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Shakugan no Shana III (Final) Episode 14 Discussion
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View Poll Results: Shakugan no Shana III (Final) Episode 14 Discussion
5 out of 5: Loved it!
 
91 68.94%
4 out of 5: Liked it
 
22 16.67%
3 out of 5: It was OK
 
11 8.33%
2 out of 5: Disliked it
 
2 1.52%
1 out of 5: Hated it
 
6 4.55%
Voters: 132

02-11-12, 7:02 PM

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I approve of the new OP. It is much more SnS-like. Previous OP was pretty lame and I was losing hope for the show to even have a decent opening if nothing else.

It took 14 episodes for Yuji to explain what he was doing, when he could have done it from the beginning in about 20 seconds. Such a super solid story right there, no flaws at all.
 
02-23-12, 2:01 AM

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I was quite amazed with this episode, finally some development after the boring fight the last eps. I have a lag with this show, so I'm continuing immediately.

5layer said:
I approve of the new OP. It is much more SnS-like. Previous OP was pretty lame and I was losing hope for the show to even have a decent opening if nothing else.

It took 14 episodes for Yuji to explain what he was doing, when he could have done it from the beginning in about 20 seconds. Such a super solid story right there, no flaws at all.

Completely agreed, even though last opening was nice, it didn't really fit SnS.

And it took much too long to explain just those little things, it got kind of boring at some parts. I'm glad they finally moved on to a new part.
Modified by Ovindel, 02-23-12, 2:08 AM
 
02-24-12, 9:30 PM

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yeah, sorry I'm still with the bad guys here. the Flame Haze are idiots and unlikeable. Yuji and the God of Creating gave a nice speech, why not have him create his new peaceful world? the flame haze just seem like bitter crybabies with their annoying grandma nun.

anyway GO BAD GUYS! GO YUJI, AND AWESOME SNAKE GOD!
 
03-20-12, 10:11 PM

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Man Yuji is a fkin genius when it comes down to breaking down people mentally. xD
 
03-25-12, 9:07 PM

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Nice new OP song.

 
03-26-12, 8:08 PM

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Maybe this is the whole point of the series, that the bad guys actually turn out to be the good guys. I mean, they seemed to have nefarious aims in the first two seasons, but at the same time they need to eat humans to survive, right? If they're going into a new world and leaving humans alone, then continuing to fight them is like animal rights activists attacking vegetarians.

On the other hand, can we really believe this God? He says he's perfected his technique, so I presume it was too risky to try beforehand. Is it just boastful hubris and he really is still going to put the world at risk?? More importantly, is there any way for the flame hazes to know if they can trust him?

It would be interesting if this show that was shallow for the first two seasons all of a sudden turned into a more ambiguous show that challenges our notions of good and evil. It's perhaps too much to hope for, but it would be pretty cool if they went that route.
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04-01-12, 1:35 PM

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I fail to see why Yuji has yet to stop the fighting on both sides rather then just the flame hazes. It also feels like they are just dragging the show out to put in maybe a few more plot twists when they could have easily and justifiably ended it with Yuji's plan. Or hell at east the leaders from both sides could talk about it? Why can't the nun just tell them why it wouldn't work if she thinks it wont.

I'm not feeling this season as much as the last 2.

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04-06-12, 9:56 AM

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That's it, I'm dropping this crap.

Retarded fight scenes out of naruto.
Crappy realizations during battles.
Commanders pondering whether to retreat or not for hours when their forces are slaughtered.
Gay speeches.
Beings that are hundreds of years old act like immature teenagers.
Scenes that could have looked cooler if they were done better. But they weren't, so they suck.
Crappy CG snake.
And more.
 
04-08-12, 9:29 AM

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Why is with all SnS seasons that the first op is always better? :/

About the season being worse than the others. I disagree. Shana's reason to don't like Yuji's ambition may be a bit pointless, but believe me, when someone like the Sairei no Hebi and Bal Masque with all their previous evil schemes are trying propose such a genuinely good plan then there surely must be some ulterior motives behind it.
I also really like the fight scenes in this season, Shana is also becoming more awesome by each episode. And thank god there wasn't any love-triangle/love-square (Konoe). The lack of slice of life bits actually fits the season more as it is the conclusion of the story where battles should be in the foreground.
 
05-07-12, 6:47 PM

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If what Yuji said is true, then the flame hazes are actually the bad guys.

Also, this show is getting worst and worst for me. I don't know why but I don't feel like watching t anymore... Damn, can't stop here though :S
 
05-11-12, 7:58 AM

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Tsh, I swear they will try to justify the injustice of Yuji's dream by saying, oh look, if you create Xanadu then this world will be unstable, balance distorted, etc.

