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Fate/Zero 2nd Season Episode 7 Discussion
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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero 2nd Season Episode 7 Discussion
5 out of 5: Loved it!
 
214 69.48%
4 out of 5: Liked it
 
60 19.48%
3 out of 5: It was OK
 
25 8.12%
2 out of 5: Disliked it
 
5 1.62%
1 out of 5: Hated it
 
4 1.30%
Voters: 308

05-19-12, 3:09 PM
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And kidnapping Irisviel just doesn't seem like the sort of thing that Iskander would do. In some ways he has almost fatherly attitudes towards both Waiver and Saber. He wants to teach Saber a lesson, but he wants to do it by beating her on the battlefield. I'm curious to see which of the remaining heroic spirits or masters is still playing "let's you and him fight".
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05-19-12, 3:17 PM

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Thess said:
Yumekichi11 said:
And I understand your confusion but it was to precise that if Alexander REALLY but really wants to do something, he ain't even going to tell anyone. He will go and fight shit instead of involving his army if he wants to do it alone. That's basically it IRL Alexander. I spoke to some scholars of him.


Uh ok. RL Alexander =/= Nasuverse Alexander. Or is King Arthur a little girl and Gilgamesh some bishounen guido? Also, which scholars are you even quoting?
Yeah I know but Fiction VS Reality is do much more fun when clearly IRL elements are present. That being said, I am not quoting them but in general speak of the theme of Alexander the Great's Lifestyle and what of it. Still vague even in 2012. There are no empirical evidence that say much of his privacy but I will stop there. Derailing thread is never good.

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05-19-12, 4:08 PM

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Maya's background as a child soldier wasn't surprising, and the lack of development dampens the effects of her death, whatever was intended. After a two episode exposition on Kiritsugu, I expected more than a few minutes on Maiya's connection to him. What was interesting was contrasting Maiya's views on Kiritsugu with that of Irisviel's, and perhaps more interestingly, with that of Shirou later on. Rider's regret is similar to that of Saber's, and at the same time very different, so their clash should be interesting.
Modified by MissileSoup, 05-19-12, 4:55 PM
 
05-19-12, 4:21 PM

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sallym613 said:
Also, in addition to what Thess says, Rider specifically said that he wouldnt be able to recover completely until nighttime. He might be very honest, open and eager to battle, but he's not completely reckless. He knows that if he really wants to fight Saber and show that he's right and she's wrong, he would definitely make sure he's on top shape before doing that. Especially if he's going against her with the possibility of her using Excalibur.

And kidnapping Irisviel before healing completely isn't exactly the best thing to do, especially since doing that will guarantee a clash with Saber.


He didn't even acknolwedge Saber who he claimed to fight.
 
05-19-12, 4:34 PM

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So...what exactly is going on between Maiya and Kiritsugu? Is she Kiritsugu's mistress?
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05-19-12, 4:50 PM

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FeatherNinja said:
So...what exactly is going on between Maiya and Kiritsugu? Is she Kiritsugu's mistress?


She is his mistress and tool.

Also important difference of the novel. In this bit, Kiritsugu was trying to kill Waver, using Saber as a bait to lure out the Master and Servant. She realized his intention and wanted to avoid it. He wasn't after Tokiomi Tohsaka. He followed Saber to snipe Waver in his cowardly fashion.

I guess they are either trying to speed things up or make him look better than his novel characterization. That's why they cut how his father hugged him in concern and he immediately shot him knowing how much his daddy loves him in episode 18 for the same reason.
Modified by Thess, 05-19-12, 4:59 PM
 
05-19-12, 5:19 PM

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Thess said:
sallym613 said:
Also, in addition to what Thess says, Rider specifically said that he wouldnt be able to recover completely until nighttime. He might be very honest, open and eager to battle, but he's not completely reckless. He knows that if he really wants to fight Saber and show that he's right and she's wrong, he would definitely make sure he's on top shape before doing that. Especially if he's going against her with the possibility of her using Excalibur.

