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Strongest Servant? *spoilers*

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Poll: Who is the strongest servant in Fate-verse?


05-21-12, 9:15 PM

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I can't believe Hercules has only 10 votes. He should at least have the third most IMO.
 
05-21-12, 9:21 PM

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It's because a Berserker. WORST class for him.
 
05-21-12, 9:39 PM

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Thess said:
It's because a Berserker. WORST class for him.


But even as berserker he is still one of the strongest servants.
 
05-21-12, 9:41 PM

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Ragna92 said:
I can't believe Hercules has only 10 votes. He should at least have the third most IMO.

True that, he only lost due to plot armor.
 
05-21-12, 10:24 PM

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Swifteh said:
Ragna92 said:
I can't believe Hercules has only 10 votes. He should at least have the third most IMO.

True that, he only lost due to plot armor.
Don't forget how Gil just used him as target practice because he was unable to use any skills to protect Ilya other than just blindly charging ahead. If he had been, say, an Archer then he could have actually unleashed some hell on Gilgamesh without having to completly rely on his God Hand.

 
05-22-12, 4:45 AM

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so we have

Gilgamesh in 1st place
Arturia in 2nd
EMIYA & Lancelot in 3rd

Although I have some objections on EMIYA and Lancelot,I am more against Saber having 2nd place.At least according to previous discussions,she should be 3rd at best.
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"Sorry, I couldn’t hear you over my internal monologue."— Shirou
 
05-22-12, 6:44 AM

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EMIYA<Diarmuid
<Rin Saber, Kiritsugu saber and Saber Alter
>Shirou Saber
>Lancelot
<Hercules (Could go either way but I'm leaning towards Hercules winning)
<Iskander
>Gilles
>Medea
<Cu Chulainn
<Medusa
>Kojirou
>True Assassin and Zero Assassin

Any objections?
Modified by BloodRequiem, 05-22-12, 6:48 AM
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-22-12, 7:40 AM

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I think EMIYA can take down Berserker Heracles simply because of of UBW spam. I'm pretty certain he didn't even use the UBW Reality Marble itself in the Fate route (Ilya would have noticed it was a Reality Marble, she actually didn't even knew what the hell Archer did) and he still managed to kill Herakles six times while not fully recovered (he claims to have recovered but he was bluffing).

The sad part about Herakles as a Berserker is that he loses all that makes him an awesome warrior essentially making him weaker and completely reliant on God Hand.
Modified by Leon-Gun, 05-22-12, 7:44 AM

 
05-22-12, 8:14 AM

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A bit curious as to why EMIYA would lose against Saber Alter if HF Shirou could take her down. inb4 plot armor.
 
05-22-12, 8:31 AM

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Leon-Gun said:
I think EMIYA can take down Berserker Heracles simply because of of UBW spam. I'm pretty certain he didn't even use the UBW Reality Marble itself in the Fate route (Ilya would have noticed it was a Reality Marble, she actually didn't even knew what the hell Archer did) and he still managed to kill Herakles six times while not fully recovered (he claims to have recovered but he was bluffing).

The sad part about Herakles as a Berserker is that he loses all that makes him an awesome warrior essentially making him weaker and completely reliant on God Hand.


Hercules does have beastly speed and strength and could potentially rush EMIYA down before he can completely open UBW.
Well if he used swords to slow Hercules down like how Saber used the gravestones in the beginning of UBW then he might win but still...that's why I said it could go either way. I'm still leaning towards Hercules winning simply because the fact that EMIYA doesn't have Enkidu. (Hercules probably could have charged Gil down if not for Enkidu)

stAtic91 said:
A bit curious as to why EMIYA would lose against Saber Alter if HF Shirou could take her down. inb4 plot armor.


If Alter was smart she would retreat and Excaliblasted instead of trying to match crane wing 3 chains.
Modified by BloodRequiem, 05-22-12, 9:03 AM
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-22-12, 9:52 AM

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BloodRequiem said:
EMIYA<Diarmuid
<Rin Saber, Kiritsugu saber and Saber Alter
>Shirou Saber
>Lancelot
<Hercules (Could go either way but I'm leaning towards Hercules winning)
<Iskander
>Gilles
>Medea
<Cu Chulainn
<Medusa
>Kojirou
>True Assassin and Zero Assassin

Any objections?


Emiya better than Lancelot? And Arturia?

Are you freaking kidding me?
 
05-22-12, 10:06 AM

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Pan151 said:
BloodRequiem said:
EMIYA<Diarmuid
<Rin Saber, Kiritsugu saber and Saber Alter
>Shirou Saber
>Lancelot
<Hercules (Could go either way but I'm leaning towards Hercules winning)
<Iskander
>Gilles
>Medea
<Cu Chulainn
<Medusa
>Kojirou
>True Assassin and Zero Assassin

Any objections?


Emiya better than Lancelot? And Arturia?

Are you freaking kidding me?


NLBW
Gae Bolg
Hrunting
Caladbolg II
Crane Wings 3 Chains

And if you paid attention to previous discussions
KOH doesn't work on projections

also look on the list: Shirou Saber
Modified by BloodRequiem, 05-22-12, 10:12 AM
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-22-12, 10:41 AM

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Posts: 1284
BloodRequiem said:
Pan151 said:
BloodRequiem said:
EMIYA<Diarmuid
<Rin Saber, Kiritsugu saber and Saber Alter
>Shirou Saber
>Lancelot
<Hercules (Could go either way but I'm leaning towards Hercules winning)
<Iskander
>Gilles
>Medea
<Cu Chulainn
<Medusa
>Kojirou
>True Assassin and Zero Assassin

Any objections?


