DO NOT discuss the source material beyond this episode. If you want to discuss future events or theories, please use separate threads.
DO NOT ask where to watch/download this episode or give links to copyrighted, non-fair use material.
DO NOT troll/bait/harass/abuse other users for liking or disliking the series/characters.
DO read the Anime Discussion Rules and Site & Forum Guidelines.
DO NOT ask where to watch/download this episode or give links to copyrighted, non-fair use material.
DO NOT troll/bait/harass/abuse other users for liking or disliking the series/characters.
DO read the Anime Discussion Rules and Site & Forum Guidelines.
| What previous fight? Berserker with shitty supply of mana>Saber with good supply of mana.It was pretty evident in the story(and even Lancelot's skill proves that). |
ssjokg said: What previous fight? Berserker with shitty supply of mana>Saber with good supply of mana.It was pretty evident in the story(and even Lancelot's skill proves that). scene not fight Saber with low mana > Berserker with no mana. |
 |
Fai said: ssjokg said: What previous fight? Berserker with shitty supply of mana>Saber with good supply of mana.It was pretty evident in the story(and even Lancelot's skill proves that). scene not fight Saber with low mana > Berserker with no mana. You should decide already. Will I get a warning if I call you a smartass? |
| Ah man, now I'm confused. |
 |
| Re-watching F/Z made me appreciate it a lot more than watching it the first time, especially the second season. I already loved this series, but holy shit, it's so fucking good. I raised my score for S2 from a 9 to a 10 and moved it up one spot in my top favorites list. Might raise S1 from an 8 to a 9 too. So good. It's too bad anime of this quality are so extremely rare. |
 |
TG82 said: The only way to argue against this, is by saying that the Grail is evil/corrupted and does what it wants. Which is unfair - it was assumed that the grail was an object, impartial to all sides, that grants wishes, throughout most of the entire zero series. You can't just pull out the carpet from under the viewers like that. Yeah, as you said, it was assumed by the Masters of this war that the Holy Grail was impartial, however, in Fate/stay night is clearly stated that the Grail is indeed corrupted. Zero relies on this since it assumes you have previously read Fate/stay night. That's why is a prequel and not a stand-alone show. If I'm being rude, sorry about that, but this it's been said a lot of times. |
TG82 said: Fai said: Kerry then got revived via Avalon. Did Iri not state that Avalon only works in the relative presence of Saber, and when Saber used Excalibur to destroy the grail, she killed herself as well? So no Saber = no healing? Oh and Kirei was not alive. Kerry shot and killed him. Kerry was the last one alive until he was killed by Excalibur. The grail only grants one wish. Yet, let's see what it did: revived Kirei, revived Gilgamesh, and leveled the city. 1 = 3? Saber was "killed" because she run out of mana.She has a tendency to die because of that. No, Avalon works all the time but being close to Saber makes it even more effective if you arent the Master or else Iri would have been killed by Kirei back at season 1. Kiritsugu used Avalon on Shirou with the last mana it had inside it and then took him to a hospital.Avalon didnt exactly heal him just kept him alive. What do you mean he was killed by Excalibur? The grail didnt even grant ANY wish, if it had then the FSN scenario wouldnt exist along with the world of FZ.Gilgamesh was "granted" a human body due to Avenger fucking up and acknowledging Gil's existence.Kirei was revived because he was still connected with the now almost human Gil.It has nothing to do with wishes.The city was destroyed because Kiritsugu failed to destroy the contents of the grail(hole in the sky).The destruction had nothing to do with a wish. And what JustShiki said. It isnt FZ's fault that nobody listens to VN readers and insist that there is no problem with watching FZ first. |
ssjokgMay 15, 2014 11:15 PM
TG82 said: Did Iri not state that Avalon only works in the relative presence of Saber, and when Saber used Excalibur to destroy the grail, she killed herself as well? So no Saber = no healing? There are TWO different things avalon does. One is the "passive" regeneration that slowly repairs you from even most critical of wounds. That's why King Arthur looks like 20 year old girl The OTHER thing that Iri talks about is the "active" ability That places user in separate dimension, protecting him from all and any attacks. This form of Avalon is stated to be able to survive any and every attack, no matter its power, including all five of True Magics(read: reality warping). At the same time it also rejuvenates user completely, no matter the damage. User could be dead, user could be in shreds - does not matter. It is something that defies reality to restore user to the state he was when he obtained the sheath. That is the ability Saber is needed for actively since Saber is only one who has access to that realm, it being the place where she will go to die in the myths. Oh and Kirei was not alive. Kerry shot and killed him. Kerry was the last one alive until he was killed by Excalibur. Yeah, ssjokg expanded upon it already The grail only grants one wish. Yet, let's see what it did: revived Kirei, revived Gilgamesh, and leveled the city. 1 = 3? Kirei's revival was a unconscious action on Grail's part(either due to Gil's