Strongest Servant? *spoilers*

-Z15- said:
Zero Berserker with an actual decent master would be disgusting.

-Z15- said:
I'm assuming that each servant have a very great master (Rin, Sakura, etc.) If this is true, then Gilgamesh is the strongest, then Zero Berserker.

Zero Berserker with an actual decent master would be disgusting.

sallym613 said:


Uhh...disgusting? o_0

sallym613 said:


Uhh...disgusting? o_0

BloodRequiem said:


zero zerker beating hercules...
zero zerker beating archer...
no way

-Z15- said:


By disgusting, I mean very powerful.



Remember in UBW when Hercules lost to Gil's GOB?
Remember in Zero when Zero Berserker throw the weapons back at Gil?

As for Stay Night Archer, I might have to re-think about it.

ataraxial said:

Problem is that he doesn't have access to GoB himself.

ataraxial said:

He means disgusting as in disgustingly strong.
But like BR said, Zero Berserker would have trouble with FSN Berserker for sure.
He could probably beat FSN Archer if he doesn't let him put up UBW though.

-Z15- said:


By disgusting, I mean very powerful.

BloodRequiem said:


zero zerker beating hercules...
zero zerker beating archer...
no way

-Z15- said:


Remember in UBW when Hercules lost to Gil's GOB?
Remember in Zero when Zero Berserker throw the weapons back at Gil?

As for Stay Night Archer, I might have to re-think about it.

BloodRequiem said:

Problem is that he doesn't have access to GoB himself.

-----

^basically this
its a servant vs servant fight
Gil is not gonna provide him with NPs

and even without UBW
id like to see lancelot dodge gae bolg spear of striking death flight (not the piercing heart version)
tank a caladbolg which razed a cemetery
outrun hrunting which is basically mach 13.4

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>Problem is that he doesn't have access to GoB himself
Well of course. In the novel it said that no matter who the servant, no one could block a force of 32 Noble Phantasms. Even though I disagree with this, whatever the book says goes.

>id like to see lancelot dodge gae bolg spear of striking death flight (not the piercing heart version)
With ZB's high speed and the ability to make weapons his, ZB would do the same thing he did to Gil. You guys said it yourself that No one would provide him with NPs.

>tank a caladbolg which razed a cemetery
Now this is a tough argument. Caladbolg is an A-rank NP, while ZB's Eternal Arms Mstership and Knight of Honor are A+ and A++ respectively. If ZB was able to grab some of Gil's NP's (some of which were probably A+ or higher) then he has the ability to grab Caladbolg, however, I'm not sure if ZB is strong enough to survive with the weapon in hand or survive the explosion it might cause.

Once again, Stay night Archer vs ZB might take some re-thinking.

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lol...
grabbing BPs...
BPs are prana bombs made to detonate on impact
corruption isnt instantaneous
not to mention the structure of the BP is supported by archer's prana any outside interference will break the copy

ataraxial said:

The quoting is so screwed up it's not even funny.
Anyways, yeah, there's no way ZeroZerker could grab a Broken Phantasm since they would just explode on contact. Knight of Honor can't activate on an exploding missile. However, for Archer to use BPs, he has to be far enough away, which is something ZZ would not let happen if they were fighting one on one.

Edit: Fixed the quotes more or less.

BloodRequiem said:
in a hand to hand fight between them it all comes down to whether or not lancelot can survive crane wing 3 chains

ssjokg said:
Remind me what's crane wing 3 chains....
My brain is stuck on derp right now....

ssjokg said:
The one like what Shirou used in one of HF's bad ends?I never saw it... damn it...

ssjokg said:
I knew the move bad not the name. I learned something new about FSN.....

