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Poll: Pandora Hearts Chapter 70 Discussion


#1
Feb 18, 2012 2:28 AM
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THIS IS A MANGA ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING BEYOND THIS CHAPTER.
----------------------------------------
Jack meeting Alice in person.

So... Leo = Glen and Oz = Jack?? And Jack, using Oz, is going to kill Leo, but Oz fights back.

Gil remembering everything.

Jack saying that Oz is just nothing, and he's just using Oz to get Lacie back.

Then to the incident, he was shown that Jack vs. Glen and Oz was b-rabbit, not Alice. So the b-rabbit with Lacie in Jack's memory was Oz?? Then showing that the rabbit doll with Alice in the closed room is Oz.
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#2
Feb 18, 2012 1:55 PM

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tsubasalover said:
THIS IS A MANGA ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING BEYOND THIS CHAPTER.
----------------------------------------
Jack meeting Alice in person.

So... Leo = Glen and Oz = Jack?? And Jack, using Oz, is going to kill Leo, but Oz fights back.

Gil remembering everything.

Jack saying that Oz is just nothing, and he's just using Oz to get Lacie back.

Then to the incident, he was shown that Jack vs. Glen and Oz was b-rabbit, not Alice. So the b-rabbit with Lacie in Jack's memory was Oz?? Then showing that the rabbit doll with Alice in the closed room is Oz.

Wow... big spoiler to start the discussion... without any warning for spoiler...
 
#3
Feb 18, 2012 2:27 PM

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Shit got real. Oh my GAWD.

Oz is B-Rabbit?! Was Jack pretending to be Glen´s friend to save Lacie no matter what?

And hints that
.

So Oz was Jack´s and Lacie´s chain'?! T_T and a close friend to Alice, it seems.

Translation for the raws here.

Jun you´re the best, you´re always trolling everyone. XD
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#4
Feb 18, 2012 2:32 PM

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Now thats what Zai meant when he said Oz's sin is his very existence. Now who is Zai's real son since he swapped him for our Oz?
"What has two arms, two legs, and is alive? Not your favorite character thats for sure!"
 
#5
Feb 18, 2012 4:06 PM

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... Oz = B-Rabbit... my mind still can't wrap around that.
&& Yes.. who is Zai's real son ?

I can't believe Jack would really use all those people for one person that didn't really show him much affection in the end. Then again... who knows about Jack ? At one point I thought he was a total nut.
❝ & your heart, as it was then, will be on f i r e.

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#6
Feb 18, 2012 4:41 PM

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Orulyon said:
Shit got real. Oh my GAWD.

Oz is B-Rabbit?! Was Jack pretending to be Glen´s friend to save Lacie no matter what?

And hints that
.


He starting pretending because Oswald was no longer "Lacie's Brother" but "Head of the Baskervilles, Glen" as in... Jack believed he no longer cared for Lacie so he abandoned the true friendship.

&& I agree with that spoiler. That seems most likely, no ?
❝ & your heart, as it was then, will be on f i r e.

— anna akhmatova
 
#7
Feb 18, 2012 5:10 PM

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Roloko said:
Now thats what Zai meant when he said Oz's sin is his very existence. Now who is Zai's real son since he swapped him for our Oz?


Good question. And where did Zai get baby B-Rabbit? and why did b-Rabbit assumed a human body/form? and how does a chain makes a contract with other...chain? (is Alice really a chain?!).

And what the hell are those experiments of the ancestors that were made that Jack refers in his thoughts?

and wow, before becoming a chain, Oz was...a plushie?! A PLUSHIE. like a cute sweet version of those creepy dolls of the Will of the Abyss. im depressed for him. and hell, if he appears as plushie with Alice, why did he appeared before as chain with Lacie?! when was B-Rabbit born as a chain and was created by whom?



So wait tecnically, Jack didnt even killed Glen, it was ALL...Oz.
OMG, poor Oz, for the first time in PH i feel very sorry for him and i wanna hug him. I guess Jack will take over his body now.

Pray for LeoGlen guys... T_T

cielleia said:

I can't believe Jack would really use all those people for one person that didn't really show him much affection in the end. Then again... who knows about Jack ? At one point I thought he was a total nut.


Human heart can be pretty confusing, but i do understand Jack. Lacie is the only form of attachment he ever known and the sole reason of him being alive.
So basically the only ones he cared about was her and Alice. Damn, now im starting to feel pity for Glen. I still want to believe Jack liked Glen somehow a bit...and liked Vince a bit too.

One thing is certain: Jack wont stop until he gets Lacie back or as he mentioned "her wish". We still dont know what Lacie wished for, but he will certainly not hesitate to make it come true by whatever means necessary.

Jeez im mindfucked.

cielleia said:

He starting pretending because Oswald was no longer "Lacie's Brother" but "Head of the Baskervilles, Glen" as in... Jack believed he no longer cared for Lacie so he abandoned the true friendship.

