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Strongest Servant? *spoilers*

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Poll: Who is the strongest servant in Fate-verse?


05-04-12, 5:03 PM

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well yeah that's what Berserkers(in any story) are supposed to do that and thats why I like them.

"Engrish" I loled so hard
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05-04-12, 6:41 PM

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Diarmudo gets a vote-o!
He's clearly not the strongest servant, but I'm happy about this since he's a boss.

ssjokg said:
well yeah that's what Berserkers(in any story) are supposed to do that and thats why I like them.

"Engrish" I loled so hard

Yup yup.
 
05-09-12, 12:59 AM

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ataraxial said:
Pretty much the definition of PIS. What should've logically happened was for him to immediately attack Gil, but no, we had to hear everyone else be all like, "OMG I can't read his status!11one" first.

As a Berserker, it would make sense for him to immediately attack if Archer suddenly got down on his knees and started speaking Engrish.


Sorry to kickstart a topic that seems all but queitened down by this point, but I was actually wondering what we were basing the need for Archer to suddenly get down on one knee in order to pray for UBW arose from, as I don't remember it being an actual NECESSITY in the Visual Novel, and we all know the FSN's anime is so far up it's own rear that it's almost laughable. In the VN, I can quite distinctly remember Archer being able to say seperate parts of the Prayer whilst doing something else entirely, which was also present in the anime when I think about it B|

It's also an interesting thing to point out that Shirou, a much younger, far less experienced, and far less powerful version of Archer, was capable of buliding up his own Rho Aias, which I need to clarify, he would've garnered for himself from "fusing" with Archer's memories during their conflict, as arose most of the weapons he had in UBW at the time of activation VS Gil, whilst still being able to recite each part of the chant seperately. In fact, I'm relatively unaware as to why Archer couldn't be smart about setting up UBW, and using a bait to bring a Servant within range of his boundaries, whilst reciting seperate parts of the chant whilst waiting for them. Probably the only Servants who have the potential to completely avoid this are servants who are aware of his trap, or else, people with a far greater range then Archer.

Also, on a side note, wouldn't Archer have NLBW from his experiences in the past, as Shirou, where he participated in the same Holy Grail War against Berserker? UBW isn't like a human mind, but rather, a database. Or at least, that's how we're introduced to it, so I'll stick to that. Once it's on record, it should be within reason for it to stay on record. And as a result of Shirou essentially being a sword, I'm pretty sure he instantly analyzes any close range weaponry he sees for future replication.

I'll agree with you with Berserker's lack of charging being nothing more than PIS, PIS that wasn't even necessary, as ultimately, the Masters all could've gone into "OMFG, HAXORS" mode later on, AFTER THE BATTLE.

Now, I may have missed something in what I saw of UBW in the Visual Novel, or even on the Wiki, and that's really the only reason I'm making a comment because if I did, I can't find it.

Ultimately though, I will have to say that in raw power, Gilgamesh EASILY exceeds almost any other heroic spirit that could ever be summoned, minus Enkidu himself. The main fault of Gilgamesh is a fault that was present in himself in the mythologies, where he displays great arrogance, and treats the world as his, as he does in Fate. Otherwise, I really don't feel like reciting what MANY people have said before me. Surely, there are people who are perfectly capable of countering him (Saber w/ Avalon, EMIYA, Shirou, Lancelot) there may even be hundreds, but no one can deny the raw power of having what is equivalant to hundreds to millions of small bombs being launched at you as if out of a gattling gun. Nor can anyone deny the power to tear the dimensions athunder with Enuma Elish.
 
05-09-12, 1:13 AM

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Denithan said:
ataraxial said:
Pretty much the definition of PIS. What should've logically happened was for him to immediately attack Gil, but no, we had to hear everyone else be all like, "OMG I can't read his status!11one" first.

As a Berserker, it would make sense for him to immediately attack if Archer suddenly got down on his knees and started speaking Engrish.


Sorry to kickstart a topic that seems all but queitened down by this point, but I was actually wondering what we were basing the need for Archer to suddenly get down on one knee in order to pray for UBW arose from, as I don't remember it being an actual NECESSITY in the Visual Novel, and we all know the FSN's anime is so far up it's own rear that it's almost laughable. In the VN, I can quite distinctly remember Archer being able to say seperate parts of the Prayer whilst doing something else entirely, which was also present in the anime when I think about it B|

It's also an interesting thing to point out that Shirou, a much younger, far less experienced, and far less powerful version of Archer, was capable of buliding up his own Rho Aias, which I need to clarify, he would've garnered for himself from "fusing" with Archer's memories during their conflict, as arose most of the weapons he had in UBW at the time of activation VS Gil, whilst still being able to recite each part of the chant seperately. In fact, I'm relatively unaware as to why Archer couldn't be smart about setting up UBW, and using a bait to bring a Servant within range of his boundaries, whilst reciting seperate parts of the chant whilst waiting for them. Probably the only Servants who have the potential to completely avoid this are servants who are aware of his trap, or else, people with a far greater range then Archer.

Also, on a side note, wouldn't Archer have NLBW from his experiences in the past, as Shirou, where he participated in the same Holy Grail War against Berserker? UBW isn't like a human mind, but rather, a database. Or at least, that's how we're introduced to it, so I'll stick to that. Once it's on record, it should be within reason for it to stay on record. And as a result of Shirou essentially being a sword, I'm pretty sure he instantly analyzes any close range weaponry he sees for future replication.

I'll agree with you with Berserker's lack of charging being nothing more than PIS, PIS that wasn't even necessary, as ultimately, the Masters all could've gone into "OMFG, HAXORS" mode later on, AFTER THE BATTLE.

Now, I may have missed something in what I saw of UBW in the Visual Novel, or even on the Wiki, and that's really the only reason I'm making a comment because if I did, I can't find it.

Ultimately though, I will have to say that in raw power, Gilgamesh EASILY exceeds almost any other heroic spirit that could ever be summoned, minus Enkidu himself. The main fault of Gilgamesh is a fault that was present in himself in the mythologies, where he displays great arrogance, and treats the world as his, as he does in Fate. Otherwise, I really don't feel like reciting what MANY people have said before me. Surely, there are people who are perfectly capable of countering him (Saber w/ Avalon, EMIYA, Shirou, Lancelot) there may even be hundreds, but no one can deny the raw power of having what is equivalant to hundreds to millions of small bombs being launched at you as if out of a gattling gun. Nor can anyone deny the power to tear the dimensions athunder with Enuma Elish.


I dont think that EMIYA needs to go on his knees for the chant but I think some level of concentration is needed and having Berserker Lancelot attacking you doesnt help much...

Shirou never becomes the Heroic Spirit EMIYA that we see in the VN.Especially in Heaven's Feel where he discards his ideals to save Sakura.In Fate and UBW he has some chances to be hero in the future but definitely not EMIYA.
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05-09-12, 1:27 AM

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ssjokg said:
I dont think that EMIYA needs to go on his knees for the chant but I think some level of concentration is needed and having Berserker Lancelot attacking you doesnt help much...

Shirou never becomes the Heroic Spirit EMIYA that we see in the VN.Especially in Heaven's Feel where he discards his ideals to save Sakura.In Fate and UBW he has some chances to be hero in the future but definitely not EMIYA.


I'll agree with the Berserker Lancelot asset, but we do know that even with Berserker baring down on him in Close Quarters, Archer was capable enough to kill him up to 6 times, though, if this involved UBW or not is still not known.