Emiya better than Lancelot? And Arturia?

Are you freaking kidding me?


NLBW
Gae Bolg
Hrunting
Caladbolg II
Crane Wings 3 Chains

And if you paid attention to previous discussions
KOH doesn't work on projections

also look on the list: Shirou Saber

We never really resolved the Lancelot vs. Archer discussion. You can go back to page 14 to see the action in all its glory, but basically, neither is obviously stronger than the other. It depends more on how the fight is set up than anything else. If they start at close range, Archer is screwed, but if they start at long range, Lancelot is screwed. That's pretty much it.

Same goes for Shirou Saber, pretty much.
 
05-22-12, 11:03 AM

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ataraxial said:
BloodRequiem said:
Pan151 said:
BloodRequiem said:
EMIYA<Diarmuid
<Rin Saber, Kiritsugu saber and Saber Alter
>Shirou Saber
>Lancelot
<Hercules (Could go either way but I'm leaning towards Hercules winning)
<Iskander
>Gilles
>Medea
<Cu Chulainn
<Medusa
>Kojirou
>True Assassin and Zero Assassin

Any objections?


Emiya better than Lancelot? And Arturia?

Are you freaking kidding me?


NLBW
Gae Bolg
Hrunting
Caladbolg II
Crane Wings 3 Chains

And if you paid attention to previous discussions
KOH doesn't work on projections

also look on the list: Shirou Saber

We never really resolved the Lancelot vs. Archer discussion. You can go back to page 14 to see the action in all its glory, but basically, neither is obviously stronger than the other. It depends more on how the fight is set up than anything else. If they start at close range, Archer is screwed, but if they start at long range, Lancelot is screwed. That's pretty much it.

Same goes for Shirou Saber, pretty much.


If Archer uses NLBW, or Gae Bolg then its basically his win but you keep denying him the right to use a part of his arsenal. Him using NLBW or Gae Bolg is different in concept to Lancelot having people to provide him with weapons because Archer is creating them himself.

Crane wings 3 chains for close range fights-Archer is NOT shit in close combat. Lancelot doesn't have instinct and projectile protection so its very unlikely that he will be able to survive the combo.
VS Shirou Saber Archer can totally hold her off long enough to open UBW.
It's Kiritsugu, Rin and Alter Saber that are the problems.
If he wasn't bullshitting about tracing Excalibur he would probably be placed higher.
Modified by BloodRequiem, 05-22-12, 11:10 AM
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-22-12, 11:12 AM

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Posts: 1284
BloodRequiem said:
ataraxial said:
BloodRequiem said:
Pan151 said:
BloodRequiem said:
EMIYA<Diarmuid
<Rin Saber, Kiritsugu saber and Saber Alter
>Shirou Saber
>Lancelot
<Hercules (Could go either way but I'm leaning towards Hercules winning)
<Iskander
>Gilles
>Medea
<Cu Chulainn
<Medusa
>Kojirou
>True Assassin and Zero Assassin

Any objections?


Emiya better than Lancelot? And Arturia?

Are you freaking kidding me?


NLBW
Gae Bolg
Hrunting
Caladbolg II
Crane Wings 3 Chains

And if you paid attention to previous discussions
KOH doesn't work on projections

also look on the list: Shirou Saber

We never really resolved the Lancelot vs. Archer discussion. You can go back to page 14 to see the action in all its glory, but basically, neither is obviously stronger than the other. It depends more on how the fight is set up than anything else. If they start at close range, Archer is screwed, but if they start at long range, Lancelot is screwed. That's pretty much it.

Same goes for Shirou Saber, pretty much.


crane wings 3 chains for close range fights-Archer is NOT shit in close combat
VS Shirou Saber Archer can totally hold her off long enough to open UBW.
It's Kiritsugu, Rin and Alter Saber that are the problems.
If he wasn't bullshitting about tracing Excalibur he would probably be placed higher.

Crane Wings is powerful, but Saber also has plothax (Instinct, and also Prana Burst) as a skill. Coupled with her B luck, she tends to avoid unavoidable attacks. Her A magic resistance would also help with traced projectiles in general. I think it would be pretty hard for Archer to win since he can't do much against her defensively. See: beginning of FSN.
 
05-22-12, 11:19 AM

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Posts: 4237
ataraxial said:
BloodRequiem said:
ataraxial said:
BloodRequiem said:
Pan151 said:
BloodRequiem said:
EMIYA<Diarmuid
<Rin Saber, Kiritsugu saber and Saber Alter
>Shirou Saber
>Lancelot
<Hercules (Could go either way but I'm leaning towards Hercules winning)
<Iskander
>Gilles
>Medea
<Cu Chulainn
<Medusa
>Kojirou
>True Assassin and Zero Assassin

Any objections?


Emiya better than Lancelot? And Arturia?

Are you freaking kidding me?


NLBW
Gae Bolg
Hrunting
Caladbolg II
Crane Wings 3 Chains

And if you paid attention to previous discussions
KOH doesn't work on projections

also look on the list: Shirou Saber

We never really resolved the Lancelot vs. Archer discussion. You can go back to page 14 to see the action in all its glory, but basically, neither is obviously stronger than the other. It depends more on how the fight is set up than anything else. If they start at close range, Archer is screwed, but if they start at long range, Lancelot is screwed. That's pretty much it.

