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Feb 15, 2014 5:43 PM
#382
Mar 4, 2014 6:38 PM
#383
Iszumi said: Finally Ryuunosuke gets what he deserves. What a sick M.F. Hopefully Castor's next. AWESOME EPISODE!! I feel like I'm the only one who actually like Ryuunosuke/caster pair. They were sick twisted and evil but they made for great characters. + they are less assholes than kotomine and kiritsiguru |
Mar 5, 2014 1:07 AM
#384
Celestrial2 said: Great chars yes. Less assholes no way in hell.Iszumi said: Finally Ryuunosuke gets what he deserves. What a sick M.F. Hopefully Castor's next. AWESOME EPISODE!! I feel like I'm the only one who actually like Ryuunosuke/caster pair. They were sick twisted and evil but they made for great characters. + they are less assholes than kotomine and kiritsiguru |
Mar 5, 2014 11:42 PM
#385
Great way to pick back up from the first part. Ryuunosuke's death left me in a strange mix of wanting to feel for the guy and laughing. At least he died happy and stayed true to his insanity to the end. At first I thought the Berserker was there to help out, but as soon as he took that plane towards Gilgamesh it was on. I really want to see more of Berserker + Emiya. |
Mar 8, 2014 6:54 PM
#386
that Gilgamesh vs. Berserker dogfight was on some Ace Combat level shit yo |
Mar 18, 2014 2:59 AM
#387
i like how the opening has lyrics that are almost a direct quote of how kiritsugu's ideals are described in fate/stay night http://puu.sh/7zUey.jpg and the ending has a line about short lives while irisviel is onscreen lol http://puu.sh/7zUbu.jpg it's a little hard to take this anime seriously when half the cast is fighting a giant lovecraftian sea monster while a dude screams about how cool it is and a big guy in black armor commandeers a fighter jet to fight a golden airship nearby this anime's supposed to be dark and mature? try over the top. fate/stay night was quite a bit more grounded (literally) than this, and i'd say it's better for it. unless you're in the mood for something over the top, and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that. it's certainly a bit early to make any final judgments though. edit: come to think of it, maybe i should take fate/stay night being grounded back. after all we did get saber running up the side of a very tall building. that was pretty ridiculous. not sure it matches this episode, though, or kiritsugu's building demolition. |
MaxVdubMar 18, 2014 3:06 AM
Mar 18, 2014 10:12 AM
#388
MaxVdub said: it's a little hard to take this anime seriously when half the cast is fighting a giant lovecraftian sea monster while a dude screams about how cool it is and a big guy in black armor commandeers a fighter jet to fight a golden airship nearby I dont see any of this cant be taken seriously. Caster's monster isnt the first monster to appear in Type moon's works.Most of the Types in Notes are "worse". Ryunusoke was always crazy, while Berserker can use anything he considers a weapon.And Gilgamesh's airship is straight out of legends. |
Mar 18, 2014 10:59 AM
#389
Forgetfulness said: Isn't over the top more like when something incredibly ridiculous is pulled out? Something like Kill la Kill? ._. I think a lot of those events you mentioned are certainly possible and well within realistic bounds in the Nasuverse. Perhaps we have different ideas of "over the top", but I'm thinking more along the lines of Kill la Kill such as swinging a blade and some building in the distance is sliced in two. Kiritsugu blowing one up with explosives for a good reason (remember all the traps Kayneth described?), not so much :| Eh, I think you may or may not change your mind in eps 18/19. Maybe... what is ridiculous is pretty subjective. yes, kill la kill is quite over the top. it also sets that tone for itself very early on (i.e. the very first episode). whereas i've had it drilled into me for a while now that f/z a Mature anime for Adults, supposedly. also, i came into this expecting kiritsugu to use modern weapons. berserker taking control of a jet was a bit unexpected. and yea, i consider that pretty over the top. it's something i'd expect to see in a michael bay movie, not a show about wizards duking it out. ssjokg said: I dont see any of this cant be taken seriously. Caster's monster isnt the first monster to appear in Type moon's works.Most of the Types in Notes are "worse". Ryunusoke was always crazy, while Berserker can use anything he considers a weapon.And Gilgamesh's airship is straight out of legends. only type-moon work i've experienced before this was fate/stay night. ryuunosuke and caster were very hard to take seriously after the initial shock of seeing crucified kids wore off. they ham their roles up considerably to the point where it doesn't seem like the director wanted you to take them seriously. |
Mar 18, 2014 12:52 PM
#390