And kidnapping Irisviel before healing completely isn't exactly the best thing to do, especially since doing that will guarantee a clash with Saber.


He didn't even acknolwedge Saber who he claimed to fight.


It'll be explained in next episode. Trust me. All things will be cleared.
 
05-19-12, 5:21 PM

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Thess said:
FeatherNinja said:
So...what exactly is going on between Maiya and Kiritsugu? Is she Kiritsugu's mistress?


She is his mistress and tool.

Also important difference of the novel. In this bit, Kiritsugu was trying to kill Waver, using Saber as a bait to lure out the Master and Servant. She realized his intention and wanted to avoid it. He wasn't after Tokiomi Tohsaka. He followed Saber to snipe Waver in his cowardly fashion.


Well, if sniping an enemy is cowardly than U.S. Marine snipers must be cowardly as well, according to that logic. I'm going to have to disagree, on that. Anyway, I fail to see how killing Waver is any worse than killing Tokiomi. They both entered the Grail War, knowing full well that they'd be endangering their lives, a point that Waver vocally accepted in this very episode.
Modified by LunarMoon, 05-19-12, 5:26 PM
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05-19-12, 5:31 PM

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LunarMoon said:
Well, if sniping an enemy is cowardly than U.S. Marine snipers must be cowardly as well, according to that logic. I'm going to have to disagree, on that. Anyway, I fail to see how killing Waver is any worse than killing Tokiomi. They both entered the Grail War, knowing full well that they'd be endangering their lives, a point that Waver vocally accepted in this very episode.


Saber strongly disagrees. She feels more cautious and hostile against her "ally" than her enemies. She's right. It's a battle of magi. Waver signed up for that: MAGIC. He's using guns. He's a coward who uses underhanded methods. That's supposed to be his work profile.

Had he been successful, kiss the world goodbye in twenty years.


Code_Alchemy said:
He didn't even acknolwedge Saber who he claimed to fight.


Heh. I know. I'm wondering how could people not notice.
Modified by Thess, 05-19-12, 5:35 PM
 
05-19-12, 5:32 PM

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Yeah I'd say sniping is pretty cowardly in any situation. Killing someone without any chance for them to retaliate from a safe and sound distance. That being that literally stabbing someone in the back isn't much better... but if somehow Tousaka survived that he could have atleast had a chance to retaliate. Why use U.S soldiers in particular... you think U.S marines are the only people who can use a sniper rifle?
 
05-19-12, 5:46 PM

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Thess said:
FeatherNinja said:
So...what exactly is going on between Maiya and Kiritsugu? Is she Kiritsugu's mistress?


She is his mistress and tool.

Also important difference of the novel. In this bit, Kiritsugu was trying to kill Waver, using Saber as a bait to lure out the Master and Servant. She realized his intention and wanted to avoid it. He wasn't after Tokiomi Tohsaka. He followed Saber to snipe Waver in his cowardly fashion.

I guess they are either trying to speed things up or make him look better than his novel characterization. That's why they cut how his father hugged him in concern and he immediately shot him knowing how much his daddy loves him in episode 18 for the same reason.


If they were trying to make Kiritsugu look more likable with that scene I think they'd have had him kill his father instantly as he did in the novel, rather than stab him in the belly first, which hug or no hug definitely didn't serve to endear Kiritsugu to me any more than the way it happened in the Novel.

And do we actually know that Maiya was his mistress? I don't recall reading anything in the LN to confirm that (remind me if you do it's quite possible I've forgotten) and the kiss early in the show (which when I saw it initially did make me think she was his mistress) never actually led to anything and was explained in the novel as Maiya trying to distract him from unnecessary thoughts and nothing more.