&& I agree with that spoiler. That seems most likely, no ?


thank you for explaining me;) makes more sense now T_T it seems Jack really abandoned the true friendship otherwise he would at least leave Leo alive, but he is trying to kill him T_T *my heart cries for Jack x Glen* T_T

and yes it seems that...well, Oz... T_T


oh and did anyone noticed...Gil?! grabbing Glen´s head and then his hand reaching for...a gun! payback time Now that he remembered... it technically means...that he must kill Oz/Jack...(remember when he almost tried to kill Alice? he is compelled to protect his master no matter what, and his true master is Glen/Leo which is in REAL danger now).
Oz killed Glen and Jack is about to kill Leo in Oz´s body... and omg, poor Gil, becoming the servant and best friend of your enemy...


My mind is going to explode.
Modified by Orulyon, Feb 18, 2012 5:53 PM
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#8
Feb 18, 2012 6:30 PM

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Orulyon said:

Good question. And where did Zai get baby B-Rabbit? and why did b-Rabbit assumed a human body/form? and how does a chain makes a contract with other...chain? (is Alice really a chain?!).

And what the hell are those experiments of the ancestors that were made that Jack refers in his thoughts?


Well Jack cut the chains of B-Rabbit so he could take in it's full power. Since he's an illegal contractor, he will eventually die after being dragged into the Abyss. That would leave B-Rabbit a body to inhabit since Jack would be dead and he even took in B-Rabbit's power within him.

Orulyon said:
and wow, before becoming a chain, Oz was...a plushie?! A PLUSHIE. like a cute sweet version of those creepy dolls of the Will of the Abyss. im depressed for him. and hell, if he appears as plushie with Alice, why did he appeared before as chain with Lacie?! when was B-Rabbit born as a chain and was created by whom?


Or that could have been another form he had besides his true form. Jack could have given it to her since he wanted to take care of her and saw her often. Also the Will/Intention said she would never forgive Jack... or was it Oz? If it was Jack, then would it be for using her to obtain his wish, right? Or if it was Oz, then it's because


Orulyon said:


Actually, that would be interesting, only Vincent lived during the Tragedy along with Gilbert. This makes that kind of awkward especially since Gil is to be the next Glen and is already at least around 10 years old at the time.

Orulyon said:
So wait tecnically, Jack didnt even killed Glen, it was ALL...Oz.
OMG, poor Oz, for the first time in PH i feel very sorry for him and i wanna hug him. I guess Jack will take over his body now.

Pray for LeoGlen guys... T_T

Yeah, this is the first time I've felt bad for him too. Haha, at first I never really liked him now I'm like .... wow, I feel pretty bad for ya !

Orulyon said:
Human heart can be pretty confusing, but i do understand Jack. Lacie is the only form of attachment he ever known and the sole reason of him being alive.
So basically the only ones he cared about was her and Alice. Damn, now im starting to feel pity for Glen. I still want to believe Jack liked Glen somehow a bit...and liked Vince a bit too.

One thing is certain: Jack wont stop until he gets Lacie back or as he mentioned "her wish". We still dont know what Lacie wished for, but he will certainly not hesitate to make it come true by whatever means necessary.


Well I feel he liked Vince truly as he was also a Child of Misfortune like Lacie and thus felt bad he would also die? Hmm, I'd like to know what her wish was.. of course we probably already know it and Jun's just waiting to troll us. DARN YOU.

Orulyon said:
Jeez im mindfucked.

and yes it seems that...well, Oz... T_T


oh and did anyone noticed...Gil?! grabbing Glen´s head and then his hand reaching for...a gun! payback time Now that he remembered... it technically means...that he must kill Oz/Jack...(remember when he almost tried to kill Alice? he is compelled to protect his master no matter what, and his true master is Glen/Leo which is in REAL danger now).
Oz killed Glen and Jack is about to kill Leo in Oz´s body... and omg, poor Gil, becoming the servant and best friend of your enemy...


My mind is going to explode.

And the fact that his eyes turned red, like B-Rabbit's should have confirmed that but of course... we would miss that. cx

That's true, I forgot. Except if Alice's soul is still chained to B-Rabbit's power.. she'll definitely die if Gil kills Oz because he is B-Rabbit himself. D:
Modified by cielleia, Feb 18, 2012 6:33 PM
❝ & your heart, as it was then, will be on f i r e.

— anna akhmatova
 
#9
Feb 18, 2012 10:30 PM

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It makes perfect sense that Oz = B-Rabbit. I mean, I figured that B-Rabbit was independent from both Alice and Lacie considering that Lacie contracted with B-Rabbit as a separate chain, Alice was originally human, and even after supposedly becoming B-Rabbit, the B-Rabbit power was being suspiciously siphoned away from Alice by Oz. It was just a matter of figuring out who/what B-Rabbit was, and this explains why its power was drawn to Oz - very anomalous expression of a chain's power.

