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Fate/Zero 2nd Season Episode 7 Discussion
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Poll: Fate/Zero 2nd Season Episode 7 Discussion


05-19-12, 3:09 PM
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And kidnapping Irisviel just doesn't seem like the sort of thing that Iskander would do. In some ways he has almost fatherly attitudes towards both Waiver and Saber. He wants to teach Saber a lesson, but he wants to do it by beating her on the battlefield. I'm curious to see which of the remaining heroic spirits or masters is still playing "let's you and him fight".
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05-19-12, 3:17 PM

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Thess said:
Yumekichi11 said:
And I understand your confusion but it was to precise that if Alexander REALLY but really wants to do something, he ain't even going to tell anyone. He will go and fight shit instead of involving his army if he wants to do it alone. That's basically it IRL Alexander. I spoke to some scholars of him.


Uh ok. RL Alexander =/= Nasuverse Alexander. Or is King Arthur a little girl and Gilgamesh some bishounen guido? Also, which scholars are you even quoting?
Yeah I know but Fiction VS Reality is do much more fun when clearly IRL elements are present. That being said, I am not quoting them but in general speak of the theme of Alexander the Great's Lifestyle and what of it. Still vague even in 2012. There are no empirical evidence that say much of his privacy but I will stop there. Derailing thread is never good.

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05-19-12, 4:08 PM

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Maya's background as a child soldier wasn't surprising, and the lack of development dampens the effects of her death, whatever was intended. After a two episode exposition on Kiritsugu, I expected more than a few minutes on Maiya's connection to him. What was interesting was contrasting Maiya's views on Kiritsugu with that of Irisviel's, and perhaps more interestingly, with that of Shirou later on. Rider's regret is similar to that of Saber's, and at the same time very different, so their clash should be interesting.
Modified by MissileSoup, 05-19-12, 4:55 PM
 
05-19-12, 4:21 PM

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sallym613 said:
Also, in addition to what Thess says, Rider specifically said that he wouldnt be able to recover completely until nighttime. He might be very honest, open and eager to battle, but he's not completely reckless. He knows that if he really wants to fight Saber and show that he's right and she's wrong, he would definitely make sure he's on top shape before doing that. Especially if he's going against her with the possibility of her using Excalibur.

And kidnapping Irisviel before healing completely isn't exactly the best thing to do, especially since doing that will guarantee a clash with Saber.


He didn't even acknolwedge Saber who he claimed to fight.
 
05-19-12, 4:34 PM

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So...what exactly is going on between Maiya and Kiritsugu? Is she Kiritsugu's mistress?
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05-19-12, 4:50 PM

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FeatherNinja said:
So...what exactly is going on between Maiya and Kiritsugu? Is she Kiritsugu's mistress?


She is his mistress and tool.

Also important difference of the novel. In this bit, Kiritsugu was trying to kill Waver, using Saber as a bait to lure out the Master and Servant. She realized his intention and wanted to avoid it. He wasn't after Tokiomi Tohsaka. He followed Saber to snipe Waver in his cowardly fashion.

I guess they are either trying to speed things up or make him look better than his novel characterization. That's why they cut how his father hugged him in concern and he immediately shot him knowing how much his daddy loves him in episode 18 for the same reason.
Modified by Thess, 05-19-12, 4:59 PM
 
05-19-12, 5:19 PM

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Thess said:
sallym613 said:
Also, in addition to what Thess says, Rider specifically said that he wouldnt be able to recover completely until nighttime. He might be very honest, open and eager to battle, but he's not completely reckless. He knows that if he really wants to fight Saber and show that he's right and she's wrong, he would definitely make sure he's on top shape before doing that. Especially if he's going against her with the possibility of her using Excalibur.

And kidnapping Irisviel before healing completely isn't exactly the best thing to do, especially since doing that will guarantee a clash with Saber.


He didn't even acknolwedge Saber who he claimed to fight.


It'll be explained in next episode. Trust me. All things will be cleared.
 