fuck you to it or due to Iri's last Intent being connected to not dying, don't remember). If the true wish were to be granted, All Evils Of THe Would would already have been born, but that was interrupted by Kerry destroying the lower grail. Leveling city had more to do with Kerry's actions conjoined with Grail's intent. than wishing. The only way to argue against this, is by saying that the Grail is evil/corrupted and does what it wants. Which is unfair - it was assumed that the grail was an object, impartial to all sides, that grants wishes, throughout most of the entire zero series. You can't just pull out the carpet from under the viewers like that. It was ASSUMED(that having to do with the fact that pretty much no one survives Grail wars, since none succeeded till now and they are set enough years apart to be in different generations). But at the point one is presented this as narrative, the viewer already knows it is not. The viewer already knows that the whole conflict is futile and the people are dying for absolutely nothing. The big reveal happens in the fictional work this is intended to be a prequel to. In this though there should have been a scene where Zouken speculates about something being wrong with the grai ( ssjokg said: No, Avalon works all the time but being close to Saber makes it even more effective if you arent the Master or else Iri would have been killed by Kirei back at season 1. Kiritsugu used Avalon on Shirou with the last mana it had inside it and then took him t Not exactly. Avalon goes "innactive" after Grail and Saber disappears. |
AhenshihaelMay 16, 2014 12:01 AM
|
Fai said: I am only talking about the time Kiritsugu used it to save Shirou.Not exactly. Avalon goes "innactive" after Grail and Saber disappears. You said the same thing some lines above in the same post... |
ssjokg said: Nightwire said: Just finished this at last. Sad to say I didn't enjoy it as much as a lot of shows I've watched. The level of cruelty was massively over the top (and it's made worse by the fact that I read up on Kirei's 'servant contracts' that involve children). Even in the end, this show gives almost no respite. The show left a bitter taste that I won't soon miss. However, it was quite good. It made me think a lot, the animation was great, and I really enjoyed some of the characters. Overall, I give it an 8/10. Very tempted to give it a 9, but most anime I've watched leave me wishing it wasn't over, sometimes for a very long time. I'm literally quite happy to be done with this show >_>. That alone warrants a point deduction for me. Not this shit again. Especially with FMA in your favs... This was a really long ass time ago, but I feel like replying anyway. FMA wasn't nearly as bad as Fate/Zero. Not even close. No little girls were raped by millions of worms for years, no children were crucified for amusement, none were kept in a basement and used as an energy source for...forever afaik. Really, you can't use FMA to say that I can't call Fate/Zero needlessly cruel. The worst thing I recall from FMA was Nina, and perhaps the general thought of what Gluttony does to people as often as he gets the chance. Both of those scenarios are at least quick(ish..) deaths. I'm sure there were some other things, but none quite as bad as what goes on in F/Z. Not that any of this actually matters. FMA is in my favorites because it was good enough to be worth whatever issues I had with it. Fate really wasn't. Most unsatisfying conclusion I've ever seen. Nice buildup, but the ending just served to piss me off, essentially. |
| So lets ignore that a father fused his daughter and dog because it was quick.....ok. Was it necessary for the plot?Yes.Same for FZ's.All this "over the top" cruelsome scenes mattered to the plot.Complaining about cruelty in a series where everyone wants to kill each other is crazy. Not FZ's fault that nobody seems to understand that this is a prequel. |
ssjokg said: So lets ignore that a father fused his daughter and dog because it was quick.....ok. Was it necessary for the plot?Yes.Same for FZ's.All this "over the top" cruelsome scenes mattered to the plot.Complaining about cruelty in a series where everyone wants to kill each other is crazy. Not FZ's fault that nobody seems to understand that this is a prequel. I never said to ignore Nina's situation at all - I brought it up. I'm also not saying that the events of Fate/Zero don't serve the plot, to an extent. What I am saying is that in FMA, it wasn't as ridiculous. I hate to reiterate, but we're talking about years of child gang rape by worms, child crucifixion (among other things), and child batteries stored in a basement, where they are left to rot after they have served their use (though this last one occurs after the events of the anime). I've had this argument in the past, but it never ceases to amaze me how anyone can say with any amount of seriousness that these things aren't a bit extreme. I'm not saying the show needs to be protested and removed from society, I'm just saying that the cruelty goes way beyond what I can possibly imagine was really necessary. It was gratuitous, and detracted from my enjoyment of the show. The creator of the series isn't known as Urobutcher for no reason, and he seems to have a vendetta against kids in general (see: Madoka (which I just finished about a half hour ago and didn't find it nearly as bad as I expected to)). FMA knew when to use cruel moments to show a harsh reality, but also when to cut that **** out and give the viewers some respite. Also, it being a prequel is irrelevant, as is the fact that 'everyone is trying to kill each other'. None of the cruelty I've described was against anyone that was trying to kill anyone, nevermind the fact that most of the killing intent was directed at already dead spirits, active serial killers, and at least 1 person that wasn't even human to begin with. In any case, it isn't as if I didn't give Fate/Zero a fair rating. It was good most of the time. |