And I know Shirou won't evolve into the Heroic Spirit EMIYA, Nasu addressed in Complete Material III that in none of the Routes would Shirou become the Heroic Spirit EMIYA, however, the possibility still remained in all three (In Heaven's Feel, they would if he ever took back up his old ideals), although, it's less than a 1% chance.

However, it's also known that EMIYA, the Heroic Spirit, did live through the Grail War in a way akin to how Shirou did in the Stay Route. This is somewhat present by the fact that he still had Rin's amulet, all those years later, meaning that his death at the hands of Lancer certainly did occur, and with Lancer's determination to finish a job, it's quite likely that he still became the Master of Saber. He was also fully aware of Avalon being in Shirou, something that Shirou only learnt himself in the Stay route. It's also said in Complete Material III that Shirou dreamed of Excalibur prior to the Holy Grail War as it had already been decided that he would become the master of Saber, and as such, magical energy began to course through Avalon itself. Which all leads to EMIYA having participated in the same war Shirou himself did, although, the Archer of his war was a different entity. This indicates that unless Gilgamesh outright killed Berserker in the original timeline, then Archer should have witnessed the Axe-Sword version of Nine-Lives, giving birth to NLBW.
 
05-09-12, 7:37 AM

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Technically he has to actively do the first step to tracing which is where he learns the blueprints of the weapons and skills, something I doubt a Shirou without aid of Archer would have really thought about. Shirou tends to store almost all weapons automatically because he has an automatic tendency to try and trace everything he faces.

That said, don't really think about it much, just the most important part is that Archer is not a face to face warrior. He himself said it "I'm not a swordsman". He's an strategic magician and unorthodox archer who specializes in always leading the battle and looking for good range. Lancelot would own him in short range battle yeah, the little detail is, what if he can't get in close range. Forcing Archer into an hypothetic "he has to be close range" situation is just pointless because he doesn't win by sheer skill or strength but by leading the battle his way.

 
05-09-12, 8:21 AM

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Leon-Gun said:
Technically he has to actively do the first step to tracing which is where he learns the blueprints of the weapons and skills, something I doubt a Shirou without aid of Archer would have really thought about. Shirou tends to store almost all weapons automatically because he has an automatic tendency to try and trace everything he faces.

That said, don't really think about it much, just the most important part is that Archer is not a face to face warrior. He himself said it "I'm not a swordsman". He's an strategic magician and unorthodox archer who specializes in always leading the battle and looking for good range. Lancelot would own him in short range battle yeah, the little detail is, what if he can't get in close range. Forcing Archer into an hypothetic "he has to be close range" situation is just pointless because he doesn't win by sheer skill or strength but by leading the battle his way.

Truth.
It's kind of hard to figure out how to make a battle "fair" though, if we're pitting Servants against each other to decide which one is stronger. I'm not saying that "he has to be close range," but they have to somehow start in a position whether neither have an automatic upper hand. In terms of realism, most Grail War battles start at close range, so that should also be taken into consideration.
 
05-09-12, 8:49 AM

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ataraxial said:
Truth.
It's kind of hard to figure out how to make a battle "fair" though, if we're pitting Servants against each other to decide which one is stronger. I'm not saying that "he has to be close range," but they have to somehow start in a position whether neither have an automatic upper hand. In terms of realism, most Grail War battles start at close range, so that should also be taken into consideration.


To be honest, in the specific case of these two, I'd probably say that UBW is a half-fair fighting ground on the point that it infinitely creates swords for Archer to use, of course, assuming that Lancelot would then be capable of utilizing the Projections as his own Phantasms, in which case, he'd bypass the penalties placed on them by being Projections, and probably make them fully capable of matching their originals. Otherwise, it puts things one-sidedly in Archer's favor.

If so, then it's hard to gauge which of the two would win in such a circumstance. Archer could attempt raining blades on him, but we'd get a GoB repeat, and we can say that Lancelot would have the edge on account of being the superior close range fighter, but then we also need to take into account the halved prana cost on Archer, the lack of penalties, and his ability to either summon swords, or else shoot swords, meaning he could quite possibly shoot swords from any number of different directions at once, making it superior to GoB in that instance. Then the question is, could Lance destroy projectiles from every direction at once, and beyond that, can UBW even do such?

Either way, if we're looking in terms of pure power, Archer dwindles behind most of the other servants we know of, and Lancelot is definetly higher up on the list than people seem to credit him. Lancelot had a few penalties placed on him, and was not at all capable of fighting at full power in Fate/Zero. He only ultimately lost as a result of causing Kariya to use up all his prana at the last second, so that alone indicates his limitations. Still die against Heracles though... That's just a BS match up for Lancey xD

Otherwise, on account of his NP, Alexander can probably be considered a close second to Gil. Given the right circumstance, where the Reality Marble was completed before Gil had brought out Ea, and started charging Enuma Elish, it's questionable if he'd even have time to defend himself.

So, in terms of pure power, definetly Gil or Alexander, with Hercules and Lancelot following behind. In terms of pure skill, we're probably looking at FZ Assassin and EMIYA (on account of their versatilities), Lancers from both Generations, on account of not heavily relying on their NP's (especially in FZ's case) Sasaki, as he achieved Saber's level through pure skill, not gifts, or abilities, of any sort. Then we also have to look at "Ability", where you'd get Gil, Saber, Medea and the others arising in the top area. It really depends on how you mean the "Strongest Servant", as they all are present with one asset or another that would give them an edge over the other Servants (Yes, even Zero Caster had Prelati's Spellbook, which, when coupled with the right master combination, is probably lethal). Especially since in the point of making an even Playing Field, we'd have to assume their using Masters of neigh identical level, so as to not give an unfair advantage.

Really though, if you're looking for "fairest" scenarios, we're probably looking at areas where both servants involved have an advantage granted to them naturally. Most probably, Gil would win in most of these situations if he wasn't being an idiotic prick.
 
05-09-12, 9:20 AM

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Denithan said:
ataraxial said:
Truth.
It's kind of hard to figure out how to make a battle "fair" though, if we're pitting Servants against each other to decide which one is stronger. I'm not saying that "he has to be close range," but they have to somehow start in a position whether neither have an automatic upper hand. In terms of realism, most Grail War battles start at close range, so that should also be taken into consideration.


To be honest, in the specific case of these two, I'd probably say that UBW is a half-fair fighting ground on the point that it infinitely creates swords for Archer to use, of course, assuming that Lancelot would then be capable of utilizing the Projections as his own Phantasms, in which case, he'd bypass the penalties placed on them by being Projections, and probably make them fully capable of matching their originals. Otherwise, it puts things one-sidedly in Archer's favor.

If so, then it's hard to gauge which of the two would win in such a circumstance. Archer could attempt raining blades on him, but we'd get a GoB repeat, and we can say that Lancelot would have the edge on account of being the superior close range fighter, but then we also need to take into account the halved prana cost on Archer, the lack of penalties, and his ability to either summon swords, or else shoot swords, meaning he could quite possibly shoot swords from any number of different directions at once, making it superior to GoB in that instance. Then the question is, could Lance destroy projectiles from every direction at once, and beyond that, can UBW even do such?

Either way, if we're looking in terms of pure power, Archer dwindles behind most of the other servants we know of, and Lancelot is definetly higher up on the list than people seem to credit him. Lancelot had a few penalties placed on him, and was not at all capable of fighting at full power in Fate/Zero. He only ultimately lost as a result of causing Kariya to use up all his prana at the last second, so that alone indicates his limitations. Still die against Heracles though... That's just a BS match up for Lancey xD

Otherwise, on account of his NP, Alexander can probably be considered a close second to Gil. Given the right circumstance, where the Reality Marble was completed before Gil had brought out Ea, and started charging Enuma Elish, it's questionable if he'd even have time to defend himself.