ssjokg said: MaxVdub said: it's a little hard to take this anime seriously when half the cast is fighting a giant lovecraftian sea monster while a dude screams about how cool it is and a big guy in black armor commandeers a fighter jet to fight a golden airship nearby I dont see any of this cant be taken seriously. Caster's monster isnt the first monster to appear in Type moon's works.Most of the Types in Notes are "worse". Ryunusoke was always crazy, while Berserker can use anything he considers a weapon.And Gilgamesh's airship is straight out of legends. Let's not forget that we have true magic users that could explode a continent with a yawn and a dude who can split the world in half with his sword in Notes. And they barely are able to put a dent into Types. Or Saber Nero of "LOLICANHAVEANYPOWERIWANTBECAUSEMYEGOPIERCESHEAVENS" fame. Then we have Arcueid "I can manipulate reality and will always be stronger than my enemies" Brunestud. Not to mention CIEL who lols at death. or LOLSHIKI(knk one) MaxVdub said: Forgetfulness said: Isn't over the top more like when something incredibly ridiculous is pulled out? Something like Kill la Kill? ._. I think a lot of those events you mentioned are certainly possible and well within realistic bounds in the Nasuverse. Perhaps we have different ideas of "over the top", but I'm thinking more along the lines of Kill la Kill such as swinging a blade and some building in the distance is sliced in two. Kiritsugu blowing one up with explosives for a good reason (remember all the traps Kayneth described?), not so much :| Eh, I think you may or may not change your mind in eps 18/19. Maybe... what is ridiculous is pretty subjective. yes, kill la kill is quite over the top. it also sets that tone for itself very early on (i.e. the very first episode). whereas i've had it drilled into me for a while now that f/z a Mature anime for Adults, supposedly. also, i came into this expecting kiritsugu to use modern weapons. berserker taking control of a jet was a bit unexpected. and yea, i consider that pretty over the top. it's something i'd expect to see in a michael bay movie, not a show about wizards duking it out. ssjokg said: I dont see any of this cant be taken seriously. Caster's monster isnt the first monster to appear in Type moon's works.Most of the Types in Notes are "worse". Ryunusoke was always crazy, while Berserker can use anything he considers a weapon.And Gilgamesh's airship is straight out of legends. only type-moon work i've experienced before this was fate/stay night. ryuunosuke and caster were very hard to take seriously after the initial shock of seeing crucified kids wore off. they ham their roles up considerably to the point where it doesn't seem like the director wanted you to take them seriously. You mean the same FSN where Sakura, wielding infinite mana pool summons a gazillion of servant-level alive shadows and Rin uses excaliblast-like attacks powered by parallel realities? Using the sword designed by the guy who once killed the moon with a freaking laser cannon? The same FSN that has Bazett and Lancer first of which can move after being skewered by GOB, punch servants into a wall and reverse the order of her and her enemies attacks and the latter of which can just fuck with causality and still stab you with his spear even if he never attacked in the first place Its still fantasy genre. |
AhenshihaelMar 18, 2014 12:55 PM
Mar 18, 2014 1:11 PM
#391
i can accept sakura's power because it's slowly built up to over the course of heaven's feel. it's also pretty much the climax of a 100+ hour visual novel. it's not something that comes at you in the middle out of nowhere. it's also, well, purely magical. it's what i'd expect from a visual novel about wizards duking it out. if sakura instead used her powers to, let's say, take over the pentagon and threaten the world with nukes unless they agreed to be nice to her i would be considerably less accepting. this is because from the beginning fate/stay night is set up as a VN about magic, not michael baysplosions. haven't read ataraxia so i can't comment on anything that happens in that. |
Mar 18, 2014 1:25 PM
#392
Celestrial2 said: Iszumi said: Finally Ryuunosuke gets what he deserves. What a sick M.F. Hopefully Castor's next. AWESOME EPISODE!! I feel like I'm the only one who actually like Ryuunosuke/caster pair. They were sick twisted and evil but they made for great characters. + they are less assholes than kotomine and kiritsiguru but like, kirei goes around killing everybody for fun on a much larger scale than ryuunosuke |
Mar 18, 2014 1:28 PM
#393
MaxVdub said: i can accept sakura's power because it's slowly built up to over the course of heaven's feel. it's also pretty much the climax of a 100+ hour visual novel. it's not something that comes at you in the middle out of nowhere. it's also, well, purely magical. it's what i'd expect from a visual novel about wizards duking it out. if sakura instead used her powers to, let's say, take over the pentagon and threaten the world with nukes unless they agreed to be nice to her i would be considerably less accepting. this is because from the beginning fate/stay night is set up as a VN about magic, not michael baysplosions. haven't read ataraxia so i can't comment on anything that happens in that. YEah but lets see what you say is over the top in FZ and its foreshadowing. Caster's monster.Caster had been using Cthulhu lang since ep2 and all of his monsters were "out of this world". Gil and Berserker already explained above. Kiritusgu's hotel demolition.That was Kiritsugu using modern weaponry.Also in the fight with Kayneth,in Ryunosoke's death and later on. Magi fighting.Kayneth already did it.Waver and Kariya are failures at it since the beginning and Kirei with Tokiomi wont do anything until tome comes(as you know from FSN). I am not sure where the Adults part came from since most adults would even read the novel if they didnt know FSN. And even if it is, it still is about magic.Taking over a