| Why is it that being a prequel is irrelevant?The ending is exactly what I should be in order to match the first series.Urobuchi didnt write it alone.The only thing he wrote alone was Caster's scenes and they are as bad as Kirei's actions in FSN. It doesnt mater at who is the cruelty directed at.You are watching a series where almost everyone has the intention to kill others, some in the most brutal ways possible.Over the top cruelty shouldnt surprise anyone. At least it isnt Battle Royale where regular highschool students just transform into the world's most vicious serial killers for no real reason(background). |
ssjokg said: Why is it that being a prequel is irrelevant?The ending is exactly what I should be in order to match the first series.Urobuchi didnt write it alone.The only thing he wrote alone was Caster's scenes and they are as bad as Kirei's actions in FSN. It doesnt mater at who is the cruelty directed at.You are watching a series where almost everyone has the intention to kill others, some in the most brutal ways possible.Over the top cruelty shouldnt surprise anyone. At least it isnt Battle Royale where regular highschool students just transform into the world's most vicious serial killers for no real reason(background). Oh, the only thing that Urobutcher wrote alone were the scenes of child torture. That makes even more sense, actually. Thanks for letting me know. In any case, you don't seem to comprehend the nature of what I'm saying at all. Killing people is not the issue. Everything I've said has had to do with a level of cruelty towards nameless characters. Torture of tons of small children. Brutaility towards the main characters - people that signed up for a supernatural death match - was tame in most cases. It's as simple as that. Maybe you just don't actually know what I'm talking about if you didn't see any uncensored scenes, or check any information on the wiki when you finished the series. I don't think most of the things I'm talking about were shown overtly if you didn't. Check here: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=406817 Or just check episode 6 and 9 uncensored, or caster's introduction. If you can look at any of these things and call them comparable to the things that happened to the main characters, or don't believe that any of this was over the top and really wasn't absolutely necessary to the plot of the show, then I have nothing more to say on the matter. It just means you're extremely desensitized, and that seems to be the standard for a lot of people these days. I have no interest in joining you in shrugging off scenes like that. Having read some youtube comments on at least one of these, some people actually love everything about caster and these scenes. I call that being highly disturbed. To address what you've said about it being a prequel - that's fine. If you're referring to my earlier comment about the ending being unsatisfying, then that makes sense. However, I don't see what Darker than Black has to do with anything. Aside from it being completely unrelated, you yet again equate killing with torture. They really are rather different. People beg for death when they're tortured. |
Nightwire said: ssjokg said: Why is it that being a prequel is irrelevant?The ending is exactly what I should be in order to match the first series.Urobuchi didnt write it alone.The only thing he wrote alone was Caster's scenes and they are as bad as Kirei's actions in FSN. It doesnt mater at who is the cruelty directed at.You are watching a series where almost everyone has the intention to kill others, some in the most brutal ways possible.Over the top cruelty shouldnt surprise anyone. At least it isnt Battle Royale where regular highschool students just transform into the world's most vicious serial killers for no real reason(background). Oh, the only thing that Urobutcher wrote alone were the scenes of child torture. That makes even more sense, actually. Thanks for letting me know. In any case, you don't seem to comprehend the nature of what I'm saying at all. Killing people is not the issue. Everything I've said has had to do with a level of cruelty towards nameless characters. Torture of tons of small children. Brutaility towards the main characters - people that signed up for a supernatural death match - was tame in most cases. It's as simple as that. Maybe you just don't actually know what I'm talking about if you didn't see any uncensored scenes, or check any information on the wiki when you finished the series. I don't think most of the things I'm talking about were shown overtly if you didn't. Check here: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=406817 Or just check episode 6 and 9 uncensored, or caster's introduction. If you can look at any of these things and call them comparable to the things that happened to the main characters, or don't believe that any of this was over the top and really wasn't absolutely necessary to the plot of the show, then I have nothing more to say