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Repeating what was said in the film - that the building wasn't perfect originally - doesn't truly the answer the question. When no other 'puppet' managed to get away and (from what was shown when Shiki and Enjou used the key to go into the 'copy' apartment) the 'puppets' had no will of their own, why was it that the copy of Enjou alone managed to break free?



I don't see how using the villains of movies one and three helped Araya. At all. They certainly didn't weaken Shiki any. Hell, I don't see how he even thought them using supernatural powers would connect them to Shiki - it was only by chance Shiki got involved; firstly because of Kokuto getting his 'soul' taken and secondly because Touka received a job request.

Araya explains later in the movie, after randomly mentioning the previous viillains, that he used them to distract the 'counter-force' - the will of the world itself, which tries to survive against all threats. Again, I don't see how Shiki fighting them did anything for him while he was getting on with his apartment complex project - what he and she were doing at the time were totally separate, and Shiki's fights weren't fought to reach the origin of all and destroy the world, meaning the 'counter'-force' wouldn't have needed to react.



Here you missed what I asked. I asked why Shiki helped Enjou; not why she let him live with her.

In the previous films, Shiki wasn't shown to be the caring sort who would help a stranger in need. For her to jump in and help a random high school aged kid, who was being cased by three other kids, struck me as being out of character. Her reason of wanting to give him back the key he dropped seemed very, very weak.

Shiki's blood makes her want to murder people. In her past, she smiled at dead corpses, using their blood for lipstick. Yes, she changed to a certain extent after she developed a third, more complete personality... but there still hadn't been anything to suggest she'd turned into a goody-goody.

At first I also thought her allowing Enjou to stay with her was strange, but it made sense once she explained how she hadn't been seeing Kokuto: she had been lonely and needed company. For an almost anti-social person like herself, it still didn't quite fit, but I accepted that loneliness drove her towards Enjou. (I still thought it was off when she leaned over her bed, looking down at Enjou and playfully smiled, though.)



I can understand seeing the structure of things = seeing the origin of all things. However, I cannot see what Araya could hope to achieve by taking over Shiki's body. Sure, he'd have been able to see the lines of death, but I fail to see how seeing those lines could allow him to reach the 'origin of all' he seeked. That part of his masterplan was never revealed.

Then again, I can't see how he hoped to open a 'door' by having people die over and over. What, was a magical door supposed to appear if he allowed his puppets to die enough? I don't see his logic.

With the film focusing on him trying to get Shiki, his plans were never explained well, with every detail being vague. All we know is that he wanted to reach the origin of the world, using a apartment complex of death and the body of one who can see the lines of death. Beyond that...



...Ah, I remember Araya saying this now that you've mentioned it.

If he removed Shiki's brain, he wouldn't have kept Shiki's powers. Going on Touka's explanation in the fourth movie, the ability is nothing to do with the eyes; it's something gained from facing death, meaning an experience is required for it to activate. This would suggest the brain allows for a person to see the lines; that something becomes unlocked when a person faces the grim repear and lives on.

It would've been more logical if he'd said, "I'm planning on putting my soul into Shiki's body."



Or, put better, it needed enough time for the 'heroes' to gather to prevent Araya from doing the deed. No explanation was put forward for why Araya didn't just, you know, take over her body. I assumed during their first encounter, when he put his hand on Shiki's face, he was going to transfer himself over there and then.

Touka had little issue transfering into another body; it was instant when the 'switch' in her original body allowed it.



Like the final, where Shiki suddenly 'powered-up' by holding a sword, Araya commenting that she'd become much stronger all of sudden - deus ex machina. That's the only explanation for Shiki first stabbing Araya multiple times, even in the neck, and not killing him and then, later, getting the better of him 'inside himself.' As ever with main characters, she was allowed to win rather than it being down to any logic.

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I like the film. A lot. But I think it's very flawed; more so than its ranking would suggest. The closer you look, the more issues there are. It's fantastic to watch first time - the sort of film I'd walk out of a cinema feeling like I was walking on clouds after seeing - but when I sat down and re-watched it, I realized the excellent direction masked a simple film with with plot holes and a deus ex machina finale. When I re-watched it, I actually enjoyed the, straight-forward, ShikixEnjou section over the mindfuck sections.

For me, the third KnK is the best, closely followed by the fifth.

One last thing: someone mentioned Enjou sitting on the bench next to Kokuto not fitting. It did. Enjou had his hood up and was waiting for news. Kokuto had just got back from driving school and, by chance, was waiting for Touka to pick him up. It was a coincidence.

I didn't notice. You are probably right.



I don't know if this is the right answer but during the first minutes of the movie we can see Enjou killing his parents. It is surely a trick played by his mind, which is under the control of Araya. Probably Araya did planned Enjou to escape by manipulating his mind. Really there are infinite possible speculations.