Also, in retrospect, this explains why Oz has been associated with rabbit symbolism in Jun's art all this time. It's baffled me for so long - why he was depicted as brown rabbits and wearing hats with black rabbit ears. But the rabbit in Alice's dress is supposed to be Oz too? That's... weird... but okay. Others have pointed this out, too, that it was odd how Alice would appear in pictures as herself AND holding the "Alice rabbit" doll. But Oz appears with the "Alice rabbit" doll too. And there's this other light brown rabbit... *brain asplodes*

Aaanywhoo... in one flashback about Sablier (this + next page), there's a voiceover of "Stop it. I don't want to kill people!!" which I had assumed was Jack's (since it's being quoted and showing Jack) and had hypothesized was Jack possessed by something urging him to kill people. But, given chapter 70, there's a very good chance it was Oz saying that. Hrm (this could undermine my sense of Jack's conflicted feelings during the tragedy).

Jack is also treading on dangerous ground with my liking of him as a character. I had thought that the revelations in chapter 65 had given him depth, expanding him from a squeaky-clean hero to a more morally ambiguous figure who is plagued by genuine internal conflict. I really hope that is still the case. If I find out that his friendship with Glen isn't sincere, that there's no agonizing dilemma there between his loyalties to Glen and to Lacie, and that he's just using Glen (and Alice) to get to Lacie... then, the way I see it, he just traded in a shallow "hero" personality for a shallow "love-obsessed" personality, and didn't really gain complexity as a character.

Plus I don't like insincerity... I don't even know if I can call his devotion to Lacie sincere. I sympathize with it and understand how powerful it is and why, I get that he was a shell of a person and she was the only glimpse of light and hope in his life, but it's still primarily an infatuation with a girl he barely knows. Such single-minded obsession is hard for me to respect unless there's a believable foundation for it (ex: Vince's love for Gil). To me, such love is admirable only after it's been tested and perseveres against other heartfelt loyalties. I can respect Jack choosing Lacie over everything else if that was an actual choice he had to think about and make, and not if it was just his default position and everything else be damned.

What has me worried is the quote: "[Oswald] doesn’t know anything, doesn’t understand anything. And that’s precisely why, somewhere in his heart, he yearns for somebody to share with. Not with the Baskervilles whom he has to rule over, but with a friend such as myself – he’ll expose his weakness. I will enter from the cracks to look for information on the Abyss."

I still have hope for the sincerity of Jack's tears, though. And there's still so much we don't know about what exactly he (and Revis) was trying to do. What really was at stake? I would want to know everything he knew about the Abyss, the experiment, and Lacie's state of existence, as well as the potential consequences of Jack's, Revis' and Oswald's goals, before I know how I feel about it. I anticipate many more riveting twists to come. ^_^
Modified by Neiru2013, Feb 19, 2012 3:12 AM
 
Feb 19, 2012 12:52 AM

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Hey guys, where can i find this to read?
I just saw the 69 and can't find the 70! ):
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Feb 19, 2012 2:15 AM

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I knew it! Oz was from the Abyss.
 
Feb 19, 2012 3:03 AM

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So... if Oz was originally a rabbit doll... is he like the Velveteen Rabbit? :D

Buuut Lacie contracted with B-Rabbit before Alice was born and so before Alice got attached to the rabbit doll. So, unless Lacie's B-Rabbit and Alice's B-Rabbit are separate chains, and/or unless there's a time warp sending Alice's B-Rabbit to the past so that Lacie can contract with it, the entity B-Rabbit "Oz" existed before the rabbit doll. Unless, like, Lacie also had that rabbit doll and it was already B-Rabbit back then and... I give up until we know more. XD

Aside from having influence over the flow of time, Alyss listed two other powers of the Abyss during Break's flashback: it can turn humans into chains, and it can grant will to those without life. Is Oz a result of the latter? Did Alice, a being with intimate access to the Core, pour so much love and attention into the rabbit doll who (in addition to Cheshire) kept her company during her lonely days in the tower that it gained a will of its own? It's not that much different from the animate dolls that live in Alyss' room in the Abyss.

The "Alice doll" might share its symbolism between Alice and Oz now... but there's just so, so many rabbit dolls around... black ones, brown ones, light brown, white, etc. Alyss has many white rabbit dolls, but seems to prefer expressing herself only through one. Could the same be true of the black rabbits? Is only one of them Oz and/or Alice and the rest something else? And, if so, could there be multiple Black Rabbits, which would account for Lacie's B-Rabbit chain predating Alice and Oz?

@Hooked: the low quality raws and text translation of chapter 70 are up on the Pandora Hearts LiveJournal community, but you need to be a member to see them. Otherwise the scanlators will release the chapter in a few days.
 