Same goes for Shirou Saber, pretty much.


crane wings 3 chains for close range fights-Archer is NOT shit in close combat
VS Shirou Saber Archer can totally hold her off long enough to open UBW.
It's Kiritsugu, Rin and Alter Saber that are the problems.
If he wasn't bullshitting about tracing Excalibur he would probably be placed higher.

Crane Wings is powerful, but Saber also has plothax (Instinct, and also Prana Burst) as a skill. Coupled with her B luck, she tends to avoid unavoidable attacks. Her A magic resistance would also help with traced projectiles in general. I think it would be pretty hard for Archer to win since he can't do much against her defensively. See: beginning of FSN.


Instinct was the reason Alter didn't die instantly when Kanshou and Bakuya flew at her from behind. She was constantly prana bursting too.
Magic resistance doesn't affect projections...
And beginning of FSN was a surprise attack against Rin so he was forced to block it for her.
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-22-12, 11:26 AM

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Posts: 1284
BloodRequiem said:
ataraxial said:
BloodRequiem said:
ataraxial said:
BloodRequiem said:
Pan151 said:
BloodRequiem said:
EMIYA<Diarmuid
<Rin Saber, Kiritsugu saber and Saber Alter
>Shirou Saber
>Lancelot
<Hercules (Could go either way but I'm leaning towards Hercules winning)
<Iskander
>Gilles
>Medea
<Cu Chulainn
<Medusa
>Kojirou
>True Assassin and Zero Assassin

Any objections?


Emiya better than Lancelot? And Arturia?

Are you freaking kidding me?


NLBW
Gae Bolg
Hrunting
Caladbolg II
Crane Wings 3 Chains

And if you paid attention to previous discussions
KOH doesn't work on projections

also look on the list: Shirou Saber

We never really resolved the Lancelot vs. Archer discussion. You can go back to page 14 to see the action in all its glory, but basically, neither is obviously stronger than the other. It depends more on how the fight is set up than anything else. If they start at close range, Archer is screwed, but if they start at long range, Lancelot is screwed. That's pretty much it.

Same goes for Shirou Saber, pretty much.


crane wings 3 chains for close range fights-Archer is NOT shit in close combat
VS Shirou Saber Archer can totally hold her off long enough to open UBW.
It's Kiritsugu, Rin and Alter Saber that are the problems.
If he wasn't bullshitting about tracing Excalibur he would probably be placed higher.

Crane Wings is powerful, but Saber also has plothax (Instinct, and also Prana Burst) as a skill. Coupled with her B luck, she tends to avoid unavoidable attacks. Her A magic resistance would also help with traced projectiles in general. I think it would be pretty hard for Archer to win since he can't do much against her defensively. See: beginning of FSN.


Instinct was the reason Alter didn't die instantly when Kanshou and Bakuya flew at her from behind. She was constantly prana bursting too.
Magic resistance doesn't affect projections...
And beginning of FSN was a surprise attack against Rin so he was forced to block it for her.

Saber Alter suffers a rank down in Instinct, Magic Resistance, and Luck compared to Shirou Saber.
I don't see why magic resistance wouldn't affect projections since they are manifestations of prana.
 
05-22-12, 11:30 AM

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Posts: 4237
ataraxial said:
BloodRequiem said:
ataraxial said:
BloodRequiem said:
ataraxial said:
BloodRequiem said:
Pan151 said:
BloodRequiem said:
EMIYA<Diarmuid
<Rin Saber, Kiritsugu saber and Saber Alter
>Shirou Saber
>Lancelot
<Hercules (Could go either way but I'm leaning towards Hercules winning)
<Iskander
>Gilles
>Medea
<Cu Chulainn
<Medusa
>Kojirou
>True Assassin and Zero Assassin

Any objections?


Emiya better than Lancelot? And Arturia?

Are you freaking kidding me?


NLBW
Gae Bolg
Hrunting
Caladbolg II
Crane Wings 3 Chains

And if you paid attention to previous discussions
KOH doesn't work on projections

also look on the list: Shirou Saber

We never really resolved the Lancelot vs. Archer discussion. You can go back to page 14 to see the action in all its glory, but basically, neither is obviously stronger than the other. It depends more on how the fight is set up than anything else. If they start at close range, Archer is screwed, but if they start at long range, Lancelot is screwed. That's pretty much it.

Same goes for Shirou Saber, pretty much.


crane wings 3 chains for close range fights-Archer is NOT shit in close combat
VS Shirou Saber Archer can totally hold her off long enough to open UBW.
It's Kiritsugu, Rin and Alter Saber that are the problems.
If he wasn't bullshitting about tracing Excalibur he would probably be placed higher.

Crane Wings is powerful, but Saber also has plothax (Instinct, and also Prana Burst) as a skill. Coupled with her B luck, she tends to avoid unavoidable attacks. Her A magic resistance would also help with traced projectiles in general. I think it would be pretty hard for Archer to win since he can't do much against her defensively. See: beginning of FSN.


Instinct was the reason Alter didn't die instantly when Kanshou and Bakuya flew at her from behind. She was constantly prana bursting too.
Magic resistance doesn't affect projections...
And beginning of FSN was a surprise attack against Rin so he was forced to block it for her.