jet by standing on it ,simply because you were the best during your era, is magic just like having a sword that can destroy the planet. Also Michael bays movies are generally bad because there is more focus on explosions and US army fighting than in the MCs(Transformers) and the story.Not something that can be said about FZ. Celestrial2 said: Celestrial2 said: Iszumi said: Finally Ryuunosuke gets what he deserves. What a sick M.F. Hopefully Castor's next. AWESOME EPISODE!! I feel like I'm the only one who actually like Ryuunosuke/caster pair. They were sick twisted and evil but they made for great characters. + they are less assholes than kotomine and kiritsiguru but like, kirei goes around killing everybody for fun on a much larger scale than ryuunosuke Eh no.Kirei also uses their deaths or ruin.He doesnt simply look at others die or lead to despair just because it was fun. ALso Kirei knows that this isnt right.Ryunosuke thinks he does a favor to God. |
ssjokgMar 18, 2014 1:32 PM
Apr 13, 2014 11:10 PM
#394
Ryuunosuke was pretty likeable. The fact that he's twisted made him more entertaining to watch. Anyway, gorgeous animations especially that aerial battle. |
My DeviantArt and Pixiv and still waiting patiently for a 3rd season of Spice & Wolf :'| |
Apr 19, 2014 10:47 PM
#395
Ok so let me get this straight, he never had to kill hundreds of children and likely adults in the first place, he just needed to see his own blood? Like he just had to emo cut or commit suicide in the beginning and he could of avoided all that killing? Man those kids must be REALLY pissed now. But like has he never cut himself with a knife or can or something on accident to figure that out? Never? So it was just a huge coincidence? |
Apr 19, 2014 11:23 PM
#396
Zombiespire said: I dont think he ever got a wound serious enough to bleed to death and feel he own guts.Ok so let me get this straight, he never had to kill hundreds of children and likely adults in the first place, he just needed to see his own blood? Like he just had to emo cut or commit suicide in the beginning and he could of avoided all that killing? Man those kids must be REALLY pissed now. But like has he never cut himself with a knife or can or something on accident to figure that out? Never? So it was just a huge coincidence? |
May 3, 2014 1:10 PM
#398
Airveen said: I still dont understand why he was happy dying. I still don't understand why he found the killing of women and children entertaining. |
May 3, 2014 3:01 PM
#399
HeisenDurden said: Airveen said: I still dont understand why he was happy dying. I still don't understand why he found the killing of women and children entertaining. Why do you want to understand the mind of a psycho serial killer? |
May 4, 2014 5:11 AM
#400
ssjokg said: HeisenDurden said: Airveen said: I still dont understand why he was happy dying. I still don't understand why he found the killing of women and children entertaining. Why do you want to understand the mind of a psycho serial killer? I was pointing out what you just said. Understanding psychopaths is pointless. |
HeisenMay 4, 2014 5:44 AM
May 8, 2014 12:12 AM
#401
1. That plane got devoured like a Venus flytrap capturing a bug 2. Those fight scenes were pretty good. Ryuunosuke got what he deserves 7/10 |
俺の命を百合に。 Currently translating Sono Hanabira ni Kuchizuke o - Atelier no Koibito-tachi -- when bored. Above visual novel is 22.22% translated with progress uploaded to youtube; if you're into yuri VNs, check out my channel. |
May 23, 2014 7:23 AM
#402
Sweet! The new OP has my motorcycle in it (Yamaha V-Max). |
May 23, 2014 10:34 PM
#403
jet+giant monster=not good results.The real question is what kind of father would abandon his daughter the answer is not a very good one.Im sure sakura would have still been happy if she could stay with her actual family. since this is a prequel I know this prick will die and I cant wait to clap for that moment.YES! Ryuunosuke is dead wish he would have suffered more. |
souledge94May 23, 2014 10:40 PM
May 23, 2014 10:36 PM
#404
HeisenDurden said: Airveen said: I still dont understand why he was happy dying. I still don't understand why he found the killing of women and children entertaining. cause hes freaking crazy.Thats the answer. some people just have a screw loose. |
May 24, 2014 1:29 AM
#405
souledge94 said: jet+giant monster=not good results.The real question is what kind of father would abandon his daughter the answer is not a very good one.Im sure sakura would have still been happy if she could stay with her actual family. since this is a prequel I know this prick will die and I cant wait to clap for that moment. A topic that will never get old. Tokiomi had his reasons and did what he thought was the best for his child, as in his opinion, there was no other way. No one says his reasons were really legitimate reasons to give Sakura away and in hindsight it was a really stupid move, but based on what he knew about the magi's ethics and Sakura's hidden talents (something the anime leaves out, but it's partially explained in the novel), it was not an incomprehensible one. There were other options, but if Zouken was actually a nice guy and Sakura got the education Tokiomi hoped she would get, it would have possibly been the best one for her. In his opinion. |
May 24, 2014 1:40 AM
#406
