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THIS IS A MANGA ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING BEYOND THIS CHAPTER.
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Jack talking to Alice to have the world and Abyss connected, but the Alice inside the body said impossible.

Alice vs. Oz, or rather Jack who holds control of Oz and wanting Alice to leave him. And the saying about the shot about Lacie with the chain.

Barma reminding about Jack as a human from another world. While in his memory, Miranda, a woman who kind of looks like Barma, mentioned.

And that Jack in the memory with young Gil and young Vincent. Seeing them reminds him of Lacie and her brother, and used them to open the door to Abyss...

Vincent couldn't believe this fact. So... it' was Glen with Gil (servant) and Jack with Vincent (servant), not Gil as Jack's servant. Young Gil is really soooooooooooooooooo cute!!

So that's what Gil remembered and cannot forgive Jack for that.

This is really sad , gil T^T

OMG, a lot of emotions this chapter...
Jack psycho mode on. Oh damn, seems we´re gonna have a tough time between Jack x Alice, Jack is ready to fight her without hesitation...T___T no, wait, he is ready to kill her, so, I dont have any doubts he must be the one who previously killed her. oh damn you Jack... *Alice is in serious danger*

and UGH, Miranda and Jack together make a really creepy ambiance.

Secondly I melted two times, DIED AND RESUSCITATED with:

Glen with little Gil and Jack with little Vince was probably the most adorable cute scene in all PH manga.
I mean, I DIED seriously. Chibi Vince holding on to Jack, adorably clinging, and both smiling happily like father-son. SO FUCKING CUTE *sorry i cannot control myself* Vince reminds him of Lacie ;_;

and then Oswald with Chibi Gil, OMG, adorable patting his head.Another father-son moment.


and finally like predicted, Gil is so gonna "kill" Jack. Than gun is ready to shoot and the bloodied hand on the last page is obviously him reminding when Jack killed Oswald. Jack is now with full control over Oz´s body so i wonder if that will stop Gil...

So now officially Jack is the big villain and the brain behind all the tragedy...he used everyone (even Vince) and he doesnt give a damn for no one. T_T Never expected him to be such a psycho for Lacie.

and the weirdest thing of all, is that i still dont hate him. I hope he dies. but not without finding peace first and realizing all he did...

Well, I didn't read any translations, but I saw raws and got bits of pieces from what I can make out in the Japanese.

Jack continues to disappoint me. I don't hate him. He just... baffles me... His entire life was built around Lacie, and he has spent it learning the arts of empty pleasantries and deception. Now, with his life purpose ripped away, he's trying to salvage it the best he can to justify everything he went through and not break down completely.

But he doesn't need to do that. He finally has people who care about him, he finally has opportunities for meaningful relationships, he finally has everything he ever really wanted. Lacie was ultimately just a placeholder for his need to belong and be loved. There was nothing real about his connection to her. But he fixated on it, and his own fabricated feelings about it are very real, and he's letting them blind him.

So instead of accepting real interpersonal relationships, he's just using every trick he learned to screw everyone over for an imaginary relationship. I guess it's like Glen said: his heart was corrupted a long time ago.

I'm trying so very hard to find sympathetic depth here. If Jack shows no inner conflict, that'll be difficult to do. What's the takeaway message here? "There are just some people who are fucked up beyond redemption"? C'mon Jun... Jack was crying, Jack felt bad about Gil, Jack was agonized in his diary... gimme some depth here.

Poor Vincent. =/

As for Jack's relationship with Alice... maybe it depends on which Alice. He didn't feel comfortable around Black Alice. Or maybe I should just shut up and wait for a translation. :P

So every time the Intention used Alice's body it started to break more. Wow, that's kind of sad and she didn't want to merge the world and the Abyss because she knew it would kill her. However Jack wanted to meet her because he knew that in Alice's body she wasn't her true self. At least, the Core said that, so it may have been the Core that told Kevin/Break to save Alice and not her sister.

