PandoraHearts
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| THIS IS A MANGA ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING BEYOND THIS CHAPTER. ---------------------------------------- Jack meeting Alice in person. So... Leo = Glen and Oz = Jack?? And Jack, using Oz, is going to kill Leo, but Oz fights back. Gil remembering everything. Jack saying that Oz is just nothing, and he's just using Oz to get Lacie back. Then to the incident, he was shown that Jack vs. Glen and Oz was b-rabbit, not Alice. So the b-rabbit with Lacie in Jack's memory was Oz?? Then showing that the rabbit doll with Alice in the closed room is Oz. |
I ♥ Two Syaorans from Tsubasa RESERVoir CHRoNiCLE and TRC!!! |
| Shit got real. Oh my GAWD. Oz is B-Rabbit?! Was Jack pretending to be Glen´s friend to save Lacie no matter what? And hints that So Oz was Jack´s and Lacie´s chain'?! T_T and a close friend to Alice, it seems. Translation for the raws here. Jun you´re the best, you´re always trolling everyone. XD |
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
| Now thats what Zai meant when he said Oz's sin is his very existence. Now who is Zai's real son since he swapped him for our Oz? |
"What has two arms, two legs, and is alive? Not your favorite character lol! xD" |
Roloko said: Now thats what Zai meant when he said Oz's sin is his very existence. Now who is Zai's real son since he swapped him for our Oz? Good question. And where did Zai get baby B-Rabbit? and why did b-Rabbit assumed a human body/form? and how does a chain makes a contract with other...chain? (is Alice really a chain?!). And what the hell are those experiments of the ancestors that were made that Jack refers in his thoughts? and wow, before becoming a chain, Oz was...a plushie?! A PLUSHIE. like a cute sweet version of those creepy dolls of the Will of the Abyss. im depressed for him. and hell, if he appears as plushie with Alice, why did he appeared before as chain with Lacie?! when was B-Rabbit born as a chain and was created by whom? So wait tecnically, Jack didnt even killed Glen, it was ALL...Oz. OMG, poor Oz, for the first time in PH i feel very sorry for him and i wanna hug him. I guess Jack will take over his body now. Pray for LeoGlen guys... T_T cielleia said: I can't believe Jack would really use all those people for one person that didn't really show him much affection in the end. Then again... who knows about Jack ? At one point I thought he was a total nut. Human heart can be pretty confusing, but i do understand Jack. Lacie is the only form of attachment he ever known and the sole reason of him being alive. So basically the only ones he cared about was her and Alice. Damn, now im starting to feel pity for Glen. I still want to believe Jack liked Glen somehow a bit...and liked Vince a bit too. One thing is certain: Jack wont stop until he gets Lacie back or as he mentioned "her wish". We still dont know what Lacie wished for, but he will certainly not hesitate to make it come true by whatever means necessary. Jeez im mindfucked. cielleia said: He starting pretending because Oswald was no longer "Lacie's Brother" but "Head of the Baskervilles, Glen" as in... Jack believed he no longer cared for Lacie so he abandoned the true friendship. && I agree with that spoiler. That seems most likely, no ? thank you for explaining me;) makes more sense now T_T it seems Jack really abandoned the true friendship otherwise he would at least leave Leo alive, but he is trying to kill him T_T *my heart cries for Jack x Glen* T_T and yes it seems that...well, Oz... T_T oh and did anyone noticed...Gil?! grabbing Glen´s head and then his hand reaching for...a gun! payback time Now that he remembered... it technically means...that he must kill Oz/Jack...(remember when he almost tried to kill Alice? he is compelled to protect his master no matter what, and his true master is Glen/Leo which is in REAL danger now). Oz killed Glen and Jack is about to kill Leo in Oz´s body... and omg, poor Gil, becoming the servant and best friend of your enemy... My mind is going to explode. |
OrulyonFeb 18, 2012 5:53 PM
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
