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Pandora Hearts Chapter 71 Discussion

Poll: Pandora Hearts Chapter 71 Discussion


#1
03-17-12, 5:06 AM

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THIS IS A MANGA ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING BEYOND THIS CHAPTER.
----------------------------------------
So Oz's born was revealed. Poor Oz he was so self-sacrificing...
And the creepy Jack in the last page...Grrr-_-
Oh and of course Alice-Alyss born was what we already knew I think.
The only thing was surprising for me that Oz was first Lacie's doll, and he had 2 bodies.
Modified by Barbara-chan, 03-17-12, 5:11 AM
 
#2
03-17-12, 9:16 AM
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At least Oz considers Alice important (even though it seems like Intention of Abyss is the first "Alice" he knows).
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#3
03-17-12, 9:21 AM

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Puppets...that belonged to Lacie before they belonged to Black Alice, and his name IS Ozwald not Oswald ... I get it.

EDIT; Okay.. here we go. I'm glad we got more explanation than mindfuckery.

So this whole chapter is from the Oz puppets viewpoint.
From what I understand that Oz plush actually belonged to Lacie along with another "puppet" but The Core of the Abyss had the other one. When Lacie was going to die she gave her puppet to the Core and the puppets supposedly went to sleep when she died.

What exactly are the puppets supposed to represent? Literally the twins like we thought before?

Oz took in the darkness of the Abyss gaining a conscious(self-sacrificing?) and then would later become the Chain B-Rabbit.

So he really was a stuffed animal that turned into a Chain because of Alice's relation with the Abyss... only Alice named him Oz not Lacie.

Also.. the Will or was it the Core(?) wanted to give Jack one of Lacie's fragments, her wish(?) and he held the broken puppet laughing and crying and Black Alice was devastated when her puppet/Oz plush "died".

I loved how Jack was crying and laughing at the memory of Lacie.
Him&Ozwald watching her sing in a field of flowers... so cute. ; u;
Only poor Black Alice.. (well the trans says Black Alice and Will of Abyss lol)
Modified by cielleia, 03-17-12, 9:40 AM
❝ & your heart, as it was then, will be on f i r e.

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#4
03-17-12, 11:42 AM

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cielleia said:

I loved how Jack was crying and laughing at the memory of Lacie.
Him&Ozwald watching her sing in a field of flowers... so cute. ; u;


This. Im weak against Jack´s tears. (he finally cried for her "death").The way he held little Oz so dearly when he was seeing Lacie´s memory, was heartbreaking. That flower field and the three of them together was so beautiful, so genuine.

That psycho smile at the end must be something like "Im gonna get Lacie back no matter what" mode on.

I really cant hate Jack for now, Im sorry. We know everything he is doing is to make Lacie´s unknown "wish" come true and I agree he is being evil, but still....

anyway, I feel pretty bad for both Oz and Jack.

Poor Oz. If his body belongs to Jack(we dont know yet, but its likely) its gonna be so awful. I dont want him to die or to become B-Rabbit fulltime.
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#5
03-17-12, 12:37 PM

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Orulyon said:

Poor Oz. If his body belongs to Jack(we dont know yet, but its likely) its gonna be so awful. I dont want him to die or to become B-Rabbit fulltime.

This story is already sad, but it's going to be more sadder...

By the way I laughed on Oz reactions about Alice&Alyss, and when Alice wanted to eat him.
 
#6
03-17-12, 1:00 PM

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Orulyon said:

You really can't hate him now.. maybe dislike him a little.
This has now pushed itself to my top 5 favorite chapters.

Also.. I thought Jack said last chapter that the body is his.
Well... we won't know until Jun finishes PH. ; u;
❝ & your heart, as it was then, will be on f i r e.

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#7
03-19-12, 10:35 AM

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cielleia said:
Also.. I thought Jack said last chapter that the body is his.

Actually, Jack says "this body does not belong to Oz Vessalius", but he doesn't say it's his.

Alice is hysterically adorable in this chapter. XD So she already had this habit of biting Oz's cheeks back then, huh?
This chapter is pretty cute and also poignant. And I love the creepy Jack at the end. *shot*
 
#8
03-31-12, 3:59 PM

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What a cute, sweet, and sad chapter. Only PH can pull off all three at once! Alyss passing Lacie's memories on to Jack was so touching. I was never sure if Lacie actually cared about anything, but this gave her a real human self. Her interactions with the Will were nice too. And it looks like Oz loves Lacie deeply too, so I wonder how he'll feel and what side he'll be on once Jack's motives regarding Lacie's wish are fully revealed. Jack was great in this chapter. Loved the omake. ^_^
 
#9
03-31-12, 4:50 PM

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This chapter was truly beautiful. As I thought, Lacie really could go into the abyss whenever she wanted. She really is an amazing character, even though only a few chapters were dedicated to her, I still freaking love her.
I love when she says that she'll be bringing a "friend" for the abyss so it won't feel alone anymore, referring to the child she would give birth to. ;A;

And Alice being mean to Oz was just so funny. XD

will cry a little more now while re-reading the chapter ;;
Modified by Liinah, 03-31-12, 5:07 PM
 
03-31-12, 6:52 PM

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Lacie was alive somehow, more like her memories....I feel so bad for Oz. I wonder if he will tell Alice about him soon. The abyss is so mysterious...I can't wait for next chapter :)
Modified by princessnight, 03-31-12, 6:58 PM
 
04-01-12, 12:57 AM

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Oh so Oz lost one of his bodies and as it seems it was the one that was with white Alice or the one that was with Black Alice......Could it be also that this was the moment that Jack made a contract with Oz and maybe thats when he gained his B-rabbit powers because he inherited some piece of Lacie's soul....

