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Marzan said: She didn't, she didn't intend to kill him either as her goal at that moment was Irisviel and only Irisviel. Rider didn't even use his power either, he basically went in with a hand held behind his back which is why Waver berated him for not using his Reality Marble.Great episode. Kariya is easily fooled and boy does he break down. Great chase scene. Cannot believe Saber bested Rider. |
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Leon-Gun said: Meh :/ Ultimately it's how ones views it. As much as I do agree on the suggestion it depends on how you view it as the viewer hence why I see it as nothing but a choking slow death bend on rage and unfairness raging from the inflicter on Aoi. Truly a nostalgic part that I would not visit out too much in my re-watching of this episode.Thess said: Not at all, how else would a person who can't even more well hold down a perfectly healthy woman? The position he uses is indeed very erotic in a visual form but it also is the only position he can choose where she can't escape his grasp.ernst said: 1lau said: And I thought Kariya was raping instead of killing at the end ^Same here. Ufotable made that scene unnecessarily erotic. The scene that was supposed to be rapish-like was the Berseker feeding on Kariya, if any. TBH the rape is only for Kariya to express his sexual frustrations of not being able to marry Aoi and instead Tokiomi did. I mean it's obvious he was willing to FUCK IT all and make a new family with her and Rin. He seems to admit it. Perhaps making her pregnant by force there may have been one solution for that during that choking. If he was alone but anyway point being is it's the only factor I can see in this being viewed more as rape by some. |
| Saber transforming her motorcycle was cool and the pursue was pretty interesting too. I was right to be suspicious about Irisviel's abduction. Rider would have never done such a thing to get to fight Saber. Kiritsugu torturing that Matou was...hm... *shivering* I hate Kotomine now more than anything else in this show! >:( Poor Rin... |
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| I thought KAriya was going to rape Aoi. But this was even worse. ;_; Poor Rin, now she's truly an orphan with Kirei as her guardian. At least she's smart enough not to trust him. Totally loved Saber on motorcycle. That part was truly awesome! It made realize how much of her potential was lost during 5th war. |
| great episode ... Saber was amazing but i dont know why she didnt finished Rider!? now Rider is nothing Without his chariot and he really cant defeat Saber without his NP i didnt understand too how kiristsugu find out that the servant who kidnap Irie was fake !! |
Kasai-Scythe said: Byakuya deserves that and more. He's basically a Proto!Shinji, not to mention...Saber transforming her motorcycle was cool and the pursue was pretty interesting too. I was right to be suspicious about Irisviel's abduction. Rider would have never done such a thing to get to fight Saber. Kiritsugu torturing that Matou was...hm... *shivering* I hate Kotomine now more than anything else in this show! >:( Poor Rin... loub31 said: He used logic, pure simple logic. Basically Waver Velvet doesn't have the resources or knowledge to know where the Einzbern's new base was and from the magi who could know that only the Matou were in position to use their Servant to conduct a secret attack. Basically, Kiritsugu dissed Waver Velvet's ability as a Master (corrrectly too) and judged he had no idea where Irisviel was at the moment so Rider couldn't have kidnapped her.i didnt understand too how kiristsugu find out that the servant who kidnap Irie was fake !! That said, Kiritsugu is acting under the assumption Kirei has no Servant which might cost him later. |
Leon-GunMay 27, 2012 3:07 PM
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loub31 said: great episode ... Saber was amazing but i dont know why she didnt finished Rider!? now Rider is nothing Without his chariot and he really cant defeat Saber without his NP i didnt understand too how kiristsugu find out that the servant who kidnap Irie was fake !! Did you just say Rider is nothing without his chariot? He still has IH. How could you forget about IH?? |
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Ragna92 said: Rider can't use IH wproperly without using Waver's Mana and he's unwilling to do so and risk Waver's life. He's still a threat however and if Waver sees no choice he can force Rider to use the Reality Marble by using a COmmand Spell.loub31 said: great episode ... Saber was amazing but i dont know why she didnt finished Rider!? now Rider is nothing Without his chariot and he really cant defeat Saber without his NP i didnt understand too how kiristsugu find out that the servant who kidnap Irie was fake !! Did you just say Rider is nothing without his chariot? He still has IH. How could you forget about IH?? |
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| Karia have used 2 of his command seal .. . I think one to force berserker to use his NP ... but what was the second for ? |