| It makes perfect sense that Oz = B-Rabbit. I mean, I figured that B-Rabbit was independent from both Alice and Lacie considering that Lacie contracted with B-Rabbit as a separate chain, Alice was originally human, and even after supposedly becoming B-Rabbit, the B-Rabbit power was being suspiciously siphoned away from Alice by Oz. It was just a matter of figuring out who/what B-Rabbit was, and this explains why its power was drawn to Oz - very anomalous expression of a chain's power. Also, in retrospect, this explains why Oz has been associated with rabbit symbolism in Jun's art all this time. It's baffled me for so long - why he was depicted as brown rabbits and wearing hats with black rabbit ears. But the rabbit in Alice's dress is supposed to be Oz too? That's... weird... but okay. Others have pointed this out, too, that it was odd how Alice would appear in pictures as herself AND holding the "Alice rabbit" doll. But Oz appears with the "Alice rabbit" doll too. And there's this other light brown rabbit... *brain asplodes* Aaanywhoo... in one flashback about Sablier (this + next page), there's a voiceover of "Stop it. I don't want to kill people!!" which I had assumed was Jack's (since it's being quoted and showing Jack) and had hypothesized was Jack possessed by something urging him to kill people. But, given chapter 70, there's a very good chance it was Oz saying that. Hrm (this could undermine my sense of Jack's conflicted feelings during the tragedy). Jack is also treading on dangerous ground with my liking of him as a character. I had thought that the revelations in chapter 65 had given him depth, expanding him from a squeaky-clean hero to a more morally ambiguous figure who is plagued by genuine internal conflict. I really hope that is still the case. If I find out that his friendship with Glen isn't sincere, that there's no agonizing dilemma there between his loyalties to Glen and to Lacie, and that he's just using Glen (and Alice) to get to Lacie... then, the way I see it, he just traded in a shallow "hero" personality for a shallow "love-obsessed" personality, and didn't really gain complexity as a character. Plus I don't like insincerity... I don't even know if I can call his devotion to Lacie sincere. I sympathize with it and understand how powerful it is and why, I get that he was a shell of a person and she was the only glimpse of light and hope in his life, but it's still primarily an infatuation with a girl he barely knows. Such single-minded obsession is hard for me to respect unless there's a believable foundation for it (ex: Vince's love for Gil). To me, such love is admirable only after it's been tested and perseveres against other heartfelt loyalties. I can respect Jack choosing Lacie over everything else if that was an actual choice he had to think about and make, and not if it was just his default position and everything else be damned. What has me worried is the quote: "[Oswald] doesn’t know anything, doesn’t understand anything. And that’s precisely why, somewhere in his heart, he yearns for somebody to share with. Not with the Baskervilles whom he has to rule over, but with a friend such as myself – he’ll expose his weakness. I will enter from the cracks to look for information on the Abyss." I still have hope for the sincerity of Jack's tears, though. And there's still so much we don't know about what exactly he (and Revis) was trying to do. What really was at stake? I would want to know everything he knew about the Abyss, the experiment, and Lacie's state of existence, as well as the potential consequences of Jack's, Revis' and Oswald's goals, before I know how I feel about it. I anticipate many more riveting twists to come. ^_^ |
Neiru2013Feb 19, 2012 3:12 AM
| Hey guys, where can i find this to read? I just saw the 69 and can't find the 70! ): |
<img src="http://i40.tinypic.com/1j0sk2.jpg" /> |
| I knew it! Oz was from the Abyss. |
| So... if Oz was originally a rabbit doll... is he like the Velveteen Rabbit? :D Buuut Lacie contracted with B-Rabbit before Alice was born and so before Alice got attached to the rabbit doll. So, unless Lacie's B-Rabbit and Alice's B-Rabbit are separate chains, and/or unless there's a time warp sending Alice's B-Rabbit to the past so that Lacie can contract with it, the entity B-Rabbit "Oz" existed before the rabbit doll. Unless, like, Lacie also had that rabbit doll and it was already B-Rabbit back then and... I give up until we know more. XD Aside from having influence over the flow of time, Alyss listed two other powers of the Abyss during Break's flashback: it can turn humans into chains, and it can grant will to those without life. Is Oz a result of the latter? Did Alice, a being with intimate access to the Core, pour so much love and attention into the rabbit doll who (in addition to Cheshire) kept her company during her lonely days in the tower that it