05-19-12, 5:21 PM

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Thess said:
FeatherNinja said:
So...what exactly is going on between Maiya and Kiritsugu? Is she Kiritsugu's mistress?


She is his mistress and tool.

Also important difference of the novel. In this bit, Kiritsugu was trying to kill Waver, using Saber as a bait to lure out the Master and Servant. She realized his intention and wanted to avoid it. He wasn't after Tokiomi Tohsaka. He followed Saber to snipe Waver in his cowardly fashion.


Well, if sniping an enemy is cowardly than U.S. Marine snipers must be cowardly as well, according to that logic. I'm going to have to disagree, on that. Anyway, I fail to see how killing Waver is any worse than killing Tokiomi. They both entered the Grail War, knowing full well that they'd be endangering their lives, a point that Waver vocally accepted in this very episode.
Modified by LunarMoon, 05-19-12, 5:26 PM
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05-19-12, 5:31 PM

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LunarMoon said:
Well, if sniping an enemy is cowardly than U.S. Marine snipers must be cowardly as well, according to that logic. I'm going to have to disagree, on that. Anyway, I fail to see how killing Waver is any worse than killing Tokiomi. They both entered the Grail War, knowing full well that they'd be endangering their lives, a point that Waver vocally accepted in this very episode.


Saber strongly disagrees. She feels more cautious and hostile against her "ally" than her enemies. She's right. It's a battle of magi. Waver signed up for that: MAGIC. He's using guns. He's a coward who uses underhanded methods. That's supposed to be his work profile.

Had he been successful, kiss the world goodbye in twenty years.


Code_Alchemy said:
He didn't even acknolwedge Saber who he claimed to fight.


Heh. I know. I'm wondering how could people not notice.
Modified by Thess, 05-19-12, 5:35 PM
 
05-19-12, 5:32 PM

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Yeah I'd say sniping is pretty cowardly in any situation. Killing someone without any chance for them to retaliate from a safe and sound distance. That being that literally stabbing someone in the back isn't much better... but if somehow Tousaka survived that he could have atleast had a chance to retaliate. Why use U.S soldiers in particular... you think U.S marines are the only people who can use a sniper rifle?
 
05-19-12, 5:46 PM

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Thess said:
FeatherNinja said:
So...what exactly is going on between Maiya and Kiritsugu? Is she Kiritsugu's mistress?


She is his mistress and tool.

Also important difference of the novel. In this bit, Kiritsugu was trying to kill Waver, using Saber as a bait to lure out the Master and Servant. She realized his intention and wanted to avoid it. He wasn't after Tokiomi Tohsaka. He followed Saber to snipe Waver in his cowardly fashion.

I guess they are either trying to speed things up or make him look better than his novel characterization. That's why they cut how his father hugged him in concern and he immediately shot him knowing how much his daddy loves him in episode 18 for the same reason.


If they were trying to make Kiritsugu look more likable with that scene I think they'd have had him kill his father instantly as he did in the novel, rather than stab him in the belly first, which hug or no hug definitely didn't serve to endear Kiritsugu to me any more than the way it happened in the Novel.

And do we actually know that Maiya was his mistress? I don't recall reading anything in the LN to confirm that (remind me if you do it's quite possible I've forgotten) and the kiss early in the show (which when I saw it initially did make me think she was his mistress) never actually led to anything and was explained in the novel as Maiya trying to distract him from unnecessary thoughts and nothing more.

I mean I think it's possible and perhaps even probable that they did get intimate prior to Kiritsugu's relationship with Irisviel but from that point onwards I don't think he'd have done anything with her (aside from the kiss he didn't resist).
Modified by TopgunUK, 05-19-12, 6:13 PM
 
05-19-12, 5:48 PM

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NOOOO MAIYA NOOOOOOOOO WHY SHE HAVE TO DIE, DAMN YOU RIDER.