Well, in his opinion, even if Rin and Sakura try and kill each other in the future for some magi goal, especially the Tohsaka's goal, then everything is fine since that is the best the family could get because even though Sakura has the Matou name she still has Tohsaka blood. I think what we should hate on, is the very generic way of life magi have, not individuals since we get stuck on the "that's how they are".That doesnt really justify the treatment Sakura and others get. |
May 24, 2014 1:48 AM
#407
ssjokg said: I think what we should hate on, is the very generic way of life magi have, not individuals since we get stuck on the "that's how they are".That doesnt really justify the treatment Sakura and others get. Or the fact that he was retarded enough to gave his daughter to Zouken out of all people. |
May 24, 2014 2:13 AM
#408
HeisenDurden said: ssjokg said: I think what we should hate on, is the very generic way of life magi have, not individuals since we get stuck on the "that's how they are".That doesnt really justify the treatment Sakura and others get. Or the fact that he was retarded enough to gave his daughter to Zouken out of all people. Well his thoughts on the potential fight to the death they may have in the future shows that even without giving her to Zouken, he would still be a shitty father by normal standards. |
May 24, 2014 2:25 AM
#409
souledge94 said: The real question is what kind of father would abandon his daughter the answer is not a very good one.Im sure sakura would have still been happy if she could stay with her actual family. since this is a prequel I know this prick will die and I cant wait to clap for that moment.YES! Ryuunosuke is dead wish he would have suffered more. That happiness would depend on her survival. In tokiomi's eyes, for a family that relies solely on their recognition to not get dissected, giving Sakura " a chance" at Matou household seemed more productive. Of course it was not a good choice because WE know more than he does. But at least in all possible futures both of them remain alive this way. ssjokg said: Well, in his opinion, even if Rin and Sakura try and kill each other in the future for some magi goal, especially the Tohsaka's goal, then everything is fine since that is the best the family could get because even though Sakura has the Matou name she still has Tohsaka blood. I think what we should hate on, is the very generic way of life magi have, not individuals since we get stuck on the "that's how they are".That doesnt really justify the treatment Sakura and others get. Which is generally how magi world works. Being rivals on even grounds trying to kill each other > One not even getting that and getting dissected somewhere. In his mind this gives them equal chances at making it. Awful in human society standards? Sure. Noble in Magus standards? Yep. HeisenDurden said: ssjokg said: I think what we should hate on, is the very generic way of life magi have, not individuals since we get stuck on the "that's how they are".That doesnt really justify the treatment Sakura and others get. Or the fact that he was retarded enough to gave his daughter to Zouken out of all people. Its canon that he did not know though. |
May 24, 2014 2:47 AM
#410
ssjokg said: HeisenDurden said: ssjokg said: I think what we should hate on, is the very generic way of life magi have, not individuals since we get stuck on the "that's how they are".That doesnt really justify the treatment Sakura and others get. Or the fact that he was retarded enough to gave his daughter to Zouken out of all people. Well his thoughts on the potential fight to the death they may have in the future shows that even without giving her to Zouken, he would still be a shitty father by normal standards. We all know he sucks as a parent and father. Strange that I felt something similar when I played FSN for the first time 4-5 years ago and the way Rin acted around Sakura. Like Tokiomi, she has reasons for the way she acts, though they aren't really good reasons... Well, she doesn't really try to be a perfect magus like her father, so the Tohsakas' kindness is not lost on her thankfully. When I read FZ afterwards, I couldn't help but think that Urobuchi intended to do something similar with Tokiomi, but in a more villainous way. Fate/Zero material apparently confirmed this. His decision to give Sakura was perhaps in his mind a good move for Sakura, but it would be foolish to ignore that he also thought about the glory his family would gain, with his two talented daughters or their descendants eventually fighting against each other and eventually reaching the Root. Sakura and Rin are not Touko and Aoko. I just think most magi with their traditions and values are supposed to show extreme sides of mankind. Seeking knowledge or looking down on "inferior" beings is hardly something new; morals, laws and rights also differ from society to society and country to country. I imagine most magi don't see themselves as humans, though. I felt vindicated when in Kara no Kyoukai Shiki once asked Touko "Are you human?" and Touko only answered "I'm a magus." Fai said: Its canon that he did not know though. Still makes him retarted, because he gave her away without second thoughts and what happened to her afterwards never bothered him again. |
CapsuleCoreMay 24, 2014 2:54 AM
May 24, 2014 2:50 AM
#411