And apparently Archer would be even more dangerous if he had the original Kanshou and Bakuya or be able to replicate it at 100%(I think the tracing always reduces the power)

From Complete Material 3:
Q: If the original Kansho and Bakuya take the stage in the Holy Grail War, as the twin swords reaching the realm of Gods due to the sacrifice of human lives, will they possess powers as Noble Phantasms? Or, since they did not have wielders in the legend, thus cannot become Noble Phantasms?
A: Absolutely without a doubt that they will be true Noble Phantasms. They will be extremely strong anti-monster Noble Phantasms. Rider's ultimate form--Gorgon Lv100, or the extra-dimensional evil god summoned by Gilles, will all be cut down in a single strike.

BloodRequiem said:


that move shirou uses in heavens feel bad end to beat saber alter
yeh that

its debatable whether or not lancelot can survive all that
as a berserker he loses the capability to think and all he can do is charge and leaves openings
which basically completes the objective of the attack which is to leave the opponent unable to defend

In Archer's version, the first pair is thrown at the enemy with the purpose of being deflected, while the second is prepared for close range combat. While the enemy is off guard, he slashes with the second pair, and the thrown pair returns and hits the enemy from behind. Finally, the third pair is modified through reinforcement, called Overedge, which makes them twice the size and covers the blade from the ridge to the edge with feather-like splinters, and he performs the final strike with them

oh and i also forgot
NLBW-instant kill

ataraxial said:

ZeroZerker could catch the first thrown pair instead of deflecting them, which would break the combo entirely.
Also, Archer can't just use NLBW out of nowhere, he has to first analyze Heracles in action.

BloodRequiem said:
he doesnt need the first pair to hit in order to complete the combo its just extra hit to distract the enemy- the real hit is the 3rd one
he can pull off a NLBW as long as he sees that giant axe sword which he does in all routes

this is not hand to hand but just clarifying what i meant about archer using gae bolg
gae bolg striking death flight- explodes into a mass of thorns - AOE

and unless you plan on starting off lancelot and archer face to face no distance in between it will not result in a melee combat

ataraxial said:

Right, but without the first pair coming back to hit/distract ZZ, the combo would be much less effective. It would just become two strikes with Kanshou and Bakuya, with the second one augmented a bit instead of three parts that are unavoidable in combination. ZZ could avoid it/defend against it.

It doesn't make sense to let Archer see the axe-sword before fighting ZZ. That's almost as bad as randomly having Gil nearby to provide ZZ with NPs or allowing ZZ to first fight Gil and keep a couple NPs. Sure, Archer sees it in every route, but he doesn't see it immediately - we should go by their conditions at summoning to be fair in our comparisons.

Also, how else would we start them off? Clearly they should start somewhat close to each other. Not to mention that Archer would probably engage ZZ first in close combat to judge how powerful he is and to analyze him a bit. Especially with For Someone's Glory, Archer would not pull out the big guns right away since it's too risky to do that if the opponent is aware of him, which he has to be for it to be a fair fight.

TheRealBoyd said:
Wait a second, why do you think the projections would break just because Lancelot grabbed them? It's not like the Jeweled Sword broke when Shirou gave it to Rin. Furthermore, he doesn't have to comprehend their structure to use them, and they are (fake) Noble Phantasms, just one rank lower. Even if they aren't Noble Phantasms, you know what else isn't a Noble Phantasm? A lamppost, an F-15, and machine guns. If a freaking lamppost won't shatter by adding prana to it, why would projections?

That said, UBW blade spam would be harder on Lancelot than GoB spam, since UBW has a faster firing rate.

BloodRequiem said:


a lamp post is a physical being
a projection is a blasphemy constantly under rejection from the world and is maintained by the caster's image and prana
they are just masses of prana given the capabilities of a noble phantasm prana bursting etc with them is impossible
knight of honor:
The ability soaks the affected items with Berserker's prana, muddled with bloodthirstiness and hatred, that permeates from his hands
lancelot's prana is corrupt and =/= archer's prana

TheRealBoyd said:
Hm, alright, thanks for clearing that up then, you two.

But then, like I said, he traced the Jeweled Sword in Heaven's Feel, right? Why didn't that expire?