Feb 19, 2012 8:23 AM

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If there are so many B-Rabbits... then you could consider B-Rabbit to be like Humpty Dumpty? Except we don't know if B-Rabbit really splits up into so many others or if there are even any other B-Rabbits besides Oz and the currently linked Alice.
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Feb 19, 2012 11:24 AM

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Well anybody from here read the Alice novel, to know more about PH? Because I didn't°_°"
I was wondered, what I knew from the film/cartoon/manga/etc, that a lot of people could be associated with the real story, and a lot of happening. So I was wondered that who is the nother rabbit, and Oz is now going to be vanish in the end...:S
Jack=watchmaker
Vincent=watchmaker's servant the headhunter, and the queen's headhunter(I think this was associated with Miranda, just not for Vincent, but Jack)
Oz= the main rabbit
Alice=Alice
Gil&Vincent kids=twins
Glen= could be the king but I'm not sure
Gil=???
Miranda=Queen
Duke Barma=that smoking thing
Ok I know some roles are changed and mixed, but some of this can be recognized, but there are some who I couldn't, like who is the nother rabbit^^"
And the tiny-big thing was too in the manga in the end XD

Hmm I was thinking about this too but, is it possible that Lacie is going to be return?
 
Feb 19, 2012 12:28 PM

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Barbara-chan said:

Jack=watchmaker
Vincent=watchmaker's servant the headhunter, and the queen's headhunter(I think this was associated with Miranda, just not for Vincent, but Jack)
Oz= the main rabbit
Alice=Alice
Gil&Vincent kids=twins
Glen= could be the king but I'm not sure
Gil=???
Miranda=Queen
Duke Barma=that smoking thing
Ok I know some roles are changed and mixed, but some of this can be recognized, but there are some who I couldn't, like who is the nother rabbit^^"
And the tiny-big thing was too in the manga in the end XD

Hmm I was thinking about this too but, is it possible that Lacie is going to be return?

But Alice also has a twin sister and Zwei (Noise) has another personality that shares her body called Echo which could also symbolize twins. Their Chain is called Doldum in reference to the Tweedle twins. Also, when Gilbert brought out Raven they ran off.

Tweedledee and Tweedledum ran away from the giant Crow in the story and never got to start their battle over the brand new rattle.

Also I thought.
Jack = Lewis Carrol, as he loved kids just like Jack does.

Oz = White Rabbit (that's it's name)

Glen = The Red King because it would make sense in that Miranda loves him (his head I should say) and wants his head. If she is counted as the Red Queen, which connects her to the Chain also known as The Queen of Hearts. It would make sense because all three, Red Queen/Hearts, Miranda and the Chain all loved heads.

Duke Barma = The Caterpillar, knowledgeable in every subject.

Echo&Noise aka Zwei = Tweedle Twins

Who is the watchmaker you mentioned for Jack? & There's only one rabbit but there is a March Hare which is similar to a rabbit.

So far, still not sure about Lacie's return although I don't think she'll come back but rather help Jack move on. Why? I dunno.
Modified by cielleia, Feb 19, 2012 12:42 PM
❝ & your heart, as it was then, will be on f i r e.

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Feb 20, 2012 12:15 PM

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So if Oz really did kill Alice there's definitely no chance of them getting together and all my musings about Oz and Alice running off into the sunset together were all in vain T_T Why would he kill her though if they were such good friends?? Unless he was made to (by Jack?)? Thanks alot Jun, I'm starting to think this is gonna end really badly now!! I hope it's not like Death note where they kill off all the main characters :'(
 
Feb 20, 2012 12:30 PM

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Also, does anyone else think Oz being B-rabbit has something to do with Alice disappearing???
 
Feb 20, 2012 5:26 PM

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OzxAlice said:
So if Oz really did kill Alice there's definitely no chance of them getting together and all my musings about Oz and Alice running off into the sunset together were all in vain T_T Why would he kill her though if they were such good friends?? Unless he was made to (by Jack?)? Thanks alot Jun, I'm starting to think this is gonna end really badly now!! I hope it's not like Death note where they kill off all the main characters :'(

Oz was that stuffed rabbit at the end of LXX or at least she called him "I'll call you Oz". Alice asked if the rabbit would always be there when she needed it. I don't think Oz would have killed her in his right state of mind but as B-Rabbit he seems to go homicidal whether Jack tells him otherwise so if Alice was hurt in some way, maybe emotionally he was trying to help her like when she said "But of everyone I'm scared of myself the most" or if someone tried to hurt her and Oz ended up hurting her along with her attacker(s)...

Also.. yes it does entirely. If he takes full control of his power it's possible Alice will cease to exist. As of right now she is nothing more than a soul bound to B-Rabbit which remains unknown. :c
❝ & your heart, as it was then, will be on f i r e.

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Feb 20, 2012 5:47 PM

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ValerianWizard said:
Orulyon said:
Shit got real. Oh my GAWD.

Oz is B-Rabbit?! Was Jack pretending to be Glen´s friend to save Lacie no matter what?

And hints that
.

So Oz was Jack´s and Lacie´s chain'?! T_T and a close friend to Alice, it seems.

Translation for the raws here.