For anyone who may be interested. I have Part One, Part Two, and Part Three over at my Tumblr.

This chapter was great! It gave us some really wonderful insight into Miranda, Arthur, and even to Raymond Nightray. It shed even more light on the timeline of events for the Tragedy and the goals of everyone there. So, yes, more questions were cleared up and answered. Also, the stage is being set in the present as well. So, a lot of awesome stuff here!

thank you so much for the hard work!!!;)


And so it is confirmed: Jack used Vince and Gil T____T oh Jack whyyyyyyyyyy ;_;(although he didnt plan to use them when he saved them, he saved them because Vince reminded him of Lacie...but later..., oh Damn you Jack ;_;)
the parts of the Alyss, Alice and Core are so confusing to me... I dont know who is who and to whom belonged human body of Alice anymore...

and the quote "ll of this would have been better off it was a ridiculous fairytale" reminds that there was also a similar quote at the end of volume 1 of PH..."It all had to be a ridiculous fairy tale...written by someone´s hand".

You're welcome! I use these chapters as practice and I do it every month. : D Anyway, yes, Jack used Gil and Vincent as well as Alice/Alyss/The Core of the Abyss. As for who was speaking...I'm going to re-post my thoughts on this chapter that I posted on Tumblr (it mentions you at one point Orulyon, since I hadn't even thought about the connections between the "ridiculous fairy tale" lines, which was a really nice catch! ^^

Anyway, I'm going to place it under a spoiler tag because it is incredibly long!

i cant

I am only new here so please guide me and sorry if my english is in a wrong grammar. Uhm.. about the new chapter, i really love to see alice comes to the rescue of oz but felt sad because why she is not fighting back? Even if Oz is the real owner of the B-rabbit's power,i preffered that alice can still us it to fight back jack and protect herself.And i really wish too that leo will come out on their way and help alice fight jack because it's been so long since we have seen leo on the picture.About Gil, i think he will go and try to kill jack inside oz body and forget their friendship ( but i think that's not a theory but a wish to see). About Vincent,i think after he met jack through oz,he will need a long explanation for vincent and the baskervilles are all ready to fight jack and i think that pandora will be on baskervilles side just to stop jacks badass evil plan.But i do really hope of a scene wher oz will fatally wounded after they're fight and just a one year timeskip then he is back on the line but i do really hope to see oz real body because of the spreading picture ( i don't know if that is true) of a man with a bunny ears and a weird tattoo on his left cheek (black hair and red eyes)

Yeah, I really don't think that Gil will kill Oz. I don't know, it just didn't occur to me while I was reading the chapter.
As for Jack, well, I never thought he was 'actually nice omgzz guys, stop freaking out because of ch. 65' so I'm still not too shocked. I knew that people hoped he'd turn out to be a character that's too tragic to be hated and everything but come on. Yes, he is pretty tragic but his reasoning is completely off. I do hope he becomes more likeable to me at some point. I don't hate him or anything, but he's just way too manipulative and insane in a way that does not make me feel sorry for him in any way. Gah, I can't really describe how I feel about his character at the moment, and everything I wrote is only partly relevant to how I feel but I'll just leave it at that for now.

This, though. I just don't feel like there is enough depth in him. On the other hand, some people really are fucked up. Not every character has to actually have a good heart. We've already had a guy who appears bad but actually is not (Vincent). Now we're having a guy who appeared nice but is actually bad, it might be too much to make him a guy who seemed nice but turned out to be bad but turned out to be nice in the end. However, I just feel like he is being this stereotypical cartoon villain with a crappy reason for doing what he did. < There, I might have actually gotten to what I think.

It's not a matter of being "good" or "nice" for me. It's not even a matter of how tragic they are. I just expect characters to have depth. I have this expectation since every other major character in PH has depth. Depth involves having reasons that make sympathetic sense... to me that means that, were I in that character's shoes, I could see myself being willing to do the same thing.