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05-19-12, 5:50 PM

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Thess do you believe in nobility and chivalry belong in WAR or that they make it any better too?Noble or not ,underhanded or not it doesnt matter in a war.And it's a battle for the grail not magi.Anyone as longs the grail allows it(Ryuunusuke, Kireix2) can enter.Dying by magic isnt any batter than any gun Kiritsugu has.And unless I am wrong magic IS more powerful than guns,knives and bombs.Example: Kayneth .If not for the Origin bullet Kiritsugu would have died from his magic.And before you say that he used a gun for that,Kayneth knew his unorthodox ways of fighting and did a pretty good job defending against him.
And Waver at this point knows the same things Kiritsugu does
Modified by Othi-tan, 05-19-12, 5:55 PM
 
05-19-12, 5:53 PM

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bottosai-01 said:
Yeah I'd say sniping is pretty cowardly in any situation. Killing someone without any chance for them to retaliate from a safe and sound distance. That being that literally stabbing someone in the back isn't much better... but if somehow Tousaka survived that he could have atleast had a chance to retaliate. Why use U.S soldiers in particular... you think U.S marines are the only people who can use a sniper rifle?


Nope. But it's a specific example rather than a vague, general one. So with that said, would you make the claim that every member of the U.S. Marines, trained as a sniper, is a coward? I certainly wouldn't.

Saber strongly disagrees. She feels more cautious and hostile against her "ally" than her enemies. She's right. It's a battle of magi. Waver signed up for that: MAGIC. He's using guns. He's a coward who uses underhanded methods. That's supposed to be his work profile.


Acht of the Einzberns, the family that began the Grail War, in the first place, would disagree, which is a large part of why he hired Kiritsugu in the first place. If anything he and the Magic Association would be more privy to Kiritsugu’s technological solutions than the standard magical ones. Why? Because the only actual rule in the Grail War is to keep up the magical masquerade, so while no one’s going to care about the use of a technological solution to kill someone, in front of muggles, they’re going to send people like Bazette after you if you do the same with the use of magic. The Association would not have stood idle if Kiritsugu had used magic to blow up that hotel.

Anyway, while Saber is one of my favorite Nasuverse characters, even I think that her “honor code” is an illogical mess that doesn’t translate well into the modern age. But that’s part of what makes her a round, complex character, instead of a perfect Mary Sue.
Modified by LunarMoon, 05-19-12, 6:10 PM
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05-19-12, 6:07 PM

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First, Acht makes Zouken look like a man of principles.


LunarMoon said:
If anything he and the Magic Association would be more privy to Kiritsugu’s technological solutions than the standard magical ones. Why? Because the only actual rule in the Grail War is to keep up the magical masquerade, so while no one’s going to care about the use of a technological solution to kill someone, in front of muggles, they’re going to send people like Bazette after you if you do the same with the use of magic. The Association would not have stood idle if Kiritsugu had used magic to blow up that hotel.


Eh, magi find Kiritsugu's methods distasteful. Don't you remember Tokiomi's reaction? He is described as the most traditional magus as magus go (go for the Root).

LunarMoon said:
Anyway, while Saber is one of my favorite Nasuverse characters, even I think that her “honor code” is an illogical mess that doesn’t translate well into the modern age. But that’s part of what makes her a round, complex character, instead of a perfect Mary Sue.


The entire point of Kiritsugu's character is that he screwed up. Saber's code is actually fine. Her only mistake is thinking she made a mistake and she has to rewrite the past to 'fix' it: she blames herself too much. Isn't that the basis of Fate route? While Kiritsugu's mistake is that everything he did is in fact a mistake and wishes for Shirou to not be like that.

Topgunuk69 said:
And do we actually know that Maiya was his mistress? I don't recall reading anything in the LN to confirm that (remind me if you do it's quite possible I've forgotten) and the kiss early in the show (which when I saw it initially did made me think she was his mistress) never actually led to anything and was explained in the novel as Maiya trying to distract him from unnecessary thoughts and nothing more.