I mean I think it's possible and perhaps even probable that they did get intimate prior to Kiritsugu's relationship with Irisviel but from that point onwards I don't think he'd have done anything with her (aside from the kiss he didn't resist).
Modified by TopgunUK, 05-19-12, 6:13 PM
 
05-19-12, 5:48 PM

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NOOOO MAIYA NOOOOOOOOO WHY SHE HAVE TO DIE, DAMN YOU RIDER.


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05-19-12, 5:50 PM

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Thess do you believe in nobility and chivalry belong in WAR or that they make it any better too?Noble or not ,underhanded or not it doesnt matter in a war.And it's a battle for the grail not magi.Anyone as longs the grail allows it(Ryuunusuke, Kireix2) can enter.Dying by magic isnt any batter than any gun Kiritsugu has.And unless I am wrong magic IS more powerful than guns,knives and bombs.Example: Kayneth .If not for the Origin bullet Kiritsugu would have died from his magic.And before you say that he used a gun for that,Kayneth knew his unorthodox ways of fighting and did a pretty good job defending against him.
And Waver at this point knows the same things Kiritsugu does
Modified by HentaiPriest, 05-19-12, 5:55 PM
 
05-19-12, 5:53 PM

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bottosai-01 said:
Yeah I'd say sniping is pretty cowardly in any situation. Killing someone without any chance for them to retaliate from a safe and sound distance. That being that literally stabbing someone in the back isn't much better... but if somehow Tousaka survived that he could have atleast had a chance to retaliate. Why use U.S soldiers in particular... you think U.S marines are the only people who can use a sniper rifle?


Nope. But it's a specific example rather than a vague, general one. So with that said, would you make the claim that every member of the U.S. Marines, trained as a sniper, is a coward? I certainly wouldn't.

Saber strongly disagrees. She feels more cautious and hostile against her "ally" than her enemies. She's right. It's a battle of magi. Waver signed up for that: MAGIC. He's using guns. He's a coward who uses underhanded methods. That's supposed to be his work profile.


Acht of the Einzberns, the family that began the Grail War, in the first place, would disagree, which is a large part of why he hired Kiritsugu in the first place. If anything he and the Magic Association would be more privy to Kiritsugu’s technological solutions than the standard magical ones. Why? Because the only actual rule in the Grail War is to keep up the magical masquerade, so while no one’s going to care about the use of a technological solution to kill someone, in front of muggles, they’re going to send people like Bazette after you if you do the same with the use of magic. The Association would not have stood idle if Kiritsugu had used magic to blow up that hotel.

Anyway, while Saber is one of my favorite Nasuverse characters, even I think that her “honor code” is an illogical mess that doesn’t translate well into the modern age. But that’s part of what makes her a round, complex character, instead of a perfect Mary Sue.
Modified by LunarMoon, 05-19-12, 6:10 PM
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05-19-12, 6:07 PM

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First, Acht makes Zouken look like a man of principles.


LunarMoon said:
If anything he and the Magic Association would be more privy to Kiritsugu’s technological solutions than the standard magical ones. Why? Because the only actual rule in the Grail War is to keep up the magical masquerade, so while no one’s going to care about the use of a technological solution to kill someone, in front of muggles, they’re going to send people like Bazette after you if you do the same with the use of magic. The Association would not have stood idle if Kiritsugu had used magic to blow up that hotel.


Eh, magi find Kiritsugu's methods distasteful. Don't you remember Tokiomi's reaction? He is described as the most traditional magus as magus go (go for the Root).

LunarMoon said:
Anyway, while Saber is one of my favorite Nasuverse characters, even I think that her “honor code” is an illogical mess that doesn’t translate well into the modern age. But that’s part of what makes her a round, complex character, instead of a perfect Mary Sue.


The entire point of Kiritsugu's character is that he screwed up. Saber's code is actually fine. Her only mistake is thinking she made a mistake and she has to rewrite the past to 'fix' it: she blames herself too much. Isn't that the basis of Fate route? While Kiritsugu's mistake is that everything he did is in fact a mistake and wishes for Shirou to not be like that.