BloodRequiem said:
condition of summoning - by that logic saber wont get avalon because kiritsugu doesnt give it to her and since no outside interference or contact, shirou cant give it to her either

again the argument with Gil holds
EMIYA is an archer so facing him straight off in a hand to hand combat is unfair no?
moreover EMIYA doesnt go full retard due to CIS like Gil
the guy is calculating, smart, preps like kiritsugu and he isnt bound by his pride to engage in a hand to hand combat with lancelot

technically speaking archer does not need UBW to be open to spam as shown by when he trapped rin behind that wall of swords while he went after shirou and saber
lancelot cannot do the same thing he did against Gil because the moment KoH acts on the projection, the projection will shatter like when shirou tried practice on the lamps
projections are not noble phantasms and lancelot cannot comprehend their structure and composition therefore its just like what shirou said, carelessly adding prana will break the object
not to mention the structure of the projection is maintained by EMIYA's prana
unless lancelot somehow learned projection magecraft and has an affinity with swords now...

keep in mind we haven't even discussed UBW yet which makes swords cheaper and gains wider spam potential

ataraxial said:

Hmm I wonder what would happen with projection sword spam. ZZ would have some trouble, but the swords themselve are also a lot weaker than those from Gil's GoB...

Leon-Gun said:
The sword are weaker but none of Gil's swords can potentially blow up on you, let alone the fact no Heroic Spirit would blow up their own NP just as an attack, that's blasphemy of the highest degree to them since their NP's are literally a part of them (that's actually part of why Saber was shocked at Lancer's choice to destroy his spear voluntarily). SO basically Archer has the elements of uncertainty and range on his side. He's a pretty versatile Hero, stats aside.

ataraxial said:

This is true, although I don't think he can use Broken Phantasm in conjunction with UBW-type sword spam. That would simply take too much prana. Either he uses BP as a single powerful attack or he can project "normal" swords en masse.

BloodRequiem said:


he can because swords are cheap as hell inside UBW
but it is just counter productive because making them into BPs would increase the cost while inside UBW normal swords could do the job perfectly against lancelot
ofc hes not gonna BP every single sword in there
hold lancelot back with spam- continue with hrunting or caladbolg 2

ssjokg said:
I doubt berserker lancelot would understand what Archer is doing while chanting.I mean,he just stood there before attacking Gil and Saber the first time they fight.The point is that Lancelot is a berserker here.In any other class he DEFINITELY wouldnt let EMIYA say a word OR get away...

ssjokg said:
well yeah that's what Berserkers(in any story) are supposed to do that and thats why I like them.

"Engrish" I loled so hard

ataraxial said:
Pretty much the definition of PIS. What should've logically happened was for him to immediately attack Gil, but no, we had to hear everyone else be all like, "OMG I can't read his status!11one" first.

As a Berserker, it would make sense for him to immediately attack if Archer suddenly got down on his knees and started speaking Engrish.

Denithan said:


Sorry to kickstart a topic that seems all but queitened down by this point, but I was actually wondering what we were basing the need for Archer to suddenly get down on one knee in order to pray for UBW arose from, as I don't remember it being an actual NECESSITY in the Visual Novel, and we all know the FSN's anime is so far up it's own rear that it's almost laughable. In the VN, I can quite distinctly remember Archer being able to say seperate parts of the Prayer whilst doing something else entirely, which was also present in the anime when I think about it B|

It's also an interesting thing to point out that Shirou, a much younger, far less experienced, and far less powerful version of Archer, was capable of buliding up his own Rho Aias, which I need to clarify, he would've garnered for himself from "fusing" with Archer's memories during their conflict, as arose most of the weapons he had in UBW at the time of activation VS Gil, whilst still being able to recite each part of the chant seperately. In fact, I'm relatively unaware as to why Archer couldn't be smart about setting up UBW, and using a bait to bring a Servant within range of his boundaries, whilst reciting seperate parts of the chant whilst waiting for them. Probably the only Servants who have the potential to completely avoid this are servants who are aware of his trap, or else, people with a far greater range then Archer.