Jun you´re the best, you´re always trolling everyone. XD




He hated Alice because she made Gil make "that face" I don't think that's enough to kill her than her cat and stuffed animals. He also had to take Gil and leave through the Door of the Abyss.. Oz as B-Rabbit wouldn't blame Vincent either because he'd be doing it for Alice. Who he said he'd do anything for her if it made her feel better. Who'd want to live through a tragedy such as Sablier's or if Jack was really using her like Revis said he could would she want to be hurt by beytral ?
❝ & your heart, as it was then, will be on f i r e.

— anna akhmatova
 
Feb 20, 2012 6:38 PM

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I think if it was Vincent it wouldnt be a troll, and we know Jun loves to troll us. I believe that Vince did hate Alice and even killed Cheshire, but for sure he didnt kill her, c´mon, it must have been B-Rabbit who killed her, and B-Rabbit is probably Oz. In chapter 20, Oz says in a berserk moment that "he will destroy Alice", so it makes sense. But then, again, didnt Alice died murdered by scissors? if it was B-rabbit, it doesnt make sense to use scissors...
I thought Jack could have killed her, but then, if it was Jack, then why did he got so mad with Glen in the flashback and yelled "You want to use Alice?!". I believe if there is anything genuine in Jack´s heart its only two simple things: Lacie and Alice( simply for being Lacie´s daughter, its enough). I dont think it was Jack even if he doesnt give a shit about others.
but iam certainly curious how B-Rabbit became Jack´s chain...for that i do have a hint on chapter 20
,


cielleia said:
if Alice's soul is still chained to B-Rabbit's power.. she'll definitely die if Gil kills Oz because he is B-Rabbit himself. D:


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Feb 20, 2012 8:01 PM

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Orulyon said:
I think if it was Vincent it wouldnt be a troll, and we know Jun loves to troll us. I believe that Vince did hate Alice and even killed Cheshire, but for sure he didnt kill her, c´mon, it must have been B-Rabbit who killed her, and B-Rabbit is probably Oz. In chapter 20, Oz says in a berserk moment that "he will destroy Alice", so it makes sense. But then, again, didnt Alice died murdered by scissors? if it was B-rabbit, it doesnt make sense to use scissors...
I thought Jack could have killed her, but then, if it was Jack, then why did he got so mad with Glen in the flashback and yelled "You want to use Alice?!". I believe if there is anything genuine in Jack´s heart its only two simple things: Lacie and Alice( simply for being Lacie´s daughter, its enough). I dont think it was Jack even if he doesnt give a shit about others.
but iam certainly curious how B-Rabbit became Jack´s chain...for that i do have a hint on chapter 20
,

But B-Rabbit is Oz... what do you mean probably? Yes he did say "I'll destroy Alice if it makes her happy, I'll destroy everything that makes you sad!" I believe Oz would kill her with scissors because he could hide those better than hiding a giant scythe especially if he was in his plush rabbit form. But since Alice was falling from the ceiling (it seems in the memory) then how ... ?

I think when he said "You want to use Alice!?" because he needs her to talk to the Intention who can grant his wish. Without Alice he can't fufill his plan to bring back Lacie (or fufill her wish) Also Revis said he could use Alice however he wishes... it makes me wonder if he honestly cares for Alice or if it's merely a facade to get to the Intention.

He gained his Chain from the Intention because he learned about Celia's Chain, became interested and wanted one so learned a way to enter the Core in order to meet with the Intention have tea and cookies, call her a glutton, and obtain a Chain for himself... (which would be Oz, also couldn't it have been the Intention who was calling Oz her friend? Since it seems that of the two the Intention loves "dollies" more ? So then she would give Oz as a present to Jack for being her friend? Okay... now I'm just going off track. ) Okay I get it. Also Oz's body is Jack's so it could just be Jack's memory that Oz is seeing.

Orulyon said:



Gil + Leo + Vince = Baskervilles
Bakservilles - Vince = Defected to get his wish granted
Vince + Jack(Oz) = Master and Servant
Alice ... all alone. On neither side because she does not know this Glen and not with Oz because ... well if he DID kill her... why would she?

If Jack does really care about Alice, then it would also be for their friendship and not only the fact that Alice is Lacie's daughter. If he truly doesn't care about her though, then it's to keep her alive to continue seeing the Intention to get closer to granting his or Lacie's wish. the Will loves Jack? More like obssessed ahaha.

Oh damn, there is too much going on in Pandora Hearts. Jun... why you make us think so much ?!
Modified by cielleia, Feb 20, 2012 8:05 PM
❝ & your heart, as it was then, will be on f i r e.

— anna akhmatova
 
Feb 21, 2012 7:14 AM

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OzxAlice said:

You didn't say anything ... ?
❝ & your heart, as it was then, will be on f i r e.