So, in terms of pure power, definetly Gil or Alexander, with Hercules and Lancelot following behind. In terms of pure skill, we're probably looking at FZ Assassin and EMIYA (on account of their versatilities), Lancers from both Generations, on account of not heavily relying on their NP's (especially in FZ's case) Sasaki, as he achieved Saber's level through pure skill, not gifts, or abilities, of any sort. Then we also have to look at "Ability", where you'd get Gil, Saber, Medea and the others arising in the top area. It really depends on how you mean the "Strongest Servant", as they all are present with one asset or another that would give them an edge over the other Servants (Yes, even Zero Caster had Prelati's Spellbook, which, when coupled with the right master combination, is probably lethal). Especially since in the point of making an even Playing Field, we'd have to assume their using Masters of neigh identical level, so as to not give an unfair advantage.

Really though, if you're looking for "fairest" scenarios, we're probably looking at areas where both servants involved have an advantage granted to them naturally. Most probably, Gil would win in most of these situations if he wasn't being an idiotic prick.


KoH wont work on projections so trying to grab them will result in no NPs and being wide open
lancelot couldnt even counter when Gil threw 16 1 by 1 against him so theres no way he can tank UBW spam
lancelot always had enough prana before kariya died and the berserker class cant hold back so he was always fighting at his full power


and really archer is not weak in close combat
he friggin held off rin saber long enough to open UBW
he didnt get stomped against saber lancer assassin and berserker
also sparks liner high anyone? (not archer but shirou used archer's technique)

"neither have automatic upper hand"
lancelot gets an immediate upper hand when you pit him off right away in a melee fight with archer
not to mention someone decided that archer doesnt get a part of his database...really this is as fair as throwing saber 4km away from archer with his bow and hrunting in hand...might as well ignore classes
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-09-12, 9:38 AM

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BloodRequiem said:
KoH wont work on projections so trying to grab them will result in no NPs and being wide open
lancelot couldnt even counter when Gil threw 16 1 by 1 against him so theres no way he can tank UBW spam
lancelot always had enough prana before kariya died and the berserker class cant hold back so he was always fighting at his full power


and really archer is not weak in close combat
he friggin held off rin saber long enough to open UBW
he didnt get stomped against saber lancer assassin and berserker
also sparks liner high anyone? (not archer but shirou used archer's technique)

"neither have automatic upper hand"
lancelot gets an immediate upper hand when you pit him off right away in a melee fight with archer
not to mention someone decided that archer doesnt get a part of his database...really this is as fair as throwing saber 4km away from archer with his bow and hrunting in hand...might as well ignore classes


I did kind of outline that I was unsure as to if Lancelot would be capable of KoH'ing a Projection within UBW, as the Reality Marble does shift the rules of reality in the favor of his projections, as opposed to leaving them as "things that should not exist" in our world. Ultimately though, I'm just unsure, so I'll take your word for that one.

Otherwise, I don't think anyone has said Archer is weak in Close Combat O-o I said in pure power, he's lacking compared to some of the others, unless we look strictly at his Broken Phantasms, which are kinda only applicable from a range to start with. There are a long list of reasons why Archer is more than capable of defending himself in close quarters, and I did kind of point out that Archer was capable of defending himself in Close Quarters with Hercules, and still managed to kill him 6 times in the Stay Route, which took place inside the Einzbern Mansion, which DEFINETLY was not an ideal situation for him to fight in, even in Close Quarters.

Also, neither having an automatic upper hand could only be applied in a situation where the both are given a default advantage. If Lancelot was capable of KoH'ing UBW's projections, it's quite likely that it'd result in a mutual advantage, unless Archer was able to shoot him from all angles, and I don't think we've ever seen him do such, so we can't exactly be sure, at least while staying to what we KNOW, that he can do so.

Otherwise, I'm just going to point out the difference between "Fighting at full power" and "Not having limitations". Otherwise, I suppose you do have a strong point. In pure power though, no one can deny that Lancelot was definetly further up there, and were he summoned under the Saber class, would undoubtedly be more than capable of matching any of the other servants we've seen, just as Hercules would be stronger as an Archer class, as opposed to a Berserker Class.

And I need to ask, I'm going to guess the database comment was in respect to NLBW?
 
05-09-12, 9:52 AM

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Denithan said:
BloodRequiem said:
KoH wont work on projections so trying to grab them will result in no NPs and being wide open
lancelot couldnt even counter when Gil threw 16 1 by 1 against him so theres no way he can tank UBW spam
lancelot always had enough prana before kariya died and the berserker class cant hold back so he was always fighting at his full power


and really archer is not weak in close combat
he friggin held off rin saber long enough to open UBW
he didnt get stomped against saber lancer assassin and berserker
also sparks liner high anyone? (not archer but shirou used archer's technique)

"neither have automatic upper hand"
lancelot gets an immediate upper hand when you pit him off right away in a melee fight with archer
not to mention someone decided that archer doesnt get a part of his database...really this is as fair as throwing saber 4km away from archer with his bow and hrunting in hand...might as well ignore classes


I did kind of outline that I was unsure as to if Lancelot would be capable of KoH'ing a Projection within UBW, as the Reality Marble does shift the rules of reality in the favor of his projections, as opposed to leaving them as "things that should not exist" in our world. Ultimately though, I'm just unsure, so I'll take your word for that one.

Otherwise, I don't think anyone has said Archer is weak in Close Combat O-o I said in pure power, he's lacking compared to some of the others, unless we look strictly at his Broken Phantasms, which are kinda only applicable from a range to start with. There are a long list of reasons why Archer is more than capable of defending himself in close quarters, and I did kind of point out that Archer was capable of defending himself in Close Quarters with Hercules, and still managed to kill him 6 times in the Stay Route, which took place inside the Einzbern Mansion, which DEFINETLY was not an ideal situation for him to fight in, even in Close Quarters.

Also, neither having an automatic upper hand could only be applied in a situation where the both are given a default advantage. If Lancelot was capable of KoH'ing UBW's projections, it's quite likely that it'd result in a mutual advantage, unless Archer was able to shoot him from all angles, and I don't think we've ever seen him do such, so we can't exactly be sure, at least while staying to what we KNOW, that he can do so.

Otherwise, I'm just going to point out the difference between "Fighting at full power" and "Not having limitations". Otherwise, I suppose you do have a strong point. In pure power though, no one can deny that Lancelot was definetly further up there, and were he summoned under the Saber class, would undoubtedly be more than capable of matching any of the other servants we've seen, just as Hercules would be stronger as an Archer class, as opposed to a Berserker Class.

And I need to ask, I'm going to guess the database comment was in respect to NLBW?


NLBW, gae bolg, monohosizao (depends on whether or not tsubame gaeshi comes with the sword or its kojirou's personal skill- im leaning on the personal skill side), rule breaker

close quarters thing is to people who think archer's skills are Gil level and that he would get stomped in melee
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-09-12, 1:04 PM

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Tsubame Gaeshi is not a skill of the sword itself (Kojirou has no Noble Phantasm) but of Sasaki Kojirou himself. The sword has no skills attached to it although if he'd become a Heroic Spirit it would have acquired it. At the very least, that's the "Word of God".

 
05-09-12, 1:18 PM

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Leon-Gun said:
Tsubame Gaeshi is not a skill of the sword itself (Kojirou has no Noble Phantasm) but of Sasaki Kojirou himself. The sword has no skills attached to it although if he'd become a Heroic Spirit it would have acquired it. At the very least, that's the "Word of God".


yeh thats y i dont think archer could use tsubamegaeshi even if he traces monohoshizao...
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-14-12, 9:55 PM

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The strongest servant is Zero Berserker .. ( he has only one weakness || his master -Kariya- || ) so .. =(

But ..