It's in CM that Kiritsugu cheated on Irisviel with Maiya which he considered a "betrayal of his wife's love."
 
05-19-12, 6:15 PM

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Hydnlife said:
NOOOO MAIYA NOOOOOOOOO WHY SHE HAVE TO DIE, DAMN YOU RIDER.


i have the same reaction, Maiya should have live, i like her
 
05-19-12, 6:18 PM

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Hydnlife said:
NOOOO MAIYA NOOOOOOOOO WHY SHE HAVE TO DIE, DAMN YOU RIDER.


This made me chuckle for some reason.
 
05-19-12, 6:19 PM

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Thess said:
First, Acht makes Zouken look like a man of principles.


LunarMoon said:
If anything he and the Magic Association would be more privy to Kiritsugu’s technological solutions than the standard magical ones. Why? Because the only actual rule in the Grail War is to keep up the magical masquerade, so while no one’s going to care about the use of a technological solution to kill someone, in front of muggles, they’re going to send people like Bazette after you if you do the same with the use of magic. The Association would not have stood idle if Kiritsugu had used magic to blow up that hotel.


Eh, magi find Kiritsugu's methods distasteful. Don't you remember Tokiomi's reaction? He is described as the most traditional magus as magus go (go for the Root).

LunarMoon said:
Anyway, while Saber is one of my favorite Nasuverse characters, even I think that her “honor code” is an illogical mess that doesn’t translate well into the modern age. But that’s part of what makes her a round, complex character, instead of a perfect Mary Sue.


The entire point of Kiritsugu's character is that he screwed up. Saber's code is actually fine. Her only mistake is thinking she made a mistake and she has to rewrite the past to 'fix' it: she blames herself too much. Isn't that the basis of Fate route? While Kiritsugu's mistake is that everything he did is in fact a mistake and wishes for Shirou to not be like that.


Again I dont sse how nobility and chivalry make war better.At least kiritsugu knows that he is fucked up while she goes "no we have honor and shit..." .Killing is killing ,murder is murder and war is war mot matter the methods you use something Arturia fails to understand.I dont see how she is fine at all
Modified by Othi-tan, 05-19-12, 6:24 PM
 
05-19-12, 6:20 PM

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Thess said:
It's in CM that Kiritsugu cheated on Irisviel with Maiya which he considered a "betrayal of his wife's love."


That's the kind of thing they really shouldn't leave to additional materials.
 
05-19-12, 6:26 PM

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Thess said:
First, Acht makes Zouken look like a man of principles.


I'd say he's pretty competent. He's been the head of the Einzbern family for God knows how long, considering his age, and the Einzberns are regarded as one of the great families. He's actually managed to keep his family magically potent unlike the other founding family, the Makiri, and his family is far more respectable than low-level clans like the Velvets or Emiyas. As for how he is morally? Well, he's a typical magus, along with all that entails.

Thess said:
Eh, magi find Kiritsugu's methods distasteful. Don't you remember Tokiomi's reaction? He is described as the most traditional magus as magus go (go for the Root).


On a personal basis, sure, but in terms of what they actually act upon, they'd prefer for Kiritsugu to use his sniper rifle.

Saber's code is actually fine. Her only mistake is thinking she made a mistake and she has to rewrite the past to 'fix' it: she blames herself too much. Isn't that the basis of Fate route? While Kiritsugu's mistake is that everything he did is in fact a mistake and wishes for Shirou to not be like that.


No, it really isn't. At the very least, I doubt that Urobuchi would be idealistic enough to support Saber's honor code, especially given how he treated Lancer. Saber was lucky; which is more than can be said for anyone else who rode off to war, willing to kill and die for that impractical ideal.
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05-19-12, 6:29 PM

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Man so glad i finished eating before the part with Berseker..and Kiritsugu seems to lose everyone close to the poor guy :C.

i just don't get why rider Kidnapped her?! that doesn't seem like something he would do
 
05-19-12, 6:38 PM

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katsu044 said:
Man so glad i finished eating before the part with Berseker..and Kiritsugu seems to lose everyone close to the poor guy :C.

i just don't get why rider Kidnapped her?! that doesn't seem like something he would do


Good that is how you should feel waiting for the next ep....
 