Leon-Gun said: What I am confused about is why would there be not a way to replenish Rider's Mana Stores? How much of them are there and why were so many used in so little time.Ragna92 said: Rider can't use IH wproperly without using Waver's Mana and he's unwilling to do so and risk Waver's life. He's still a threat however and if Waver sees no choice he can force Rider to use the Reality Marble by using a COmmand Spell.loub31 said: great episode ... Saber was amazing but i dont know why she didnt finished Rider!? now Rider is nothing Without his chariot and he really cant defeat Saber without his NP i didnt understand too how kiristsugu find out that the servant who kidnap Irie was fake !! Did you just say Rider is nothing without his chariot? He still has IH. How could you forget about IH?? Is basically Rider/Berserker MANA GUZZLING servants? |
Yumekichi11 said: Leon-Gun said: What I am confused about is why would there be not a way to replenish Rider's Mana Stores? How much of them are there and why were so many used in so little time.Ragna92 said: Rider can't use IH wproperly without using Waver's Mana and he's unwilling to do so and risk Waver's life. He's still a threat however and if Waver sees no choice he can force Rider to use the Reality Marble by using a COmmand Spell.loub31 said: great episode ... Saber was amazing but i dont know why she didnt finished Rider!? now Rider is nothing Without his chariot and he really cant defeat Saber without his NP i didnt understand too how kiristsugu find out that the servant who kidnap Irie was fake !! Did you just say Rider is nothing without his chariot? He still has IH. How could you forget about IH?? Is basically Rider/Berserker MANA GUZZLING servants? Bersekers in general consume a lot of mana just by standing.But for every other Servant depends on their actions.Think of a video game with MP.The stronger the move the more MP you spent.But unlike video games MP is also the life force of a Servant. loub31 said: Karia have used 2 of his command seal .. . I think one to force berserker to use his NP ... but what was the second for ? Kidnap Iri and let Saber go,so that he wont go mad(even more) again after seeing her |
ssjokgMay 27, 2012 3:58 PM
Yumekichi11 said: Pretty much, he's making a miracle against the force of nature. Reality Marbles by their very nature are very high level of magecraft and Rider's specifically is basically replicating an army of Heroic Spirits in the thousands. Every single person in his army is considered a Heroic Spirit itself and Waver Velvet is not strong enough to give Rider enough mana to mantain it so Rider used his own mana reserves. Servants though need mana to even remain in the world so if he runs out of it that's the end, he "dies". So basically right now, unless he's boosted somehow and willing to risk Waver's life, he can't use Ionioi Hetairoi. You can basically say Rider would have been unstoppable (perhaps even able to curbstomp Gil due to how great a General he is when it comes to tactics) if he had a strong Master like Kayneth instead of a weaker one like Waver.What I am confused about is why would there be not a way to replenish Rider's Mana Stores? How much of them are there and why were so many used in so little time. Is basically Rider/Berserker MANA GUZZLING servants? Anyway, short answers: Yeah, he's basically creating an army of Servants weaker than him (yet still pretty strong). And no, he can't recover enough mana from Waver without draining Waver dry like a bone. Rider's mana reserves are huge which goes to show just how much mana consumption IH takes to use. And when I said weaker Servants I mean it in the power they are materialized. According to side material for Fate/Zero, there are Heroic Spirits that answer to Alexander's call that are stronger than Alexander himself, but he can't provide them enough power for them to use their Noble Phantasms. |
Leon-GunMay 27, 2012 5:05 PM
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| I watched it and it didn't feel right to me. Wasabi said: Saber didn't even bother asking Rider where Irisviel is. ಠ_ಠ That's one thing and the fuck happened in the church, why was Aoi there, no one questioning the other and what happened and Kariya killing her and as I read here, Aoi isn't even dead, how the hell could she not die. |
Zhou said: Honestly either ufotable changed it or they're trolling us. Vissually it appears as she is. The Book however wrote it as her losing conciousness as he regained his senses and let go. In the LN at least he stops before killing her. I watched it and it didn't feel right to me. Wasabi said: Saber didn't even bother asking Rider where Irisviel is. ಠ_ಠ That's one thing and the fuck happened in the church, why was Aoi there, no one questioning the other and what happened and Kariya killing her and as I read here, Aoi isn't even dead, how the hell could she not die. Also, why did people think Saber would ask questions to someone she can clearly see doesn't has Irisviel (nor was acting like he had just comitted kidnapping). Rider was being his normal self so she saw there was no use and left. They can't just give us 5 minutes of monologues just to get it through our skulls otherwise we'd need another 20+ episodes, considering the amoung of internal monologues and descriptions in the Light Novels. |
Leon-GunMay 27, 2012 6:22 PM
