Forums

Clichés are clichés for a reason. There's nothing inherently wrong with a clichéd story or ending. Reliance on clichés is only a valid criticism when it makes the work predictable and trite. Guilty Crown is a lot of nasty things, but in the end it's neither of those. I can't see why one would want to avoid all clichés, they're the backbone of most things in entertainment.

Ok, then this is the question I will ask you guys. Why is it that the endings and the shows are bad? Give me your opinions, that's what I want.

Everybody has tastes, whatever, but this community just makes me question somethings I never questioned before, which I find nice as no other community had this power over me (the haters and the fanboys/fangirls, that's what I can't understand properly).

guilty crown was a bad example to use in this situation
cuz it just sucked throughout

same with fate stay night
maybe im biased cuz i read the VN
but yeh its pretty bad

I agree. Raymond Gibbs wrote about this issue:
"it is important to differentiate between an overused theme/motif/figure of speech that has lost its meaning (Cliche) and a theme/motif/figure that is used excessively owing to its effectiveness."

On some level, the shows have to use familiar material to speak to our common experiences. Whether those familiar motifs remain interesting or effective depends on the viewer as much as the material. people who give a bad review because of "cliché" are just saying that they've lost interest in some theme that appears in the show, and maybe they have been watching too many shows.

I notice a similar issue comes up often in the discussions of American cartoons versus Japanese animations. A common observation and often a criticism of American cartoons is that they are directed at a young audience and that they are childish, immature, etc. I suspect many people here started with western/American Cartoons at a young age, and then at a point when the typical themes started to seem cliche, discovered Japanese Animations with a whole new set of themes and styles.

The "bad ending" criticism seems to be a result of not knowing the cues and expected outcomes in Japanese stories. People usually don't mind a tragic plot when they have advanced notice. There is always an unspoken contract between a story teller and a viewer that there will be some surprises, but not a total deception. A good story teller drops hints along the way as to the outcome so that the listener/viewer will not be disappointed. Many American kids, for example, have become so accustomed to the "happy ending" in animations that that they don't expect a tragic ending, and they see dark forebodings as just a way to maintain suspense before the miracle at the ending. When the miracle doesn't come, they feel like they have been deceived and the contract has been broken.

I suppose all the reviews I've read we're american o.o. Anyways, about the people that watched too many anime... You've seen everything that can be original and good at the same time.

Why bother anymore if you're not going to enjoy o.O?

theres no problem with similar concepts as long as they are effectively executed

I just meant to use American kids as an example because they are the ones I know. Maybe it's the same everywhere that parents tell their kids stories with happy endings thinking it's the best thing for them, though from Grimm's Fairy Tales I get the feeling that isn't or wasn't always true.

Yeah, there's nothing new under the sun. All the material just gets recycled and repackaged in ways that makes it entertaining for some people for some amount of time. Then everyone gets sick of it. Then in 70 years they look back at it and think "ooooo how special." But it's still fun to feel like we are discovering "new" things, isn't it?

I'd like to say I don't know why people bother watching shows they won't enjoy, but the truth is I do it myself. Sometimes I just want to stick it out to see if the show will improve, or my mood will change, or whatever, that will make it a worthwhile experience in the end. I won't however, go through the trouble to watch a whole series and then write a review. That does seem unlikely, even for the most stubborn fans.

Pffffttt, I wanted to give an explanation on the "Ending is bad, show is bad" people, but that will just attract haters...

I'll give it anyways.

IMO most people that think that way still have no experience in how life works (yes, this is a bit of a hyperbole, as I'm young myself). Or simply don't want to see reality in a show? Like they want to escape reality (extreme case).

Whatever... I simply see it wrong rating a story by how the ending went.

Yeah, sure. If you don't mind those kinds of endings, then you won't have use for reviews that focus on those types of endings.

Not sure why this would imply the reviewer has "no experience in how life works". Do you mean that they haven't experienced major conflicts or personal tragedies?

"Tragedies" is quite abstract if we're talking about "life experience", even living without a father can be "traumatic" for somebody.

Yes, conflicts and traumas.

EDIT: Like you know, women see it in a way we see it in another. Now it depends on personalities, but mostly living without a father/mother interferes with your "home education" and with other things.

The ending of Guilty Crown was bad for a multitude of other reasons. I won't deny that it was original, but just because it's original doesn't mean it's any good. I haven't seen Fate/Stay Night, but I imagine most people found the ending bad because most people found the adaptation itself bad.

An ending doesn't have to be happy for it to be good. Otherwise bittersweet endings would be hated, when they're usually the most well-liked of all. A forced happy ending is the worst possible ending you can do if it isn't thematically consistent with the rest of the work. The opposite is true as well. Guilty Crown's ending isn't consistent with the rest of the work, nor is it entirely conclusive. It's an undeniably bad ending.

You're really over-analyzing the issue. It really comes down to basic storytelling techniques, not the viewer's "inexperience with life issues" or other nonsense. People thought Guilty Crown was shit well before the ending and it's a show that requires no prior education or experience to watch and enjoy properly.

Actually... Guilty Crown's ending isn't original o.O, I didn't mean that at all, I meant that I've saw some guys bitching that "omg inori died, such a bad show" and some reviews too, I already stated that all over this thread.

And by the "inexperience with life issues", I'm talking about people that complain that bad endings shouldn't exist. Over-analyzing or not, sometimes it's the truth (as I stated, rare cases).

Well, the idea of the show... Kid gets power, goes with the rebels against the government (of course at first he didn't wanted that), falls in love with the girl (which happens from like, the beginning, but too lazy to edit), goes threw much shit, becomes a tyrant leader, battles against the government again after he losses his arm for the girl, against the virus/antagonist/etc, at the end he beats the virus/antagonist but losses sight/girl stays without arm.

I don't see how it doesn't fit tho o.O.

no
people didnt say its a bad show because of the ending
they say its a bad show because it is a bad show

and you do have to realize that its an extremely rare occurrence for someone to rate down a show because of the ending only

lets just look at deathnote
the 2nd half was subpar and yet it still gets 10/10s everywhere

Formulaic means it's following a formula, like following a set of instructions

A trope is just another word for a cliche

Artistic Integrity is being creative and caring more about the work itself instead of the profit is might bring.

You do understand, that stating it's bad without any arguments behind the statement won't tell me anything, right?

Come on, a bit of argumentation here, it'a forum.

Like they always have the ol' pathetic protagonist at first and then he gets some incredible power and learns about it threw the whole story? That's a cliche, and they used so many of these that it became really generic?