05-19-12, 7:27 PM

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25 minutes of pure awesomeness,I'm totally speechless. 5/5
 
05-19-12, 8:04 PM

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Topgunuk69 said:
That's the kind of thing they really shouldn't leave to additional materials.


The novel isn't showing erotic scenes. They just imply them. I don't think Gen would like to write half of the cast having sex.

LunarMoon said:
I'd say he's pretty competent.



Sure. That's why they have the Third Magic back! And why their ideas always work. Except they never do.

Topgunuk69 said:
On a personal basis, sure, but in terms of what they actually act upon, they'd prefer for Kiritsugu to use his sniper rifle.


Not really. Do you see the Clock Tower fond of him?

Topgunuk69 said:
No, it really isn't. At the very least, I doubt that Urobuchi would be idealistic enough to support Saber's honor code, especially given how he treated Lancer. Saber was lucky; which is more than can be said for anyone else who rode off to war, willing to kill and die for that impractical ideal.


It doesn't matter what Gen wants. This is Nasuverse.



ssjokg said:
Again I dont sse how nobility and chivalry make war better.At least kiritsugu knows that he is fucked up while she goes "no we have honor and shit..." .Killing is killing ,murder is murder and war is war mot matter the methods you use something Arturia fails to understand.I dont see how she is fine at all


You can't treat the Nasuverse as the real world. Ideals become the ultimate Beam Spam attack (that's Excalibur). The one time that Saber wasn't chivalrous, Caliburn broke. What does Kiritsugu's dirty play becomes? Nothing.

Kiritsugu wasn't speaking a real 'truth'. If you read the novels, he's acting like a petulant child in that scene because he's even more idealistic than Saber herself but he's bitter about it.
Modified by Thess, 05-19-12, 8:12 PM
 
05-19-12, 8:07 PM

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Saber vs Rider next episode. I thought we'd have to wait longer for some action, but I guess not. Hopefully they won't gimp it and the upcoming ones.

 
05-19-12, 8:09 PM

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Zyglrox said:


 
05-19-12, 8:29 PM

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It's about time someone gets it: everyone is living in his or her own ideals. That is how a human lives. No Heroic Spirits or Masters in this series is an exception. Even Gilgamesh and Kirei live with their ideals.

Clearly, Kiritsugu knows this and this is what makes his character interesting. Same with the honor and chivalry of Saber.
bla bla bla
The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.
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05-19-12, 8:36 PM

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Topgunuk69 said:
Thess said:
It's in CM that Kiritsugu cheated on Irisviel with Maiya which he considered a "betrayal of his wife's love."


That's the kind of thing they really shouldn't leave to additional materials.


Yeah I agree with Topgunuk69. I kind of wish this was confirmed because I totally didn't see Maiya as Kiritsugu's mistress, which made me so confused why you started saying that she is. I know she kissed Kiritsugu back in season 1 but I thought it was only to get Kiritsugu back in focus. I admit the kissing scene is still bizarre to me but anyhow I always thought the relationship between Kiritsugu and Maiya was just...him using her as a tool to fulfill his plans.

Do you have link or access to that specific CM?

Thess said:
Zyglrox said:




 
05-19-12, 8:39 PM

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Well I was expecting some action since the last few eps have been a bit slow in that respect.. (though still great ofc). I'm just bummed I have to wait another week now for pure awesome. I still enjoyed the ep and I'm really interested to see the rest of Kariya's story.

Maiya's death was so sudden :'(. Go get em Kerry.
 
05-19-12, 8:41 PM

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sallym613 said:
Thess said:
Zyglrox said:






Loved the episode and, like usual, it felt like it was over in half the length of any regular episode. Seriously, boring? Hah. What?