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Leon-Gun said: I am totally shocked at how enlighten I am thanks to your response. So basically there is still one thing that makes no sense what of Ley Lines and their boost upon Rider? I though Waver said they were supposed to boost the mana flow to recover Rider and Waver's magic circuits are wide open optimally too. Yumekichi11 said: Pretty much, he's making a miracle against the force of nature. Reality Marbles by their very nature are very high level of magecraft and Rider's specifically is basically replicating an army of Heroic Spirits in the thousands. Every single person in his army is considered a Heroic Spirit itself and Waver Velvet is not strong enough to give Rider enough mana to maintain it so Rider used his own mana reserves. Servants though need mana to even remain in the world so if he runs out of it that's the end, he "dies". So basically right now, unless he's boosted somehow and willing to risk Waver's life, he can't use Ionioi Hetairoi. You can basically say Rider would have been unstoppable (perhaps even able to curb-stomp Gil due to how great a General he is when it comes to tactics) if he had a strong Master like Kayneth instead of a weaker one like Waver.What I am confused about is why would there be not a way to replenish Rider's Mana Stores? How much of them are there and why were so many used in so little time. Is basically Rider/Berserker MANA GUZZLING servants? Anyway, short answers: Yeah, he's basically creating an army of Servants weaker than him (yet still pretty strong). And no, he can't recover enough mana from Waver without draining Waver dry like a bone. Rider's mana reserves are huge which goes to show just how much mana consumption IH takes to use. And when I said weaker Servants I mean it in the power they are materialized. According to side material for Fate/Zero, there are Heroic Spirits that answer to Alexander's call that are stronger than Alexander himself, but he can't provide them enough power for them to use their Noble Phantasms. So despite all that you are saying that Kayneth could have been still better? Other than that if Rider could summon stronger heroes than him then why was not Caster killed by his Sphere dimension? The mana flow problem I understand but surely the mana stores might have supported of one of the heroes to kill off caster's monster during that time. Once again I follow you closely in this series in almost all replies you put out. You are seen by me quite ELITE in knowing this Universe. |
Yumekichi11 said: TBH the rape is only for Kariya to express his sexual frustrations of not being able to marry Aoi and instead Tokiomi did. I mean it's obvious he was willing to FUCK IT all and make a new family with her and Rin. He seems to admit it. Perhaps making her pregnant by force there may have been one solution for that during that choking. If he was alone but anyway point being is it's the only factor I can see in this being viewed more as rape by some. Wrong. Kariya, novel wise, wasn't even aware he was choking Aoi. He was so crazy he thought he was choking some demonic woman or something who was telling him that all his sacrifices for Aoi's happiness was for nothing and he was the source of her despair. When he 'recognized' her as Aoi, he released her. The anime could give room to many interpretations, but in the novels, Kariya's actions weren't towards Aoi, but a moment of mental collapse he choked her without realizing who she was. |
| @Yumekichi: Caster was basically cheating by using Prelati's Spellbook (which has independent mana stores) so he can outlast Rider in terms of mana supplies. And while he can summon Heroic Spirits that are more powerful than himself, he can't give them more power than he himself has. In other words, if say, they were to be summoned as a Servant by an independent Master they could be stronger than Rider himself; but since Rider doesn't have enough power to summon them at full strenght they can't use their Noble Phantasms or their full strenght. It's a little cop out, or should we say weakness, to his otherwise incredibly strong Reality Marble. The fact he can use a Reality Marble at all is a miracle itself since he's a Heroic Spirit, not a magus, demon or elemental. |
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Leon-Gun said: @Yumekichi: Caster was basically cheating by using Prelati's Spellbook (which has independent mana stores) so he can outlast Rider in terms of mana supplies. And while he can summon Heroic Spirits that are more powerful than himself, he can't give them more power than he himself has. In other words, if say, they were to be summoned as a Servant by an independent Master they could be stronger than Rider himself; but since Rider doesn't have enough power to summon them at full strenght they can't use their Noble Phantasms or their full strenght. It's a little cop out, or should we say weakness, to his otherwise incredibly strong Reality Marble. The fact he can use a Reality Marble at all is a miracle itself since he's a Heroic Spirit, not a magus, demon or elemental. IIRC, the Noble Phantasm of the more powerful in his army is more related to his current capacity (aka his stats under Waver as a Rider) rather than Rider's strength. |