gained a will of its own? It's not that much different from the animate dolls that live in Alyss' room in the Abyss. The "Alice doll" might share its symbolism between Alice and Oz now... but there's just so, so many rabbit dolls around... black ones, brown ones, light brown, white, etc. Alyss has many white rabbit dolls, but seems to prefer expressing herself only through one. Could the same be true of the black rabbits? Is only one of them Oz and/or Alice and the rest something else? And, if so, could there be multiple Black Rabbits, which would account for Lacie's B-Rabbit chain predating Alice and Oz? @Hooked: the low quality raws and text translation of chapter 70 are up on the Pandora Hearts LiveJournal community, but you need to be a member to see them. Otherwise the scanlators will release the chapter in a few days. |
| Well anybody from here read the Alice novel, to know more about PH? Because I didn't°_°" I was wondered, what I knew from the film/cartoon/manga/etc, that a lot of people could be associated with the real story, and a lot of happening. So I was wondered that who is the nother rabbit, and Oz is now going to be vanish in the end...:S Jack=watchmaker Vincent=watchmaker's servant the headhunter, and the queen's headhunter(I think this was associated with Miranda, just not for Vincent, but Jack) Oz= the main rabbit Alice=Alice Gil&Vincent kids=twins Glen= could be the king but I'm not sure Gil=??? Miranda=Queen Duke Barma=that smoking thing Ok I know some roles are changed and mixed, but some of this can be recognized, but there are some who I couldn't, like who is the nother rabbit^^" And the tiny-big thing was too in the manga in the end XD Hmm I was thinking about this too but, is it possible that Lacie is going to be return? |
| I think if it was Vincent it wouldnt be a troll, and we know Jun loves to troll us. I believe that Vince did hate Alice and even killed Cheshire, but for sure he didnt kill her, c´mon, it must have been B-Rabbit who killed her, and B-Rabbit is probably Oz. In chapter 20, Oz says in a berserk moment that "he will destroy Alice", so it makes sense. But then, again, didnt Alice died murdered by scissors? if it was B-rabbit, it doesnt make sense to use scissors... I thought Jack could have killed her, but then, if it was Jack, then why did he got so mad with Glen in the flashback and yelled "You want to use Alice?!". I believe if there is anything genuine in Jack´s heart its only two simple things: Lacie and Alice( simply for being Lacie´s daughter, its enough). I dont think it was Jack even if he doesnt give a shit about others. but iam certainly curious how B-Rabbit became Jack´s chain...for that i do have a hint on chapter 20 , cielleia said: if Alice's soul is still chained to B-Rabbit's power.. she'll definitely die if Gil kills Oz because he is B-Rabbit himself. D: |
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
| Yeah, I think Oz would kill Alice if he thought she wanted him to and if it would make her happy. Of course, we also don't know if he actually did. We also don't know if Alice would die if Oz does. I mean, prior to her fading in 65, I would never imagine that her personal existence would be affected by the loss of B-Rabbit power. I mean, she's existed perfectly fine on her own before, so I don't see how being separated from that power would do anything except turn her human again. But yeah, her fading is troubling... we still don't know why that's happening, though, or where she's going. The same question can be asked of Alyss, though. She doesn't want to be Will of the Abyss anymore... does that mean she'll die if she stops being WotA? does she want to die? I think there must be a way to separate both Alice and Alyss from the powers that got attached to them, and just have them be human. |
cielleia said: But Alice also has a twin sister and Zwei (Noise) has another personality that shares her body called Echo which could also symbolize twins. Their Chain is called Doldum in reference to the Tweedle twins. Also, when Gilbert brought out Raven they ran off. Tweedledee and Tweedledum ran away from the giant Crow in the story and never got to start their battle over the brand new rattle. Ok because English is not my mother language, and I didn't read the Alice novel this was a new thing for me. cielleia said: Also I thought. Jack = Lewis Carrol, as he loved kids just like Jack does. That was the writer of the real story, right? cielleia said: Oz = White Rabbit (that's it's name) Glen = The Red King because