Saber Alter suffers a rank down in Instinct, Magic Resistance, and Luck compared to Shirou Saber.
I don't see why magic resistance wouldn't affect projections since they are manifestations of prana.


A mass of prana =/= magecraft or else magic resistance = servant resistance
Archer > Shirou
For his version of crane wings, his blades are reinforced not to mention Archer is several times better in terms of physical capabilities than Shirou
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-22-12, 11:40 AM

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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1284
BloodRequiem said:
ataraxial said:
BloodRequiem said:
ataraxial said:
BloodRequiem said:
ataraxial said:
BloodRequiem said:
Pan151 said:
BloodRequiem said:
EMIYA<Diarmuid
<Rin Saber, Kiritsugu saber and Saber Alter
>Shirou Saber
>Lancelot
<Hercules (Could go either way but I'm leaning towards Hercules winning)
<Iskander
>Gilles
>Medea
<Cu Chulainn
<Medusa
>Kojirou
>True Assassin and Zero Assassin

Any objections?


Emiya better than Lancelot? And Arturia?

Are you freaking kidding me?


NLBW
Gae Bolg
Hrunting
Caladbolg II
Crane Wings 3 Chains

And if you paid attention to previous discussions
KOH doesn't work on projections

also look on the list: Shirou Saber

We never really resolved the Lancelot vs. Archer discussion. You can go back to page 14 to see the action in all its glory, but basically, neither is obviously stronger than the other. It depends more on how the fight is set up than anything else. If they start at close range, Archer is screwed, but if they start at long range, Lancelot is screwed. That's pretty much it.

Same goes for Shirou Saber, pretty much.


crane wings 3 chains for close range fights-Archer is NOT shit in close combat
VS Shirou Saber Archer can totally hold her off long enough to open UBW.
It's Kiritsugu, Rin and Alter Saber that are the problems.
If he wasn't bullshitting about tracing Excalibur he would probably be placed higher.

Crane Wings is powerful, but Saber also has plothax (Instinct, and also Prana Burst) as a skill. Coupled with her B luck, she tends to avoid unavoidable attacks. Her A magic resistance would also help with traced projectiles in general. I think it would be pretty hard for Archer to win since he can't do much against her defensively. See: beginning of FSN.


Instinct was the reason Alter didn't die instantly when Kanshou and Bakuya flew at her from behind. She was constantly prana bursting too.
Magic resistance doesn't affect projections...
And beginning of FSN was a surprise attack against Rin so he was forced to block it for her.

Saber Alter suffers a rank down in Instinct, Magic Resistance, and Luck compared to Shirou Saber.
I don't see why magic resistance wouldn't affect projections since they are manifestations of prana.


A mass of prana =/= magecraft or else magic resistance = servant resistance
Archer > Shirou
For his version of crane wings, his blades are reinforced not to mention Archer is several times better in terms of physical capabilities than Shirou

But Shirou has plot on his side, so Archer does not always > Shirou. See: Archer vs. Shirou.
And projection is magecraft...
 
05-22-12, 11:43 AM

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Saber > All


 
05-22-12, 1:35 PM

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Projection is magecraft but there's slight differences. ANyway, the beginning of Fate is not evidence as to how matched Saber (under SHirou) and Archer are. Archer had several plot-related reasons for getting injured, like suddenly remembering the last of his memories at the sight of Saber and Saber going directly for a stupid Rin who somehow thought her magecraft was suddenly able to pierce a Saber's magic projection (when even Caster can't).

Also, Archer can't trace Excalibur, but he can trace a cheaper imitation. hut it doesn't matter as he wouldn't do it since it would take all of his prana just to unleash it).
Modified by Leon-Gun, 05-22-12, 1:38 PM

 
05-22-12, 3:09 PM

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Leon-Gun said:
Projection is magecraft but there's slight differences. ANyway, the beginning of Fate is not evidence as to how matched Saber (under SHirou) and Archer are. Archer had several plot-related reasons for getting injured, like suddenly remembering the last of his memories at the sight of Saber and Saber going directly for a stupid Rin who somehow thought her magecraft was suddenly able to pierce a Saber's magic projection (when even Caster can't).

Also, Archer can't trace Excalibur, but he can trace a cheaper imitation. hut it doesn't matter as he wouldn't do it since it would take all of his prana just to unleash it).

Yeah I am saying neither that projections would spontaneous implode on contact with Saber's Magic Resistance nor that the beginning of FSN shows that clearly Saber >>>>>> Archer.

I am saying that Archer would have trouble with Saber, particularly so in close combat, and that it would be logical for Magic Resistance to reduce the effectiveness of attacks from Projected weapons since it is, after all, magecraft.
 
05-22-12, 6:32 PM

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Excuse my ignorance, but how would Archer deal with Avalon anyways?
 
05-22-12, 6:40 PM

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Wedgez said:
Excuse my ignorance, but how would Archer deal with Avalon anyways?

Avalon is kind of like Stasis Field, if you'll excuse my Starcraft reference. While the user can't be hurt while it's active, the user also cannot attack until they exit from its effects. I personally think that this can still be quite useful against Archer if used correctly, but it's helpful to keep in mind that it is not blanket invincibility.

It also has that passive healing boost, which is helpful but not overwhelmingly powerful.
 
05-22-12, 9:40 PM

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ataraxial said:
Wedgez said:
Excuse my ignorance, but how would Archer deal with Avalon anyways?