So in the first chapter of pandora hearts when Oz finds the clock and goes to Alyss she really meant him when she said she waited for him and that he always kept her company when she was sad....after all Oz was always there....soo now i want to see why she hated him..was it because he disappeared or maybe something else
 
04-01-12, 3:56 AM
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Nothing rly amazing to this chap but it was very touching :< Seeing details of how stuff happened is good :< I felt sry abt everyone in there :< I still pity Oz from every side :< Damn you Jack T^T
 
04-01-12, 5:38 AM

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Dreamtime said:
..soo now i want to see why she hated him..was it because he disappeared or maybe something else

I believe that Glen somehow took the second stuffed Oz from Alyss and gave it to Alice since the one she had was destroyed. Maybe that's why she hates not only Glen, but Oz too. She said that Glen took her most important "person", not sure if she's referring to Jack, Alice or B-Rabbit itself.

Though the reason why she hated him once is probably not the same from now, she hated him even before meeting Jack, so he can't be the reason behind her rage. I was about to say that it could be Lacie, but Alyss says "I hate anyone who gets close to that person", and since she's dead.. At least is what we know so far. I've been wondering why the abyss didn't save her, I mean, Lacie was its only friend.
Modified by Liinah, 04-01-12, 6:05 AM
 
04-01-12, 7:56 AM

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The reason Alyss probably hated Glen (and Revis) originally is because he cast Lacie into the abyss, therefore making her (Alyss) stuck in the abyss. Though her most important person probably is Oz. Your probably right that since one of the bodies of Oz is gone that somehow, the Oz with Alyss goes to Alice instead. That would make her very, very lonely and she probably tries to make up for it with her other dolls and eventually the Cheshire cat (which Vincent later kills and she brings to the abyss and turns into a chain) while waiting for Oz to return.
 
04-01-12, 9:00 PM

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cool_inuyasha_gi said:
The reason Alyss probably hated Glen (and Revis) originally is because he cast Lacie into the abyss, therefore making her (Alyss) stuck in the abyss. Though her most important person probably is Oz. Your probably right that since one of the bodies of Oz is gone that somehow, the Oz with Alyss goes to Alice instead. That would make her very, very lonely and she probably tries to make up for it with her other dolls and eventually the Cheshire cat (which Vincent later kills and she brings to the abyss and turns into a chain) while waiting for Oz to return.

Also among all the dolls in the Abyss in White Alice's playroom... I've never seen a black rabbit. Which really helps the "White Alice's rabbit went to Black Alice" theory.
❝ & your heart, as it was then, will be on f i r e.

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04-02-12, 2:35 PM

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So, here was I thinking about something. When Alyss met Break in the abyss, she was really mean to him and a few minutes later she suddenly asked "Who are you?" and acted like she really didn't know him or didn't care at all. I've always wondered why she'd do that. At first I thought she could have switched places with Alice and Alice was the one asking that, but that would be too abrupt and whatever.
In this chapter we've seen that Alyss managed to save a piece of Lacie's memories, which was being destroyed by the "Abyss' darkness". I believe that the abyss mess with people's memories, that's why Alyss "forgot" about Break. That would explain why almost everyone who was in the Sablier tragedy 100 years ago, forgot everything about it. Oz, Gilbert, Alice (though Cheshire said that she was the one who wanted to forget).
 
04-02-12, 2:47 PM

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I think that the abyss is actually darkness and what gives life is the Personality of the Abyss.So whenever Alyss creates a new chain she loses something from herself o.o or maybe the darkness eats her as well the more depressed she gets

Im just thinking of some yin yang concept about the abyss because i think that white mass would have saved Lacie if it could.
 
04-03-12, 2:35 PM

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Idc what happens. All I want is Oz and Alice to run into the sunset with a happy ending. Otherwise my resistance to sadness will be broken and I will be depressed for weeks.
 
04-04-12, 6:01 AM

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Finally Oz's background. Now I wonder what might happen to him...
 
04-04-12, 11:57 AM

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Am I the only one that's starting to think that maybe it was Jack that killed Alice?
Dont touch me I'm in despair.
 
04-04-12, 12:06 PM

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Actually there are a few discussions with people that believe in this, like me.

So, I was wondering. That part of the abyss that Lacie used to go to and talk, that wasn't the "core of the abyss", was it? Just curious, though I believe it isn't 'cause when Revis said that she would be casted to the core, he said it like she didn't know which place it was.
 
04-07-12, 8:56 AM

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Poor Oz. But I'm a little glad because at least now I know why Oz felt nostalgic and wanted to trust Alice when he first met her. Since Jack appeared, I had always thought it was because of Jack and wondered how much Oz's feelings towards Alice where influenced by Jack. Would he care about her this much without Jack? So I'm glad to learn how they really first met and that it's all his own feelings. He was really grateful to Lacie and loved both Alices.
 
04-08-12, 10:47 AM

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wow. lots of theories and inferences made from this chapter.

i agree with the theory that oz's other body will end up with Alice. I kind of want it this way, not only because it explains Alyss's behavior but I love Alice and I don't want her to be alone, especially since she'll be alone soon. I think that since Oz has taken in the darkness of the Abyss that he will actually become B-Rabbit when Alice is killed in the tragedy. I think she will be killed by Jack, out of his sheer madness or by accident.

I also think this chapter is very telling of Oz's future. Given the events that led to the destruction of Oz's first rabbit body, I think Oz is going to sacrifice his human body to get rid of Jack and save Alice (and probably everyone else) in the process. I will be really heartbroken if this happens because above all the rest I want Alice to finally be happy and get what she deserves after all of this time. Please let us have an Alice and Oz running into the sunset ending!!!
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04-08-12, 1:35 PM

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aelove said:
I kind of want it this way, not only because it explains Alyss's behavior but I love Alice and I don't want her to be alone, especially since she'll be alone soon. I think that since Oz has taken in the darkness of the Abyss that he will actually become B-Rabbit when Alice is killed in the tragedy. I think she will be killed by Jack, out of his sheer madness or by accident.