Well, the villains are connected to Shiki because of Kokutou. Remember, the girl in the first movie saw Kokutou everyday when he was going to take care of Shiki and she wanted to be 'saved' by Kokutou too, while Fujino had been helped by Kokutou when she hurt her leg during Middle school and she also went to the same schools of Kokutou's sister, Azaka.

Also, in episode three Shiki said to Fujino they are birds of the same feather. This will be clear in episode seven i think, but i speculate they are linked together.

Araya probably knew all this things.



Shiki is the counter force because of her special eyes.

At first Araya thought he could reach the origin thank to the complex project alone, so he sent the villains to distract her...or maybe to test her ability before fighting her, knowing his complex project was a total failure.



I suck at philosophy, but i would say if you knew what death really is, what is her meaning, why we have to live and die, you would discover what is the meaning of this life, the meaning of the struggle and joy we have to experience as human being. The KnK movie was probably simplistic and concretised all this into a thing, the spiral. Maybe we can call the spiral with the name of God (It's not my intention to offend anyone). It's very harsh to say but God is the meaning of death. Nordic cults thought that dying while fighting led them to the Valhalla next to Odin waiting for the Ragnarok (the final battle against the darkness). Catholics think that death is the means to meet God and live an (after) life full of joy and peace. Atheists think that there's nothing after death, so there's no God. And so on.

Shiki said that she knows what death is and so she can control death. Shiki also said she could be able to kill the God of Universe because of her eyes. What do you think would happen if the God of Universe is killed? The meaning of life? The whole Universe would be destroyed and so the world. So the intention of Araya to obtain Shiki's power.

However, I would say this series was not made to fit the logic of our world. So it is impossible to understand all the madness which is going on during 2 hours of good animation. When you watch this anime you should care about characters developement rather then the whole story, which is important too. Also, it has some plot holes since an episode is still left, and i think it will be the most important.

We have also to remember minor translation flaws could have been committed.

I'm sorry if i have missed something you asked. For me it's pretty hard writing a coerent text. I'm italian and i have not many chances to write/speak english.

However, it's always a pleasure reading and writing on this thread. I'm looking forward to your (and everybody) answers/questions since you have filled some of my plot holes too (and i hope i have filled some of yours! :3)

Hanock

Damn it, I used the wrong word. And also forgot what happened in the movie to state such a thing. Heh. My bad. But it does make sense.

Shiki was always stronger then Araya, at least in fighting ability. If you watch the first fight again, it becomes obvious that Araya surprised her with every move, she could never take the lead. Also remember that Shiki couldn't recognize Araya's lines at their first fight, not allowing her to use her ability as it's meant too be used (a normal stab in the neck isn't fatal too a magus of Araya's caliber). Perhaps after spending time inside "him", she was able to understand his nature enabling her to wake up, see his lines, and overcome the advantage he had with his magic. Or perhaps she sensed the conflict inside the apartment which woke her up and allowed her to break the barrier, which she technically always had the ability too break. Or perhaps Even Touko herself had a hand in waking her in which she broke the barrier, which she technically always had the ability too break. Or it could even be a combination of all three of those. Since it isn't explained very well it's mostly left up to speculation of the viewer. Looking at Shiki's character though, she didn't gain any new powers at that time and perhaps she mostly trained with a katana, surpassing her fighting ability with a knife (she was apparently training with a katana frequently with her family as was seen in a previous move).

There is alot of logic too it unlike what you may think. But it all comes down too logic of the world they are in. That may seem far fetched, but it makes more sense in relation too Type-Moons original works. (fate/Stay Night covers the door too the origin and a very detailed extent of magi in general, and Tsukihime covers almost everything about the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception and the main assassin families, Ryougi being one of them)

Calling it a "Deus Ex Machina" is more of an insult to the writer then you might think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina
Perhaps most of your "plot holes" were cleared up in the novel. Or perhaps as a big Type-Moon fan having gone through the original works (not very far in the novel) i understand more of the key points better. But I don't see any plot holes besides what might appear from bad quality checking of the animators.

To be fair, I'd say it's a little unfair to bring up things you speculate as sketchy as plot holes or bringing up terms like that without reading the original novel.

I have an issue with this. The novel is the novel, and the adaption is the adaption. They are different works of art and should be judged seperately - Fight Club the book doesn't get better because the movie is damn good, nor does Umineko the anime get better just because the SN is genial. If something isn't in the movie, you can't point at the supposed source material and go "it explaineth and it absolveth".

Not that the original critique seems to me very justified. Just, this kind of argument is hollow.


a) wait for it
b) It's a hypothesis. Other ways have failed, maybe this one will lead somewhere - after all, everything can die, so it seems easy to conclude this universality has some origin within the Origin.