Avalon is kind of like Stasis Field, if you'll excuse my Starcraft reference. While the user can't be hurt while it's active, the user also cannot attack until they exit from its effects. I personally think that this can still be quite useful against Archer if used correctly, but it's helpful to keep in mind that it is not blanket invincibility.

It also has that passive healing boost, which is helpful but not overwhelmingly powerful.
That last part is actually very good to remember. Shirou actually survived most encounters not solely because of Avalon, but because his body would turn into swords as a defense mechanism stemming from Unlimited Blade Works, and all the extra damage would then be healed by Avalon afterwards. Avalon didn't make it invincible, he just had two very useful abilities stacked together (UBW + Avalon). A good example would be Herakles attack on Shirou. Shirou states that he felt the attack was strong enough to slip him in half, but his body was in fact not split in fact, thanks to UBW, and the internal organs that were shattered by Herakles were later healed by Avalon. This happens again later when Shirou's body turns so hard Rider can't pierce it with her weapon so she resorts to kicking him from the third floor window (again, UBW turns body into steel, Avalon heals).

 
05-23-12, 8:37 PM

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ataraxial said:


I am saying that Archer would have trouble with Saber, particularly so in close combat, and that it would be logical for Magic Resistance to reduce the effectiveness of attacks from Projected weapons since it is, after all, magecraft.


again I said he can only take down Shirou Saber because he can hold his own in a melee fight
Rin, Kiritsugu, and Alter Saber can pull an Excaliblast much easier than Shirou Saber thats why Archer probably wouldn't be able to take them
and like I said before a mass of prana doesn't equal to magecraft or else magic resistance would be servant resistance
a projection also probably ceases to become magecraft after the caster finishes tracing and turns into an "item"
I wouldn't be surprised if Archer and Shirou's tracing is not classified under magecraft
they pretty much bypassed one of the main rules of thaumaturgy by pulling swords out of their reality marbles

Wedgez said:
Excuse my ignorance, but how would Archer deal with Avalon anyways?


Avalon is not an offensive noble phantasm and for a EX ranked NP it kinda sucks.
curses will be able to slow down the regeneration and if the heart of the brain are damaged then there is no way to revive the victim
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-24-12, 2:28 AM

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BloodRequiem said:

Rin, Kiritsugu, and Alter Saber can pull an Excaliblast much easier than Shirou Saber thats why Archer probably wouldn't be able to take them


Shirou Shaber can use Excaliber just as any other Saber - maybe not spam it, but a couple times during a fight are perfectly fine. Even under Rin, she couln't use it more than twice at a time anyway...
 
05-24-12, 4:38 AM

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Pan151 said:
BloodRequiem said:

Rin, Kiritsugu, and Alter Saber can pull an Excaliblast much easier than Shirou Saber thats why Archer probably wouldn't be able to take them


Shirou Shaber can use Excaliber just as any other Saber - maybe not spam it, but a couple times during a fight are perfectly fine. Even under Rin, she couln't use it more than twice at a time anyway...
...at full power, which is sometimes she only ever does twice, both ocassions being when she destroys the Grail. Shirou Saber can't use Full Excalibur AT ALL because of the fact Shirou has no means of recharging her prana efficiently enough to allow it. Fighting and surviving against Lancer + Herakles alone during the first night she was summoned took half of her reserves. So no, unless she wants to kamikaze (like she did against Rider) or has stocked up some extra mana before hand (like she did before the Gilgamesh fight) she can't use Excalibur efficiently. Even the times she used it in the GIl fight were a plot stretch and one where we have to assume: A) getting back Avalon restored her stock of prana to decent levels, beyond what a mere hour of sex would, B)plot hax was involved.

 
05-24-12, 7:55 AM

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Leon-Gun said:
Pan151 said:
BloodRequiem said:

Rin, Kiritsugu, and Alter Saber can pull an Excaliblast much easier than Shirou Saber thats why Archer probably wouldn't be able to take them


Shirou Shaber can use Excaliber just as any other Saber - maybe not spam it, but a couple times during a fight are perfectly fine. Even under Rin, she couln't use it more than twice at a time anyway...
...at full power, which is sometimes she only ever does twice, both ocassions being when she destroys the Grail. Shirou Saber can't use Full Excalibur AT ALL because of the fact Shirou has no means of recharging her prana efficiently enough to allow it. Fighting and surviving against Lancer + Herakles alone during the first night she was summoned took half of her reserves. So no, unless she wants to kamikaze (like she did against Rider) or has stocked up some extra mana before hand (like she did before the Gilgamesh fight) she can't use Excalibur efficiently. Even the times she used it in the GIl fight were a plot stretch and one where we have to assume: A) getting back Avalon restored her stock of prana to decent levels, beyond what a mere hour of sex would, B)plot hax was involved.


Against Rider she had the extra problem of not having any mana flow from Shirou at all and having to use her own reserves for many days straight. If they had done the... ehm... ritual from day one, and she was at full power, then she could have used it twice too.
And remember, we are talking about 1v1 on full power, not at arbitrary levels of mana exhaustion...
 