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Feb 21, 2012 7:30 AM

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I know it missed off the end of my message- computers seriously messed up

In the opera house Rufus Barma was telling Alice that she wanted to forget her memories because they were too painful and if she remembered she'd want to die. So something really traumatic must have happened to her and maybe she asked Oz to kill her cause she couldn't carry on? They did make a promise that Oz would always help when she was in need... I don't know, I'm still peeling bits of my brain off of the wall
 
Feb 21, 2012 9:58 AM

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Yeah, I think Oz would kill Alice if he thought she wanted him to and if it would make her happy. Of course, we also don't know if he actually did.

We also don't know if Alice would die if Oz does. I mean, prior to her fading in 65, I would never imagine that her personal existence would be affected by the loss of B-Rabbit power. I mean, she's existed perfectly fine on her own before, so I don't see how being separated from that power would do anything except turn her human again. But yeah, her fading is troubling... we still don't know why that's happening, though, or where she's going.

The same question can be asked of Alyss, though. She doesn't want to be Will of the Abyss anymore... does that mean she'll die if she stops being WotA? does she want to die? I think there must be a way to separate both Alice and Alyss from the powers that got attached to them, and just have them be human.
 
Feb 21, 2012 12:35 PM

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cielleia said:

But Alice also has a twin sister and Zwei (Noise) has another personality that shares her body called Echo which could also symbolize twins. Their Chain is called Doldum in reference to the Tweedle twins. Also, when Gilbert brought out Raven they ran off.

Tweedledee and Tweedledum ran away from the giant Crow in the story and never got to start their battle over the brand new rattle.


Ok because English is not my mother language, and I didn't read the Alice novel this was a new thing for me.

cielleia said:

Also I thought.
Jack = Lewis Carrol, as he loved kids just like Jack does.


That was the writer of the real story, right?

cielleia said:

Oz = White Rabbit (that's it's name)

Glen = The Red King because it would make sense in that Miranda loves him (his head I should say) and wants his head. If she is counted as the Red Queen, which connects her to the Chain also known as The Queen of Hearts. It would make sense because all three, Red Queen/Hearts, Miranda and the Chain all loved heads.

Duke Barma = The Caterpillar, knowledgeable in every subject.

Echo&Noise aka Zwei = Tweedle Twins

Who is the watchmaker you mentioned for Jack? & There's only one rabbit but there is a March Hare which is similar to a rabbit.


These are usefull stuffs, thx^^ The watchmaker probably my mistake, because there was an Alice manga where a watchmaker was a main charachter, or could be said it was a shinigami thing, and I thought that the real Alice story has something similar too, but I was wrong^^"

cielleia said:

So far, still not sure about Lacie's return although I don't think she'll come back but rather help Jack move on. Why? I dunno.


Well Lacie had some stuffs in her mind I think...
 
Feb 21, 2012 1:17 PM

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Barbara-chan said:

These are usefull stuffs, thx^^ The watchmaker probably my mistake, because there was an Alice manga where a watchmaker was a main charachter, or could be said it was a shinigami thing, and I thought that the real Alice story has something similar too, but I was wrong^^"



Yes I know that manga too. Altough in the novel there's no watchmaker the white rabbit is always late and always checks his pocket watch. (so watches might come from that line :) )
 
Feb 22, 2012 11:03 PM

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Yes I totlly agree with this! When Zai's son was born the doctors said there was something wrong with him... maybe because he was a child of misfortune???
 
Feb 25, 2012 9:43 AM

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About Oz killing Alice. I also think he did as it was pretty much openly said earlier.
Here and on the next page.
Yura was trying to recreate the tragedy of Sablier and it was so similar that Vincent had a flashback earlier, then read what Oz is thinking on those pages.
At first I thought those were Jack's memories, but then all the other chapters came out.
As for Vincent, that would be way too obvious. The scissors were bloody because he killed her cat, but technically he could have just left them there(he didn't have them in the Abyss). Not to mention that it's pretty hard to kill someone with scissors.
 
Feb 25, 2012 9:55 AM

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GracefulDownfall said:
About Oz killing Alice. I also think he did as it was pretty much openly said earlier.
Here and on the next page.
Yura was trying to recreate the tragedy of Sablier and it was so similar that Vincent had a flashback earlier, then read what Oz is thinking on those pages.
At first I thought those were Jack's memories, but then all the other chapters came out.
As for Vincent, that would be way too obvious. The scissors were bloody because he killed her cat, but technically he could have just left them there(he didn't have them in the Abyss). Not to mention that it's pretty hard to kill someone with scissors.


I'd completely forgot about this, but you're right, he pretty much confesses to killing Alice!! This story just keeps getting sadder and sadder!!!

Also, IF Vincent is Zai's real son, that would make Ada his sister... who he dated! :S
 
Feb 25, 2012 9:59 AM

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OzxAlice said:


I'd completely forgot about this, but you're right, he pretty much confesses to killing Alice!! This story just keeps getting sadder and sadder!!!