I love Alice, but it makes me really sad for Alyss. I mean, Lacie ever since the beginning wanted to get rid of the abyss' solitude, yet it only made it lonelier after giving a body to it.

Anyways, no one replied their thoughts about what I said earlier. If Alyss turns out to be that "thing" that Lacie used to talk to, then it means that Alyss was her friend all along, explains why she felt so happy for sharing Lacie's memories with her beloved. Plus, I believe that Alyss really loved Alice, that's why she asked Break to save her. However, when Alice was reborn as B-Rabbit, Alyss started hating her because she became the one who left her all alone.

Damn, I really love those twins and their mother. ;;

edit: forgot to mention the reason why I think Alyss loved Alice back then: Probably because she was the only thing left of Lacie, she wanted to protect her so Lacie could be "alive" forever.
Modified by Liinah, 04-08-12, 4:58 PM
 
04-08-12, 4:44 PM

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Liinah said:
I love Alice, but it makes me really sad for Alyss. I mean, Lacie ever since the beginning wanted to get rid of the abyss' solitude, yet it only made it lonelier after giving a body to it.

Anyways, no one replied their thoughts about what I said earlier. If Alyss turns out to be that "thing" that Lacie used to talk to, then it means that Alyss was her friend all along, explains why she felt so happy for sharing Lacie's memories with her beloved. Plus, I believe that Alyss really loved Alice, that's why she asked Break to save her. However, when Alice was reborn as B-Rabbit, Alyss started hating her because she became the one who left her all alone.

Damn, I really love those twins and their mother. ;;

^THIS. I agree with all this.
❝ & your heart, as it was then, will be on f i r e.

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04-09-12, 3:12 PM

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Well... This chapter was... Weird (Getting used to "Oz"), Cute (Alice <3), heartwarming (Lacie, that two page spread was gorgeous, and I think somehow Lacie has become my favorite character).

And for an obsessive person like me, exciting.

this is why

Alice is wearing the same dress in each scene (though in the last one her neckband isn't crossed. Either Alice didn't cross it that time or Mochizuki tweaked the style (she changed Jack's earrings , they used to have a cap). Though its possible she... Just likes that dress... It's simply retarded to brush it off as nothing more. Then again, Jack is wearing different clothes between the first two links (or scenes around those times), so maybe she does just like that dress...??? Huh...

And confusing... as apparently the WoA gave the memory to Oz right when Jack first met Alice in person, it would make sense that is when he saw the memory, but Alice's clothes changes between the scenes. So either the abyss screwed up time again or an Alice switched places with her twin and got changed while Jack saw the memory... Um, this person is confused....

edit: abyss probably screwed up time, Jack's clothes are also different between when he first met alice and when he saw the memory

It would have been kind of interesting if it were Alice remembering this and not Oz. "Hey Oz? I remembered I used to have a little rabbit bunny I always called "Os" until this really weird guy told me it was "Oz"" I would have liked to see a conversation along those lines would have worked out... Ah well...

And Oz, oh, dear, Oz... I'm liking him more and more now <3 And his relationship with Alice as well.

So, is it that "Oz" the doll became "Oz the B-Rabbit" chain became "Oz Vessalius" the boy who's sin is his existence? How does Lacie's chain factor into all this? I wonder if the next chapter will be "Bloody Rabbit".
cielleia said:
Liinah said:
I love Alice, but it makes me really sad for Alyss. I mean, Lacie ever since the beginning wanted to get rid of the abyss' solitude, yet it only made it lonelier after giving a body to it.

Anyways, no one replied their thoughts about what I said earlier. If Alyss turns out to be that "thing" that Lacie used to talk to, then it means that Alyss was her friend all along, explains why she felt so happy for sharing Lacie's memories with her beloved. Plus, I believe that Alyss really loved Alice, that's why she asked Break to save her. However, when Alice was reborn as B-Rabbit, Alyss started hating her because she became the one who left her all alone.

Damn, I really love those twins and their mother. ;;

^THIS. I agree with all this.


Mmh. I really feel like there's still too much unknown about Alice/Will of the Abyss for me to draw any sort of conclusion from. However. The only thing that could possibly make ph any better would be some sort of sweet sisterly bond between them. Even if it went sour somewhere along the way, if at one point it existed I will melt forever in a puddle of happy goo.

Mmh. I suppose I'd also like some more development on Oswald, if I really had to think about what could make ph better...
Modified by Raemya, 04-09-12, 4:11 PM
 
04-09-12, 4:35 PM

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Raemya said:
And for an obsessive person like me, exciting.

this is why

YOU ARE MY GODDESS! I didn't even notice the dresses, OH MY. I NEED THE NEXT CHAPTER RIGHT NOW -cries- Though the scene from chapter 71 is probably from a different day from the other two 'cause Alice still didn't use braids on her hair.
 
04-09-12, 4:48 PM

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Liinah said:
OH MY. I NEED THE NEXT CHAPTER RIGHT NOW -cries- Though the scene from chapter 71 is probably from a different day from the other two 'cause Alice still didn't use braids on her hair.


You know, this was a really short chapter, and I was dead afraid we were going to be left hanging on what Lacie's memory was, but we got to see it, so I'm as content as I could possibly be. I still really really really want that chapter, though.

Good point! I figured the first two were probably from different days after a while of scrutinizing (Jack's clothes are different), and I suppose the last one would be after the tragedy of Sablier. What's infinitely baffling to me, though, is why the dress she wears when tears up her memory is that one and not the one she dies in
 
04-10-12, 4:15 PM

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I'm so confused...
 
04-10-12, 8:10 PM

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ichigo03 said:
I'm so confused...


Ditto that.