05-24-12, 9:05 AM

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Leon-Gun said:
Pan151 said:
BloodRequiem said:

Rin, Kiritsugu, and Alter Saber can pull an Excaliblast much easier than Shirou Saber thats why Archer probably wouldn't be able to take them


Shirou Shaber can use Excaliber just as any other Saber - maybe not spam it, but a couple times during a fight are perfectly fine. Even under Rin, she couln't use it more than twice at a time anyway...
...at full power, which is sometimes she only ever does twice, both ocassions being when she destroys the Grail. Shirou Saber can't use Full Excalibur AT ALL because of the fact Shirou has no means of recharging her prana efficiently enough to allow it. Fighting and surviving against Lancer + Herakles alone during the first night she was summoned took half of her reserves. So no, unless she wants to kamikaze (like she did against Rider) or has stocked up some extra mana before hand (like she did before the Gilgamesh fight) she can't use Excalibur efficiently. Even the times she used it in the GIl fight were a plot stretch and one where we have to assume: A) getting back Avalon restored her stock of prana to decent levels, beyond what a mere hour of sex would, B)plot hax was involved.


I remember her using Excalibur 3 times in the fight against Gil. It was definitely plot hax.
 
05-26-12, 3:42 PM

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BloodRequiem said:
Archer>Lancelot


Archer admits that Lancelot >>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself in Fate/UC (in a battle win quote to Saber). He seems to admire Lancelot, actually. His compatibility is pretty bad. Lancelot's faster, more resilient, better fighter, all his weapons would likely get stolen, he can't trace Arondight (since it's the same as Excalibur... fairy material). You need to take into account that of his plans would get screwed over by Protection of Faeries Hax which gives Lancelot plot armor to do what he likes.

Unless he traces Arturia to distract him, he's done for against Lancelot.

I'll say this again: he's ridiculous to the point Nasu acknowledged how absurdly powerful he is.
Modified by Thess, 05-26-12, 3:50 PM
 
05-26-12, 4:05 PM

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Thess said:
BloodRequiem said:
Archer>Lancelot


Archer admits that Lancelot >>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself in Fate/UC (in a battle win quote to Saber). He seems to admire Lancelot, actually. His compatibility is pretty bad. Lancelot's faster, more resilient, better fighter, all his weapons would likely get stolen, he can't trace Arondight (since it's the same as Excalibur... fairy material). You need to take into account that of his plans would get screwed over by Protection of Faeries Hax which gives Lancelot plot armor to do what he likes.

Unless he traces Arturia to distract him, he's done for against Lancelot.

I'll say this again: he's ridiculous to the point Nasu acknowledged how absurdly powerful he is.


F/UC isn't cannon...when kanshou and bakuya can hit through godhand...not to mention personal character quotes arent really reliable as shown on several occasions
KoH cant act on projections so stealing weapons are a no go
and if we say he always wins because hes got protection of the faeries hax...its would be as logical as arguing ichigo winning every battle due to plotkai or naruto winning because hes the main character...or we can counter argue EMIYA's eye of the mind hax and eventually the discussion would become meaningless and turn to shit
also...NLBW...that was at least supersonic when shirou used it doubt Lancelot could survive that unless we play double standards and deny EMIYA around half of his known arsenal
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-26-12, 7:18 PM

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BloodRequiem said:
Thess said:
BloodRequiem said:
Archer>Lancelot


Archer admits that Lancelot >>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself in Fate/UC (in a battle win quote to Saber). He seems to admire Lancelot, actually. His compatibility is pretty bad. Lancelot's faster, more resilient, better fighter, all his weapons would likely get stolen, he can't trace Arondight (since it's the same as Excalibur... fairy material). You need to take into account that of his plans would get screwed over by Protection of Faeries Hax which gives Lancelot plot armor to do what he likes.

Unless he traces Arturia to distract him, he's done for against Lancelot.

I'll say this again: he's ridiculous to the point Nasu acknowledged how absurdly powerful he is.


F/UC isn't cannon...when kanshou and bakuya can hit through godhand...not to mention personal character quotes arent really reliable as shown on several occasions
KoH cant act on projections so stealing weapons are a no go
and if we say he always wins because hes got protection of the faeries hax...its would be as logical as arguing ichigo winning every battle due to plotkai or naruto winning because hes the main character...or we can counter argue EMIYA's eye of the mind hax and eventually the discussion would become meaningless and turn to shit
also...NLBW...that was at least supersonic when shirou used it doubt Lancelot could survive that unless we play double standards and deny EMIYA around half of his known arsenal

We've had this discussion before about NLBW. Since it's based on the existence of another Servant (Heracles) and having Archer see his axe sword or whatever first, it shouldn't be counted as part of his arsenal. It's the same as not giving Lancelot random epic things like jets (or nukes) to use as NPs.
 
05-26-12, 7:21 PM

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BloodRequiem said:
F/UC isn't cannon..


Yes, it is. Acknowledged as part of Nasuverse. Fate/Extra Material.

Also video game mechanics =/= quotes. Archer admits he's nowhere the level of Lancelot. Canon. He'll be probably reduced to a fanboy goo if he ever met the guy.

BloodRequiem said:
KoH cant act on projections so stealing weapons are a no go


Says who? You? Of course it can, since Zerker basically fills it with his own prana and steals it. Rin uses a projection (that Shirou gives her), have you forgotten? They work on a similar level actually.

Again, are you using a blind, slower, distracted Herakles as a measure?
Modified by Thess, 05-26-12, 7:25 PM
 
05-26-12, 7:24 PM

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ataraxial said:
BloodRequiem said:
Thess said:
BloodRequiem said:
Archer>Lancelot


Archer admits that Lancelot >>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself in Fate/UC (in a battle win quote to Saber). He seems to admire Lancelot, actually. His compatibility is pretty bad. Lancelot's faster, more resilient, better fighter, all his weapons would likely get stolen, he can't trace Arondight (since it's the same as Excalibur... fairy material). You need to take into account that of his plans would get screwed over by Protection of Faeries Hax which gives Lancelot plot armor to do what he likes.