Also, on a side note, wouldn't Archer have NLBW from his experiences in the past, as Shirou, where he participated in the same Holy Grail War against Berserker? UBW isn't like a human mind, but rather, a database. Or at least, that's how we're introduced to it, so I'll stick to that. Once it's on record, it should be within reason for it to stay on record. And as a result of Shirou essentially being a sword, I'm pretty sure he instantly analyzes any close range weaponry he sees for future replication.

I'll agree with you with Berserker's lack of charging being nothing more than PIS, PIS that wasn't even necessary, as ultimately, the Masters all could've gone into "OMFG, HAXORS" mode later on, AFTER THE BATTLE.

Now, I may have missed something in what I saw of UBW in the Visual Novel, or even on the Wiki, and that's really the only reason I'm making a comment because if I did, I can't find it.

Ultimately though, I will have to say that in raw power, Gilgamesh EASILY exceeds almost any other heroic spirit that could ever be summoned, minus Enkidu himself. The main fault of Gilgamesh is a fault that was present in himself in the mythologies, where he displays great arrogance, and treats the world as his, as he does in Fate. Otherwise, I really don't feel like reciting what MANY people have said before me. Surely, there are people who are perfectly capable of countering him (Saber w/ Avalon, EMIYA, Shirou, Lancelot) there may even be hundreds, but no one can deny the raw power of having what is equivalant to hundreds to millions of small bombs being launched at you as if out of a gattling gun. Nor can anyone deny the power to tear the dimensions athunder with Enuma Elish.

ssjokg said:
I dont think that EMIYA needs to go on his knees for the chant but I think some level of concentration is needed and having Berserker Lancelot attacking you doesnt help much...

Shirou never becomes the Heroic Spirit EMIYA that we see in the VN.Especially in Heaven's Feel where he discards his ideals to save Sakura.In Fate and UBW he has some chances to be hero in the future but definitely not EMIYA.

Leon-Gun said:
Technically he has to actively do the first step to tracing which is where he learns the blueprints of the weapons and skills, something I doubt a Shirou without aid of Archer would have really thought about. Shirou tends to store almost all weapons automatically because he has an automatic tendency to try and trace everything he faces.

That said, don't really think about it much, just the most important part is that Archer is not a face to face warrior. He himself said it "I'm not a swordsman". He's an strategic magician and unorthodox archer who specializes in always leading the battle and looking for good range. Lancelot would own him in short range battle yeah, the little detail is, what if he can't get in close range. Forcing Archer into an hypothetic "he has to be close range" situation is just pointless because he doesn't win by sheer skill or strength but by leading the battle his way.

ataraxial said:
Truth.
It's kind of hard to figure out how to make a battle "fair" though, if we're pitting Servants against each other to decide which one is stronger. I'm not saying that "he has to be close range," but they have to somehow start in a position whether neither have an automatic upper hand. In terms of realism, most Grail War battles start at close range, so that should also be taken into consideration.

Denithan said:


To be honest, in the specific case of these two, I'd probably say that UBW is a half-fair fighting ground on the point that it infinitely creates swords for Archer to use, of course, assuming that Lancelot would then be capable of utilizing the Projections as his own Phantasms, in which case, he'd bypass the penalties placed on them by being Projections, and probably make them fully capable of matching their originals. Otherwise, it puts things one-sidedly in Archer's favor.

If so, then it's hard to gauge which of the two would win in such a circumstance. Archer could attempt raining blades on him, but we'd get a GoB repeat, and we can say that Lancelot would have the edge on account of being the superior close range fighter, but then we also need to take into account the halved prana cost on Archer, the lack of penalties, and his ability to either summon swords, or else shoot swords, meaning he could quite possibly shoot swords from any number of different directions at once, making it superior to GoB in that instance. Then the question is, could Lance destroy projectiles from every direction at once, and beyond that, can UBW even do such?