I swear... Pandora Hearts is quite good at looking like it makes sense. Except it really doesn't, if you start really thinking. Then some wham chapter comes along, and then it does make sense, and I feel like an idiot as I delightfully see that's it's been there all along.

Lacie's chain? Is it the chain form of the rabbit doll she took into the abyss, B-Rabbit? So was the rabbit "B rabbit" before it was dubbed "Oz"? How the heck to the two reconcile with each other?

Oz Vessalius? How did a human child end up with that first name anyways? Zai? Perhaps. Pretty much everything about Zai is a complete mystery, though. The body does not belong to "Oz Vessalius" and the soul is that of "Oz B rabbit". Last time I checked, humans were born with souls of their own, but who knows what's going on in this manga? Mochizuki, I hope to god... Rachele Cecile? Will she just be a name with no particular relevence to the story? I kind of doubt it, I certainly hope not. Insight on her as well as Zai sometime, pretty please?

The core of the abyss, the darkness of the abyss, the intention of the Abyss, I'M CONFUSED!!! I tried expanding on it in a coherent manner, but apparently my brain can't even handle that much. Pandora Hearts can be so damn mind boggling sometimes, and there are still more pecularities. At least the characters make sense.

Mostly.

I remember thinking that the this story was really getting to its answers and there weren't many mysteries left. I'm glad that on a second (so not second, but who the heck could keep count?) glance, this manga just defies expectations still more.

having expectations in this manga is just asking to have them broken. Why do we even try?
 
04-12-12, 6:50 AM

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Raemya said:

The core of the abyss, the darkness of the abyss, the intention of the Abyss, I'M CONFUSED!!! I tried expanding on it in a coherent manner, but apparently my brain can't even handle that much. Pandora Hearts can be so damn mind boggling sometimes, and there are still more pecularities. At least the characters make sense.

Well we also heard "Harmony of the Abyss."
In all honesty.
I think when they say "of" they mean like 'your doll, your house, your car.'
It's more posessive so it'd be the darkness that is the Abyss now or it's darkness
same for the Core and Harmony.

Intention/Will - means determination to act in a certain way
Darkness - of course it's dark or chaotic, different
Harmony - peace or calm or regularity
Core - the heart or middle of an object

That's how I put it besides the name Intention of the Abyss was given by Revis | L/Revy | Levi and called by that name by Lacie when she was younger.

The Intention/Will is the "personality" or so of the being in the Abyss, it can act on its own however it wants such as changing time. That could also very much just be White!Alice merged with the "thing" since Oz calls it that (and White!Alice is determined to get Jack and Alice back so that could work, for later on though.)
The Darkness is just that, the darkness of the Abyss since it no longer has golden lights flooded throughout it. (because of White!Alice's birth.)
Harmony - when the Abyss was a peaceful place not filled with Chains and bits of Sablier.
The Core - the heart of the Abyss where whatever ends up there dies with no chance of escaping (ex; Child of Misfortune are cast there because they won't be able to come back, Revis even said that.)

It'd be better to say Lacie spent time with the Will as she even called it that or "that thing" as Oz called it but we used "Core" only, that's where she was cast, so it doesn't make much sense honestly.
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04-12-12, 6:52 AM

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D - Did that make any sense ?
❝ & your heart, as it was then, will be on f i r e.

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04-12-12, 9:22 AM

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It made some...?

But even when the abyss was golden world, it was still referred to as having a dark core/darkness of the abyss.

Oh well. Retrace 68 - and some parts of 69 - just don't make sense to me, but I'll try to have faith in mochizuki making this clear sometime.

I mean, given what we know about Glen, Alice saying that Gil's soul would be swallowed in darkness and die isn't quite matching up either, and that was rather intentional (of course, it's also possible that Alice was just lying...) I am going to consign myself to having clues and no answers for the time being! Lalalala~

Ah - people last chapter were talking about Lacie's wish. Is there any proof it was really Lacie that was being referred to and not Jack's, or is this another "say my name" pronoun mixup?

................. Alright, am I missing something? Because, seriously, killing children of misfortune because they can affect the core of the abyss is a bit extreme, don't you think? Would it really have been too hard for Oswald to keep Lacie from interfering with the abyss? Glens are killing innocent people - people they often love - because they have a power only Glen is supposed to have? Am I the only one that thinks it's a bit silly?

Haruumph. In any case, there's a lot this manga hasn't told us yet. I'll try to track down some patience. Actually, it's nice that there are still mysteries; they can be so frustrating exciting.
Modified by Raemya, 04-12-12, 9:31 AM
 
04-12-12, 9:45 AM

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Raemya said:
................. Alright, am I missing something? Because, seriously, killing children of misfortune because they can affect the core of the abyss is a bit extreme, don't you think?

It is extreme, but is not like Glen could get all the children of misfortune and lock them somewhere, it'd be way easier to kill them. Though I don't know if they are only casted intoto the abyss in Glen's ceremony, or in any case. I guess it's in any case 'cause when Jack and Lacie were teased by those weird men in the city, they said that the child of misfortune worths a lot. So they're probably gathered somewhere and given to the Baskervilles or something.
 
04-13-12, 1:07 AM

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Hmm after reading the chapter again......it looks like Alice lost something important- Oz and Jack who saw Lacie and with all the fresh memories of her rushing to his head he could have flip out then and start the tragedy......
The white puffy cloud that is called the Intention of the Abyss can grant life and when its happy the Abyss becomes this beautiful place but still the intention of the abyss cannot resurrect people,it can only make them chains.(so i think Oz gave his life in order to keep Alice alive by giving his powers to her and that's how she became the B-rabbit)

I also think the reason Alyss call's Oz her beloved person is because he was also one of the things that Lacie left behind and also he was always there being with her..