on the matter. It just means you're extremely desensitized, and that seems to be the standard for a lot of people these days. I have no interest in joining you in shrugging off scenes like that. Having read some youtube comments on at least one of these, some people actually love everything about caster and these scenes. I call that being highly disturbed. To address what you've said about it being a prequel - that's fine. If you're referring to my earlier comment about the ending being unsatisfying, then that makes sense. However, I don't see what Darker than Black has to do with anything. Aside from it being completely unrelated, you yet again equate killing with torture. They really are rather different. People beg for death when they're tortured. You dont have to show me the uncen pics or even the manga pages, the LN goes in depth with what he does so you are actually lacking in content.... You dont seem to to comprehend the nature of what I'm saying either.Those are people that dont care if they kill for their personal gain.It isnt "justified" killing, you can never justify it.They are still cold blood murderers.And yes torturing those nameless children is important to show the personality of those two characters.They are crazy, evil, psychopaths for their reasons.Caster even has a "real" historical background filled with those actions.Why would the (almost) same character act differently or why should the series not show those scenes, especially when they achieved what they aimed for?Make the viewers hate the actions of those characters. Desensitized?Because I see nothing bad with having over the top cruelty in a series, justified both by the characters and the plot?(Unlike my previous example) Yes there are fucked up people out there that love those scenes.There are also those that think that they make anime (or anything)more mature.And then there are the trolls. I have seen people here that say that Matou Shinji(Sakura's step brother in FSN,doesnt appear in FZ) is better as a character, should be liked more by the heroines and that he has reasons for his actions.What is so bad about it?Well read here http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Shinji_Matou Were they trolls or some shitheads that should be locked in a cage I dont know. Darker than Black?Yes DtB is completely unrelated.But I didnt talk about it. Both killing and torture take away basic human rights.It's just what you personally see as worse because of experience(honestly I dont think you,me and the vast majority here(pretty sure all) have that) or what you have seen in other anime, movies, series etc. Both are extremely bad(if you have morals) and taking one of them lightly isnt right. |
ssjokgMay 17, 2014 10:59 PM
| Don't you mean that by losing Kirei won? Kirei didn't hate Kiritsugu. He thought that he was like him and hoped he would find some meaning if he met/fought him. During the dream he realized that he wasn't the same. |
ssjokg said: Don't you mean that by losing Kirei won? Kirei didn't hate Kiritsugu. He thought that he was like him and hoped he would find some meaning if he met/fought him. During the dream he realized that he wasn't the same. Kirei did not "win". "Winning" would mean finding out someone like him and reason for him to exist. The realization that that will NEVER happen is exactly what losing is in this case. Not to mention the fact that Thus in the end, there's no "winners" in this war. Every single decision leads to a loss, unless you chose not to play (what Waver did) |
|
| Between the two, Kirei got most "rewards" in the war so yeah he won. And with the exception of UBW he was kinda satisfied with the outcomes. |
ssjokg said: Between the two, Kirei got most "rewards" in the war so yeah he won. And with the exception of UBW he was kinda satisfied with the outcomes. It's more like he was the one that got screwed over the least between the two. I don't think anyone besides Waver can actually claim they were rewarded in this war. |
|
Botato said: That's why I limit it between Kiritsugu and Kirei.ssjokg said: Between the two, Kirei got most "rewards" in the war so yeah he won. And with the exception of UBW he was kinda satisfied with the outcomes. It's more like he was the one that got screwed over the least between the two. I don't think anyone besides Waver can actually claim they were rewarded in this war. Waver got more than he hoped for. |
ssjokgMay 19, 2014 10:50 AM
Botato said: ssjokg said: Between the two, Kirei got most "rewards" in the war so yeah he won. And with the exception of UBW he was kinda satisfied with the outcomes. It's more like he was the one that got screwed over the least between the two. I don't think anyone besides Waver can actually claim they were rewarded in this war. ^this is correct. Just because Kirei found all the outcomes he suffers from this amusing, does not mean he did not lose. Holy Grail took away the chance he had to become a mapo chef. |
|
souledge94 said: Great series loved every minute of it.Now its time to wait for a year or two for the remake of FSN to be dubbed.I heard it was going to be original material but then I heard that was a mistranslation.So I wonder if its going to be the saber route. Why wait? Jump on the hype train o.o |
|