The best servant overall is Gilgamesh ..
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05-15-12, 12:51 AM

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ProofDarK said:
The strongest servant is Zero Berserker .. ( he has only one weakness || his master -Kariya- || ) so .. =(

But ..

The best servant overall is Gilgamesh ..


i like how you conveniently ignored a large chunk of this discussion
btw kariya argument is invalid since he was always providing berserker with enough prana
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-15-12, 3:04 AM

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BloodRequiem said:
ProofDarK said:
The strongest servant is Zero Berserker .. ( he has only one weakness || his master -Kariya- || ) so .. =(

But ..

The best servant overall is Gilgamesh ..


i like how you conveniently ignored a large chunk of this discussion
btw kariya argument is invalid since he was always providing berserker with enough prana


Yeah the Saber vs Zero Berserker end must be the biggest plotarmor Saber ever had.Come on his mana ended right before the final strike?
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05-15-12, 4:24 AM

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I dont consider UBR the true route. nor Heaven´s feel. sorry. To me is FSN and that´s it.
Gil might have enough derp moments but in FZ he showed enough intelligence to join to the strongest master and plot against his own first master, waiting to know all his enemies and saving himself by gathering precious info. Besides judging FSN,


So i still keep my opinion that Gil is not only the strongest, as well the smartest. If he didnt have that ridiculous obsession for


to me wining a war depends mostly on intelligence. i really dont think much of NPs and stats, because even the strongest of all could be eliminated if he was dumb.
and about masters, the same. If Kiritsugu had the weakest servant, judging by his intelligence he would have great amounts of chances to win.

p.s- oh and Archer from FSN is obviously a Gil fan, otherwise he wouldnt wear his hair up and would not replicate thousands of....swords. Seems like a disguised Gil fan to me.
Modified by Orulyon, 05-15-12, 4:37 AM
Being a Fujoshi is an ode to male beauty.
 
05-15-12, 4:36 AM

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Orulyon said:
oh and Archer from FSN is obviously a Gil fan, otherwise he wouldnt wear his hair up and would not replicate thousands of....swords. Seems like a disguised Gil fan to me.


I have to admit, that did make me smile a bit.

Having said that, I thought it was summarized like 7 pages in that he was the king crud of kings? O-o

Anyways, he is quite an intelligent figure, without a doubt, but his ability to remain present in our world was a result of his Independant Action A. It litterally granted him the ability to be in our world indefinetly, but for any of his abilities, he'd need an outside prana source.

Which were the kids. Which was a combined effort between him and Kirei.

So while Gilgamesh is certainly incredibly intelligent, it's questionable if that intelligence is purely credited to him. Or if one could call him the most intelligent. His main flaw is still his arrogance though. I'd actually say he's quite similiar to El Eiio or however you spell his name in this factor. El got pissed because he felt insulted, and made rash, and frankly, stupid, movements. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the incredibly prideful, and arrogant Gilgamesh, made the same mistake in a critical moment and ended up dead as a result.

Otherwise, I think we really have covered all this a fair bit. Having said that, I definetly do feel that EMIYA and Lancelot were the only two characters we've seen canonically thus far who could rival Gilgamesh. EMIYA for his origin of sword, and UBW (no one point out he has to chant it, he's clever, he could easily set a trap) and Lancey cause Lancey's Lancey.
 
05-15-12, 4:45 AM

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Denithan said:
Orulyon said:
oh and Archer from FSN is obviously a Gil fan, otherwise he wouldnt wear his hair up and would not replicate thousands of....swords. Seems like a disguised Gil fan to me.


I have to admit, that did make me smile a bit.

Having said that, I thought it was summarized like 7 pages in that he was the king crud of kings? O-o

Anyways, he is quite an intelligent figure, without a doubt, but his ability to remain present in our world was a result of his Independant Action A. It litterally granted him the ability to be in our world indefinetly, but for any of his abilities, he'd need an outside prana source.

Which were the kids. Which was a combined effort between him and Kirei.

So while Gilgamesh is certainly incredibly intelligent, it's questionable if that intelligence is purely credited to him. Or if one could call him the most intelligent. His main flaw is still his arrogance though. I'd actually say he's quite similiar to El Eiio or however you spell his name in this factor. El got pissed because he felt insulted, and made rash, and frankly, stupid, movements. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the incredibly prideful, and arrogant Gilgamesh, made the same mistake in a critical moment and ended up dead as a result.

Otherwise, I think we really have covered all this a fair bit. Having said that, I definetly do feel that EMIYA and Lancelot were the only two characters we've seen canonically thus far who could rival Gilgamesh. EMIYA for his origin of sword, and UBW (no one point out he has to chant it, he's clever, he could easily set a trap) and Lancey cause Lancey's Lancey.


LOL, i just had to say it, but i dont want people to think im bashing Archer because i love him XDBut he is definitely a Gil fan

Indeed i agree with you. Gil´s arrogance is too much. It gives him a king pose but its just too much and its a major flaw in a war.
Well ofc Gil wouldnt go anywhere without Kirei´s brain too, but i still consider him to be pretty intelligent by himself;) But well, intelligence looses when obsession or arrogance joins.
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05-15-12, 6:29 AM

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Actually, he didn't really stick with Kirei because of his brain. He just honestly liked Kirei. Gilgamesh, THE Gilgamesh who accused someone liked Tokiomi of being boring, would spend time talking to Kirei while he did boring paperwork for The Church without much complaining.

And also...


I might add Nasu did wrote Fate route first and based the eroge off it but he more or less admitted all 3 routes are equally canonical. Heaven's Feel is actually the one that feels the most a "sequel" to Zero too. Fate is just your romantic eroge story and UBW is like an action story that explains the main character but nothing else (even RIn doesn't exactly gets THAT much focus and it's her route...or it's supposed to be)..
Modified by Leon-Gun, 05-15-12, 6:32 AM

 
05-15-12, 8:03 AM

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Orulyon said:
I dont consider UBR the true route. nor Heaven´s feel. sorry. To me is FSN and that´s it.
Gil might have enough derp moments but in FZ he showed enough intelligence to join to the strongest master and plot against his own first master, waiting to know all his enemies and saving himself by gathering precious info. Besides judging FSN,


So i still keep my opinion that Gil is not only the strongest, as well the smartest. If he didnt have that ridiculous obsession for


to me wining a war depends mostly on intelligence. i really dont think much of NPs and stats, because even the strongest of all could be eliminated if he was dumb.
and about masters, the same. If Kiritsugu had the weakest servant, judging by his intelligence he would have great amounts of chances to win.

p.s- oh and Archer from FSN is obviously a Gil fan, otherwise he wouldnt wear his hair up and would not replicate thousands of....swords. Seems like a disguised Gil fan to me.


umm kirei is actually pretty shit for a master...he just loved the guy (who wouldnt?)
if he was going for the strongest master he woulda gone to kayneth
against saber there isnt really a need to bring out Ea
she has enough trouble against GOB already and she cant pull an excalibur without plothax unless she leaves herself open

Leon-Gun said:
Actually, he didn't really stick with Kirei because of his brain. He just honestly liked Kirei. Gilgamesh, THE Gilgamesh who accused someone liked Tokiomi of being boring, would spend time talking to Kirei while he did boring paperwork for The Church without much complaining.

And also...