You know very well that you make the Association seem way worse than they already are. As I said before they would need a SERIOUS REASON to take Sakura even if they wanted her. If they are as you say they are, Rin isnt really safe either, since no magi of the western world will really care about the fuss those savage monkeys will make, if the successor is kidnapped. It's canon that he never cared to know though. |
May 24, 2014 2:54 AM
#412
ssjokg said: You know very well that you make the Association seem way worse than they already are. As I said before they would need a SERIOUS REASON to take Sakura even if they wanted her. If they are as you say they are, Rin isnt really safe either, since no magi of the western world will really care about the fuss those savage monkeys will make, if the successor is kidnapped. It's canon that he never cared to know though. I am not just talking about association doing it. Rin is only safe for her status, exactly. (and as shown in FSN that's not evne enough and you need someone like Zelretch). |
May 24, 2014 3:02 AM
#413
Fai said: There are two big factions that everyone fears, the MA and the Church. And they need a reason to act.I am not just talking about association doing it. Everyone else would try some nasty shit either way whether Sakura was with the Matou or Tohsaka. It would be the job of her guardians to protect her if they even wanted to. The really bad MA you keep talking about wouldnt do anything to help them seriously. Fai said: Rin is only safe for her status, exactly. (and as shown in FSN that's not evne enough and you need someone like Zelretch). Then she isnt safe because of her status. They just wait for her to do some "mistake" like in HF |
ssjokgMay 24, 2014 3:32 AM
May 24, 2014 4:27 AM
#414
Fai said: Its canon that he did not know though. I know that, but that's still no excuse. Zouken himself volunteered to adopt Sakura. Didn't he find it a bit suspicious, or to good to be true? Plus even he should have known that Zouken isn't the most trustworthy fellow. |
May 24, 2014 5:28 AM
#415
HeisenDurden said: Fai said: Its canon that he did not know though. I know that, but that's still no excuse. Zouken himself volunteered to adopt Sakura. Didn't he find it a bit suspicious, or to good to be true? Plus even he should have known that Zouken isn't the most trustworthy fellow. Why would he find it suspicious? The Matou family is in ruin and need to get a good mage. It's expected that they look for one, and Zouken's request is completely understandable from Tokiomi's point of view. Also Zouken NEEDS Sakura to become a strong mage, even if Tokiomi finds him untrustworthy he still expects Zouken to make full use of Sakura's potential, which is also exactly what Tokiomi wants. |
May 24, 2014 6:19 AM
#416
Botato said: HeisenDurden said: Fai said: Its canon that he did not know though. I know that, but that's still no excuse. Zouken himself volunteered to adopt Sakura. Didn't he find it a bit suspicious, or to good to be true? Plus even he should have known that Zouken isn't the most trustworthy fellow. Why would he find it suspicious? The Matou family is in ruin and need to get a good mage. I forgot about that, you're right. I know it sounds like I'm nitpicking, but given how everyone refers to Zouken as a vampire/rotten old man with a shady past, I just still find Tokiomi's decision retarded. |
May 24, 2014 6:29 AM
#417
ssjokg said: There are two big factions that everyone fears, the MA and the Church. And they need a reason to act. Everyone else would try some nasty shit either way whether Sakura was with the Matou or Tohsaka. It would be the job of her guardians to protect her if they even wanted to. The really bad MA you keep talking about wouldnt do anything to help them seriously. Correction. Three factions. Church Dead Apostles Clocktower That's not counting the wildcard like rogue magi, rogue DAs, phantasmal beasts, counterforce, inside factions in the above factions(Altrouge's clique in DA's having their own plans beyond DA fascination with Dark Six, the factions of Clocktower, etc) or the true hidden factions, let's not forget the "Freelancer figures" too like Arcueid, who give no fucks to power balance of the world. Tokiomi knew that the ONLY way to get association to help them if problem occurs is to incur on their heritage and name. We are talking about the family who converted to christianity just to not get fucked over by church - selling your child to another family to ensure their survival is right within bounds of their actions. The difference that separates Tohsaka family from monsters like Matous or Einzberns is self-awareness - they do not just set off to change laws of universe - they know what size they actually are and just how easily forces can crush them. Out of Three Great Families, Tohsaka family is the only one with actual somewhat "human perspective" in themselves. Its why Zelretch sees Rin as worthy - he sees a chance that unlike Zouken or Einzebern family members, even when discovering such power that Rin did, Rin still would be herself. That's what intrigues him and amuses him. To see how far someone like that - someone who has both talent AND humanity, can go. Then she isnt safe because of her status. They just wait for her to do some "mistake" like in HF She is Safe-er. Note that WHO she is still ends up saving her. If not for her legacy and her name, she would be in a jar. HeisenDurden said: Botato said: HeisenDurden said: Fai said: Its canon that he did not know though. I know that, but that's still no excuse. Zouken himself volunteered to adopt Sakura. Didn't he find it a bit suspicious, or to good to be true? Plus even he should have known that Zouken isn't the most trustworthy fellow. Why would he find it suspicious? The Matou family is in ruin and need to get a good mage. I forgot about that, you're right. I know it sounds like I'm nitpicking, but given how everyone refers to Zouken as a vampire/rotten old man with a shady past, I just still find Tokiomi's decision retarded. Because it is still the only real choice Tokiomi has. If he knew the truth he would look for alternatives because they would not seem worse then. |