| Why does Gen Urobuchi hate all of humanity? Take one character, add sympathy, and give him a selfless cause---->turn him into a homicidal maniac. And, in the end, the most evil and despicable character of them all, Zouken, is living it up. Hell, I'm sure he'll probably get the happiest ending of them all. I mean, even Kirei looked disgusted by his presence. Fantastic episode all the same. |
| Zouken was like Kiritsugu once, you know. |
loub31 said: Karia have used 2 of his command seal .. . I think one to force berserker to use his NP ... but what was the second for ? Remember how Berserker always goes nuts every time he sees Saber? Kariya is using his second command seal to keep him restrained. If Kariya doesn't take control over his servant, his plan (or rather Kirei's plan) to kidnap Irisviel and trick Saber & Kiritsugu will be ruined. Now I really wonder what would have happened if the real Rider didn't show up. What would Kariya and Kirei do then... |
| i'm a bit shocked at the number of people who confused manslaughter for rape, even for a second. It wasn't even ambiguous. some dark dirty minds out there. |
| Ooo, what a lovely tea party. |
Eckilsax said: i'm a bit shocked at the number of people who confused manslaughter for rape, even for a second. It wasn't even ambiguous. some dark dirty minds out there. It was aggravated assault. |
Thess said: Zouken was like Kiritsugu once, you know. I feel so bad for him. |
Mormegil said: I feel so bad for him. Zolgen Makiri (who became Zouken Matou centuries after):  He really let himself go, didn't he? As if he gets a 'happy' ending... |
ThessMay 27, 2012 9:15 PM
| Okay. He was once a young guy. That's great. He's still a vile person. Kiritsugu doesn't feed children to worms. Not clicking your spoiler. |
Thess said: Eckilsax said: i'm a bit shocked at the number of people who confused manslaughter for rape, even for a second. It wasn't even ambiguous. some dark dirty minds out there. It was aggravated assault. Yeah, I forgot she's still alive if you can call it that. Still beside the point though. |
| Ooo, what a lovely tea party. |
Mormegil said: Okay. He was once a young guy. That's great. He's still a vile person. Kiritsugu doesn't feed children to worms. Not clicking your spoiler. No, but he is capable of killing children if it gets the job done. So? Kiritsugu didn't live over 200 years with the agony Kariya and Sakura are sorta of experiencing right now until he broke and forgot his own sense of self. Not to defend Zouken since he's not really one of my favorites, but he's hardly evil in the sense Kirei is (although he's more despicable). Kirei (who is one of my favorite characters) was born this way. He was trying to be righteous and denied himself. He had no choice about it. Zouken, much like Kiritsugu, brought this upon himself for the sake of creating an utopia. He could have be a normal guy, but tough luck, got to embrace those impossible ideals and destroy themselves by the methods to accomplish them. A part of Kirei's anger at Zouken is because he isn't like him, despite of what Zouken claims (later rectifies in HF). He became this way. A part because his 'vampiric' nature conflicts his exorcist one. But he is angry at people like him in particular: who toss their chance of happiness to become something like that for something as ridiculous as "save the world" or "heaven on earth." You'll see more next week when he learns about the exact nature of Kiritsugu. |
ThessMay 27, 2012 10:53 PM
| Well.... I'm not sure how to express this... It's quite confusing, because I've seen Fate/Stay, and it definitely take a lot of joy away from watching Fate/Zero... I know what's going to happen... So I find it illogical to root for anyone, because the answer is already there. I curse myself for watching Fate/Stay. Imagine how much joy it would've brought me if I hadn't. Sakura, Kariya, Kiritsugu, Kirei, Archer.... I would've see them all in very different lights. The most that I got out of this season is Emiya Kiritsugu and the "King" debate. (and of course, great soundtrack and animation)... Otherwise, the only thing other than those 2 mentioned above, there's just some shocks here and there... but overall, a lot is butchered by my prior Knowledge of Fate/Stay. I could've been dreaming about a lot of what ifs endings... I would've been surprise by some deaths, and... So much more... Fate/Zero is not a bad show, it's a great show... But I simply find it hard to enjoy it's plot... It's characters and philosophy is pretty top notch. I donno man... A lot of emotion I should've experience is taken away from me, the thought me that depresses me. |
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| All i gotta say is amazing. I'm new i always read these discussions on this website of animes i watch i just never joined and put my thoughts up. Because of bad past exp on other forums. But i loved the show even if i know what kinda happens since i read the light novels. Great ep Great show want more <3 |
sonicxsamMay 28, 2012 2:16 AM
Shirou you and me... are one of the same |