souledge94 said: Wow talk about things going to crap magma everywhere.Oh man poor kariya what a sad and tragic end.All he wanted to do was save a girl from a horrible life.Hey there naked gil.At least waver got a happy ending.Your late father would be pleased(hehe I killed him).Hey look Aoi is still the same usless but she has a chair now.Im sure giving you this dagger will no way come back to bite me in the butt.....no way at all.So we kinda got a loose explnation of why berserker was fighting.Oh these guys suck they wont let him see his kid.I know things didint turn out as planned but still come on. Great series loved every minute of it.Now its time to wait for a year or two for the remake of FSN to be dubbed.I heard it was going to be original material but then I heard that was a mistranslation.So I wonder if its going to be the saber route. The bolded part is obviously not true. From the beginning, he wanted more than that. |
C-Core said: souledge94 said: Wow talk about things going to crap magma everywhere.Oh man poor kariya what a sad and tragic end.All he wanted to do was save a girl from a horrible life.Hey there naked gil.At least waver got a happy ending.Your late father would be pleased(hehe I killed him).Hey look Aoi is still the same usless but she has a chair now.Im sure giving you this dagger will no way come back to bite me in the butt.....no way at all.So we kinda got a loose explnation of why berserker was fighting.Oh these guys suck they wont let him see his kid.I know things didint turn out as planned but still come on. Great series loved every minute of it.Now its time to wait for a year or two for the remake of FSN to be dubbed.I heard it was going to be original material but then I heard that was a mistranslation.So I wonder if its going to be the saber route. The bolded part is obviously not true. From the beginning, he wanted more than that. ^ This. Aoi had quite a lot to do with Kariya's motivations. Kariya's inherent hatred towards Tokiomi too. |
|
souledge94 said: Botato said: souledge94 said: Great series loved every minute of it.Now its time to wait for a year or two for the remake of FSN to be dubbed.I heard it was going to be original material but then I heard that was a mistranslation.So I wonder if its going to be the saber route. Why wait? Jump on the hype train o.o I dont really watch subs.I like watching my anime dubbed. I am in the dubs>subs camp, but I find following seasonal anime to be a really enjoyable experience. Not to intrude or anything, but if you never watched subs I suggest you try them once because some anime you might really like never get dubbed. (Example for me would be Gosick) |
|
souledge94 said: C-Core said: souledge94 said: Wow talk about things going to crap magma everywhere.Oh man poor kariya what a sad and tragic end.All he wanted to do was save a girl from a horrible life.Hey there naked gil.At least waver got a happy ending.Your late father would be pleased(hehe I killed him).Hey look Aoi is still the same usless but she has a chair now.Im sure giving you this dagger will no way come back to bite me in the butt.....no way at all.So we kinda got a loose explnation of why berserker was fighting.Oh these guys suck they wont let him see his kid.I know things didint turn out as planned but still come on. Great series loved every minute of it.Now its time to wait for a year or two for the remake of FSN to be dubbed.I heard it was going to be original material but then I heard that was a mistranslation.So I wonder if its going to be the saber route. The bolded part is obviously not true. From the beginning, he wanted more than that. Well yea but that was his main goal.of course he wished for more and what he wished for wasint bad or anything.Doesint make this end any less tragic or sad. I'm sure you noticed that staying hidden and trying to avoid most conflicts, instead of letting Berserker go berserk against Archer and trying desperately to murder Tokiomi, would have been much smarter and would have helped Kariya's goals to win the Grail and save Sakura more. Then again, his mind was already screwed by the worms for a whole year at this time, so this is kind of a redundant point. The end was sad and tragic perhaps, but that depends. While wishing for the happiness of the people he loved is pretty selfless and noble, how he meant to achieve that was not. What really is perhaps tragic is that neither Aoi nor Tokiomi were able to understand Kariya's intentions, just as Kariya didn't understand Aoi or Tokiomi's feelings. Most conflicts in Fate/Zero could have been solved simply by talking. That is why Rider and Waver's relationship was the most stable and trusting one... besides Uryuu and Caster's one perhaps. |
| The LN clearly says that if not for the worms and how he had deteriorated,he would have figured out that Kirei was messing with him. So yeah ....fuck you Zouken. Uryuu and Caster are probably the best pair in any war ever. |
C-Core said: Most conflicts in Fate/Zero could have been solved simply by talking. That is why Rider and Waver's relationship was the most stable and trusting one... besides Uryuu and Caster's one perhaps. This is true. Fourth War was basically one huge pile of misunderstandings between people who had no idea just into what they got themselves into. Sadly the only one who tried talking in this war was a centuries old tyrant who almost conquered the world and employed torture. These people needed Nero. |
|