May 24, 2014 7:09 AM
#418
The Dead Apostles and anything that isnt a part of the Church or Association doesnt matter. We are talking about the Church or the Association taking someone by force. The factions of the Clocktower are still part of the MA and even if they act in secret, it just means that the status of a monkey isnt something that will stop them. Tokiomi could have chose ANOTHER family. NOT an infamous magus just because the guy(Zouken) was desperate. If the survival is just so they can reach goals and having reputation and not actually have a life then it isnt any different from what the MA would do. And if he cared that much, the least he could have done is check on her. There was no logical reason to make a deal of "having no business with her" after she is taken. Tokiomi DOESNT know how easily forces can crush them/him. It was pretty clear in the war. The Tohsaka name has nothing to do with Rin having humanity. Just like the fact that in the end, having a name and inheritance does not protect them at all, if things are as you say they are, and we have the demon hunting families, one of them having at least one person being able to wound a Servant like monster, to prove that it ISNT like you say. |
May 24, 2014 7:56 AM
#419
ssjokg said: The Dead Apostles and anything that isnt a part of the Church or Association doesnt matter. Yes they do. Church, DAAs and MA are locked in three way conflict. Where one side moves, the other two do too to protect their interests. The 27 Dead Apostle Ancestors are not just "classification", its an actual faction, with a common goal(Dark Six). Sure some of them play for the other team(Zelretch) and some have their own interests(Altrouge's faction giving no fucks about Dark Six and focusing on Crimson Moon), but that changes nothing The only reason either of three factions did NOT assure the global domination and destroy the other two, is mutually assured destruction - all three sides have enough Haxx to wipe the planet. You can't just "Exclude" one of them. If the balance is broken, dystopia can ensues(see: Fate/Extra, Fate/Kaleid Liner PRisma Illya, Notes, Apocrypha, the FSN future civil war) We are talking about the Church or the Association taking someone by force. No we are not. The factions of the Clocktower are still part of the MA and even if they act in secret, it just means that the status of a monkey isnt something that will stop them. But status of Head of Tohsaka Family is something that would make the rest more inclined to interfere Tokiomi could have chose ANOTHER family. NOT an infamous magus just because the guy(Zouken) was desperate. If the survival is just so they can reach goals and having reputation and not actually have a life then it isnt any different from what the MA would do. And if he cared that much, the least he could have done is check on her. There was no logical reason to make a deal of "having no business with her" after she is taken. He could. Without info about Zouken's true goals other options were worse. There was a logical reason for silence agreement - If no one knew Sakura is Tohsaka, they would treat her like a Matou, which was the whole point of it. Tokiomi DOESNT know how easily forces can crush them/him. It was pretty clear in the war. being too stupid to see the speciffics =/= not knowing there are things dangerous to you in the world. That's source of Tohsaka's paranoia. The night is dark and full of terrors. The Tohsaka name has nothing to do with Rin having humanity. In Zelretch's POV it does - Its literally "Oh its Nagato's successor? Dude managed to encounter me and NOT have his family turn into shitty mess of cosmic horror? Well, geee, this will be interesting" |
AhenshihaelMay 24, 2014 8:07 AM
May 24, 2014 8:13 AM
#420
DA and everything elsehas nothing to do with MA or the Church kidnapping someone. That was the point of this discussion in multiple threads. Unrelated individuals and factions do not matter. Being close to the family head and the REST of the rest family would do the same. It isnt about Zouken's true goals.It is about Zouken himself. You honestly believe that Tokiomi was the only one in the world to not notice that he isnt a honest person? That isnt a logical reason. The families had close ties thanks to the creation of the ritual, getting close again wouldnt seem strange. You know I find it hard to believe that a guy that supposedly wants the best for his daughter just gives her to the first guy knocking at his door. Treating a being that can easily destroy the town you supervise with barely the respect it deserves isnt "the specifics". Rin is how she is because daddy is dead so yeah....It actually does has something to do with it, if she was raised by a Tohsaka she wouldnt have humanity.... |
May 24, 2014 8:45 AM
#421