I might add Nasu did wrote Fate route first and based the eroge off it but he more or less admitted all 3 routes are equally canonical. Heaven's Feel is actually the one that feels the most a "sequel" to Zero too. Fate is just your romantic eroge story and UBW is like an action story that explains the main character but nothing else (even RIn doesn't exactly gets THAT much focus and it's her route...or it's supposed to be)..


UBW is the basically the typical shounen (not as bad as some of the other ones out there) but yeh UBW is archer's route not rins...cuz she pretty much basically did nothing other than doing a little prana transfer with shirou...
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-15-12, 10:42 AM

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Orulyon said:
oh and Archer from FSN is obviously a Gil fan, otherwise he wouldnt wear his hair up and would not replicate thousands of....swords. Seems like a disguised Gil fan to me.


LOL! This totally made my day xD I feel tempted to put this as one of the best sayings/quotes on MAL in my blog (if you don't mind).


Anyhow, no love for FSN Lancer/Cu Chulainn? :/ I also noticed that all F/Z servants get at least one vote.
 
05-15-12, 3:48 PM

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sallym613 said:
Orulyon said:
oh and Archer from FSN is obviously a Gil fan, otherwise he wouldnt wear his hair up and would not replicate thousands of....swords. Seems like a disguised Gil fan to me.


LOL! This totally made my day xD I feel tempted to put this as one of the best sayings/quotes on MAL in my blog (if you don't mind).


Anyhow, no love for FSN Lancer/Cu Chulainn? :/ I also noticed that all F/Z servants get at least one vote.


this is a fate zero thread so obviously fsn servants arent gonna get any love...even though cu chulainn is one of the strongest servants
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-15-12, 4:01 PM

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BloodRequiem said:
sallym613 said:
Orulyon said:
oh and Archer from FSN is obviously a Gil fan, otherwise he wouldnt wear his hair up and would not replicate thousands of....swords. Seems like a disguised Gil fan to me.


LOL! This totally made my day xD I feel tempted to put this as one of the best sayings/quotes on MAL in my blog (if you don't mind).


Anyhow, no love for FSN Lancer/Cu Chulainn? :/ I also noticed that all F/Z servants get at least one vote.


this is a fate zero thread so obviously fsn servants arent gonna get any love...even though cu chulainn is one of the strongest servants


Except for Archer. And apparently Berserker (Hercules) to some extent...

But yes that's true. Especially since theres a lot of people who watched F/Z that have only watched the so-so FSN and UBW anime adaptation. Lancer didn't get to shine much in either, though slightly more so in UBW movie than in FSN anime.

I actually didn't start liking or caring for Lancer until I went through the UBW route. He's quite GAR in that one.
Modified by sallym613, 05-15-12, 4:05 PM
 
05-15-12, 5:01 PM

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sallym613 said:
BloodRequiem said:
sallym613 said:
Orulyon said:
oh and Archer from FSN is obviously a Gil fan, otherwise he wouldnt wear his hair up and would not replicate thousands of....swords. Seems like a disguised Gil fan to me.


LOL! This totally made my day xD I feel tempted to put this as one of the best sayings/quotes on MAL in my blog (if you don't mind).


Anyhow, no love for FSN Lancer/Cu Chulainn? :/ I also noticed that all F/Z servants get at least one vote.


this is a fate zero thread so obviously fsn servants arent gonna get any love...even though cu chulainn is one of the strongest servants


Except for Archer. And apparently Berserker (Hercules) to some extent...

But yes that's true. Especially since theres a lot of people who watched F/Z that have only watched the so-so FSN and UBW anime adaptation. Lancer didn't get to shine much in either, though slightly more so in UBW movie than in FSN anime.

I actually didn't start liking or caring for Lancer until I went through the UBW route. He's quite GAR in that one.


hes right under hercules in the servant tier
he can beat archer (EMIYA) easily
and seriously UBW was only one example of lancer's GAR that was present in all 3 routes
the guy is the epitome of a heroic spirit
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-15-12, 9:20 PM

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BloodRequiem said:
sallym613 said:
BloodRequiem said:
sallym613 said:
Orulyon said:
oh and Archer from FSN is obviously a Gil fan, otherwise he wouldnt wear his hair up and would not replicate thousands of....swords. Seems like a disguised Gil fan to me.


LOL! This totally made my day xD I feel tempted to put this as one of the best sayings/quotes on MAL in my blog (if you don't mind).


Anyhow, no love for FSN Lancer/Cu Chulainn? :/ I also noticed that all F/Z servants get at least one vote.


this is a fate zero thread so obviously fsn servants arent gonna get any love...even though cu chulainn is one of the strongest servants


Except for Archer. And apparently Berserker (Hercules) to some extent...

But yes that's true. Especially since theres a lot of people who watched F/Z that have only watched the so-so FSN and UBW anime adaptation. Lancer didn't get to shine much in either, though slightly more so in UBW movie than in FSN anime.

I actually didn't start liking or caring for Lancer until I went through the UBW route. He's quite GAR in that one.


hes right under hercules in the servant tier
he can beat archer (EMIYA) easily
and seriously UBW was only one example of lancer's GAR that was present in all 3 routes
the guy is the epitome of a heroic spirit


I was actually only responding to this part: "this is a fate zero thread so obviously fsn servants arent gonna get any love" xD So what I meant is that Archer does get some love from fans lol.

But yes I already know that Berserker (Hercules) could beat Archer easily (if there is no plot armor or hax for Archer).

I agree with what you mentioned about Lancer.
I have only gone through Fate and UBW routes though. And watched the anime. The only other time I remember him being GAR was when he stood against Gil to let Shirou and Saber escape even though he knew he couldn't win (and this is FSN route). I'm guessing there are more GARLancer moments in Heaven's Feel?
 
05-15-12, 9:41 PM

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sallym613 said:
BloodRequiem said:
sallym613 said:
BloodRequiem said:
sallym613 said:
Orulyon said:
oh and Archer from FSN is obviously a Gil fan, otherwise he wouldnt wear his hair up and would not replicate thousands of....swords. Seems like a disguised Gil fan to me.


LOL! This totally made my day xD I feel tempted to put this as one of the best sayings/quotes on MAL in my blog (if you don't mind).


Anyhow, no love for FSN Lancer/Cu Chulainn? :/ I also noticed that all F/Z servants get at least one vote.


this is a fate zero thread so obviously fsn servants arent gonna get any love...even though cu chulainn is one of the strongest servants


Except for Archer. And apparently Berserker (Hercules) to some extent...

But yes that's true. Especially since theres a lot of people who watched F/Z that have only watched the so-so FSN and UBW anime adaptation. Lancer didn't get to shine much in either, though slightly more so in UBW movie than in FSN anime.

I actually didn't start liking or caring for Lancer until I went through the UBW route. He's quite GAR in that one.


hes right under hercules in the servant tier
he can beat archer (EMIYA) easily
and seriously UBW was only one example of lancer's GAR that was present in all 3 routes
the guy is the epitome of a heroic spirit


I was actually only responding to this part: "this is a fate zero thread so obviously fsn servants arent gonna get any love" xD So what I meant is that Archer does get some love from fans lol.

But yes I already know that Berserker (Hercules) could beat Archer easily (if there is no plot armor or hax for Archer).

I agree with what you mentioned about Lancer.
I have only gone through Fate and UBW routes though. And watched the anime. The only other time I remember him being GAR was when he stood against Gil to let Shirou and Saber escape even though he knew he couldn't win (and this is FSN route). I'm guessing there are more GARLancer moments in Heaven's Feel?


what i meant was lancer can beat archer easily
anyways in HF his role wasnt that expanded but still he put up a good fight when he was being
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-15-12, 9:52 PM

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BloodRequiem said:
sallym613 said:
BloodRequiem said:
sallym613 said:
BloodRequiem said:
sallym613 said:
Orulyon said:
oh and Archer from FSN is obviously a Gil fan, otherwise he wouldnt wear his hair up and would not replicate thousands of....swords. Seems like a disguised Gil fan to me.