Great dialogue as always and it got really exciting and sad towards the end. I nearly got teary-eyed a couple of times; when Iri was talking about how she wanted Kiritsugu and Saber to win in order to give Illya a future, and when Maiya was dying.

The remaining episodes should satisfy people who are only here for the action...
 
05-19-12, 8:51 PM

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Thess said:
Topgunuk69 said:
That's the kind of thing they really shouldn't leave to additional materials.


The novel isn't showing erotic scenes. They just imply them. I don't think Gen would like to write half of the cast having sex.


It's not as if he'd have to write a descriptive hentai scene (not that he's a stranger to that kind of thing), it could've been something as simple as a passing mention or a scene with them going to bed or waking up together, considering the fact he often goes into painstaking detail describing stuff that's ultimately unimportant like the V-Max I'd have thought something like this would warrant some page space.

And as for the comment about half the cast having sex, honestly I got no vibe that any of the other cast members were having sex at all I mean you'd really have to want it to be true to come to that conclusion from reading the LN as far as I'm concerned, and if it's confirmed elsewhere like the Maiya thing then frankly I'm glad it wasn't there in the text because it just doesn't fit with the relationships we're actually shown.

One of the things I like about F/Z is that it isn't constrained by the fact that it's an eroge like F/SN so there's no need to shoehorn awkward sex in there. That's cheapened for me somewhat by the possibility that in the background there's apparently a secret orgy going on.
 
05-19-12, 8:53 PM

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stAtic91 said:
Great dialogue as always and it got really exciting and sad towards the end. I nearly got teary-eyed a couple of times; when Iri was talking about how she wanted Kiritsugu and Saber to win in order to give Illya a future, and when Maiya was dying.


Same here. Especially when Maiya is dying and Kiritsugu was crying.

Based on the next preview, if they did that certain scene
right, I am so going to need tissues.
 
05-19-12, 8:58 PM

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stAtic91 said:
Dask said:
So boring
Boring is the last word I would use to describe an episode of Fate/Zero. Not enough action for you this episode?



i think people still think this is gonna be a shounen tournament anime lmao
 
05-19-12, 9:06 PM

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A return to the dialogue. Ridiculously good still.
 
05-19-12, 9:07 PM

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Thess said:
Sure. That's why they have the Third Magic back! And why their ideas always work. Except they never do.

Acht does extremely well for himself. Throughout the four Grail Wars 56 people, 28 masters and 28 servants, have attempted to obtain the grail.


Not really. Do you see the Clock Tower fond of him?

Again, on a bureacratic and practical basis, not on a personal one. The only enforced rule in the Grail Wars is to avoid the reveal of magic to the muggle community, and unless any other stated rules exist or unless Word of God states otherwise, then no more exist, and to suggest otherwise is mere conjecture. You cannot cheat unless a rule is stated; Kiritsugu is just being clever, while thinking outside the box.

It doesn't matter what Gen wants. This is Nasuverse.


Gen is ultimately the author, which is why it's stylistically different from Fate/Stay Night and why many people view Fate/Zero as a Urobuchi work, more so than a Nasu work. Thus why there are people who hate Nasu and love Fate/Zero.




Had he been successful, kiss the world goodbye in twenty years.




sallym613 said:
Based on the next preview, if they did that certain scene
right, I am so going to need tissues.


Modified by LunarMoon, 05-19-12, 9:31 PM
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05-19-12, 9:53 PM

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it's hard to care for Maiya in the anime because her conversations with Iri is not as fleshed out in the novel.. they had to cut out some of the details everytime she speaks to and/or is with her and it turns out that to me, Maiya is less appealing in the anime.. she's a favorite character of mine in the novel, and Maiya plus Iri are actually the two characters that have the best chemistry when together, rivaling that of Kirei plus Gil.. here, she's but a mere doll who just knows a lot of and follows Kiritsugu and serve only as a comparison with Iri on how they perceive the same man.. still, what they did in the anime for her is enough..

anyway, goodbye again, Maiya..
 