Do I think Vincent's reasons are good? Or even logical? Nope. But I can wholly sympathize with why he is the way he is. I can see myself doing the same things he is if I had his childhood, his brother, his trauma. It's not a matter of whether I agree with him (since the current me would certainly not choose his path) but whether his motives are believable.

I can't do that with Jack right now. The stirrings for sympathy are there, but not enough to reach a point of being a well-rounded character, imo. I have great sympathy for needing a purpose in life, and for building your life around a loyalty whose reciprocation is uncertain. I know what that feels like. But I know firsthand it also comes with doubts. There should be conflict between his ideal and what is currently happening in his life; between his present relationships and the unattainable.

(Hell, Vincent's childhood was more traumatic than Jack's too, imo, so that's no excuse. Sure Vince had a brother and Jack had nobody, but Jack wasn't hated by everybody for his very existence, and didn't have to live with the idea that he's making his most beloved person's life miserable just by existing. Okay, maybe Jack whoring himself out as a kid could be pretty damn numbing, though. Tough call. =/)

Yes, he needs more depth. As I said, ''I just feel like he is being this stereotypical cartoon villain with a crappy reason for doing what he did.'' I expected more from Jun and I hope she'll improve him soon.
However, what I meant with the rest of my post is - sometimes there are people who simply do not allow you to feel much sympathy for them. That's just how it is in real life. Sometimes you cannot say 'Oh, any person would be like that in their shoes', but because this is a manga, and a manga with really amazing characters on top of that, it's normal to expect him to make symphatethic sense (like Vincent does, poor baby etc). I mean, I'm also waiting for him to start making sense. I'm just saying that it's sort of okay if it doesn't work out that way because it wouldn't be too unrealistic for him to stay like this. Yes, he'd feel like an unfinished character and I really wouldn't like that, but that's sort of because it's in human nature to always look for good/relatable sides in people, while there are individuals who function in ways that most of the others cannot comprehend. Though, as you said, he really doesn't feel like a well-rounded character at the moment.

Sorry if that doesn't make any sense, I'm tired.

Neiru2012 and GracefulDownfall is correct! This whole Pandora Series revolves around "Depths".All along,every character are having depths to another character that makes them do freaking things.But,Jack is so unreasonable for me (sorry for jack lovers),because i think he only misunderstood the message that Lacie would like to show him.Lacie didn't want to involve so many innocent people just to fill her loneliness and i think Lacie is wrong to that she trust Jack to understand her.On the other hand,i really love Oz and i'm really upset that Jack is controlling the body that Oz use for 25 years and make it do ridiculous things that he only want!! I remember Gil said about Oz heart that is beginning to break because of his traumatic event about his father's rejecting over him.I really wonder now,what will happen if his heart is already break because of the non-stop revelation about his being.I do really hope that in the next chapter,there would be a big fight!! I really miss fighting scenes because of all over flashback in so many previous chapter but i didn't say that i don not like flashback.Because of the flashback,so many questions that have been answered but the most question that i want to have an answer is:Who really killed Alice? but my theory is either Jack using a sword (they said that Jack is also good at sword) or Oz,the B-rabbit using his scythe (the cut on alice is the same as the cut on Glen (Oswald) when Jack summoned him.I really want also to know of who is the person that put a note on Liam's bandage and what is written on it. I have so many to say but this is just what i want to write now.See you,guys! ^^

OH,guys!!Currently,i'm drawing Oz as the b-rabbit but it don't have a color yet but i wish to show it to all of you after i finsh it ^^ . I hope you would like it ♥♥♥

Guys,can i have a question? I am writing an anime story,actually it is now season 2.I really want to post in on internet but i don't know where or what site can i put it.If anyone know,onegai!! please,post the link!! Arigatou,minna-san ^^

you mean a fanfiction? If its a fan story you can post it on fanfiction.net.



And well, Ive been reading the comments, and here it goes.
Im not trying to excuse Jack´s actions and attitudes. Actually I think he needs to die, because it seems the only way possible to stop his obsession and to save everyone and give him some peace of mind, cause he is clearly lacking that.