Also, IF Vincent is Zai's real son, that would make Ada his sister... who he dated! :S


Except he didn't really like Ada anyways he thought she was weird and ... well a Vessalius. He only dated her to make Gil happy and to get to Oz, I believe ? I know for sure about that Gil getting off his back though.
❝ & your heart, as it was then, will be on f i r e.

— anna akhmatova
 
Feb 25, 2012 11:00 AM

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WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You mean PH chpater 70 has only been released in OV don't you??????????? cuz i can't find the english version anywhere !!!!!!!!!!!! can't understand anything of the raw version T_T
 
Feb 26, 2012 12:36 PM

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I'm betting that it really is Oz who killed Alice because in chapter one, she stated that http://www.mangareader.net/350-24630-35/pandora-hearts/chapter-1.html Oz stayed by her side whenever she was sad, but a few pages after that, http://www.mangareader.net/350-24630-38/pandora-hearts/chapter-1.html she said that she would never forgive him. For what? Possibly killing/ betraying her...

Then a few pages after that, she said that she was going to teach him feelings of disparity,etc. negative feelings hinting that he didn't feel feelings when he was in his chain form, but now that he's "human", he has gained that sense.
Makes sense? OTL Gomen, I'm bad at explaining things. XD
 
Feb 26, 2012 3:07 PM
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Wtf did I just read?

^is my reaction. This manga will never cease to amaze me profoundly.
 
Feb 26, 2012 3:32 PM

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My mind is so blown right now, O_O the whole entire chapter; sorry ahead of time if these sound like dumb questions, so if Oz is the B Rabbit that makes him a chain from the abyss right? then how the does the whole connection between him and Alice work, or the seal for that matter. I'm so lost right now, Also if that body doesn't belong to Oz then how is he inside of it, so many questions XD.
 
Feb 26, 2012 3:44 PM

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Haaah, Jun...Stop breaking my mind every chapter, my mind can't take it anymore! Dx
So many things that's going on, so many twists here and there...

I want to read more! D8

Anime-Planet.com - anime | manga | reviews
 
Feb 26, 2012 4:27 PM

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So if Oz is a chain, then does that mean he's a chain within a -

/shot

Now if we can only get an anime remake based solely on the manga.

My life will be complete.

Shit just totally got real.
Modified by VCH, Feb 26, 2012 4:31 PM
 
Feb 26, 2012 4:40 PM

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OH SH*T
 
Feb 26, 2012 5:43 PM

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Maffy said:
Wtf did I just read?

^is my reaction. This manga will never cease to amaze me profoundly.


This is how I feel.
 
Feb 26, 2012 5:57 PM

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Anyone have any theories on why does Oz have a contractor seal if he is a chain?

And well, if Zai switched his newborn son for the Oz we know, then he's certainly responsible for B-Rabbit's comeback, right? Maybe Zai offered his own son's body to be the vessel for B-Rabbit's soul or something, and the true Oz is gone because of that... although I have no idea why the Baskervilles would want to bring B-Rabbit back.

idk o.O
 
Feb 26, 2012 7:02 PM

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Chains don't have to be that much different from humans. Many chains used to be humans. The Baskervilles are more chain that human, and they're perfectly capable of forming contracts with other chains. And, on top of this, Oz is in a human body - not his own, but in Jack's "container" - so I don't see why it's so strange that the body could make a contract. It's more of a contract between Jack and B-Rabbit than between Oz and himself. Of course, there's still something strange about this body, since its blood tastes different from that of a human. But, even so, we're back to the fact that Baskervilles form contracts all the time.
 
Feb 26, 2012 7:05 PM

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Shion97 said:
Maffy said:
Wtf did I just read?

^is my reaction. This manga will never cease to amaze me profoundly.


This is how I feel.

same here.
 
Feb 26, 2012 8:13 PM

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I can't believe Mochizuki-sensei mindfucked us. Again.
Oz... is B-Rabbit... Like Neiru2012 said, it does make sense with the theories that had been running around my head... I just never expected it.

And Jack. I'm beginning to like him less, but I still don't know. He does lie in this chapter, absolutely lie, when he says he doesn't know about Alice to Glen. Everything else he says throughout the chapter were half truths, and maybe that can be construed as a truth in some way- I don't know. I do think he cared about Oswald, but he feels that Oswald has become Glen and abandoned himself.