LOL! This totally made my day xD I feel tempted to put this as one of the best sayings/quotes on MAL in my blog (if you don't mind).


Anyhow, no love for FSN Lancer/Cu Chulainn? :/ I also noticed that all F/Z servants get at least one vote.


this is a fate zero thread so obviously fsn servants arent gonna get any love...even though cu chulainn is one of the strongest servants


Except for Archer. And apparently Berserker (Hercules) to some extent...

But yes that's true. Especially since theres a lot of people who watched F/Z that have only watched the so-so FSN and UBW anime adaptation. Lancer didn't get to shine much in either, though slightly more so in UBW movie than in FSN anime.

I actually didn't start liking or caring for Lancer until I went through the UBW route. He's quite GAR in that one.


hes right under hercules in the servant tier
he can beat archer (EMIYA) easily
and seriously UBW was only one example of lancer's GAR that was present in all 3 routes
the guy is the epitome of a heroic spirit


I was actually only responding to this part: "this is a fate zero thread so obviously fsn servants arent gonna get any love" xD So what I meant is that Archer does get some love from fans lol.

But yes I already know that Berserker (Hercules) could beat Archer easily (if there is no plot armor or hax for Archer).

I agree with what you mentioned about Lancer.
I have only gone through Fate and UBW routes though. And watched the anime. The only other time I remember him being GAR was when he stood against Gil to let Shirou and Saber escape even though he knew he couldn't win (and this is FSN route). I'm guessing there are more GARLancer moments in Heaven's Feel?


what i meant was lancer can beat archer easily
anyways in HF his role wasnt that expanded but still he put up a good fight when he was being


Oh. My bad :X
I don't know how I misread that (smh).

Also, I wonder if it's possible for Cu Chulainn to beat Gil. Very small chance with his Gae Bolg?
 
05-15-12, 11:22 PM

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sallym613 said:


Also, I wonder if it's possible for Cu Chulainn to beat Gil. Very small chance with his Gae Bolg?


Almost 0

Gilgamesh has Virmana, which means that he is practically untouchable by melee, and a Luck rating of A, which is more than enough to dodge Gae Bolg (Saber dodged it with a B)
If this wasn't enough, he also has a small resistance to magic, not that Cu Chulainn's runes would be any threat otherwise, but still...

BTW, Gilgamesh also has Gae Bolg... And Cu Chulainn has a Luck rating of E, so he can't dodge it XD...
Modified by Pan151, 05-15-12, 11:27 PM
 
05-16-12, 4:11 AM

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Gilgamesh defeated Cu Chuliann in Fate, as stated.

Though, didn't it take him like 12 hours to do it, though? That's much better than like, everyone else vs Gilgamesh.
 
05-16-12, 7:18 AM

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Pan151 said:
sallym613 said:


Also, I wonder if it's possible for Cu Chulainn to beat Gil. Very small chance with his Gae Bolg?


Almost 0

Gilgamesh has Virmana, which means that he is practically untouchable by melee, and a Luck rating of A, which is more than enough to dodge Gae Bolg (Saber dodged it with a B)
If this wasn't enough, he also has a small resistance to magic, not that Cu Chulainn's runes would be any threat otherwise, but still...

BTW, Gilgamesh also has Gae Bolg... And Cu Chulainn has a Luck rating of E, so he can't dodge it XD...

Gilgamesh can't activate the heart-piercing effect in his version of Gae Bolg, and I'm pretty sure spirit form means that Cu Chulainn can materialize on Vimana if he needs to, like how Diarmuid "teleported" up to Zero Berserker's F-15 jet. Gae Bolg also has the secondary anti-army attack if Cu Chulainn needs to attack from range. So I'd say he has a chance if he acts quick enough with Gae Bolg before Gilgamesh is able to spam either GoB or Ea to its fullest extent.
 
05-16-12, 7:55 AM

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ataraxial said:
Pan151 said:
sallym613 said:


Also, I wonder if it's possible for Cu Chulainn to beat Gil. Very small chance with his Gae Bolg?


Almost 0

Gilgamesh has Virmana, which means that he is practically untouchable by melee, and a Luck rating of A, which is more than enough to dodge Gae Bolg (Saber dodged it with a B)
If this wasn't enough, he also has a small resistance to magic, not that Cu Chulainn's runes would be any threat otherwise, but still...

BTW, Gilgamesh also has Gae Bolg... And Cu Chulainn has a Luck rating of E, so he can't dodge it XD...

Gilgamesh can't activate the heart-piercing effect in his version of Gae Bolg, and I'm pretty sure spirit form means that Cu Chulainn can materialize on Vimana if he needs to, like how Diarmuid "teleported" up to Zero Berserker's F-15 jet. Gae Bolg also has the secondary anti-army attack if Cu Chulainn needs to attack from range. So I'd say he has a chance if he acts quick enough with Gae Bolg before Gilgamesh is able to spam either GoB or Ea to its fullest extent.


enkidu = gg

Gilgamesh defeated Cu Chuliann in Fate, as stated.

Though, didn't it take him like 12 hours to do it, though? That's much better than like, everyone else vs Gilgamesh.


assuming that servants in 1 route dont use "route specific" stuff from other routes
(like how archer doesnt use UBW against berserker)
he prob didnt use enkidu on him
Modified by BloodRequiem, 05-16-12, 7:58 AM
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-16-12, 8:54 AM

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ataraxial said:
Pan151 said:
sallym613 said:


Also, I wonder if it's possible for Cu Chulainn to beat Gil. Very small chance with his Gae Bolg?


Almost 0

Gilgamesh has Virmana, which means that he is practically untouchable by melee, and a Luck rating of A, which is more than enough to dodge Gae Bolg (Saber dodged it with a B)
If this wasn't enough, he also has a small resistance to magic, not that Cu Chulainn's runes would be any threat otherwise, but still...

BTW, Gilgamesh also has Gae Bolg... And Cu Chulainn has a Luck rating of E, so he can't dodge it XD...

Gilgamesh can't activate the heart-piercing effect in his version of Gae Bolg, and I'm pretty sure spirit form means that Cu Chulainn can materialize on Vimana if he needs to, like how Diarmuid "teleported" up to Zero Berserker's F-15 jet. Gae Bolg also has the secondary anti-army attack if Cu Chulainn needs to attack from range. So I'd say he has a chance if he acts quick enough with Gae Bolg before Gilgamesh is able to spam either GoB or Ea to its fullest extent.


Servants can fly in spirit form? I'm pretty sure Lancer can't do anything if Gil is 5000 feet in the air.
 
05-16-12, 9:29 AM

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Ragna92 said:
ataraxial said:
Pan151 said:
sallym613 said:


Also, I wonder if it's possible for Cu Chulainn to beat Gil. Very small chance with his Gae Bolg?


Almost 0

Gilgamesh has Virmana, which means that he is practically untouchable by melee, and a Luck rating of A, which is more than enough to dodge Gae Bolg (Saber dodged it with a B)
If this wasn't enough, he also has a small resistance to magic, not that Cu Chulainn's runes would be any threat otherwise, but still...

BTW, Gilgamesh also has Gae Bolg... And Cu Chulainn has a Luck rating of E, so he can't dodge it XD...