Damn it all, I gotta say, the plot is actually kind of original. That doesn't mean it's good though.

I gotta say, this third season have put the fans at their place. The lack of slice of life could also be a problem for many. In terms of plot, I can't decide who to root for. There clearly isn't a line between good and evil now. This in a way can put off many fans. Before we see that the Tomogara as strictly soulless monsters snatching human's existence. At face value the Tomogara sounds horrible, looks horrible, and do horrible things. But now, Yuji's plan to create a suitable world for Tomogara puts them directly at a crossroad. I can see why the Flame Hazes are going batshit crazy seeing as their existence are now directly being questioned - especially for a group of people that "sold" their past existence to protect other's existence. And the fact that they lived for hundreds of years without having to question their core existence could easily make their mind fugged.

On the one hand, in Xanadu Tomogara will still be snatching existence, just that Yuji apparently will create an infinite amount of it (sounds sketchy imo), on the other the current world will be free of Tomogara snatching existences.

At episode 14 after so much details have passed by, we're still left with so many questions. Questions I don't really know exactly what they are. It just feel, after half the season has gone by, there's still a cloud of confusion - not mystery in a good sense. It feels some details should've been mentioned before goals and motaivations are established. This air of confusion indicate two things: Either the fans are not paying enough attention - and this is true to an extent because it seems many just wanted a school slice of life with some supernatural attached to it, while the other concern is that the plot is legitimately confusing because of some details left out of the story that justify character goals, actions, and what not.

And reading some of the thread, I still don't see why the Tomogara should continue to kill Flame Haze. I get that they're just doing it because it's true there will be stubborn Flame Hazes that will always oppose Yuji, but on the other hand their ongoing slaughter kind of FUEL that opposition that much stronger to resist them. It feels like a negotiation is impossible just because the series have established itself to be an action series with DBZ aura powerups. The only negotiation we've seen was with Shana and Yuji, and Shana's ideals sounds utterly pathetic compared to Yuji's.

Ah well, gotta keep watching.
Modified by Tachii, 05-11-12, 8:10 AM
 
05-15-12, 9:16 PM
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gawd so many long posts in this thread. Snake dude's plan sure sounds like a good idea, but so far we've only been told of the idea and not of the process or any side effects. There's no proof that the world will remain the same after being copied, only Snake dude believes (or is making people believe) this will work without any problems. The Flame Hazes on the other hand have nothing so far, but their will to fight. Or what's left of it....

I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes. FINALLY the series has something interesting to offer. Took long enough! This certainly has made me care more about finishing it, tho I'm not even sure what about Shana has made me watch all the season lol

Also have to say, Snake dude's speech at the end was quite awesome. Dat Hayami Show~~
 
05-24-12, 7:16 PM

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Am I the only one thinking the plan sounds way too convenient, clean and happy-endingish to be true? Yuji is obviously lying.

(Since the anime is already completed, people with sufficient knowledge might or might not laugh at me at this point, but whatever.)
 
06-07-12, 8:58 AM

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I read on another forum where people questioned why some fans of the show were actually rooting for the Bal Masque are as most refer to them ... "the bad guys".
Well, first of all I'd like to say that I have almost always cheered for the "villains" in cartoons. The good guys are just too... I dunno? fated to win? Even in shows/comics where the good guys don't win we as viewers are left with feeling that the author was saying it is a downer ending. That is bad I think... why should it be a downer ending just because the "good guys" lose?

Now, more specifically for this show Shagukan no Shana... first of all the whole thing about Flame Haze's always disgusted me. Sure enough they protect humans from these other Crimson Denizens (who basically only see us as food/raw material) but if you look at it from a strictly impartial point of view... who the hell gave the Flame haze the right to murder Crimzon Denizens? To make a comparison it would be kind of like vegetarians suddenly starting to kill meat eaters because we eat meat... or say "treehuggers" starting to go ballistic on people that chop down trees to get firewood.
The concept is just ridiculous. Why should we humans be put above the food chain and not be a source of nutrition? ...and of course then there are the main "heroes" themselves.

Shana must be one of the single most loathsome main characters I've ever come across. Her lolidom seems forced and her tsundere ways don't add anything... but it is her almost complete lack of empathy that is the worst. She is JUST a tool. The name she took for herself was Shana and if I recall correctly that meant blade or something similar?

In the first season almost all of her first enemy Crimson Denizens all fought for heir love but she just fought to "kill" them because that was the only thing she did. She didn't really care at first at all about people other than that her protecting them was her job. So from a certain point of view Shana was just a murderous monster while her first enemies sacrificed their lives for their love.