ssjokg said: DA and everything elsehas nothing to do with MA or the Church kidnapping someone. That was the point of this discussion in multiple threads. Unrelated individuals and factions do not matter. Nope. The topic has always been about the threats to the sisters in the Magus world and how being head of a family can benefit them in protecting against them. Being close to the family head and the REST of the rest family would do the same. Not really since the one "close to" would have no actual "worth". The allies can just cry crocodile tears and bring bad news then. It isnt about Zouken's true goals.It is about Zouken himself. You honestly believe that Tokiomi was the only one in the world to not notice that he isnt a honest person? See: tokiomi and kirei. as I said before, Tokiomi's an idiot. That isnt a logical reason. The families had close ties thanks to the creation of the ritual, getting close again wouldnt seem strange. Considering the Three Great getting close together s enough to attract Church's attention, nope. You know I find it hard to believe that a guy that supposedly wants the best for his daughter just gives her to the first guy knocking at his door. Blame the narrative for that. They could have added ten or so pages detailing Tokiomi's search for other options. We know he did. Treating a being that can easily destroy the town you supervise with barely the respect it deserves isnt "the specifics". See above: Tokiomi's an idiot. Rin is how she is because daddy is dead so yeah....It actually does has something to do with it, if she was raised by a Tohsaka she wouldnt have humanity.... 1. We do not know the EVENTUAL outcome. Just that she won't be happy. Which is a point of view of Nasu. For me - a true happiness built after sorrow brought by clarity is worth far more than happiness built upon a lie. You'll have to wait for the upcoming Tohsaka Rin focused Visual Novel/Light Novel that deals with aftermath of one or multiple routes(common guess is that the Sea Cruise Mystery involves some inter-dimensional fuckery between different realities) and how she views what she found out about everything. 2. As I said above that's not how Zelretch sees it. |
AhenshihaelMay 24, 2014 8:50 AM
May 24, 2014 9:11 AM
#422
Fai said: souledge94 said: The real question is what kind of father would abandon his daughter the answer is not a very good one.Im sure sakura would have still been happy if she could stay with her actual family. since this is a prequel I know this prick will die and I cant wait to clap for that moment.YES! Ryuunosuke is dead wish he would have suffered more. That happiness would depend on her survival. In tokiomi's eyes, for a family that relies solely on their recognition to not get dissected, giving Sakura " a chance" at Matou household seemed more productive. Of course it was not a good choice because WE know more than he does. But at least in all possible futures both of them remain alive this way. ssjokg said: Well, in his opinion, even if Rin and Sakura try and kill each other in the future for some magi goal, especially the Tohsaka's goal, then everything is fine since that is the best the family could get because even though Sakura has the Matou name she still has Tohsaka blood. I think what we should hate on, is the very generic way of life magi have, not individuals since we get stuck on the "that's how they are".That doesnt really justify the treatment Sakura and others get. Which is generally how magi world works. Being rivals on even grounds trying to kill each other > One not even getting that and getting dissected somewhere. In his mind this gives them equal chances at making it. Awful in human society standards? Sure. Noble in Magus standards? Yep. HeisenDurden said: ssjokg said: I think what we should hate on, is the very generic way of life magi have, not individuals since we get stuck on the "that's how they are".That doesnt really justify the treatment Sakura and others get. Or the fact that he was retarded enough to gave his daughter to Zouken out of all people. Its canon that he did not know though. THe thing is why couldint he still check on sakura.I know he gave her away but that doesint mean he cant stop by and see how she is doing since I didint see anywhere stating other wise.This just proves that crap he was spewing about actually caring about giving them a chance is crap.I also have a gut feeling that even if he did know he former daughter was being raped by worms he wouldint give two dams since we see hes a terrible father with magic on the brain.Dam these kids got the short end of the stick.They didint have a good mom or pop their uncle was the only good source of family it seems.Though rin was more lucky since she wasint chosen to go to the creepy old mans house. |
souledge94May 24, 2014 9:24 AM
May 24, 2014 9:13 AM
#423
Not gonna participate in this discussion anymore, just wanted to say: We only know Rin probably would have become a different kind of magus if her father was still alive and raised her. Not any Tohsaka, just her father who strived to become a perfect magus, with all of a typical magus' traditions and values. We don't have enough info about any other older Tohsaka members besides the one or possibly two Zelretch interacted with (Nagato and his daughter) and he believed them to be at their core good-natured, so he entrusted the blueprint of his gem sword to them. |
May 24, 2014 9:15 AM
#424