Unless he traces Arturia to distract him, he's done for against Lancelot.

I'll say this again: he's ridiculous to the point Nasu acknowledged how absurdly powerful he is.


F/UC isn't cannon...when kanshou and bakuya can hit through godhand...not to mention personal character quotes arent really reliable as shown on several occasions
KoH cant act on projections so stealing weapons are a no go
and if we say he always wins because hes got protection of the faeries hax...its would be as logical as arguing ichigo winning every battle due to plotkai or naruto winning because hes the main character...or we can counter argue EMIYA's eye of the mind hax and eventually the discussion would become meaningless and turn to shit
also...NLBW...that was at least supersonic when shirou used it doubt Lancelot could survive that unless we play double standards and deny EMIYA around half of his known arsenal

We've had this discussion before about NLBW. Since it's based on the existence of another Servant (Heracles) and having Archer see his axe sword or whatever first, it shouldn't be counted as part of his arsenal. It's the same as not giving Lancelot random epic things like jets (or nukes) to use as NPs.


Refer to one of my previous posts.
Archer projecting Nine Lives is NOT the same as Lancelot hijacking jets because Archer creates them himself from scratch based on his memories. It is a personal skill and doesn't require a random stroke of luck for it to be there.
If the two are of the same nature then we might as well say projection is completely out of the equation since it requires him to encounter all those weapons in his lifetime...
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-26-12, 7:28 PM

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BloodRequiem said:
Archer projecting Nine Lives is NOT the same as Lancelot hijacking jets because Archer creates them himself from scratch based on his memories. It is a personal skill and doesn't require a random stroke of luck for it to be there.
If the two are of the same nature then we might as well say projection is completely out of the equation since it requires him to encounter all those weapons in his lifetime...


Eh... Knight of Honor allows Lancelot to make anything conceptualized as a weapon be taken as his personal D-rated Noble Phantasm.

Including his sword spam. Since, you know, they are weapons?
 
05-26-12, 7:36 PM

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Thess said:
BloodRequiem said:
F/UC isn't cannon..


Yes, it is. Acknowledged as part of Nasuverse. Fate/Extra Material.

Also video game mechanics =/= quotes. Archer admits he's nowhere the level of Lancelot. Canon. He'll be probably reduced to a fanboy goo if he ever met the guy.

BloodRequiem said:
KoH cant act on projections so stealing weapons are a no go


Says who? You? Of course it can, since Zerker basically fills it with his own prana and steals it. Rin uses a projection (that Shirou gives her), have you forgotten? They work on a similar level actually.

Again, are you using a blind, slower, distracted Herakles as a measure?


Sources saying F/UC is cannon part of nasuverse?
yes Nasu did say F/E is canon (Dunno the logic behind that but meh) but nowhere are there info saying F/UC is canon
And also just because he says he likes the guy and will suck compared to him doesn't mean that he really will lose

Rin never attempted to disrupt the structure of Zelretch with her own prana
while KoH requires Lancelot's corrupt prana to soak the weapon therefore disrupting the structure
and as far as I know Lancelot does not know reinforcement and projection magecraft and he does not have an affinity with sword creation
therefore it will break the projection
refer to Shirou's training sessions

supersonic is from 9 bullet revolver narration: I surpass the crashing speed of sound
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-26-12, 7:42 PM

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BloodRequiem said:
Sources saying F/UC is cannon part of nasuverse?


Whatever is compiled in the Character Materials is canon. UC not only had the scenarios written by Nasu, but also appears in Fate/Extra Material.

BloodRequiem said:
And also just because he says he likes the guy and will suck compared to him doesn't mean that he really will lose.


He says he's inferior to Lancelot. Period? We're talking about overall edge, it's Lancelot's.

BloodRequiem said:
Rin never attempted to disrupt the structure of Zelretch with her own prana while KoH requires Lancelot's corrupt prana to soak the weapon therefore disrupting the structure


Uh yes, she did? She had to wield it by processing mana (exterior) and making her own to release it. She had fill it with her prana too...

BloodRequiem said:
supersonic is from 9 bullet revolver narration: I surpass the crashing speed of sound


Which still needed Berserker to be BLIND and slower than usual and get distracted to strike?

Lancelot and David (from Apocrypha) are the two Servants who would make Gilgamesh and EMIYA hate their lives.
Modified by Thess, 05-26-12, 7:46 PM
 
05-26-12, 8:34 PM

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BloodRequiem said:
ataraxial said:
BloodRequiem said:
Thess said:
BloodRequiem said:
Archer>Lancelot


Archer admits that Lancelot >>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself in Fate/UC (in a battle win quote to Saber). He seems to admire Lancelot, actually. His compatibility is pretty bad. Lancelot's faster, more resilient, better fighter, all his weapons would likely get stolen, he can't trace Arondight (since it's the same as Excalibur... fairy material). You need to take into account that of his plans would get screwed over by Protection of Faeries Hax which gives Lancelot plot armor to do what he likes.

Unless he traces Arturia to distract him, he's done for against Lancelot.

I'll say this again: he's ridiculous to the point Nasu acknowledged how absurdly powerful he is.