Btw i was wondering did Vincent ever try to play with OZ D::D: just imagine Oz as a bunny rabbit seeing Vincent with those scissors and also im happy Gil didn't become the next Glen because then he would have to punish Vincent and banish him to the core
 
04-20-12, 7:45 PM

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NO!! I CAUGHT UP!!! :((

Now I can't speed through this wonderful manga...

Ah well. great chapter as always. It's awesome getting to understand this whole mystery even if it is piece by piece. I am waiting for the translation of 72 atm. Can't waiiiiiit!
 
04-22-12, 10:05 AM

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I'm a bit curious about Alice right know.
Just a weird thought that came in my mind when I read the first two chapters (I didn't read all post, so if something like that was already mentioned I'm sorry):

In the second Chapter they called her "Phantom of the Abyss" in the fan translation.
In my copy of the first Volume (in German) they called her "Verdammter Geist des Abyss"
"Verdammt" can mean something offensive or just damned/condemned.
"Geist" can be translated in ghost/spirit/phantom.
"des Abyss" means of the Abyss

Isn't a ghost something dead that came back (sorry, weird explanation I know xD)
Back then in the tragedy of Sablier she died.
And in another Chapter she almost dissolved. (?)

"Oz! (..) please promise me that when I'm in trouble or if there are people that want to hurt me you'll come and save me." - Alice, Chapter 70
What if Oz failed to save her (or like already mentioned: killed her) and then tried to atone?
What if the Alice B-Rabbit is just a memory fragment of the Alice we saw in this Chapter, being kept alive by Oz B-Rabbit and/or the Intention of the Abyss?
But she (black Alice) tore up her memory by her own.
Why does she name the Rabbit Oz (from Oswald) out of all names?
And why is their (the twins) name a anagram of Lacie?
Was that just random from Mochizuki-sama or does that have a meaning.
Why did white Alice recognize Jack? "I found him...!"
Why does she know the name of Lacie? I thought she 'died' after giving birth in the abyss.
Was it the "lonely one" Lacie gave the Rabbit who spoke that sentence?
Then is white Alice's mind twisted between Lacie's Child and the Abyss?
Why do the twins both have the name "Alice"? They're two different persons.

I'm confused. So many questions @__@

(PS: I'm sorry about (grammar) mistakes *bows down*)
 
04-22-12, 6:05 PM

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Neun said:
Why does she name the Rabbit Oz (from Oswald) out of all names?
Why did white Alice recognize Jack? "I found him...!"
Why does she know the name of Lacie? I thought she 'died' after giving birth in the abyss.
Then is white Alice's mind twisted between Lacie's Child and the Abyss?
Why do the twins both have the name "Alice"? They're two different persons.

So many questions. XD But okay:
Why does she name the Rabbit Oz (from Oswald) out of all names?
One of the Alices really seems to like Oswald, she even copies the way he talks. He is her uncle and she doesn't know many names anyways, so she picked his name.

Why did white Alice recognize Jack? "I found him...!" / Why does she know the name of Lacie? I thought she 'died' after giving birth in the abyss.
White Alyss is the core of the abyss (and I believe she's that "thing" that Lacie used to talk to) and when Lacie was sacrificed, Alice saved a piece of her memories. By watching her memories, she knew who Lacie and Jack were, also that he was someone important to her, that's why she gets so happy when she finds him.

Then is white Alice's mind twisted between Lacie's Child and the Abyss?
White Alice is probably just the Abyss, she's not "human" like the other Alice.

Why do the twins both have the name "Alice"? They're two different persons.
Lacie thought she was going to have just one baby, so she probably said to Revis that she wanted to name it as Alice. However two babies were born and one was named Alice while the other one is the Will of the Abyss. But since they used to change bodies, White Alice probably wanted to be like her sister and started calling herself Alice as well.
 
04-22-12, 11:21 PM

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Liinah said:
Neun said:
Why does she name the Rabbit Oz (from Oswald) out of all names?
Why did white Alice recognize Jack? "I found him...!"
Why does she know the name of Lacie? I thought she 'died' after giving birth in the abyss.
Then is white Alice's mind twisted between Lacie's Child and the Abyss?
Why do the twins both have the name "Alice"? They're two different persons.

So many questions. XD But okay:
Why does she name the Rabbit Oz (from Oswald) out of all names?
One of the Alices really seems to like Oswald, she even copies the way he talks. He is her uncle and she doesn't know many names anyways, so she picked his name.

Why did white Alice recognize Jack? "I found him...!" / Why does she know the name of Lacie? I thought she 'died' after giving birth in the abyss.
White Alyss is the core of the abyss (and I believe she's that "thing" that Lacie used to talk to) and when Lacie was sacrificed, Alice saved a piece of her memories. By watching her memories, she knew who Lacie and Jack were, also that he was someone important to her, that's why she gets so happy when she finds him.

Then is white Alice's mind twisted between Lacie's Child and the Abyss?
White Alice is probably just the Abyss, she's not "human" like the other Alice.

Why do the twins both have the name "Alice"? They're two different persons.
Lacie thought she was going to have just one baby, so she probably said to Revis that she wanted to name it as Alice. However two babies were born and one was named Alice while the other one is the Will of the Abyss. But since they used to change bodies, White Alice probably wanted to be like her sister and started calling herself Alice as well.


Hmm, actually, I disagree with quite a few of these answers and some of them are incorrect.

Alice names her rabbit Oz, because Alice (Black Alice, the Alice we know) liked her uncle a lot. I do agree with you that she probably didn't know very many names, and therefore chose his name.

White Alice (or Alyss as I refer to her) recognized Jack because she had the memories and feelings of Lacie within her. And just like how Oz the Rabbit was able to see and feel the memories and emotions that Lacie had, so was Alyss, which is how she recognized Jack right away (she saw him in her mother's memories).

When it comes to these memories "Alyss" had no part in actually saving them. The original Japanese makes no mention of that, we are simply told that Lacie's memories and feelings that were found within Alyss survived, which indicates to me that they were so strong and Lacie was so determined for Jack to see and understand them, that they were able to not got annihilated like the rest of her memories and feelings and body did.