| Wow seriously? Saber just leaves Rider and Waver hanging there when she could easily finish them? Oh right. Because then actual progress would be made. Can't have that happen, now, can we? Seriously, anticlimactic as hell. So much beating around the bush. I predict nobody else dying and some bullshit happening in the last episode to end it all. |
| Video rants & stuff: Top 12 Heart-Wrenching Scenes in Anime | DraconisMarch Video Club |
DraconisMarch said: Wow seriously? Saber just leaves Rider and Waver hanging there when she could easily finish them? She has no idea what else Rider may have up his sleeve and she needs to focus on finding Irisviel. Leaving the fight, after insuring that he couldn't follow her, was a smart move. Oh right. Because then actual progress would be made. Can't have that happen, now, can we? Seriously, anticlimactic as hell. So much beating around the bush. I predict nobody else dying and some bullshit happening in the last episode to end it all. At least one character has died every episode, with the exception of 16, which had several characters dying at once. What kind of progress do you want, exactly? |
LunarMoonMay 28, 2012 4:01 AM
| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan! |
DraconisMarch said: Wow seriously? Saber just leaves Rider and Waver hanging there when she could easily finish them? Oh right. Because then actual progress would be made. Can't have that happen, now, can we? Seriously, anticlimactic as hell. So much beating around the bush. I predict nobody else dying and some bullshit happening in the last episode to end it all. Characters death is what defines progress now?Go watch elfen lied or Blood C if thats what you want.And why lose time fighting Rider even more since she is searching for Iri.She cant use Excalibur again and again.If she were to continue, Rider would have no choice but to use IH,winning and then left defenseless against Gil. AirStyles said: Well.... I'm not sure how to express this... It's quite confusing, because I've seen Fate/Stay, and it definitely take a lot of joy away from watching Fate/Zero... I know what's going to happen... So I find it illogical to root for anyone, because the answer is already there. I curse myself for watching Fate/Stay. Imagine how much joy it would've brought me if I hadn't. Sakura, Kariya, Kiritsugu, Kirei, Archer.... I would've see them all in very different lights. The most that I got out of this season is Emiya Kiritsugu and the "King" debate. (and of course, great soundtrack and animation)... Otherwise, the only thing other than those 2 mentioned above, there's just some shocks here and there... but overall, a lot is butchered by my prior Knowledge of Fate/Stay. I could've been dreaming about a lot of what ifs endings... I would've been surprise by some deaths, and... So much more... Fate/Zero is not a bad show, it's a great show... But I simply find it hard to enjoy it's plot... It's characters and philosophy is pretty top notch. I donno man... A lot of emotion I should've experience is taken away from me, the thought me that depresses me. I see your point but Fate/zero was created for FSN vn readers in the first place.It's basically how everything happened until the end.I had read all of FSN and still was wondering how the hell did |
ssjokgMay 28, 2012 4:04 AM
ssjokg said: I hate to break it to you, but that's kind of the point of the Holy Grail War: to kill everyone else so you can win it.Characters death is what defines progress now? LunarMoon said: People who die that aren't participating in the Holy Grail War do not bring it any closer to its end. Only 6 of the 14 participating in the Grail War have died. That means we have 4 whole episodes for 4 master-servant pairs to be eliminated--all of which are pretty significant. But it took us ~17 episodes to kill ONE servant and TWO pairs.At least one character has died every episode, with the exception of 16, which had several characters dying at once. What kind of progress do you want, exactly? Saber just threw away an opportunity to do away with another, and Kirei is just playing with Kariya. Do you seriously think it will be able to end any other way? |
| Video rants & stuff: Top 12 Heart-Wrenching Scenes in Anime | DraconisMarch Video Club |
DraconisMarch said: ssjokg said: I hate to break it to you, but that's kind of the point of the Holy Grail War: to kill everyone else so you can win it.Characters death is what defines progress now? LunarMoon said: People who die that aren't participating in the Holy Grail War do not bring it any closer to its end. Only 6 of the 14 participating in the Grail War have died. That means we have 4 whole episodes for 4 master-servant pairs to be eliminated--all of which are pretty significant. But it took us ~17 episodes to kill ONE servant and TWO pairs.At least one character has died every episode, with the exception of 16, which had several characters dying at once. What kind of progress do you want, exactly? Saber just threw away an opportunity to do away with another, and Kirei is just playing with Kariya. Do you seriously think it will be able to end any other way? Then you are missing the point of the entire show.If you dont likeit then why are you still watching it.We are 5 eps before the end. You also forget Assasin and Caster.Two Servants and one Master more,it wasnt only Lancer. I dont know what you are looking for in this series.Meaningless battles every 2 eps?Master & Servants deaths every ep?I guess it would be better if we throw them in a Arena end let them fight to death... |