But unlike most of everyone, I can see and understand Jack. And although I dont love him like I used to, because like everyone said, he lacks depth now, and I hate that, still I cannot hate him and I can feel some sorry for him, actually I pity him the most because he is totally mindfucked and because of that he could never really realize that were people who cared for him besides Lacie. It was Lacie who "saved" him, it could have been a dog, a cat, an old man or a whore, it wouldnt mind, because he was just searching a reason to live, ALTHOUGH, he wanted to DIE. Its like you being in a hole in total darkness where you dont care about anything anymore and you just want to die, but if a small light appears there, you will always try to reach it by instinct, for survival. Now when people are in extreme situations even the sanest person can become insane, specially when you have no one.

So I must disagree just a bit with you guys, this time. Jack really needs to die already and pay for screwing up everyone´s lives, but I dont think I can hate him or feel nothing but indifference for him, because although it does not justifies his actions, he has been fucked up by other people to the point of becoming insane, and I wonder if people in his place would be able to be "sane" after what he´s been through. I dont think Vince´s childhood was more painful than Jack´s although it was extremely painful, but even though Vince had to live with the idea that he was making his most beloved person's life miserable just by existing and being bullied by society because of his eyes, there it remains the difference: a human and an animal can stand everything, I mean EVERYTHING if you have someone you love by your side even if that person does not love you back (which was not the case since Gil was always there to comfort and defend him), the same does not happen when you´re alone. when you´re alone you dont feel guilty, you dont feel hate, or sadness. You dont have your heart broken because all you have there is emptiness, a numb existence, its not broken so it cannot be fixed, its not a wound so it cannot heal, its not a scar, simply because it is a hole. You can try to put a piece in a puzzle that is similar to the one you lost, but deep down you know it was not that piece who belonged there. Jack´s words always made sense to me when he said that "The Pandora's box which lost all of it's hope has nothing but despair left? Nothing is left inside at all. So if there's nothing there then despair is also gone".
Jack´s mother was his most beloved person for sure. She probably started to have a dementia which in that era was considered a "madness of mind" or perhaps she just went crazy.
now facts that we can have through hints:
- Jack was conceived merely as bait to his mom get his dad to be with her. The famous "Ill get pregnant on purpose so he can never abandon me" is already a screwed thinking specially when you hint it on your child.
- Secondly his mom was for years with the "you´re doing great because you look like your dad" but then when she realizes that Jack´s dad didnt give a shit for both of them she directed her hate towards the one who didnt have any fault since the very beginning: Jack. And so she started to hit him with physical and verbal violence.

So fact number one that screwed Jack´s mind: being regarded as someone who didnt have any worth at all aka, useless trash.

Fact number 2: you can stand that to a certain point if you have no one else, if you´re a child you will still hang on to the small hope your mom changes. But then his mom deserts him. (when you´re a pre teenage, that is like loosing your ground).

Fact number 3: Jack as teenager went to the streets to die and didnt bother anyone. At that time it didnt cross his mind to do something to survive since he had the belief he was human trash. Selling his body was also out of question because he still had a little sane belief that it was "dirty".

Fact number 4: when he had no hope left, hope came, hope left. It that popular saying of when you dream with the sky and you know you cant reach it, you feel sad but its okay. Now if you reach the sky and then someone pushes you down, greater the fall and you wish you would never had touched the sky. When you have nothing, like Jack, that small hope becomes your world. If someone takes away that hope from you a second time, its just too painful to bear much worse than the first time.

Fact number 5: Who of us here, would not be mindfucked to sell our body to survive? Jack probably did it with men and women and that even if the previous facts didnt count, is enough itself to screw someone´s mind if you have a heart, and at that time Jack still had it.