I disagree completely with you when it comes to White Alice being "just the Abyss" and not "human" like the other Alyss. It's been stated (and shown) in the manga that Alyss was born just like Alice was in the Abyss, but Alyss (probably the twin who was born first) was the one who become the body vessel for the Core of the Abyss, which is exactly what Levy (Revis) had wished to happen. He wanted to give the Core a human vessel, thinking that might change things, and Lacie thought this might help the Core of the Abyss become less lonely so she took part in his experiment.

Personally, I think the reason why Alyss is so twisted is because her mind is constantly in conflict with her own thoughts and feelings and those of the Core of the Abyss (which was the presence which Lacie felt and interacted with). Having been locked away in the Abyss for so long, and having a proper body in which to display and feel emotions has caused a lot of strain and mental damage to happen to Alyss, especially considering the fact that she is in a mental state that is similar to Leo (constantly hearing a voice, or possibly voices, since I am of the opinion that the Core of the Abyss is made up of previous Children of Misfortune) or even to a similar state like that of Oz with Jack.

If she is experiencing split personalities, or if she literally has two different consciousness living within one body, and this would explain her outbursts and quick changes in personality. It could also explain her wish rather easily: Alyss no longer wants to be the Will of the Abyss, and she also asks "that girl" to be saved. That girl could be referring to Alice, but it could also be referring to Lacie. If it is referring to Lacie, then this could be the part of the wish that comes from the Core of the Abyss, who would like to see that sweet girl who visited the Abyss to find and have happiness.

If "that girl" is referring to Alice, then it could be possible that parts of Lacie's memories and feelings are still within Alyss and the motherly nature of Lacie is showing through, wanting her other daughter to be safe.

Finally, as to why the twins are both named Alice? Who knows. Levy sure didn't talk to Lacie about it. He seemed surprised by Alice's presence as well as by her name. Lacie's body got annihilated the moment she got dragged down into the Abyss and reached the Darkness of the Abyss. So Alice and Alyss were probably never actually given physical "birth" because they were cradled by the Core of the Abyss until they were fully developed babies and then they were born.

So, Lacie never had the time to give names to her children (it is a mystery who named them and how).

If Lacie and Levy (Revis) had discussed baby names before, then I think he would have had one picked out for the Will of the Abyss already (since that was the only child he was expecting, and he never expected to interact with his child anyway, because they would be in a part of the Abyss that he could not enter unless it was an emergency).

So yeah, who knows, maybe that will get explained one day when Alice gets all of her memories back? But who knows~

By the way, sorry if anything got posted weird or whatnot, this is my first time posting on these forums, so excuse my noob-ness! m(_ _)m
 
04-23-12, 3:03 PM

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LilyGinnyBlack said:
White Alice (or Alyss as I refer to her) recognized Jack because she had the memories and feelings of Lacie within her. And just like how Oz the Rabbit was able to see and feel the memories and emotions that Lacie had, so was Alyss, which is how she recognized Jack right away (she saw him in her mother's memories).

When it comes to these memories "Alyss" had no part in actually saving them. The original Japanese makes no mention of that, we are simply told that Lacie's memories and feelings that were found within Alyss survived, which indicates to me that they were so strong and Lacie was so determined for Jack to see and understand them, that they were able to not got annihilated like the rest of her memories and feelings and body did.

I disagree completely with you when it comes to White Alice being "just the Abyss" and not "human" like the other Alyss. It's been stated (and shown) in the manga that Alyss was born just like Alice was in the Abyss, but Alyss (probably the twin who was born first) was the one who become the body vessel for the Core of the Abyss, which is exactly what Levy (Revis) had wished to happen. He wanted to give the Core a human vessel, thinking that might change things, and Lacie thought this might help the Core of the Abyss become less lonely so she took part in his experiment.

If she is experiencing split personalities, or if she literally has two different consciousness living within one body, and this would explain her outbursts and quick changes in personality. It could also explain her wish rather easily: Alyss no longer wants to be the Will of the Abyss, and she also asks "that girl" to be saved. That girl could be referring to Alice, but it could also be referring to Lacie. If it is referring to Lacie, then this could be the part of the wish that comes from the Core of the Abyss, who would like to see that sweet girl who visited the Abyss to find and have happiness.

If "that girl" is referring to Alice, then it could be possible that parts of Lacie's memories and feelings are still within Alyss and the motherly nature of Lacie is showing through, wanting her other daughter to be safe.

Finally, as to why the twins are both named Alice? Who knows. Levy sure didn't talk to Lacie about it. He seemed surprised by Alice's presence as well as by her name. Lacie's body got annihilated the moment she got dragged down into the Abyss and reached the Darkness of the Abyss. So Alice and Alyss were probably never actually given physical "birth" because they were cradled by the Core of the Abyss until they were fully developed babies and then they were born.

I don't know about the japanese scans, but in english it sounds like Alyss "saved" a piece of Lacie's memories. If her memories were so strong, then all of them would still be there. Even the Abyss was destroying Lacie's memories, Alyss was the one keeping them.

It's not mentioned that Alice named herself when she first appeared, even Revis says "Let me welcome you, Alice". I still think that Lacie told him to name her baby like that or somehow Lacie's feelings got to Alice. I don't think Lacie would want to name the baby as "Will of the Abyss", she wanted the Abyss not to feel alone anymore and she would probably want it to be "human".

And Alyss specifically said "Save, Alice". Well, it's not like we can be 100% right when it comes to PH, but I still keep my theories and thoughts.
 
04-23-12, 5:16 PM

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Liinah said:
LilyGinnyBlack said:
White Alice (or Alyss as I refer to her) recognized Jack because she had the memories and feelings of Lacie within her. And just like how Oz the Rabbit was able to see and feel the memories and emotions that Lacie had, so was Alyss, which is how she recognized Jack right away (she saw him in her mother's memories).