it would make sense in that Miranda loves him (his head I should say) and wants his head. If she is counted as the Red Queen, which connects her to the Chain also known as The Queen of Hearts. It would make sense because all three, Red Queen/Hearts, Miranda and the Chain all loved heads. Duke Barma = The Caterpillar, knowledgeable in every subject. Echo&Noise aka Zwei = Tweedle Twins Who is the watchmaker you mentioned for Jack? & There's only one rabbit but there is a March Hare which is similar to a rabbit. These are usefull stuffs, thx^^ The watchmaker probably my mistake, because there was an Alice manga where a watchmaker was a main charachter, or could be said it was a shinigami thing, and I thought that the real Alice story has something similar too, but I was wrong^^" cielleia said: So far, still not sure about Lacie's return although I don't think she'll come back but rather help Jack move on. Why? I dunno. Well Lacie had some stuffs in her mind I think... |
| About Oz killing Alice. I also think he did as it was pretty much openly said earlier. Here and on the next page. Yura was trying to recreate the tragedy of Sablier and it was so similar that Vincent had a flashback earlier, then read what Oz is thinking on those pages. At first I thought those were Jack's memories, but then all the other chapters came out. As for Vincent, that would be way too obvious. The scissors were bloody because he killed her cat, but technically he could have just left them there(he didn't have them in the Abyss). Not to mention that it's pretty hard to kill someone with scissors. |
deadoptimist said: Though I think shit-flinging should also have standards - no personal, no behind the scenes. |
| Wtf did I just read? ^is my reaction. This manga will never cease to amaze me profoundly. |
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| My mind is so blown right now, O_O the whole entire chapter; sorry ahead of time if these sound like dumb questions, so if Oz is the B Rabbit that makes him a chain from the abyss right? then how the does the whole connection between him and Alice work, or the seal for that matter. I'm so lost right now, Also if that body doesn't belong to Oz then how is he inside of it, so many questions XD. |
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| Haaah, Jun...Stop breaking my mind every chapter, my mind can't take it anymore! Dx So many things that's going on, so many twists here and there... I want to read more! D8 |
| OH SH*T |
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Maffy said: Wtf did I just read? ^is my reaction. This manga will never cease to amaze me profoundly. This is how I feel. |
| Chains don't have to be that much different from humans. Many chains used to be humans. The Baskervilles are more chain that human, and they're perfectly capable of forming contracts with other chains. And, on top of this, Oz is in a human body - not his own, but in Jack's "container" - so I don't see why it's so strange that the body could make a contract. It's more of a contract between Jack and B-Rabbit than between Oz and himself. Of course, there's still something strange about this body, since its blood tastes different from that of a human. But, even so, we're back to the fact that Baskervilles form contracts all the time. |
Shion97 said: Maffy said: Wtf did I just read? ^is my reaction. This manga will never cease to amaze me profoundly. This is how I feel. same here. |
| I can't believe Mochizuki-sensei mindfucked us. Again. Oz... is B-Rabbit... Like Neiru2012 said, it does make sense with the theories that had been running around my head... I just never expected it. And Jack. I'm beginning to like him less, but I still don't know. He does lie in this chapter, absolutely lie, when he says he doesn't know about Alice to Glen. Everything else he says throughout the chapter were half truths, and maybe that can be construed as a truth in some way- I don't know. I do think he cared about Oswald, but he feels that Oswald has become Glen and abandoned himself. While it is possible that Oz/B-Rabbit killed Alice, I still see no absolute evidence. The scissors we saw still could mean something, and definitely hints that Vince was up there at some point. However, the part that @Wapplesieat mentioned was a very good point. At the beginning, in Oz's "Dream", he sees Alice, in what might be the dress she wears during the Tragedy of Sablier. However, when he angers this Alice, she changes into her B-Rabbit clothes and threatens to slowly torture