ssjokgMay 28, 2012 4:49 AM
DraconisMarch said: ssjokg said: I hate to break it to you, but that's kind of the point of the Holy Grail War: to kill everyone else so you can win it.Characters death is what defines progress now? LunarMoon said: People who die that aren't participating in the Holy Grail War do not bring it any closer to its end. Only 6 of the 14 participating in the Grail War have died. That means we have 4 whole episodes for 4 master-servant pairs to be eliminated--all of which are pretty significant. But it took us ~17 episodes to kill ONE servant and TWO pairs.At least one character has died every episode, with the exception of 16, which had several characters dying at once. What kind of progress do you want, exactly? Saber just threw away an opportunity to do away with another, and Kirei is just playing with Kariya. Do you seriously think it will be able to end any other way? huh the end is already decided before FZ was made so Saber walked away because she knew Rider still has IH, why bother risking her life when her master not even there, and her priority was finding Irs. Kirei only played with Kariya because he enjoyed seeing Kariya having mental break down and slowly fades away in despair more than killing him, nothing hard to understand. |
DraconisMarch said: ssjokg said: I hate to break it to you, but that's kind of the point of the Holy Grail War: to kill everyone else so you can win it.Characters death is what defines progress now? Are you seriously writing that, since the objective of the anime is to kill everyone we should disregard anything else that does not directly revolve around that? So what, should we just put the servants in a big arena and organize a new Tenkaichi? People have actually tried killing each other for the whole serie. The difference is that the setting tries to have some kind of coerence so they can't simply "walk into mordor" if you pass me the quote. We cannot say "plot hax" every single time someone does not die or is not killed: those characters have a "personality" and act accordingly to that, not the desires of us viewers ("The story should go in the direction I decide and if that doesn't happen then it sucks!"). Saber had motives not to continue her battle with Rider. Kirei had motives not to kill Kariya today. |
| So Kirei has fully accepted his sadistic nature. Poor Kanya became a victim of every crazy sadist in this anime. What did they mean by Irisviel being the vessel of the grail? Totentanz said: S Which path will Kariya take from now on with both his nemesis and his love interest having met their demise? If he still can think rationally he will come to realize who the culprit is and will try to seek revenge. Then he and his servant would be on the same wavelenght at least. Yes, i expect that now he and his servant will be even more of a perfect much. Both going revenge and berserk mode. |
Monad said: What did they mean by Irisviel being the vessel of the grail? Generically speaking, her body (or, well, part of it) is what allows the manifestation of the Grail as the end of the war approaches. |
Thess said: It's too bad they did not show that but you can't deny the fact he still had love for her and wanted her instead of Tokiomi having her.Yumekichi11 said: TBH the rape is only for Kariya to express his sexual frustrations of not being able to marry Aoi and instead Tokiomi did. I mean it's obvious he was willing to FUCK IT all and make a new family with her and Rin. He seems to admit it. Perhaps making her pregnant by force there may have been one solution for that during that choking. If he was alone but anyway point being is it's the only factor I can see in this being viewed more as rape by some. Wrong. Kariya, novel wise, wasn't even aware he was choking Aoi. He was so crazy he thought he was choking some demonic woman or something who was telling him that all his sacrifices for Aoi's happiness was for nothing and he was the source of her despair. When he 'recognized' her as Aoi, he released her. The anime could give room to many interpretations, but in the novels, Kariya's actions weren't towards Aoi, but a moment of mental collapse he choked her without realizing who she was. |
Monad said: So Kirei has fully accepted his sadistic nature. Poor Kanya became a victim of every crazy sadist in this anime. What did they mean by Irisviel being the vessel of the grail? . She is the grail and it's contents.As you noticed every time a Servant is killed her condition becomes worse (she takes inside her the energy of the killed Servants) cause she turns into the grail.(see ep 17,Iri and Maiya discussion) |
ssjokgMay 28, 2012 10:17 AM
