanks to my kids, who got me back into anime. But it does bug me a bit how some of the old-school is sometimes dismissed out of hand. |
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| In an Anime group page on Facebook, one of those younger fans replied to a pic of someones old school collection, saying "old animation is old" and I replied "No shit Sherlock." |
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kirAth-shiAue said: In an Anime group page on Facebook, one of those younger fans replied to a pic of someones old school collection, saying "old animation is old" and I replied "No shit Sherlock." you sure told him Anyways, getting on topic here. If you can't watch old anime because of the animation, then srsly dood. I'm trying not to be biased against one era, but I found myself liking the art in older anime, then I do in newer anime. That's not to say I dislike modern anime. In fact, I love modern anime. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that both styles of anime kick ass. also old animu elitist are more annoying than the modern animoe elitists |
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| Our comments got deleted though. :P Now every time someone posts something like "Did you see the latest episode of Sword Art Online(on Toonami)?" I'll reply "Nope, too busy watching Legend of the Galactic Heroes" and they'll reply something like "You dropped your hipster glasses." I love modern anime too(though I can't stand Moe), but there's something special about the classics. |
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| It goes both ways. |
     Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
elkensteyin said: Hey r4ytrace, I'm new in MAL and just joined this club (glad I found it). I completely empathize with you. I grew up on Robotech & Star Blazers (was personal friends with the late Carl Macek). Yet, there are so many kids out there who don't know a lot of the old stuff. Not going to say that everything back then was great, however, as there was a lot of crap, just like there is today. And while the animation today is really good, I'd match Megazone 23, Part II to just about anything out there. That being said, I have gotten into a lot of new series, primarily thanks to my kids, who got me back into anime. But it does bug me a bit how some of the old-school is sometimes dismissed out of hand. Hi, yeah it's not really what they say about old anime that I find ridiculous, it's the fact that a lot of them just REFUSE to watch it at all, I watch actually quite a bit of modern anime, and even though it REALLY is tempting to just go 'blllarrgh i hate all this clean filled modern moe blob crap', I don't and regularly try to find if there are things in a season which I will watch. |
Comandante said: That's why you'll see reviews on this site claiming that the animation of a work is "Not bad for an old show", when the work in question may in fact superior to the contemporary ones in terms of animation. Yes I can't remember where I saw it recently but someone said that Venus Wars art was 'acceptable' or somesuch for 'old anime', whereas, while I will accept when some people say it's not the best story or character wise (though for the record I love it entirely), I don't think there can be any denying that every frame of Venus Wars jumps off the screen with sheer artistic joy. No shortcuts taken either, plenty of the very difficult 'first person viewpoint' stuff too. |
| It's a sad that most of the people new to anime usually dont watch older anime and they discard them as "trash" or "too ugly" etc. Funny thing is, when I usually ask what those people consider to be old, its mostly stuff before 2005 and in some cases even 2008 which is ridiculous. For me, an old anime is such anime thats older than me, so before 1989. And there are plenty of great anime from 70's and 80's which no one give a damn about nowadays. All discussions are full of spam about which anime is best this season, hatefull posts everywhere. I rarely find constructive discussions which is kinda sad. I remember those times 10 years ago and even before when we were actually discussion anime in friendly manner without all that hate I see lately. Anyway I like both, old and new anime but its much harder nowadays to find someone to chat with about older anime. I'm always happy when I find someone who likes older anime or at least someone who watch anime for many years and seen all those older classics and jewels which are slowly becoming forgotten. One great example was discussion I had recently with few people about favorite incest anime and everyone was talking about OreImo, yosuga no sora etc and when I said Koi Kaze, all I got was posts like "never heard about it" or "ugly art, wont watch" etc.. I was really sad because its superior to any newer incest or wannabe incest anime yet no one cares. And that was when I realized I have almost nothing to talk about with those people. It just saddens me when I open someone's profile and there are only recent anime and his or her favourite anime page is filled with series not older than 2 or 3 years. |
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| I know, right? A lot of people I talk to about old anime claim the art is ugly or old stuff always have overacting or melodrama, when that's not the case, especially with World Masterpiece Theater anime (especially ones like Dog of Flanders or My Annette). Heck, I think most modern anime have a lot of melodramatic overacting! I do like some new anime though. Two modern anime are in my top 3! And yes, there's too much hate wars around here. I do have someone I can talk to about old anime even though we're far apart from each other. |
| Koi Kaze is a good watch, but I'm not really sure if I'd really want to bring something like that up when discussing more core audience stuff. It might share a superficial element with other shows, but when it comes down to it, it's a rare kind of drama anime that you are supposed to watch with a very different kind of mindset. |
Comandante said: One thing that I'll never understand is how people, unused to older shows, reviews an older show and comment on its "dated character designs". How is that even possible? Such a remark is always done from two equally absurd premises: 1. A work can "age", progressively becoming worse after its initial airing. Just imagine which effects this premise would have if it was applied to litterature or visual arts. 2. Designs progressively get better. This would mean that the mangaka of olden days actually tried to accomplish the present-day designs, but failed due to primitive equipment and drawing techniques. exactly my sentiments on the matter |
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