Gilgamesh can't activate the heart-piercing effect in his version of Gae Bolg, and I'm pretty sure spirit form means that Cu Chulainn can materialize on Vimana if he needs to, like how Diarmuid "teleported" up to Zero Berserker's F-15 jet. Gae Bolg also has the secondary anti-army attack if Cu Chulainn needs to attack from range. So I'd say he has a chance if he acts quick enough with Gae Bolg before Gilgamesh is able to spam either GoB or Ea to its fullest extent.


Servants can fly in spirit form? I'm pretty sure Lancer can't do anything if Gil is 5000 feet in the air.

Yep, he could... but then Gil could also go in spirit form and Lancer would find himself dropping from 5000 feet...

Also, @ataraxial, the thrown version of Gae Bolg does not pierce the heart, but rather acts like a storm of homing missiles. I'm pretty sure it can be countered with Gate of Babylon... and also, could you point where it's mentioned that Gil's Gae Bolg doesn't have the same heart-piercing effect? All I know is it just suffers a rank-down due to Gil being only an owner and not a wielder, and in UBW it's still mentioned as a heart-piercing lance in his fight vs Berserker...
 
05-16-12, 10:38 AM

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Pan151 said:
Ragna92 said:
ataraxial said:
Pan151 said:
sallym613 said:


Also, I wonder if it's possible for Cu Chulainn to beat Gil. Very small chance with his Gae Bolg?


Almost 0

Gilgamesh has Virmana, which means that he is practically untouchable by melee, and a Luck rating of A, which is more than enough to dodge Gae Bolg (Saber dodged it with a B)
If this wasn't enough, he also has a small resistance to magic, not that Cu Chulainn's runes would be any threat otherwise, but still...

BTW, Gilgamesh also has Gae Bolg... And Cu Chulainn has a Luck rating of E, so he can't dodge it XD...

Gilgamesh can't activate the heart-piercing effect in his version of Gae Bolg, and I'm pretty sure spirit form means that Cu Chulainn can materialize on Vimana if he needs to, like how Diarmuid "teleported" up to Zero Berserker's F-15 jet. Gae Bolg also has the secondary anti-army attack if Cu Chulainn needs to attack from range. So I'd say he has a chance if he acts quick enough with Gae Bolg before Gilgamesh is able to spam either GoB or Ea to its fullest extent.


Servants can fly in spirit form? I'm pretty sure Lancer can't do anything if Gil is 5000 feet in the air.

Yep, he could... but then Gil could also go in spirit form and Lancer would find himself dropping from 5000 feet...

Also, @ataraxial, the thrown version of Gae Bolg does not pierce the heart, but rather acts like a storm of homing missiles. I'm pretty sure it can be countered with Gate of Babylon... and also, could you point where it's mentioned that Gil's Gae Bolg doesn't have the same heart-piercing effect? All I know is it just suffers a rank-down due to Gil being only an owner and not a wielder, and in UBW it's still mentioned as a heart-piercing lance in his fight vs Berserker...

Yeah, I don't really know how I feel about spirit form since it seems very OP in general. Assuming it works the way I think it does, shouldn't Cu Chulainn be able to then go into spirit form to avoid falling X amount of feet? Perhaps the the amount of prana required makes it unwieldly to spam which is why we don't see it used in combat particularly often.

Anyways, yeah, the thrown version doesn't have the heart-piercing effect, but I was just pointing out that he can has a very powerful ranged attack as well. As for Gilgamesh's version of Gae Bolg, I'm not going to bother digging it up since it was definitely discussed at some point in this thread. Basically, Gil can't activate special modes of attack that are specific to other Heroic Spirits' Noble Phantasms, although passive abilities like those on his versions of Gae Dearg and Gae Buidhe would still be in effect.

But if Gil were serious and had no route-specifics issues, Enkidu would stop Cu Chulainn without much effort like BR said since his divinity is ranked at B.
 
05-16-12, 3:21 PM

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Gil's version is not gae bolg
its gungnir and doesnt have the heart piercing effects
"a spear to pierce the heart" merely meant that he used to spear to pierce berserker's heart
not that it had the effect

all servants can turn into spirit form at will except for saber
so dropping from 5000 feet doesnt do anything
in fact spirit form isnt even a factor in servant to servant battles
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-16-12, 3:31 PM

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^Gae Bolg is Cu Chulainn's signature weapon and as such all of it's special properties are specific to Cu Chulainn. Gil has a strong prototype that doesn't has the same properties since all the heart piercing and such legends are linked to Lancer's version. Fate/Stay Night's Visual Novel repeated this fact several times, specially in UBW route. Basically it's like this: Gilgamesh owns all the prototypes...he even has an early version of what was later to become Caliburn but it's not Caliburn, it's Gram, the legendary sword wielded by Sigurd in the Norse Legends.

Let's not even get into the fact Gilgamesh doesn't even truly know how to use most of his treasures. He was a collector but he doesn't posess the martial skill to use every single weapon he owned. His trademark weapons that he can command to perfection are Enkidu and Ea.
Modified by Leon-Gun, 05-16-12, 3:36 PM

 
05-16-12, 5:44 PM

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Pan151 said:
Ragna92 said:

Servants can fly in spirit form? I'm pretty sure Lancer can't do anything if Gil is 5000 feet in the air.

Yep, he could... but then Gil could also go in spirit form and Lancer would find himself dropping from 5000 feet...


Lol when I read this, this is the first thing I imagined:
A Carnival Phantasm episode where that sort of situation happens and Lancer tries to convert back to spirit form, but Seihai-kun uses its mystical powers to prevent that from happening just so that it can see Lancer die instead.

That would be quite hilarious to watch ^ but I would feel so bad for Lancer xD; (Being Lancer is suffering...)


Speaking of spirit form, what exactly happens though? I know the servants turn invisible, but how does that give them the ability to appear again anywhere they want? Do they turn into particles that can float or fly anywhere?

I didn't think too much about it until the episode when Lancer Zero went into spirit form and somehow reappeared on Berserker Zero's jet. That got me really confused. Funny how I didn't wonder about it when I first read it in LN.
 
05-16-12, 7:41 PM

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Not quoting the post because lazy but yeah, I'm just going to assume that in their battle in Fate that either Gilgamesh didn't want to use Enkidu or Cu Chuliann's Protection From Projectiles skill saved him from Enkidu (and also let him last against Gate of Babylon).

Also spirit form dematerializes the Servant's physical body into mana or something, doesn't it? Presumably, they can move faster in that form.
 
05-16-12, 7:53 PM

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TheRealBoyd said:
Not quoting the post because lazy but yeah, I'm just going to assume that in their battle in Fate that either Gilgamesh didn't want to use Enkidu or Cu Chuliann's Protection From Projectiles skill saved him from Enkidu (and also let him last against Gate of Babylon).

Also spirit form dematerializes the Servant's physical body into mana or something, doesn't it? Presumably, they can move faster in that form.


he prob didnt use enkidu
lancer's projectile protection doesnt work against stuff he doesnt see and enkidu is said to come out of nowhere and bind even the space itself
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-17-12, 4:38 AM

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sallym613 said:
Lol when I read this, this is the first thing I imagined:
A Carnival Phantasm episode where that sort of situation happens and Lancer tries to convert back to spirit form, but Seihai-kun uses its mystical powers to prevent that from happening just so that it can see Lancer die instead.

That would be quite hilarious to watch ^ but I would feel so bad for Lancer xD; (Being Lancer is suffering...)


Speaking of spirit form, what exactly happens though? I know the servants turn invisible, but how does that give them the ability to appear again anywhere they want? Do they turn into particles that can float or fly anywhere?