Yumekichi11 said: TBH the rape is only for Kariya to express his sexual frustrations of not being able to marry Aoi and instead Tokiomi did. I mean it's obvious he was willing to FUCK IT all and make a new family with her and Rin. He seems to admit it. Perhaps making her pregnant by force there may have been one solution for that during that choking. If he was alone but anyway point being is it's the only factor I can see in this being viewed more as rape by some.. You are seriously demented. ssjokg said: Monad said: So Kirei has fully accepted his sadistic nature. Poor Kanya became a victim of every crazy sadist in this anime. What did they mean by Irisviel being the vessel of the grail? . She is the grail and it's contents.As you noticed every time a Servant is killed her condition becomes worse (she takes inside her the energy of the killed Servants) cause she turns into the grail. Why haven't they explained this to us from before then? Or was it supposed to be revealed later and i spoiled my self? But that can't be because if it was suppose to be a surprise for later they wouldn't have mentioned it like that. This the big flaw with every Fate anime. You always feel like you ain't really into the essence of the story because they make it with big holes. |
MonadMay 28, 2012 9:11 AM
Monad said: Yumekichi11 said: Why haven't they explained this to us from before then? Or was it supposed to be revealed later and i spoiled my self? But that can't be because if it was suppose to be a surprise for later they wouldn't have mentioned it like that. This the big flaw with every Fate anime. You always feel like you ain't really into the essence of the story because they make it with big holes. She herself explained it a bit, giving hints mostly to maya and it's kinda implyied everywhere. The novel is far more direct into explaining it though so I guess they were going for a surprise effect. |
Yumekichi11 said: Thess said: It's too bad they did not show that but you can't deny the fact he still had love for her and wanted her instead of Tokiomi having her.Yumekichi11 said: TBH the rape is only for Kariya to express his sexual frustrations of not being able to marry Aoi and instead Tokiomi did. I mean it's obvious he was willing to FUCK IT all and make a new family with her and Rin. He seems to admit it. Perhaps making her pregnant by force there may have been one solution for that during that choking. If he was alone but anyway point being is it's the only factor I can see in this being viewed more as rape by some. Wrong. Kariya, novel wise, wasn't even aware he was choking Aoi. He was so crazy he thought he was choking some demonic woman or something who was telling him that all his sacrifices for Aoi's happiness was for nothing and he was the source of her despair. When he 'recognized' her as Aoi, he released her. The anime could give room to many interpretations, but in the novels, Kariya's actions weren't towards Aoi, but a moment of mental collapse he choked her without realizing who she was. No one can deny that he still loved her but he wouldnt do this just to be with her.He would go back to his family learn some magecraft and kill Tokiomi some years later(if that was possible) if he hadnt accepted her decision.What made him participate in the war was that the man Aoi chose was willing to destroy his family for a magu's"pride" and Aoi wasnt doing anything about this.If Kariya had never heard about Sakura, nothing would have happen. Monad said: Why haven't they explained this to us from before then? Or was it supposed to be revealed later and i spoiled my self? But that can't be because if it was suppose to be a surprise for later they wouldn't have mentioned it like that. This the big flaw with every Fate anime. You always feel like you ain't really into the essence of the story because they make it with big holes. With "every Fate anime" I suppose you know about Ilya so I wonder why you are surpised?And as Ukyo9 said she already explained it herself a bit( ep 17) |
ssjokgMay 28, 2012 9:26 AM
| Rider vs Saber moments are delicious to the eyes. DAT MOTORCYCLE!! I wonder what Zatou's role will be in the next episodes. And it's interesting to see Kirei's true nature awakened. |
Monad said: Refer to the scene where Maiya and Iri are driving from the church in episode 17. Irisviel clearly states that she is the vessel.ssjokg said: Why haven't they explained this to us from before then? Or was it supposed to be revealed later and i spoiled my self? But that can't be because if it was suppose to be a surprise for later they wouldn't have mentioned it like that.Monad said: What did they mean by Irisviel being the vessel of the grail? She is the grail and it's contents. |
stAtic91May 28, 2012 10:10 AM
 |
Monad said: What? It was just mind state assumption at most of his insanity. Surely he could have been this insane easily.Yumekichi11 said: TBH the rape is only for Kariya to express his sexual frustrations of not being able to marry Aoi and instead Tokiomi did. I mean it's obvious he was willing to FUCK IT all and make a new family with her and Rin. He seems to admit it. Perhaps making her pregnant by force there may have been one solution for that during that choking. If he was alone but anyway point being is it's the only factor I can see in this being viewed more as rape by some.. You are seriously demented. ssjokg said: Indeed and I do understand but I had the impression that Kariya knew Sakura's family including Aoi for a while. This is not something sudden as such he would have though of plans to do all this.Yumekichi11 said: Thess said: It's too bad they did not show that but you can't deny the fact he still had love for her and wanted her instead of Tokiomi having