souledge94 said: C-Core said: souledge94 said: C-Core said: souledge94 said: Wow talk about things going to crap magma everywhere.Oh man poor kariya what a sad and tragic end.All he wanted to do was save a girl from a horrible life.Hey there naked gil.At least waver got a happy ending.Your late father would be pleased(hehe I killed him).Hey look Aoi is still the same usless but she has a chair now.Im sure giving you this dagger will no way come back to bite me in the butt.....no way at all.So we kinda got a loose explnation of why berserker was fighting.Oh these guys suck they wont let him see his kid.I know things didint turn out as planned but still come on. Great series loved every minute of it.Now its time to wait for a year or two for the remake of FSN to be dubbed.I heard it was going to be original material but then I heard that was a mistranslation.So I wonder if its going to be the saber route. The bolded part is obviously not true. From the beginning, he wanted more than that. Well yea but that was his main goal.of course he wished for more and what he wished for wasint bad or anything.Doesint make this end any less tragic or sad. I'm sure you noticed that staying hidden and trying to avoid most conflicts, instead of letting Berserker go berserk against Archer and trying desperately to murder Tokiomi, would have been much smarter and would have helped Kariya's goals to win the Grail and save Sakura more. Then again, his mind was already screwed by the worms for a whole year at this time, so this is kind of a redundant point. The end was sad and tragic perhaps, but that depends. While wishing for the happiness of the people he loved is pretty selfless and noble, how he meant to achieve that was not. What really is perhaps tragic is that neither Aoi nor Tokiomi were able to understand Kariya's intentions, just as Kariya didn't understand Aoi or Tokiomi's feelings. Most conflicts in Fate/Zero could have been solved simply by talking. That is why Rider and Waver's relationship was the most stable and trusting one... besides Uryuu and Caster's one perhaps. I saw nothing wrong how he meant to achive those goals.Only unnoble thing you can proboly say was he intention of killing tokiomi though since hes a crap father and a prick I still sense nothing wrong with it.His team up with kiirei wasint really wrong at least to him since at that point I believe he didint know kirei was mr bad guy.He just knew if he teamed up he had a chance of winning. It was wrong to team up with him. A mentally well Kariya would knew better than to trust the priest. |
| ^ Agreed. Not to mention that at that point not only was he unstable because of the worms, he was also very desperate because he was running out of options. |
|
souledge94 said: C-Core said: souledge94 said: C-Core said: souledge94 said: Wow talk about things going to crap magma everywhere.Oh man poor kariya what a sad and tragic end.All he wanted to do was save a girl from a horrible life.Hey there naked gil.At least waver got a happy ending.Your late father would be pleased(hehe I killed him).Hey look Aoi is still the same usless but she has a chair now.Im sure giving you this dagger will no way come back to bite me in the butt.....no way at all.So we kinda got a loose explnation of why berserker was fighting.Oh these guys suck they wont let him see his kid.I know things didint turn out as planned but still come on. Great series loved every minute of it.Now its time to wait for a year or two for the remake of FSN to be dubbed.I heard it was going to be original material but then I heard that was a mistranslation.So I wonder if its going to be the saber route. The bolded part is obviously not true. From the beginning, he wanted more than that. Well yea but that was his main goal.of course he wished for more and what he wished for wasint bad or anything.Doesint make this end any less tragic or sad. I'm sure you noticed that staying hidden and trying to avoid most conflicts, instead of letting Berserker go berserk against Archer and trying desperately to murder Tokiomi, would have been much smarter and would have helped Kariya's goals to win the Grail and save Sakura more. Then again, his mind was already screwed by the worms for a whole year at this time, so this is kind of a redundant point. The end was sad and tragic perhaps, but that depends. While wishing for the happiness of the people he loved is pretty selfless and noble, how he meant to achieve that was not. What really is perhaps tragic is that neither Aoi nor Tokiomi were able to understand Kariya's intentions, just as Kariya didn't understand Aoi or Tokiomi's feelings. Most conflicts in Fate/Zero could have been solved simply by talking. That is why Rider and Waver's relationship was the most stable and trusting one... besides Uryuu and Caster's one perhaps. I saw nothing wrong how he meant to achive those goals.Only unnoble thing you can proboly say was he intention of killing tokiomi though since hes a crap father and a prick I still sense nothing wrong with it.His team up with kiirei wasint really wrong at least to him since at that point I believe he didint know kirei was mr bad guy.He just knew if he teamed up he had a chance of winning. Tokiomi's death brings Aoi as much happiness as a human needs water in his lungs. Kariya's love for Sakura and Rin is an extension of his feelings for Aoi and his wish to start a family with her. There is a very selfish aspect in his dreams. He didn't think outside of his box. He never considered Aoi still loved Tokiomi. You sense nothing wrong about killing Tokiomi? I absolutely despise people who think this justifies murder, which in this case is conveniently covered, since both Tokiomi and Kariya are participating in the Grail War. As stated above, Kariya would never have trusted Kirei, if his mind was still healthy. Most likely, his conversation with Tokiomi would have turned out differently, too. |