When it comes to these memories "Alyss" had no part in actually saving them. The original Japanese makes no mention of that, we are simply told that Lacie's memories and feelings that were found within Alyss survived, which indicates to me that they were so strong and Lacie was so determined for Jack to see and understand them, that they were able to not got annihilated like the rest of her memories and feelings and body did.

I disagree completely with you when it comes to White Alice being "just the Abyss" and not "human" like the other Alyss. It's been stated (and shown) in the manga that Alyss was born just like Alice was in the Abyss, but Alyss (probably the twin who was born first) was the one who become the body vessel for the Core of the Abyss, which is exactly what Levy (Revis) had wished to happen. He wanted to give the Core a human vessel, thinking that might change things, and Lacie thought this might help the Core of the Abyss become less lonely so she took part in his experiment.

If she is experiencing split personalities, or if she literally has two different consciousness living within one body, and this would explain her outbursts and quick changes in personality. It could also explain her wish rather easily: Alyss no longer wants to be the Will of the Abyss, and she also asks "that girl" to be saved. That girl could be referring to Alice, but it could also be referring to Lacie. If it is referring to Lacie, then this could be the part of the wish that comes from the Core of the Abyss, who would like to see that sweet girl who visited the Abyss to find and have happiness.

If "that girl" is referring to Alice, then it could be possible that parts of Lacie's memories and feelings are still within Alyss and the motherly nature of Lacie is showing through, wanting her other daughter to be safe.

Finally, as to why the twins are both named Alice? Who knows. Levy sure didn't talk to Lacie about it. He seemed surprised by Alice's presence as well as by her name. Lacie's body got annihilated the moment she got dragged down into the Abyss and reached the Darkness of the Abyss. So Alice and Alyss were probably never actually given physical "birth" because they were cradled by the Core of the Abyss until they were fully developed babies and then they were born.

I don't know about the japanese scans, but in english it sounds like Alyss "saved" a piece of Lacie's memories. If her memories were so strong, then all of them would still be there. Even the Abyss was destroying Lacie's memories, Alyss was the one keeping them.

It's not mentioned that Alice named herself when she first appeared, even Revis says "Let me welcome you, Alice". I still think that Lacie told him to name her baby like that or somehow Lacie's feelings got to Alice. I don't think Lacie would want to name the baby as "Will of the Abyss", she wanted the Abyss not to feel alone anymore and she would probably want it to be "human".

And Alyss specifically said "Save, Alice". Well, it's not like we can be 100% right when it comes to PH, but I still keep my theories and thoughts.


With Alyss saving a piece of Lacie's memories...It appears to be a combination of the two. I just went back and checked my translation of and I had this:


Alyss: “Take this to that person…! From within the darkness…This was the sole thing I was able to pick out…The shards of Lacie’s memories…Her feelings…I’m certain she wanted them to reach that person…” (Ch. 71, p. 23).

This seemed to be the only bit of Lacie that survived and it was because of the strong feelings that were associated with it (Lacie really wanted Jack to see them and get them). The Will of the Abyss (the Core more so than Alyss) must have sensed Lacie's "presence" and decided to keep the memories and feelings safe after experiencing them, which is how the Will of the Abyss knew that Jack was the one that Lacie wanted to give these memories and feelings to.

He said that then, but that was after Alice introduced herself. We see Alice's arrival into the "real world" in Retrace 69 on page 30:

Alice (Flashback): ‘My name is…Alice.’ (She introduced herself without anyone prompting her to do so and right after she came out of the Abyss). Since all of Lacie, except for those memories and feelings that the Will of the Abyss found and then kept until Alyss saw Jack were the only things that remained of Lacie (and as Jack states in this newest Retrace, 72, Lacie had become a part of the Abyss), I am going to assume that they somehow named themselves.

That part is definitely still a mystery. Oh, and I agree with you that Lacie probably would not have agreed to Levy's naming the Will of the Abyss, the Will of the Abyss, after all he stated in Retrace 69, page 31:

Levi: “Lacie always talked about the core of the Abyss having a personality. If that’s the case, should I prepare a different name for it be recognized by…? Hmm…’Cora,’ ‘Little Abyss’……I have a hunch Lacie would kill me….Ah! At the present, I believe that something that is easy to understand is in order. So how about this? ‘Will of the Abyss.’”

(No, Levy, Lacie would still kill you because of that name! XD)

Ah, it had been a while since I saw the Will of the Abyss' wish. While she does say "save Alice," I find it odd that she states that she wants to Break to help her "and that girl," since Alice and Alyss seem to be aware of the fact that they are sisters/twins. Of course, that could have been the Core talking, but a part of me wonders if "that girl," was actually Alyss referring to Lacie, with her wanting Break to help her and that girl, while also saving Alice.

After all, Alyss is not aware of the fact that Lacie is her mother, but she probably saw Lacie thanks to the memories and feelings she carried within her. Therefore, she could be referring to Lacie when she mentions "that girl," because she doesn't know any other way to refer to her.

Of course, that is just speculation, and when Retrace 63 originally came out we were meant to correlate "that girl" with Alice, but now that we know about Lacie and have the information about some of Lacie's feelings and memories being in the Will of the Abyss, that leaves some room for other interpretations of the text. We'll just have to wait and see though.
 
04-23-12, 5:23 PM

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LilyGinnyBlack said:

With Alyss saving a piece of Lacie's memories...It appears to be a combination of the two. I just went back and checked my translation of and I had this:


Alyss: “Take this to that person…! From within the darkness…This was the sole thing I was able to pick out…The shards of Lacie’s memories…Her feelings…I’m certain she wanted them to reach that person…” (Ch. 71, p. 23).