This is very true, and i can agree on most levels. But I am (at least trying) not talking about the worth of either the anime or light novel in comparison too each other. I am talking about the plot scenario which is consistent in both the novel and the anime. Maybe it was a little rash too suggest reading the novel before it be fair too say this or that about the plot, but i myself do take somewhat issue too hash criticism of the plot when the assumption is made that there are plot holes everywhere and worse being the bringing up of "Deus Ex Machina" of being the solution of the final fight.

Though in all fairness. This has been a discussion on the plot, and the only reason i brought up the novel was because the difference of presentation might reveal more key details then an anime watcher who has no knowledge of any of it would get from the anime. I would retract my very last sentence, but i do still hold too the ones before that.

I guess i will call fault on myself for that.

"I was here."

Still gets to me.

I'd want these to be my last words.

To go out knowing that I existed and had some kind of impact in this world.

Good installment, but like someone else said after re-watching it the most enjoyable scenes are the simple ShikixEnjou. I guess without the mindfuck stuff it wouldn't be the same, so I feel that it is essential for them to be there, plot holes or not.


Oh, and definitely great final words from Enjou.

Same here.

Considering KnK is a movie series, I would judge it less "heavy" comparing a TV series. 7/10 from me, just because the art and sound was awesome. If it was a TV series, no more than a 5/10.

That was AWESOME! I loved how everything came together at the end, and how the presented all these abstract symbols that actually managed an effective connection to the audience, like the key. It wasn't overly depressing or sad, and didn't entirely rely on emotion to impress; it actually managed to give us an intellectual understanding to back everything, which made it so much more enjoyable. It wasn't perfect, but I don't feel right giving it lower than 10.

Shiki waking up to wake up would be Deus Ex Machina but I think Tomoe's presence i.e. his death and bringing the sword is what woke her up despite all the tough girl talk she adds. The sword power up angle makes sense. It's a deadlier weapon and we know its something she's trained with.

The Eyes and Spiral are just the rules of this world. The eyes are connected to this spiral which is the backbone of the world this story. The counterforce is something that exists to protect said spiral. Don't try to think too deeply about what these things are and just accept them. They're akin to natural forces like gravity(something that we still don't quite understand in full). Though I've read in a blog analysis that Tomoe may have been the vehicle in which the counterforce acted hence him being the only one who escaped and screwed up the big bad's plans. It makes sense considering he was trying so hard to avoid it to the point where he was using tech vs magic,.

I'm not exactly sure what the villain wanted something about destruction of death by eliminating life. He explained it but it came off as badly worded philosophy i.e. something simple dressed up to look pretentious.

The non linear thing has been there from the start. After all the first movie already dumps in with the trio already knowing each other and what not while the 2nd one jumps back in time and all about. The presentation of this series has always erred on the side of arthouse. It provides a new spin on the small team of supernatural slayers on a limited budget

Aozaki's little rules about the monsters in horror movies had me laughing. It's the truth people! Never showing the monster makes things really scary! She's by far my favorite character

Question: At an 1:00 and 19 Aozaki says something along the lines of heroes appearing during various eras,etc was this a reference to Fate/Stay night? I've been told that FSN, Tsukihime and Kara all take place within the same universe.

Does anyone know what Araya meant when he said "We finally meet, Ryougi!". He mention how she was holding back and that self-suggestion brought forth power when she held the sword. Does this mean the other Shiki (Masculine) is back?

I can clearly say, that this is the best anime movie I have ever seen...
No comments...

The male personality is dead.

That's a pretty misleading way of putting it. She has the power to change herself, but the result isn't another personality, although it is a new Shiki in a way. It's still the same consciousness. "We finally meet" shouldn't be taken too literally.

Actually, it is indeed our Shiki who's fighting Araya there. But,

Everything would be clear in the epilogue.

I may have a theory as to why Shiki decided to help Tomoe.

Perhaps she sees him, a false existence, existing.
The same way her brother Shiki resides within herself.

I remember hearing Aozaki mention something about Shiki(female) wanting to honor her brother's existence by acting the way she does.
-It was a conversation in the office between Aozaki and Mikiya.

Although I feel I'm not alone when I say I was confused at parts of the movie, I think it was so...awesome. Luckily, I was able to grasp most of the plot and understand some parts I had not by the end of the movie. The action scenes were sick (loved the bit with Touko) and although I am still confused about some parts of the movie, I think it was a great movie overall. I'll probably watch it again some time to see if I can get a better hold of everything that was going on....hopefully. Anyway, yeah, despite the confusing parts of the movie I loved it and can't wait to watch the next.