souledge94 said: Aoi was a useless mother and doesint deserve the right to be called a mom so anything negative happening to her doesint really bother me at all.I feel bad for the kids not the parents.I know Kariya loves Aoi but in the end he will go out his way to help sakura even if his body is wrecked even if he doesint get his happy ending with Aoi he still cares enough for the kids to try and at least make them happy.Even though Kariya was upset that he wasint the one to get with Aoi if Tokiomi wasint a prick and a bad father im sure murder wouldint be on his mind however Tokiomi are those things so I say im fine with him being in the sights. Of course Aoi can't do much. Unlike you, she lacks deeper knowledge of pretty much everything. What she learns in episode 10 is that Kariya tries to kill Tokiomi because he wants to save Sakura. He gives her a half-assed explanation (which I don't even count as an explanation) that he looks like that because of the Matou magecraft, but "Sakura will be fine if I win the Grail, so please cheer me on, okay?". Try to think of what is going on in Aoi's mind instead of simply bashing her. She simply cannot understand Kariya. It sounded like "I'm gonna return your daughter for some undisclosed reason and btw, I WILL ALSO KILL YOUR HUSBAND". I think it's reasonable to focus on the part you understand. Parents do what they think is best for their children so she accepted Tokiomi's decision, thinking he did what is possibly best for Sakura. You don't care about Aoi's fate, but that is the crucial part here, because it matters to Kariya, was that so difficult to understand or what? He is horrified when he realizes that the person he just strangled was Aoi. Part of why he wants to save Sakura is because he wants to play the hero for Aoi. And Tokiomi is the bad, bad villain for him. Kariya wants a happy ending with Aoi. And that is exactly why Urobuchi made him suffer. He can't stand people who think like that. Or at least he crushes people who think this way. He reused this with Sayaka in Madoka Magica. If magi have more than one child, they won't let the younger children know about the secret of magic, they let them live normal lives as humans. In fact, telling more people about the secret weakens the mystery in general, which is why the Association stops any attempts to leak magic to the public. Here's the thing again, Tokiomi deeply regrets that he cannot give Sakura and Rin that choice to live as humans or as magi. In his mind, there is simply no other way than for them to become magi. "あり得ぬ" is the term he used when he thought about the secret of magic being shared, which means "it can't be done". The meaning is more along the lines of "If you aren't one of the great prominent houses, telling anyone besides the heir about your magecraft is impossible." Giving Sakura away to become the heir of another family was the best outcome that he could have imagined. I don't think he was capable of recognizing any other better options and there hardly are. He tries to spare Sakura from either death or a fate worse than death. That does not make him a prick. That he gave her to Zouken and with it full responsibility over her makes him a bad father, that we can agree on. I think I can see the point of ignoring her and cut all ties now, but that doesn't mean I didn't see the flaws either. The ultimate end of what Matō Kariya seeks is only the showdown with Tōsaka Tokiomi. Not considering his chances of winning, in the event that he was in the end victorious over Tokiomi and furthermore obtained the Grail— at that time, what will Kariya face? ... It did not even require thought; it must be his own darkness. Originally for the sake of helping Aoi reclaim her daughter, but now to claim the life of Aoi's husband. Of this contradiction he seemed still unaware, no, rather than say he is unaware, one might say he is, because of the jealousy and selfishness of his heart, intentionally deceiving himself, hiding this feeling. When facing that bloodstained victory, Matō Kariya will definitely sink into the dilemma of having to face the ugliness of his own heart. Crest Worm insanity or not, nothing justifies trying to kill Tokiomi here, no matter what you say, because his mind doesn't think in a way where he is simply doing it to win the war. "I want to save Sakura, which unfortunately requires me to fight Tokiomi" is not Kariya's mindset during the Grail War. It's "I want to save Sakura, and to do that I will do everything possible to fight and kill Tokiomi". You make it sound like Kariya wasn't able to get Aoi. That is not the case. Zouken was setting those two up in their childhood because she literally has a great magic womb. But it's not like Aoi ever saw more in Kariya than something close to a sibling. Kariya couldn't even talk to her normally. |
CapsuleCoreJun 1, 2014 3:12 PM
| Ugh I wanted to like this ending but I just couldn't As a non-VN reader, I was just confused and unsure about what was happening the whole time. The Grail scenario was vague last episode, and it was worse this time. I assume the fire occurred because of the contents of the grail were unharmed, but I had to read that on the boards (amongst other conflicting opinions), and sure as hell couldn't tell in the episode. I wasn't sure what happened to Archer until I read it as well. Went "what the fuck dumb" about Kirei. And I'm still not sure what that Kariya thing was. It was just confusing all around, directed by someone who knows the source and forgets other people don't. Everything felt hamfisted and loose ended into an opening situation for F/SN, which might be necessary but did not conclude the series well. Lackluster. I'll rate the series an 8 though. |