and kill Oz. I'm not sure what this means yet.. The idea that is floating around right now is that Oz did kill her, and that Alice/B-Rabbit represents himself, his own self-hatred at having killed the one he loved most. (Similar to Vincent's "A wretch I want to kill one of these days" comment to me~) But what happened to the original Oz Vessalius? Oscar told Break that Zai took the baby away, and Break theorizes that the baby was exchanged with another. I had a theory that maybe they merged B-Rabbit Oz with the baby Vessalius (after all, he still looks like a Vessalius), but not so much when I remembered the whole 'body remembers' spiel. Plus, Oz says himself he's an odd contractor. His seal is always visible, but unlike Break's, it is not fully completed, and it doesn't have the same effect on his body. Maybe, like it keeps telling us the Abyss can, the Abyss rewound Jack's body and spit him back out? (I'll find a reference later) So I'm really unsure about what happened to Zai's son, though I guess it could be Vince. Since Gil and he aren't twins, it's plausible, and maybe that is part of why his mother threw him out. (And the masquerade mask here is interesting...) Also doesn't Zai look a little like this guy who is tailing Jack in a memory? Just sayin'... |
ToshiMonsterFeb 26, 2012 8:27 PM
| Too much mind fuck. Cannot comprehend. I'm going to have to reread the beginning of this arc since only one chapter comes out each month and I tend to forget things during each month. |
| what a shocking chapter....many people guessed Oz is a chain...but I never thought he would be B-Rabbit!! i wonder what will happen to him or what will Alice think of him from now on~ Can't wait! |
| Daw, somebody else already noticed... anyways, the dress Alice was wearing when she was shown dead (http://www.mangareader.net/350-24649-3/pandora-hearts/chapter-20.html), was the same one in Oz's flashback fun in 59 (http://www.mangareader.net/pandora-hearts/59/11) meaning that it's very proable that Oz killed Alice. Also, while Vincent possibly being Zai's son may be interesting, the doctor's saying something is "wrong" could also mean that he may've been stillborn (or something), right? (I think that might make sense...) ...Another thing, "Oz" would probably be derived from "The Wonderful Wizard of Oz" right? And, correct me if I'm mistaken, didn't the wizard come from a foreign land (or something)? (Suddenly Oz's name makes that much more sense... >_>") Ah, on the whole "Alice fading" thing, I know that she's probably somehow connected to the B-Rabbit's power and all that, but I'm still not sure exactly how... (Does she solely exist because of them? Are they only responsile for her material form? Is she able to still coexist with Alyss without them? Who exactly set this up? (Yay, food for thought (with no answers.) ...Oz's life really sucks in this chapter. XD |
| Holy Crap! JACK!!!! I was you absolute most loyal fan and NOW NOW I'm doubting you... I can't believe...sigh.... Vincent can't be Zai's son because how then would he be alive 100 years ago? I would say that Zai was there then too, but I would think Oscar would know if his little brother was someone coming from the past. Unless Oscar is really as crazy as the rest of the cast...): Sigh...I am kind of actually terrified how it will all end...the other day I was dreaming theories and I actually came up with an ending that made me feel sick. I wonder if Breaks Red eyes are going to bring more meaning? Or also if there is some importance to Gil & Vinces real mother? Whatever my predictions tend to be wrong.... I hope Jack has a hearts, and I hope Oz didn't kill Alice...maybe Miranda did? As revenge? ALSO! Oscar, Oz, Ada and Zai...I have to add the first three are common Victorian era names whilst Zai is not. |
| Aw, man. My head just exploded. :-o. Poor Oz. Best manga ever. Damn jack, I am so annoyed with you right now! |
iciclepop said: Shion97 said: Maffy said: Wtf did I just read? ^is my reaction. This manga will never cease to amaze me profoundly. This is how I feel. same here. I definitely agree... I'm still pretty speechless but this was such an amazing chapter! It answered many questions while raising a bunch of other ones at the same time... I can't wait for the next chapter! I hope that Jack somehow redeems himself in the coming chapters. :( He used to be one of my favorite characters, so seeing this twisted side of him emerge is quite saddening! |
| shit hit the fan^^ |
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