Now in the final season Shana still hasn't fully figured out what "love" is, and worse still seem unable to empathize with all other living beings. She hunt the Bal Masque and their Rinne because that is her job... but the Bal Masque are seen as "bad" because they hunt humans. But look at those Rinne that were put there to protect and serve Shana? Sure they had bee put there by Yuji but did that really make them bad? Even when Shana started crawling away one of the hurt Rinne tried to stop her because Yuji wanted to save Shana from being a tool. Shana didn't understand and just murders the Rinne that was trying to help her... never caring a bit that she just killed somebody just because they were holding her leg.

I’d love to go into further detail trashing these ”good guys”, how they take cheap shots and finish of their enemies when the opponent is rendered unable to fight back due to 3rd party circumstances... I mean in war this is the smart thing to do, but what does it really teach us when the only ones that do this are the heroes? I can’t recall a single time in any of seasons when any of the ”bad guys” killed off their enemy using a cheap shot or even tried to.

Okay, so what is this evil plan that the bad guys have ben working towards all this time? The thing that the Flame Haze are doing their best to stop?
It’s creating a third world where all the Crimson Denizens can live and be happy so they never will bother the human world EVER again. Holy crap! As the heroes we MUST stop this plan at all cost because if we don’t then... we as Flame Haze lose our purpose as tools!!! OMG!!

So yeah... the Flame Haze, the ”good guys” basically are against stopping the killing of Crimson Denizens and eating of humans because if they do then they would be out of work. So Yuji told this to the Flame haze and all the non important ”good guys” go crazy having lost their purpose (lolwut?) And in come the Crimson Denizens to continue their assault on this dangerous band of murderous Flame Hazes... good riddance I say. If they can’t be happy that they no longer have an enemy to kill, then they are just trash!
Modified by Yavie, 06-07-12, 9:09 AM
 
06-20-12, 6:56 PM

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New opening as the 2nd act of season 3 begins, the flame haze have lost all will to fight, so thier for they are retreating. I never thought i would say this but im actually rooting for the aposite side lol as apposed to the flame hazes ideal's yuji's ideal makes alot more sence.

so thats his true ambition to create a replica world with an infinite ammount of existence, thier for no one will ever have to suffer dying or turning into torches any more. The way of the yuji's existence and the world he encountered since the first episode of the series, now i can see why he wants to side with the god of creation in achieving this ambition. But that can also be a bad thing in the long run, since the world has a infinite ammount of existence, their may be another alternate motive that the serpent of ritual the god of creation is trying to achieve as well, who knows, he is the main antagonist after all.
Modified by link9us, 06-20-12, 7:00 PM
It is absolutely a sin to be an anime fan and not at least experience "Akira" once in your life time.

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06-20-12, 7:14 PM

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Tachii said:
Tsh, I swear they will try to justify the injustice of Yuji's dream by saying, oh look, if you create Xanadu then this world will be unstable, balance distorted, etc.

Damn it all, I gotta say, the plot is actually kind of original. That doesn't mean it's good though.

I gotta say, this third season have put the fans at their place. The lack of slice of life could also be a problem for many. In terms of plot, I can't decide who to root for. There clearly isn't a line between good and evil now. This in a way can put off many fans. Before we see that the Tomogara as strictly soulless monsters snatching human's existence. At face value the Tomogara sounds horrible, looks horrible, and do horrible things. But now, Yuji's plan to create a suitable world for Tomogara puts them directly at a crossroad. I can see why the Flame Hazes are going batshit crazy seeing as their existence are now directly being questioned - especially for a group of people that "sold" their past existence to protect other's existence. And the fact that they lived for hundreds of years without having to question their core existence could easily make their mind fugged.

On the one hand, in Xanadu Tomogara will still be snatching existence, just that Yuji apparently will create an infinite amount of it (sounds sketchy imo), on the other the current world will be free of Tomogara snatching existences.

At episode 14 after so much details have passed by, we're still left with so many questions. Questions I don't really know exactly what they are. It just feel, after half the season has gone by, there's still a cloud of confusion - not mystery in a good sense. It feels some details should've been mentioned before goals and motaivations are established. This air of confusion indicate two things: Either the fans are not paying enough attention - and this is true to an extent because it seems many just wanted a school slice of life with some supernatural attached to it, while the other concern is that the plot is legitimately confusing because of some details left out of the story that justify character goals, actions, and what not.

And reading some of the thread, I still don't see why the Tomogara should continue to kill Flame Haze. I get that they're just doing it because it's true there will be stubborn Flame Hazes that will always oppose Yuji, but on the other hand their ongoing slaughter kind of FUEL that opposition that much stronger to resist them. It feels like a negotiation is impossible just because the series have established itself to be an action series with DBZ aura powerups. The only negotiation we've seen was with Shana and Yuji, and Shana's ideals sounds utterly pathetic compared to Yuji's.