Topgunuk69 said:
And do we actually know that Maiya was his mistress? I don't recall reading anything in the LN to confirm that (remind me if you do it's quite possible I've forgotten) and the kiss early in the show (which when I saw it initially did made me think she was his mistress) never actually led to anything and was explained in the novel as Maiya trying to distract him from unnecessary thoughts and nothing more.


It's in CM that Kiritsugu cheated on Irisviel with Maiya which he considered a "betrayal of his wife's love."
 
05-19-12, 6:15 PM

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Hydnlife said:
NOOOO MAIYA NOOOOOOOOO WHY SHE HAVE TO DIE, DAMN YOU RIDER.


i have the same reaction, Maiya should have live, i like her
 
05-19-12, 6:18 PM

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Hydnlife said:
NOOOO MAIYA NOOOOOOOOO WHY SHE HAVE TO DIE, DAMN YOU RIDER.


This made me chuckle for some reason.
 
05-19-12, 6:19 PM

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Thess said:
First, Acht makes Zouken look like a man of principles.


LunarMoon said:
If anything he and the Magic Association would be more privy to Kiritsugu’s technological solutions than the standard magical ones. Why? Because the only actual rule in the Grail War is to keep up the magical masquerade, so while no one’s going to care about the use of a technological solution to kill someone, in front of muggles, they’re going to send people like Bazette after you if you do the same with the use of magic. The Association would not have stood idle if Kiritsugu had used magic to blow up that hotel.


Eh, magi find Kiritsugu's methods distasteful. Don't you remember Tokiomi's reaction? He is described as the most traditional magus as magus go (go for the Root).

LunarMoon said:
Anyway, while Saber is one of my favorite Nasuverse characters, even I think that her “honor code” is an illogical mess that doesn’t translate well into the modern age. But that’s part of what makes her a round, complex character, instead of a perfect Mary Sue.


The entire point of Kiritsugu's character is that he screwed up. Saber's code is actually fine. Her only mistake is thinking she made a mistake and she has to rewrite the past to 'fix' it: she blames herself too much. Isn't that the basis of Fate route? While Kiritsugu's mistake is that everything he did is in fact a mistake and wishes for Shirou to not be like that.


Again I dont sse how nobility and chivalry make war better.At least kiritsugu knows that he is fucked up while she goes "no we have honor and shit..." .Killing is killing ,murder is murder and war is war mot matter the methods you use something Arturia fails to understand.I dont see how she is fine at all
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05-19-12, 6:20 PM

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Thess said:
It's in CM that Kiritsugu cheated on Irisviel with Maiya which he considered a "betrayal of his wife's love."


That's the kind of thing they really shouldn't leave to additional materials.
 
05-19-12, 6:26 PM

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Thess said:
First, Acht makes Zouken look like a man of principles.


I'd say he's pretty competent. He's been the head of the Einzbern family for God knows how long, considering his age, and the Einzberns are regarded as one of the great families. He's actually managed to keep his family magically potent unlike the other founding family, the Makiri, and his family is far more respectable than low-level clans like the Velvets or Emiyas. As for how he is morally? Well, he's a typical magus, along with all that entails.

Thess said:
Eh, magi find Kiritsugu's methods distasteful. Don't you remember Tokiomi's reaction? He is described as the most traditional magus as magus go (go for the Root).


On a personal basis, sure, but in terms of what they actually act upon, they'd prefer for Kiritsugu to use his sniper rifle.

Saber's code is actually fine. Her only mistake is thinking she made a mistake and she has to rewrite the past to 'fix' it: she blames herself too much. Isn't that the basis of Fate route? While Kiritsugu's mistake is that everything he did is in fact a mistake and wishes for Shirou to not be like that.


No, it really isn't. At the very least, I doubt that Urobuchi would be idealistic enough to support Saber's honor code, especially given how he treated Lancer. Saber was lucky; which is more than can be said for anyone else who rode off to war, willing to kill and die for that impractical ideal.
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Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan!
 
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