05-19-12, 9:57 PM

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How'd Saber suit back up? When she materializes her armor, she loses her previously equipped set of clothing -- or at least that how it was in Fate/Stay Night.

I have nothing to say about this episode. I don't expect it to not meet my expectations.

Can't wait for what's coming.

hi
 
05-19-12, 10:02 PM

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LunarMoon said:
sallym613 said:
Based on the next preview, if they did that certain scene
right, I am so going to need tissues.




 
05-19-12, 10:40 PM

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Yanoflies said:
How'd Saber suit back up? When she materializes her armor, she loses her previously equipped set of clothing -- or at least that how it was in Fate/Stay Night.


Fate/Zero ep.6
Simplistic beauty can't be appreciated by someone who looks for something grand in everything he watch.
 
05-19-12, 10:48 PM

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This episode wasn't as good as the previous episodes, but it did have some good scenes. I can't believe Rider kidnapped Iri and killed Maiya. I have a feeling that it wasn't him. I'm looking forward to Iskander vs Saber
Modified by Ragna92, 05-19-12, 10:57 PM
 
05-19-12, 10:52 PM

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Thess said:
Zyglrox said:




Oh shush we all know its

 
05-19-12, 11:12 PM

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Thess said:
Topgunuk69 said:
That's the kind of thing they really shouldn't leave to additional materials.


The novel isn't showing erotic scenes. They just imply them. I don't think Gen would like to write half of the cast having sex.



Yeah, rather he would write something like they start making out and then... for whathever reason someone ends death with the guts outside. Thats our Urobuchi


And for the episode, mmmmm the few lines about Sakura are kinda.... gghhhh, dammit worms of hell, she's just a lil' girl. And miss the deceiver... mmm aka Kirei (or he's the one behind the scenes... just sayin')
 
05-19-12, 11:22 PM

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Topgunuk69 said:
And as for the comment about half the cast having sex, honestly I got no vibe that any of the other cast members were having sex at all I mean you'd really have to want it to be true to come to that conclusion from reading the LN as far as I'm concerned, and if it's confirmed elsewhere like the Maiya thing then frankly I'm glad it wasn't there in the text because it just doesn't fit with the relationships we're actually shown.


Had Gen wanted to include on page sex scenes: Kariya would have gotten raped by Berserker instead of blood drinking, had this be the 'eroge' version rather than the RN version (this was the same as Rider's sex dream of Shirou, it became a blood sucking one in the 'clean' version). Well, hell, even in the official art version of the scene it does look like rape. Poor guy, would the suffering ever stop? ;_;

Knowing the official manga that had no censorship issues with Sakura, Rider and Caster stuff, I am sure they are going to adapt this in all its non-consensual "glory." :(

Rider and Caster would have most likely had sex with their respective Masters (hell, Rider would have sex up Kayneth too, according to goddamn Gen, if he had been his Master), too. Also those little boys in Caster's grasp would have been raped.

But I'm glad there weren't any sex scenes. On page at least... I can't imagine how hilarious the writing would be.

Since many others asked. Fate/Zero Material page 102:

"For Kiritsugu the sacrificing of his wife for the completion of the Holy Grail would be a "betrayal of his wife's love", no matter what anyone said, so he needed to be able to commit that betrayal without hesitation. His physical relationship with Maiya was practice of betrayal for him, and a form of self-harm in order to strenghten himself. As an excuse for adultery it's pretty low, but because Maiya herself had no problem with it it became a negative spiral. Shirou should not learn anything about women from this Dad."
Modified by Thess, 05-20-12, 12:17 AM
 
05-19-12, 11:25 PM

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Just when I was thinking when and how Maiya would die it happened... what a coincidence.
Good episode, can't wait for next one.

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05-20-12, 12:18 AM

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It was a great episode, I remember it being more emotional in the LN or maybe the effect just gets weaker the second time around :S

Can't wait for all the action that's coming around the corner!
“I’m tired of all the nonsense about beauty being only skin-deep. That’s deep enough. What do you want – an adorable pancreas?”