F/UC isn't cannon...when kanshou and bakuya can hit through godhand...not to mention personal character quotes arent really reliable as shown on several occasions
KoH cant act on projections so stealing weapons are a no go
and if we say he always wins because hes got protection of the faeries hax...its would be as logical as arguing ichigo winning every battle due to plotkai or naruto winning because hes the main character...or we can counter argue EMIYA's eye of the mind hax and eventually the discussion would become meaningless and turn to shit
also...NLBW...that was at least supersonic when shirou used it doubt Lancelot could survive that unless we play double standards and deny EMIYA around half of his known arsenal

We've had this discussion before about NLBW. Since it's based on the existence of another Servant (Heracles) and having Archer see his axe sword or whatever first, it shouldn't be counted as part of his arsenal. It's the same as not giving Lancelot random epic things like jets (or nukes) to use as NPs.


Refer to one of my previous posts.
Archer projecting Nine Lives is NOT the same as Lancelot hijacking jets because Archer creates them himself from scratch based on his memories. It is a personal skill and doesn't require a random stroke of luck for it to be there.
If the two are of the same nature then we might as well say projection is completely out of the equation since it requires him to encounter all those weapons in his lifetime...

Except it's not based on his memories. It's from seeing the axe sword in the present as Shirou.
There is no basis for assuming that he has Nine Lives stored in his arsenal. If it were, why doesn't he ever use it?
 
05-26-12, 10:53 PM

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GARcher all the way. His Noble Phantasm curb-stomps everyone's else in terms of coolness.
 
05-27-12, 3:18 AM

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Genix said:
GARcher all the way. His Noble Phantasm curb-stomps everyone's else in terms of coolness.


:/

And that's why all MAL ratings are so way off. People just have no freaking idea what they're doing when they're given a rating page...
 
05-27-12, 8:15 AM

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Pan151 said:
Genix said:
GARcher all the way. His Noble Phantasm curb-stomps everyone's else in terms of coolness.


:/

And that's why all MAL ratings are so way off. People just have no freaking idea what they're doing when they're given a rating page...

Someone voted for Avenger. Wut.
 
05-27-12, 8:58 AM

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ataraxial said:
Pan151 said:
Genix said:
GARcher all the way. His Noble Phantasm curb-stomps everyone's else in terms of coolness.


:/

And that's why all MAL ratings are so way off. People just have no freaking idea what they're doing when they're given a rating page...

Someone voted for Avenger. Wut.


Please take a moment to fill this anime questionnaire.
"Sorry, I couldn’t hear you over my internal monologue."— Shirou
 
05-27-12, 12:37 PM

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ssjokg said:
ataraxial said:
Pan151 said:
Genix said:
GARcher all the way. His Noble Phantasm curb-stomps everyone's else in terms of coolness.


:/

And that's why all MAL ratings are so way off. People just have no freaking idea what they're doing when they're given a rating page...

Someone voted for Avenger. Wut.


Well I guess he does sucks as a Servant but if you know about him you may try to equate his power to what ultimatey can happen if he is brought back to the world of the living.
I think some people may be confusing him with the Shadow which was not really him, just a form that made use of a certain persons's magecraft.

 
05-27-12, 1:23 PM

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anyone who doesn't vote Gilgamesh has no idea what they are talking about.

He would have curbstomped both Wars in one hour if he went serious as Nasu said.
 
05-27-12, 1:31 PM

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pikachuwei said:
anyone who doesn't vote Gilgamesh has no idea what they are talking about.

He would have curbstomped both Wars in one hour if he went serious as Nasu said.


They were probably thinking of in character Gilgamesh when they voted.
 
05-27-12, 2:59 PM

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pikachuwei said:
anyone who doesn't vote Gilgamesh has no idea what they are talking about.

He would have curbstomped both Wars in one hour if he went serious as Nasu said.


There was never a need for Nasu to even confirm this - it's blatantly obvious. And, also, if we take a look at the way that the various heroic spirits' power is generally determined, ie how grand, old and well-known their legend is, it is pretty obvious that there is no hero that can realistically compete with him - he was the very first hero to ever exist, one of the first kings to ever exist, owner of all ancient treasures, almost a full god etc... he's just out of reach for any person that came after him.

If we were to find some servant that can outpower him you'd have to look back into myths of Genesis, which would obviously require taking some fairly excessive liberties with the lore Nasu set. And even then, the only person that has a greater legend than Gilgamesh's, and complies with the basic rule of having been born human or part-human, is -like I said some pages before- Lilith. Which, obviously, noone in their right mind would willingly summon (nonetheless, I would love to see Lilith in some future Fate project - she would make an excelent example of the Avenger class)
Modified by Pan151, 05-27-12, 3:20 PM
 
05-27-12, 8:37 PM

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Avenger is the coolest Servant, but he's not the strongest. ALTHOUGH his final form would make him indeed more powerful than the rest (with the wish granted), third greatest human killing machine in Nasuverse (after Primate Murder and ORT).
 
05-27-12, 8:38 PM

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ssjokg said:
ataraxial said:

Someone voted for Avenger. Wut.




*Inserts Gil's sound drama laugh*
 
05-27-12, 9:14 PM

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sallym613 said:
*Inserts Gil's sound drama laugh*


Technically, Gil "likes" him (he kind of comfort him in Fate/Zero). Also he goes ALL out for the remnants of Angra Mainyu in Ataraxia, so...
 
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