Either way, if we're looking in terms of pure power, Archer dwindles behind most of the other servants we know of, and Lancelot is definetly higher up on the list than people seem to credit him. Lancelot had a few penalties placed on him, and was not at all capable of fighting at full power in Fate/Zero. He only ultimately lost as a result of causing Kariya to use up all his prana at the last second, so that alone indicates his limitations. Still die against Heracles though... That's just a BS match up for Lancey xD

Otherwise, on account of his NP, Alexander can probably be considered a close second to Gil. Given the right circumstance, where the Reality Marble was completed before Gil had brought out Ea, and started charging Enuma Elish, it's questionable if he'd even have time to defend himself.

So, in terms of pure power, definetly Gil or Alexander, with Hercules and Lancelot following behind. In terms of pure skill, we're probably looking at FZ Assassin and EMIYA (on account of their versatilities), Lancers from both Generations, on account of not heavily relying on their NP's (especially in FZ's case) Sasaki, as he achieved Saber's level through pure skill, not gifts, or abilities, of any sort. Then we also have to look at "Ability", where you'd get Gil, Saber, Medea and the others arising in the top area. It really depends on how you mean the "Strongest Servant", as they all are present with one asset or another that would give them an edge over the other Servants (Yes, even Zero Caster had Prelati's Spellbook, which, when coupled with the right master combination, is probably lethal). Especially since in the point of making an even Playing Field, we'd have to assume their using Masters of neigh identical level, so as to not give an unfair advantage.

Really though, if you're looking for "fairest" scenarios, we're probably looking at areas where both servants involved have an advantage granted to them naturally. Most probably, Gil would win in most of these situations if he wasn't being an idiotic prick.

BloodRequiem said:
KoH wont work on projections so trying to grab them will result in no NPs and being wide open
lancelot couldnt even counter when Gil threw 16 1 by 1 against him so theres no way he can tank UBW spam
lancelot always had enough prana before kariya died and the berserker class cant hold back so he was always fighting at his full power


and really archer is not weak in close combat
he friggin held off rin saber long enough to open UBW
he didnt get stomped against saber lancer assassin and berserker
also sparks liner high anyone? (not archer but shirou used archer's technique)

"neither have automatic upper hand"
lancelot gets an immediate upper hand when you pit him off right away in a melee fight with archer
not to mention someone decided that archer doesnt get a part of his database...really this is as fair as throwing saber 4km away from archer with his bow and hrunting in hand...might as well ignore classes

Denithan said:


I did kind of outline that I was unsure as to if Lancelot would be capable of KoH'ing a Projection within UBW, as the Reality Marble does shift the rules of reality in the favor of his projections, as opposed to leaving them as "things that should not exist" in our world. Ultimately though, I'm just unsure, so I'll take your word for that one.

Otherwise, I don't think anyone has said Archer is weak in Close Combat O-o I said in pure power, he's lacking compared to some of the others, unless we look strictly at his Broken Phantasms, which are kinda only applicable from a range to start with. There are a long list of reasons why Archer is more than capable of defending himself in close quarters, and I did kind of point out that Archer was capable of defending himself in Close Quarters with Hercules, and still managed to kill him 6 times in the Stay Route, which took place inside the Einzbern Mansion, which DEFINETLY was not an ideal situation for him to fight in, even in Close Quarters.

Also, neither having an automatic upper hand could only be applied in a situation where the both are given a default advantage. If Lancelot was capable of KoH'ing UBW's projections, it's quite likely that it'd result in a mutual advantage, unless Archer was able to shoot him from all angles, and I don't think we've ever seen him do such, so we can't exactly be sure, at least while staying to what we KNOW, that he can do so.

Otherwise, I'm just going to point out the difference between "Fighting at full power" and "Not having limitations". Otherwise, I suppose you do have a strong point. In pure power though, no one can deny that Lancelot was definetly further up there, and were he summoned under the Saber class, would undoubtedly be more than capable of matching any of the other servants we've seen, just as Hercules would be stronger as an Archer class, as opposed to a Berserker Class.

And I need to ask, I'm going to guess the database comment was in respect to NLBW?