Nope it was about random Sealing Designations forced on those without the rights of inheritance. With or w/o the inheritance threats from outside the Association would be the same for those "savage monkeys". Even Tokiomi's concerns are about the Association only. Not even the Church. In the case of the japanese, that nobody cares about in the western magi world, it would be the same even with a family name to "protect" them. There is a limit. You cant say that he is just an idiot. The Church that was allied with the Tohsaka family, the supervisors of Fuyuki, for the 4th and future wars? Yeah they would be really angry at them and cut all ties in an instant. Any source that proves that?Or it is just speculation? So he is an idiot only when it supports your argument?He is no genius like Rin but the story never portrayed him as an actual reatard. When it was about Rin he never stopped thinking of her future but for Sakura that ended the moment Zouken asked for her.After that it was "gee lets hope she is trained good enough to be a match for Rin". 1.So lets ignore the word of god because it is his view?What about Gen's view on Tokiomi? Tokiomi's "concerns" about Sakura dont match his actions. And that is YOUR view. If we dont take the original creators word as facts then we might as well accept everything, like Last Episode, or Rider not being as horrible as the real one, etc etc. You want MY views on this? Rin is one lucky orphan and Tokiomi just tries to justify his actions. Yeah I will wait for a story that will never come in order to confirm your speculations...Nice idea... 2.But thats how it would be. And that would change how he would view her. |
ssjokgMay 24, 2014 9:22 AM
May 24, 2014 9:31 AM
#425
souledge94 said: THe thing is why couldint he still check on sakura.I know he gave her away but that doesint mean he cant stop by and see how she is doing since I didint see anywhere stating other wise.This just proves that crap he was spewing about actually caring about giving them a chance is crap.I also have a gut feeling that even if he did know he former daughter was being raped by worms he wouldint give two dams since we see hes a terrible father with magic on the brain.Dam these kids got the short end of the stick.They didint have a good mom or pop. The answer is: Because Urobuchi needed him to be a villain. The in-story answer is harder to explain, besides simply accepting that he was an idiot to accept Zouken's deal. And honestly, I don't know why, it simply doesn't make sense. He is concerned about Sakura and what might happen to her, yet when he gives her away he stops worrying about her. What concerned parent would really do that? You might ask the same about Rin in FSN, why she never really noticed what happened to Sakura. Everyone knows she loves Sakura and vice versa, but she must have been blind to not notice the hints here and there (like Sakura's hair and eye color changing). Like Tokiomi, she probably could have easily put one and one together, but she simply didn't try to think that hard about this. |
May 24, 2014 9:36 AM
#426
C-Core said: And honestly, I don't know why, it simply doesn't make sense. He is concerned about Sakura and what might happen to her, yet when he gives her away he stops worrying about her. What concerned parent would really do that? A father that is concerned about the future that she will give(to the family etc) instead of the future she will have. |
May 24, 2014 9:49 AM
#427
ssjokg said: C-Core said: And honestly, I don't know why, it simply doesn't make sense. He is concerned about Sakura and what might happen to her, yet when he gives her away he stops worrying about her. What concerned parent would really do that? A father that is concerned about the future that she will give(to the family etc) instead of the future she will have. While I did think this is partially true, this can't be the only reason, if he sees Sakura's and Rin's potential as a curse and regrets that, in his opinion, unlike him they cannot choose the path of the magus out of their own free will.* Honestly, I simply miss more Tokiomi POVs that could have given a more sufficient explanation. He couldn't seriously believe his family will prosper just because he made Sakura heir to a family that a long time ago sought Akasha. It's even more baffling that he didn't check how Sakura is treated even though Matou and Sakura are almost neighbors. If he was concerned about a future she might give then what really will happen should concern him as well. Edit: *(and thus also the choice to live a normal life). I interpreted that as him having deeper thoughts of concern than only the ones of a magus. But yeah... interpretations. |
CapsuleCoreMay 24, 2014 10:14 AM
May 24, 2014 9:50 AM
#428
ssjokg said: C-Core said: And honestly, I don't know why, it simply doesn't make sense. He is concerned about Sakura and what might happen to her, yet when he gives her away he stops worrying about her. What concerned parent would really do that? A father that is concerned about the future that she will give(to the family etc) instead of the future she will have. basically his happiness over hers a crappy father in other words.God he sucks. Just a side note Im guessing the reason sakura looks so different from her mom and pops is an artistic choice.I mean she has purple hair and different color eyes.I thought kids are suppose to get something from their parents. |
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