I didn't think too much about it until the episode when Lancer Zero went into spirit form and somehow reappeared on Berserker Zero's jet. That got me really confused. Funny how I didn't wonder about it when I first read it in LN.

That would be pretty funny with Lancer, although I doubt that Seihai-kun would do that much. All that he ever does is magically materialize knives out of nowhere and let them fall onto the floor. Maybe what could happen is that some bizarre turn of events causes Kirei and Shirou to switch their command spells so that Lancer is unable to go into spirit form. After all, Shirou wouldn't know how to do it after being Saber's master and being useless as a magus to boot.
 
05-17-12, 3:00 PM

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ataraxial said:
sallym613 said:
Lol when I read this, this is the first thing I imagined:
A Carnival Phantasm episode where that sort of situation happens and Lancer tries to convert back to spirit form, but Seihai-kun uses its mystical powers to prevent that from happening just so that it can see Lancer die instead.

That would be quite hilarious to watch ^ but I would feel so bad for Lancer xD; (Being Lancer is suffering...)


Speaking of spirit form, what exactly happens though? I know the servants turn invisible, but how does that give them the ability to appear again anywhere they want? Do they turn into particles that can float or fly anywhere?

I didn't think too much about it until the episode when Lancer Zero went into spirit form and somehow reappeared on Berserker Zero's jet. That got me really confused. Funny how I didn't wonder about it when I first read it in LN.

That would be pretty funny with Lancer, although I doubt that Seihai-kun would do that much. All that he ever does is magically materialize knives out of nowhere and let them fall onto the floor. Maybe what could happen is that some bizarre turn of events causes Kirei and Shirou to switch their command spells so that Lancer is unable to go into spirit form. After all, Shirou wouldn't know how to do it after being Saber's master and being useless as a magus to boot.


It's not actually Shirou's fault that Saber cannot goes back to a spirit form. Saber is an incomplete Heroic Spirit (being a copy of someone who is still alive due to a pact make with the World), therefore cannot turn into a spirit form.
 
05-17-12, 3:46 PM

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Veldril said:
ataraxial said:
sallym613 said:
Lol when I read this, this is the first thing I imagined:
A Carnival Phantasm episode where that sort of situation happens and Lancer tries to convert back to spirit form, but Seihai-kun uses its mystical powers to prevent that from happening just so that it can see Lancer die instead.

That would be quite hilarious to watch ^ but I would feel so bad for Lancer xD; (Being Lancer is suffering...)


Speaking of spirit form, what exactly happens though? I know the servants turn invisible, but how does that give them the ability to appear again anywhere they want? Do they turn into particles that can float or fly anywhere?

I didn't think too much about it until the episode when Lancer Zero went into spirit form and somehow reappeared on Berserker Zero's jet. That got me really confused. Funny how I didn't wonder about it when I first read it in LN.

That would be pretty funny with Lancer, although I doubt that Seihai-kun would do that much. All that he ever does is magically materialize knives out of nowhere and let them fall onto the floor. Maybe what could happen is that some bizarre turn of events causes Kirei and Shirou to switch their command spells so that Lancer is unable to go into spirit form. After all, Shirou wouldn't know how to do it after being Saber's master and being useless as a magus to boot.


It's not actually Shirou's fault that Saber cannot goes back to a spirit form. Saber is an incomplete Heroic Spirit (being a copy of someone who is still alive due to a pact make with the World), therefore cannot turn into a spirit form.

Yes, I am aware of that.
 
05-17-12, 8:29 PM

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Well, if Lancer doesn't get hit by Enkidu, he could theoretically start off with Gae Bolg and finish it right there. Saber did survive it, but she also had instinct and was injured in the end. As far as I'm concerned if Lancer wasn't held back by the plot he could go around soloing most the servants with Gae Bolg (except Berserker, and Gilgamesh if Gilgamesh is serious / has the jump)

Gae Bolg has such a broken concept.
 
05-17-12, 10:05 PM

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LostHanyou said:
Well, if Lancer doesn't get hit by Enkidu, he could theoretically start off with Gae Bolg and finish it right there. Saber did survive it, but she also had instinct and was injured in the end. As far as I'm concerned if Lancer wasn't held back by the plot he could go around soloing most the servants with Gae Bolg (except Berserker, and Gilgamesh if Gilgamesh is serious / has the jump)

Gae Bolg has such a broken concept.
It has a broken concept but it has limitations. An interesting one is the fact that it does has a range limit so long range fighters can easily dance away out of Lancer's range. This may have been part of the reason he uses the Anti-Army attack against Archer rather than the regular Gae Bolg. Also, the reverse causality only kicks in after Lancer activates the spear but it can be stopped while the mana is still being gathered. This is actually not a terrible drawback since it's a an almost 100% kill attack so the enemy is not expected to know it's coming as he has never faced it. It only ever became a problem because of his "fight all Servants to a draw" Command Spell.

Then there's the limitation of rank of Gae Bolg itself. Gae Bolg is actually a mere Rank B lance which is ussually not important when it comes to his instant-kill effect except when he faces enemies like Heracles who has the ability to neutralize anything below Rank A, which basically gives Lancer no chance of defeating Heracles. Although it's not like many people had any chance of defeating Heracles outside of those with access to EX armament and unlimited weaponry.

 
05-20-12, 1:31 AM

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http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2012-05-20/mynavi-poll/strongest-fate/zero-master-and-servant

What a bullshit ranking. Might as well call it "Who are the most popular Masters and Servants?"
 
05-20-12, 2:09 AM

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stAtic91 said:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2012-05-20/mynavi-poll/strongest-fate/zero-master-and-servant

What a bullshit ranking. Might as well call it "Who are the most popular Masters and Servants?"


Who vote in this?it looks more like "servants you would like to sleep with" poll
Please take a moment to fill this anime questionnaire.
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05-20-12, 2:45 AM

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ssjokg said:
stAtic91 said:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2012-05-20/mynavi-poll/strongest-fate/zero-master-and-servant

What a bullshit ranking. Might as well call it "Who are the most popular Masters and Servants?"


Who vote in this?it looks more like "servants you would like to sleep with" poll


thats the problem with polls
retarded people who dont know shit voting for their favourite characters

and emiya kiritsugu strongest master lmfao
kayneth is best in terms of magecraft
kirei beats the rest in physical capabilities

meh im not surprised its ANN
bunch of wankers

and im going to assume 18.2% voting for assassins are trolls
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
05-20-12, 6:41 AM

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BloodRequiem said:
ssjokg said:
stAtic91 said:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2012-05-20/mynavi-poll/strongest-fate/zero-master-and-servant

What a bullshit ranking. Might as well call it "Who are the most popular Masters and Servants?"


Who vote in this?it looks more like "servants you would like to sleep with" poll


thats the problem with polls
retarded people who dont know shit voting for their favourite characters

and emiya kiritsugu strongest master lmfao
kayneth is best in terms of magecraft
kirei beats the rest in physical capabilities

meh im not surprised its ANN
bunch of wankers

and im going to assume 18.2% voting for assassins are trolls

I want to believe that they are trolls, but Hanlon's Razor states that you should:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
So yeah. It's more likely they're just retards.

Thinking that Kiritsugu is the strongest master actually makes sense for when the poll was taken (episode 15), it's not clear how strong Kirei is, and Kerry completely owned the shit out of Team Lancer and especially Kayneth. I agree that Kayneth is the best in magecraft and everything, but that alone doesn't make him necessary better as a master than Kerry.
 
05-20-12, 7:23 AM

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Gilgamesh. Because Fate/side material said that if he ever manages to put aside his overwhelming pride and go all-out, nobody can defeat him.
 
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