So all this to say that imo no one in PH had tougher life than Jack. It does not excuse his actions, he should just die already and spare the other characters of more tragedy, but maybe its just me that still believes he is deep on the only way he can be, for brief moments. Most of people when some event becomes too painful to bear, turn off their emotions, because its the easier way to deal with pain, is not feel it. (some people rage, others cry, but some just turn off and Jack did it because it was becoming unbearable, ofc, that brings consequences, like becoming cold like stone)
I still believe Jack´s tears were real. But his obsession took over his mind and made him believe he was not worthy to love anyone and that Lacie was the only pure thing in his life, that a "trash" like him could be near her, it was enough for him and that her happiness was his happiness.
You know that saying " you´re my world", its here: she was Jack´s world, and he wants to give her the world she wants. It touches me and makes me teary to think of the dimension of how much Jack wanted Lacie to be happy. That is deep enough to me.
He is blind, he is insane and he needs pills for his bypolar disorder and he doesnt give a shit for anyone its true. But to me he is anything but shallow. He is empty, not shallow.

If Vince was not necessary to open the Abyss, I believe he would have treated him the same way he did, like an older brother. I believe that he killed Glen because he wanted too, and perhaps even killed Alice because he wanted to, but unconscionable tears sprung from his eyes but he didn't get the meaning. And my guess is that the day he killed Glen he killed himself completely and all the little feelings he had left, all of it was gone to give birth to the Jack we know now: a total emotionless obsessed character. Like a machine. And I think there is no greater sadness than that, and Jack must have felt it. There´s no greater pain than killing all your kindness, than killing the persons you love, than filling a hole with hatred and evil instead of happiness and peace. Jack to me is really like water: he feels genuinely sad in one minute, genuine hate, genuine love and altruism, genuine numbness, genuine lack of feelings on another minute and so on. Dark water. Waves. Clear water. Calm water. ETC. just because you feel a temporary emotion it does not mean it was not deep.

Im rooting for his death, but I wont lie, I would like him to feel peace at the end. And to me although lacking deepness "in the whole", I think he showed me the deepest impact in a character, and deepest twist on a manga overall. Too bad he is "evil". Directed to a good cause he would have been splendid, still his character was one of the few characters ever to leave such deep impact on me XD

I'm not disagreeing with you, really. I see Jack's perspective, although you feel it more deeply. I think I understand the emptiness and numbness he must feel. I don't hate him at all. I don't even want him dead, I just want resolution (besides, he IS already dead XD). I understand his childhood isolation from the world, and how being wholly alone as he was didn't even give him a chance to bounce emotions off of somebody - anybody - as Vince could do with Gil. He had no one to so much as validate his existence. Not in the sense that he has a purpose, but in the sense of him existing at all. It's maddening, yes.


That's a wonderful description. I think I'm spoiled by Griffith from Berserk, who can be paralleled to Jack, but has more depth in some sense. That's an unfair comparison, though. They are completely different characters and Jack is his own person with his own reasons. But, like Jack, Griffith has his one desire that he's willing to do anything for, and that fixation blinds him to his own true feelings about his friends. He isn't able to adapt to a shift in priorities, so he continues after his dream even if it means destroying everybody who care about him and who he cares about - specifically to destroy the humanity that he believes is an obstacle to his dreams.

And I attribute that to Griffith - that he feels, but doesn't know it until it's too late. I'm surprised that I didn't transfer that reasoning to Jack, as you explained. I think what's stopping me is because I'm uncertain what his tears were for. I want to believe they are for Glen and Alice and Gil and Vince. But I'm very afraid that it might be revealed that he's crying because Glen tried to sabotage his plans, or that Alice did something to stop him. I'm afraid he's crying for his lost dream of Lacie, and is bitter at Glen for it. I hope that's not true, but that's why I'm withholding judgment until I know who the tears are for.

I think he is crying those tears for Alice and Alyss and Glen (Oswald) and Gil and Vincent, because he did say to Arthur that he wished this had all been a ridiculous fairy tale, this implies some form of regret and/or guilt.