Ah well, gotta keep watching.


Very great explanation on the whole thing, and i totally agree.

This episode alone really changed the whole main point of view of the plot, sure it was a pretty shocking plot twist to say the least, but now that i see the true goals of the tomagara and yuji's ideal. It makes the flame hazes, which are supposedly the main characters in this core story as the good guys, questionable. The line between evil and good is kind of blurry at this point. Shana's ideal just for love is aboslutly ridiculousness just like you said compared to yuji ideal's which are much more understandable, now im starting to feel for the tomagara as apposed to the flame hazes, i just wish thier was much character devolopement with more of the trinity members and the other tomagara, thats why its so confusing because alot of those plot threads are just missing from the core story.
It is absolutely a sin to be an anime fan and not at least experience "Akira" once in your life time.

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07-05-12, 7:41 PM

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Even if Sophie suspected "Yuji"s goal: Why is it bad that she doesn't tell the others what she suspect, when "Yuji" formulated that plan over the last 3000 years and didn't tell a single person, no even Shana when he had all the time in the world?

Why is it excusable that he asked them "what are you fighting for? there is nothing to fear", and the moment they drop their weapons the Tomogora slaughter them? When assuming the most positive (for Yuji) explanation, he doesn't have control over his army. Seeing his power, and them cheering and stuff, it's more likely that he simply lied.

The Flame Haze were already retreating, the only ones fighting were defending a single point, they did not chase when the attackers withdrew. Yet the Tomogora fired their artiillery, twice, and they ran after the ones who dropped their weapons.

Yuji may have a noble goal, but it's not sure if he can actually achieve it, so far it's only theory crafting. Of course he can't know for sure without trying, but then he should admit it. Instead, he hides behind words and semantics, and accuses them.

Yuji is not someone who tries to think of the best way for everyone, he is taking the shortest route to fullfilling his wish. Yuji is, as he and the Snake of the Festival were alone, too, absolutely selfish.

Giving the denizes a new world is simly the means he chose to end the war so that Shana doesn't have to fight, not because he wants them to have a world. Also, he didn't even ask Shana if she does want to stop fighting.

Tell your army to stand down, let the Flame Haze retreat, meet with Sophie and Shana and explain in detail what you want to do, why and how, and don't abuse it as a rallying speech for your army and to demoralize the already broken and reteating Flame Haze.

I do not really like Sophie, she is quite useless, the only thing she has in her favor is taking care of Decarabia, but she is not really a good later, and she doesn't fight with her troops. When they were in disarray arround her, she was literally helpless. But that has nothing do with the war itself.

Yuji certainly never heard of the Geneva Conventions, or chose to ignore it. You can not call someone like that good, no matter what his enemies have done. At best (for Yuji), both are equally evil, but seeing that the Flame Haze did not lie, or break stuff like the Geneva convention, and the Tomogora started it (even if you say the Flame Haze do no longer care about balance, but for revenge, this still means someone, as in, a Tomogora, did something terrible. Without a foul deed, there is no revenge. And don't suddenly invent that the Flame Haze started all of this, that would go against the whole backstory the anime tells, and is not even disputed in universe).

To sum it up: If Yuji would act reasonable, it would be possible to discuss the grand order, and if there really is no negative impact on the world, i am sure Shana would convince everyone to let him execute it. Thats actually what she is saying. Once the war is over, she will search for a path with him.

Instead of this, Yuji tries to eradicate everyone who is against this, so that when he actually executes his grand order he can say "told you, there is no negative impact" - because everyone who would have been affected negatively is already dead.
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07-06-12, 2:33 AM

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@NwAurion

You (and all who post about "reasonable talking" and "useless war") don't understand one thing (though it's not your fault, it's J.C.Stafs fault for poor 1st and 2nd adaptations) about Flame Hazes and Tomogaras. Basically they hate each other. And this hate has more than 3000 years history (they're all don't age so go figure). Remember that almost all of FH became one because of their hate. So even if someone said:"Well shit now you can't fight each other anymore" they won't listen to him. Not FH nor Tomogaras. It was pretty well explained in novels and omitted in anime
 
08-13-12, 3:43 PM

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Awesome, I love Yuji's plan.

Remember that the flame hazes didn't casually just sign up for this...they all have a Tomogara that they desire to kill. It's what drives them, that revenge. With the tomogara gone, they can't have that.


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12-23-12, 9:42 AM

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I finally understand all of these bullshit especially Yuji's objective. These Flame Haze are all just dickheads especially that nun.


Though I kinda bored with all of these all-out war because this is something like a copy of ZnT.
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