NinahJun 8, 2014 1:06 AM
yaddayadda said: The Grail scenario was vague last episode, and it was worse this time. Considering the show pretty much spells out that Grail is evil, I don't see how that was vague. And I'm still not sure what that Kariya thing was. I don' t see how that was confusing. The show made it quite clear on what happened to him and how. It was just confusing all around, directed by someone who knows the source and forgets other people don't. Everything felt hamfisted and loose ended into an opening situation for F/SN, which might be necessary but did not conclude the series well. That's because its a faithful adaptation of a prequel, thus yes it assumes one knows information presented in FSN(the real FSN, not the previous shitty adaptation that f/0 ignores) and can fill in the gaps. |
|
yaddayadda said: Lackluster. I'll rate the series an 8 though. Read the VN, then re-watch F/Z with that mindset. Worked for me. |
 |
| This series is quite the work of art, I loved everything about it - the plot, the characters, the animation and the soundtrack as well ^_^ I would re-watch it anytime. |
 |
Fai said: Considering the show pretty much spells out that Grail is evil, I don't see how that was vague. In the last discussion, there were lots of posts asking what happened and presenting conflicting opinions. It seemed like the Grail would grant the wish by making his family the last humans on earth, but that wasn't clear in the episode at all. It was just raining blood - pretty vague. I don' t see how that was confusing. The show made it quite clear on what happened to him and how. What happened? Was it a hallucination? I thought he'd already died. If it was real, how did he make it out of the hellfire alive? and can fill in the gaps. Yeah, and that's why I made the "necessary but does not conclude" comment. This series probably works well for VN readers. But as a standalone, the ending was definitely disjointed and choppy. |
yaddayadda said: This series probably works well for VN readers. But as a standalone, the ending was definitely disjointed and choppy. Because it isn't supposed to be a standalone. |
|
| Supposed to or not, thousands before and after me will watch this and only this. |
yaddayadda said: Supposed to or not, thousands before and after me will watch this and only this. So? It is still a prequel that is reliant on other works. Treating it like it's a standalone is wrong. Thousands doing it doesn't make it right. |
|
Ninah said: It seemed like the Grail would grant the wish by making his family the last humans on earth, but that wasn't clear in the episode at all. In Kiritsugu's whole sequence, Angra Mainyu/Iri talks to him and shows him that his miracle will be realized by using his method to kill the minority to save the majority. This will go on until the only two people that are left are Iri and Ilya and Iri tells him that this is the final realization of his prayer. Kiritsugu decides to refuse this offer and betrays the expectations of the Grail with these words: "Six billion people against two members of my family... I'll kill you and save the world." Just to remind you again what happened. This isn't confusing at all, most people simply don't pay attention. It's stated pretty clearly that everyone else will die if Kiritsugu makes his wish. Ninah said: What happened? Was it a hallucination? I thought he'd already died. If it was real, how did he make it out of the hellfire alive? Of course it was an illusion. You're making false assumptions, he didn't already die. In the last episode, Kariya has enough strength in him left to leave the city hall, walk past the burning fields and go to Sakura and tell her that they should go. Suddenly the scene switches to Rin in the park thanking Kariya for bringing her back. Huh, okay. Then however you see Aoi healthy and happy and the scene switches back to Kariya lying on the ground and becoming worm food with Sakura calling him a fool. I'm baffled why so many people are confused about this, it's pretty clear he was hallucinating. If Shirou, a boy of 6 or 7, can go through the burning fields for a time unharmed, before losing his strength, Kariya can do it too. He wasn't directly hit by the Grail mud or anything. Botato said: Treating it like it's a standalone is wrong. Thousands doing it doesn't make it right. This. Enough said. |
CapsuleCoreJun 10, 2014 3:44 AM
More topics from this board
» What's next?infinite_Shadows - Apr 10 |
13 |
by Ain2Zwei
»»
Apr 15, 4:48 PM |
|
Poll: » Fate/Zero 2nd Season Episode 11 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )tsubasalover - Jun 16, 2012 |
655 |
by Joel77
»»
Mar 25, 11:03 PM |
|
Poll: » Fate/Zero 2nd Season Episode 10 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Yumekichi11 - Jun 9, 2012 |
728 |
by damnit_tomioka
»»
Mar 18, 2:06 PM |
|
Poll: » Fate/Zero 2nd Season Episode 4 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )belatkuro - Apr 28, 2012 |
585 |
by goodwake
»»
Mar 9, 11:00 PM |
|
» is it necessary to watch fate stay/night 2006 ?Mugiwarayaa___ - Feb 25 |
24 |
by mykuza
»»
Feb 26, 2:46 AM |