While it is possible that Oz/B-Rabbit killed Alice, I still see no absolute evidence. The scissors we saw still could mean something, and definitely hints that Vince was up there at some point. However, the part that @Wapplesieat mentioned was a very good point. At the beginning, in Oz's "Dream", he sees Alice, in what might be the dress she wears during the Tragedy of Sablier. However, when he angers this Alice, she changes into her B-Rabbit clothes and threatens to slowly torture and kill Oz. I'm not sure what this means yet.. The idea that is floating around right now is that Oz did kill her, and that Alice/B-Rabbit represents himself, his own self-hatred at having killed the one he loved most. (Similar to Vincent's "A wretch I want to kill one of these days" comment to me~)

But what happened to the original Oz Vessalius? Oscar told Break that Zai took the baby away, and Break theorizes that the baby was exchanged with another. I had a theory that maybe they merged B-Rabbit Oz with the baby Vessalius (after all, he still looks like a Vessalius), but not so much when I remembered the whole 'body remembers' spiel. Plus, Oz says himself he's an odd contractor. His seal is always visible, but unlike Break's, it is not fully completed, and it doesn't have the same effect on his body. Maybe, like it keeps telling us the Abyss can, the Abyss rewound Jack's body and spit him back out? (I'll find a reference later)
So I'm really unsure about what happened to Zai's son, though I guess it could be Vince. Since Gil and he aren't twins, it's plausible, and maybe that is part of why his mother threw him out.
(And the masquerade mask here is interesting...)

Also doesn't Zai look a little like this guy who is tailing Jack in a memory? Just sayin'...
Modified by ToshiMonster, Feb 26, 2012 8:27 PM
 
Feb 26, 2012 8:53 PM

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This chapter mind boggles my head, so then what is alice? According to the 3rd old glen (the one with blonde hair, revis) alice was born out of the abyss (along with the other alice) and returned to the human world, so then that would mean she's human and was able to perhasp return return to the abyss freely after she died? who is that on page 44-45? is it alice or lacie? i cant tell. so then it would make sense if oz was the b-rabbit and alice was trying to get out of the abyss but needed oz's power to do so, and the fact that alice/lacie knows the bunny on the last page of this chapter means that its probably alice who probably has power of the abyss and turn oz (the bunny) into a chain, so then if thats the case then who's oz/jack's body really belong to? and how did jack die? this mess will probably be cleared up nxt chapter
 
Feb 26, 2012 9:46 PM

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Too much mind fuck. Cannot comprehend. I'm going to have to reread the beginning of this arc since only one chapter comes out each month and I tend to forget things during each month.
 
Feb 26, 2012 10:12 PM

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what a shocking chapter....many people guessed Oz is a chain...but I never thought he would be B-Rabbit!! i wonder what will happen to him or what will Alice think of him from now on~ Can't wait!
 
Feb 26, 2012 10:22 PM

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Daw, somebody else already noticed... anyways, the dress Alice was wearing when she was shown dead (http://www.mangareader.net/350-24649-3/pandora-hearts/chapter-20.html), was the same one in Oz's flashback fun in 59 (http://www.mangareader.net/pandora-hearts/59/11) meaning that it's very proable that Oz killed Alice.
Also, while Vincent possibly being Zai's son may be interesting, the doctor's saying something is "wrong" could also mean that he may've been stillborn (or something), right? (I think that might make sense...)
...Another thing, "Oz" would probably be derived from "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz" right? And, correct me if I'm mistaken, didn't the wizard come from a foreign land (or something)? (Suddenly Oz's name makes that much more sense... >_>")
Ah, on the whole "Alice fading" thing, I know that she's probably somehow connected to the B-Rabbit's power and all that, but I'm still not sure exactly how... (Does she solely exist because of them? Are they only responsile for her material form? Is she able to still coexist with Alyss without them? Who exactly set this up? (Yay, food for thought (with no answers.)
...Oz's life really sucks in this chapter. XD
 
Feb 26, 2012 10:54 PM

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Holy Crap! JACK!!!! I was you absolute most loyal fan and NOW NOW I'm doubting you...

I can't believe...sigh....

Vincent can't be Zai's son because how then would he be alive 100 years ago?
I would say that Zai was there then too, but I would think Oscar would know if his little brother was someone coming from the past. Unless Oscar is really as crazy as the rest of the cast...):

Sigh...I am kind of actually terrified how it will all end...the other day I was dreaming theories and I actually came up with an ending that made me feel sick. I wonder if Breaks Red eyes are going to bring more meaning? Or also if there is some importance to Gil & Vinces real mother?

Whatever my predictions tend to be wrong....

I hope Jack has a hearts, and I hope Oz didn't kill Alice...maybe Miranda did? As revenge?

ALSO! Oscar, Oz, Ada and Zai...I have to add the first three are common Victorian era names whilst Zai is not.
 
Feb 27, 2012 12:26 AM

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Aw, man. My head just exploded. :-o. Poor Oz. Best manga ever. Damn jack, I am so annoyed with you right now!
 
Feb 27, 2012 12:36 AM

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iciclepop said:
Shion97 said:
Maffy said:
Wtf did I just read?

^is my reaction. This manga will never cease to amaze me profoundly.


This is how I feel.

same here.

I definitely agree... I'm still pretty speechless but this was such an amazing chapter! It answered many questions while raising a bunch of other ones at the same time... I can't wait for the next chapter! I hope that Jack somehow redeems himself in the coming chapters. :( He used to be one of my favorite characters, so seeing this twisted side of him emerge is quite saddening!
 
Feb 27, 2012 1:09 AM

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shit hit the fan^^
 
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