her.Yumekichi11 said: TBH the rape is only for Kariya to express his sexual frustrations of not being able to marry Aoi and instead Tokiomi did. I mean it's obvious he was willing to FUCK IT all and make a new family with her and Rin. He seems to admit it. Perhaps making her pregnant by force there may have been one solution for that during that choking. If he was alone but anyway point being is it's the only factor I can see in this being viewed more as rape by some. Wrong. Kariya, novel wise, wasn't even aware he was choking Aoi. He was so crazy he thought he was choking some demonic woman or something who was telling him that all his sacrifices for Aoi's happiness was for nothing and he was the source of her despair. When he 'recognized' her as Aoi, he released her. The anime could give room to many interpretations, but in the novels, Kariya's actions weren't towards Aoi, but a moment of mental collapse he choked her without realizing who she was. No one can deny that he still loved her but he wouldn’t do this just to be with her. He would go back to his family learn some magecraft and kill Tokiomi some years later(if that was possible) if he hadn’t accepted her decision. What made him participate in the war was that the man Aoi chose was willing to destroy his family for a magu's"pride" and Aoi wasn’t doing anything about this. If Kariya had never heard about Sakura, nothing would have happen. That being said under the insane mood, he would get even more deranged of this plans. Hence I assumed a lot insane scenarios. I guess I got branded a little too crazy there. However it's all assuming so nothing is convicted upon myself of it. Hence I don't think it like that just suppose. |
Yumekichi11 said: It's too bad they did not show that but you can't deny the fact he still had love for her and wanted her instead of Tokiomi having her. They didn't spoonfeed people like the LN which tells you exactly what is, but it's not supposed to be seen that way. Did Kariya love her and would have liked to be her husband instead? Of course. But he was all right and happy for Aoi and Tokiomi before finding out about the Sakura's business. It's even in the LN spelled that clear. It was HER happiness, not his, what he valued the most. In fact, he didn't start to hate Tokiomi until he saw Sakura raped and covered by worms. Which is an understandable reaction after all Aoi told him that it was Tokiomi who took that decision. Over a year of torture, which includes a stroke that paralyzed half of his body and losing sight of one eye, his mental state deteriorated to the point that he couldn't really keep up with any complex mental process by the crippling agony and how the worms devoured his internal organs (the LN goes as far as spells aloud that, were Kariya's brain functions have been intact, he would have figured out this was all a set up by Kotomine). His hatred for Tokiomi was something that increased as outlet to keep him mobilize to keep going. He couldn't be hostile against Zouken (since the worms he has inside of him are Zouken and would make him suffer if he glares at him), Tokiomi was a solid target. Once again, the anime portrays him too pretty? He looked like a nuclear power plant explosion victim in the novel. He was barely recognizable lump of flesh (that was mostly dead) which only kept moving by magecraft. His voice was cracked and almost unrecognizable. |
ThessMay 28, 2012 10:48 AM
Thess said: I agree to this. Hence why he would be capable easily of assumed stuff I posted over his mind state. Raping Aoi? Making her pregnant on the spot? HAHAH! With what you say it could have been done easily. Just that he recovered his awareness at the last minute. Pretty much makes sense. Still does not deny the fact due to the worms he saw illusions and could have easily had one of Aoi being a sudden light for him to make a kid with. Just saying he was so demented that any scenario of INSANE proportions may be in fact applied to him due to the worms.Yumekichi11 said: It's too bad they did not show that but you can't deny the fact he still had love for her and wanted her instead of Tokiomi having her. They didn't spoonfeed people like the LN which tells you exactly what is, but it's not supposed to be seen that way. Did Kariya love her and would have liked to be her husband instead? Of course. But he was all right and happy for Aoi and Tokiomi before finding out about the Sakura's business. It's even in the LN spelled that clear. In fact, he didn't start to hate Tokiomi until he saw Sakura raped and covered by worms. Which is an understandable reaction after all Aoi told him that it was Tokiomi who took that decision. Over a year of torture, which includes a stroke that paralyzed half of his body and losing sight of one eye, his mental state deteriorated to the point that he couldn't really keep up with any complex mental process by the crippling agony and how the worms devoured his internal organs. His hatred for Tokiomi was something that increased as outlet to keep him mobilize to keep going. He couldn't be hostile against Zouken (since the worms he has inside of him are Zouken and would make him suffer if he glares at him), Tokiomi was a solid target. |
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