 
05-20-12, 3:11 AM

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They did a fucking good job at fleshing out the characters. Thus, everyone should know that this was not Rider, for he would not use kidnapping as a means to win.
 
05-20-12, 3:41 AM

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Selesnija said:
They did a fucking good job at fleshing out the characters. Thus, everyone should know that this was not Rider, for he would not use kidnapping as a means to win.
It's obviously Hassan. Even the title of the episode is "Return of the Assassin..."

 
05-20-12, 5:24 AM

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Yanoflies said:
How'd Saber suit back up? When she materializes her armor, she loses her previously equipped set of clothing -- or at least that how it was in Fate/Stay Night.

I have nothing to say about this episode. I don't expect it to not meet my expectations.

Can't wait for what's coming.
Not true, only when she does it in a rush. In F/SN Rin chides Saber because she went headfirst into battle when Shirou summoned her and destroyed her clothes in the forced materialization. While yeah it is a little of a change (they were both materializations by COmmand Spell) you can still argue that in Stay Night's case she actually went head in to battle from 3 floors up and at abnormal speed, with a very heavy impact to boot. Here she pretty much just casually materializes in the shed.

LunarMoon said:
Gen is ultimately the author, which is why it's stylistically different from Fate/Stay Night and why many people view Fate/Zero as a Urobuchi work, more so than a Nasu work. Thus why there are people who hate Nasu and love Fate/Zero.
I think you missed the point completely. By saying "this is Nasuverse" in response to Saber's entire story and thematic behind it we mean that Nasu DOES NOT, AT ANY POINT, gives up Saber's main story over to Gen. Saber is Nasu's creation and what he wrote for her stays no matter how much Gen would love to break her. Nasu wrote a story of redemption and glorification for her and that's what ultimately remains. In the end she even travels to Avalon as a reward, if that's not an embelishment for her life of idealism, then nothing is. Nasu also glorified Shirou's ideals in Fate no matter the route he took. So, you can say whatever you want about Gen doing this and that to Lancer and Berserker and so on but Saber's story is ultimately defined by her reward in Fate/Stay Night. Her tribulations in Zero were rewarded in Stay Night by a Master that treated her as just a person (not as a King, Knight or Servant) and the knwoledge that she didn't fail her country, that she did all she could and no one could blame her for being human and making mistakes.

 
05-20-12, 5:55 AM

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Thess said:
Rider and Caster would have most likely had sex with their respective Masters (hell, Rider would have sex up Kayneth too, according to goddamn Gen, if he had been his Master), too. Also those little boys in Caster's grasp would have been raped.

But I'm glad there weren't any sex scenes. On page at least... I can't imagine how hilarious the writing would be.


Well it depends on what you're saying there.

I mean Rider and Caster being willing to have sex with their masters fits with the historical figures they represent (as does Caster's raping little boys) but the idea that they were having sex with them doesn't fit with the Master's characters or the character relationships we're shown.

It hardly seems like sex with Caster would interest Uryuu, and when they both have a stream of children to abuse I don't think either of them would've been left wanting each other's company (in that way).

Waver swinging that way doesn't seem like a stretch, but him having sex with Rider at any point during the story certainly does, there is no place you could insert a sex scene between them without it completely jarring with the relationship they build over the course of the LN/show.

As for Kayneth, well it could be that once again Rider would be willing, but do you seriously think Kayneth would be?

The man's devoted to Sola-Ui, is everyone in modern society conveniently bi and completely open to the idea of casual sex all of a sudden?

As for Kariya being raped by Berserker, that one fits, because the atmosphere was suitably rapey anyway and it wouldn't violate any relationship that we're shown since theirs doesn't really extend far beyond Kariya providing him with mana and Berserker occasionally doing what he says.
 
05-20-12, 8:00 AM

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They killed Maiya..... :(
 
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