This seemed to be the only bit of Lacie that survived and it was because of the strong feelings that were associated with it (Lacie really wanted Jack to see them and get them). The Will of the Abyss (the Core more so than Alyss) must have sensed Lacie's "presence" and decided to keep the memories and feelings safe after experiencing them, which is how the Will of the Abyss knew that Jack was the one that Lacie wanted to give these memories and feelings to.

He said that then, but that was after Alice introduced herself. We see Alice's arrival into the "real world" in Retrace 69 on page 30:

Alice (Flashback): ‘My name is…Alice.’ (She introduced herself without anyone prompting her to do so and right after she came out of the Abyss). Since all of Lacie, except for those memories and feelings that the Will of the Abyss found and then kept until Alyss saw Jack were the only things that remained of Lacie (and as Jack states in this newest Retrace, 72, Lacie had become a part of the Abyss), I am going to assume that they somehow named themselves.

That part is definitely still a mystery. Oh, and I agree with you that Lacie probably would not have agreed to Levy's naming the Will of the Abyss, the Will of the Abyss, after all he stated in Retrace 69, page 31:

Levi: “Lacie always talked about the core of the Abyss having a personality. If that’s the case, should I prepare a different name for it be recognized by…? Hmm…’Cora,’ ‘Little Abyss’……I have a hunch Lacie would kill me….Ah! At the present, I believe that something that is easy to understand is in order. So how about this? ‘Will of the Abyss.’”

(No, Levy, Lacie would still kill you because of that name! XD)

Ah, it had been a while since I saw the Will of the Abyss' wish. While she does say "save Alice," I find it odd that she states that she wants to Break to help her "and that girl," since Alice and Alyss seem to be aware of the fact that they are sisters/twins. Of course, that could have been the Core talking, but a part of me wonders if "that girl," was actually Alyss referring to Lacie, with her wanting Break to help her and that girl, while also saving Alice.

After all, Alyss is not aware of the fact that Lacie is her mother, but she probably saw Lacie thanks to the memories and feelings she carried within her. Therefore, she could be referring to Lacie when she mentions "that girl," because she doesn't know any other way to refer to her.

Of course, that is just speculation, and when Retrace 63 originally came out we were meant to correlate "that girl" with Alice, but now that we know about Lacie and have the information about some of Lacie's feelings and memories being in the Will of the Abyss, that leaves some room for other interpretations of the text. We'll just have to wait and see though.

I feel like when Alyss says "Save that girl, save Alice" it's more like she wants to keep alive the only thing left from Lacie (beside Oz), I guess she feels that way more than sister-like. It's actually really cute. <33
Just a little spoiler from the newest chapter:

Your theory about Alyss mind being twisted because of her human and abyss "part" is actually interesting, it may be. Mine is that the abyss actually mess with people's memories and since Alyss is the one who stays there almost all the time, the powers that it holds may affect her too much.
Modified by Liinah, 04-23-12, 5:26 PM
 
04-23-12, 7:52 PM

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Liinah said:
Just a little spoiler from the newest chapter:


I won't talk too much about Retrace 72 here, because this is for Retrace 71, but translations are already up (you can find them over at my Tumblr, here is a link to Part One: http://lilyginnyblack.tumblr.com/post/21330084134/retrace-72-english-translation-part-one

We actually get a lot more information on the Abyss itself rather than Lacie. But I'll refrain from saying anything else because this isn't the thread in which to discuss it! XD
 
04-24-12, 10:05 AM

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LilyGinnyBlack said:
Liinah said:
Just a little spoiler from the newest chapter:


I won't talk too much about Retrace 72 here, because this is for Retrace 71, but translations are already up (you can find them over at my Tumblr, here is a link to Part One: http://lilyginnyblack.tumblr.com/post/21330084134/retrace-72-english-translation-part-one

We actually get a lot more information on the Abyss itself rather than Lacie. But I'll refrain from saying anything else because this isn't the thread in which to discuss it! XD

Someone actually told me about your tumblr, but I rather wait for the translations on the scans. I get easily lost reading only the text. Thank you anyways. ~
 
04-25-12, 7:51 PM

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Actually the way it was scanlated with the english translation and images.
It looks more like Alice (The Intention) was saying, and that girl over there, I want you to save [her] Alice.
❝ & your heart, as it was then, will be on f i r e.

— anna akhmatova
 
04-29-12, 5:19 AM

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Well I have a thought about that(because of Oz), we have just one soul within 2 bodies, but in one of it there is the Core too, so the name is explained for me like that, and makes sense about Oz 2 bodies too, and what Alyss(the Core) said to Break that she the Core/Alyss don't want to be the will of the Abyss any more(I think that is because she experienced the outside world, and that made the Core more lonely), and the "break, break" is defined to break the chains, what is explained in ch.72, and the last part "I want you to help me, and that girl Alice", so the Core want to break free, and realize Alice too.
For Lacie to get back her, Jack must go to the past to save her, or make the Core save her, there is not much choice, because she's already gone...
I think Alice soul is not full right now, and a part of her is in the Abyss, in Alyss's body, and right now that's why they change their mentality, because Alice has anger, and the Core has loneliness.
A part of Alice is has Oz's vessel, because I think she wanted to protect Oz.

This is so confusing if you ask me@_@
 
05-24-12, 6:41 PM

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Hold the fuck up.

All the time I thought that Alice = B-Rabbit
and she's in contract with Oz

But the truth is Oz=B-Rabbit
That's the reason why he can use B-Rabbit power at his own will without alice powers . For example : He can wield a Scythe and screw people up when he's pissed because he's the B-RABBIT .

Seriously, this author is an expert in mindfucking people
Actually glad that nepal is facing disaster
 
04-26-14, 3:58 AM

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Woah. I re-read this chapter 4x in a row but still I'm so confused . Mind f* chapter but damn good XD
 
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