He also ended up using Oz, the B-Rabbit's power to destroy the 'chains,' rather than the power that was inside Alice's body. Because, as he thought right before he made his request with Alyss: '‘If I use the power held within this tiny body--- …………Then…’ He then asks the Core directly: “To use that power, it has to be this girl…?” But by then the Core had already left and Alyss was back in Alice's body, and Jack makes the request to use her powers to create Oz, the B-Rabbit instead. This also implies that a part of him was not wholly comfortable with the idea of using Alice and Alyss.

When Jack thinks, 'You'll lend me your power' in concerns to Gil and Vincent, the Japanese almost seemed to imply a sense of 'won't you?,' which reinforces this idea that he was slightly uncomfortable using the children, using his 'small friends.' But he did it because he was told by Lacie to use whatever means one can in order to achieve ones goals, and his goal was to bring the real world to the Abyss, which Lacie was now apart of.

There is probably still a part of Jack that is doesn't like what he is doing, but it is being buried under his "love" for Lacie. One of the major themes in PH is how love, in specific, having too much love can be dangerous and no good. It can cause people to go to extremes, such as in the case of Jack and Vincent or even in the case of Yuri who desired knowledge so much and revered Jack so much that he used everyone and everything, and it can cause others to be blind such as in the case of Gil.

Anyway, not that we know the truth about what happened during the Tragedy and have the correct facts behind everything, I'm sure this "new" Jack will be getting some more development as well. I don't think Mochizuki-sensei is quite done with him yet, since there is some compassion and morality in Jack, it just got overshadowed by his obsessive love. The kind of love that he originally hated his mother for and mocked her for, but which was the only kind of love that he actually knew, and which is eventually the same type of love he ended up fostering for Lacie.

LOL, Neiru, damnit sometimes I forget he is a soul already XP My deepest wish if for him to reincarnate someday, be a normal kid with a normal life and be happy. But i dont think that will happen dunno why *sighs* I confess I have a soft spot for characters with tragic backgrounds.
Gotta go read Berserk, Griffith seems awesome*.*




Precisely^.^ I share that same belief. If im proved to be wrong at the end then Jun sensei does not make sense at all, because the way she presented us Jack for so many chapters gave the strong feeling that he was really attached to people, but his obsession surpassed everything. I strongly believe he had feelings before he killed Glen and only after that he became what he is now and does not hesitate in killing whoever tries to mess up his plan. Still i dunno if it was him who killed Alice (She opposed his plan, he might have killed her for that) or if it was Oz ("Ill erase you Alice" quote makes me think), or if it was Oz by Jack´s command.

and damn, having Miranda as partner did not help Jack at all, only made him even more twisted.

Honestly Jack needed two things from Lacie: a huge slap and a hug. That would put an end to all of this. LOL.

I strongly believe that even if wounded Gil on purpose, he knew it didnt kill him because he did not wish his death, he first asked to Glen "why are you doing this, answer me Glen!" (probably referring to "why are you opposing me, or why did you send the baskervilles kill everyone here) then later asked Glen to lower his sword but he didnt, and so he killed Glen. But to me, as LilyGinnyBlack said, he shows moments of remorse/guilt towards Gil.
when he wounds Gil, we see him crying here.
Than in this page, he tries to make Gil to remember but since it was too painful he apologizes to Gil and next page when Gil faints in his arms, Jack says to himself "yeah...you dont have to remember...because the events of that day...to you and to that girl(Alice)...its a scar that can never be wiped away", and he has a guilty face.

LilyGinnyBlack said:

I think he is crying those tears for Alice and Alyss and Glen (Oswald) and Gil and Vincent, because he did say to Arthur that he wished this had all been a ridiculous fairy tale, this implies some form of regret and/or guilt.


Jack!! Why did you end up being like this?!! There are so many innocent people that you've been involved.Especially,persons that would like to stay by your side but you came blind and catches by your desires.I'm really feel sorry for you and i think the tears that you have is for those people,right? I'm strongly believed that!!


Oh!! By the way,thanks for the link Orulyon-san ^^