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Alrick said: If I may interject Servants don't die easy. To kill a Servant you have to chop it's head or destroy their core (not sure where it is but it's probably close to where their heart would be). Otherwise they can survive tremendous abuse. In Fate/Stay Night Saber, even with limited Mana, survived a full blast of Enuma Elish even if she ended up blind and incapacitated, she was still alive. If Lancer tried to kill Caster he could have injured him, but in the process the minions would still be there, by the point he was close to kill Caster, Caster could have countered and Saber would have likely been defeated.neurogal91 said: Hmm, doesn't all the Servants have the ability to sense other nearby Servants' presences? That's why Assassin's special ability is that they can conceal their presence completely. So Caster can easily notice Lance when he arrived and make the appropriate protection. Or Lancer wants to save Saber first. For the Assassin, well at least Tokiomi learns about Ionion Hetaroi first hand then being caught surprise in a fight. In the novel he did expressed regret for sacrificing the Assassins too early but thought it was worth it. But then this could also considered a mistake on Tokiomi's part on too fearful of Rider instead of other Servants. 1. Yeah they do, I thought they can just feel presence, not who is here and how numerous they are. May be wrong thou. Also minions have not even tried to stop Lance from uniting with Saber, that's why I have concluded that Caster did not see Lancer coming. Again may be wrong if Caster didn't mind things going that way. However I still think that even if it wouldn't result in surprise-attack, going for unguarded commander is smarter move compared to jumping into the ring of his minions. 2. Maybe that scene was just badly adapted (we are talking specifically about the anime version now am i right?), but it looked like Assassins have just came there to be slaughtered. They haven't even tried to go for the masters. And what bugs me the most... Well, ok maybe figuring out Riders NP was worthy accomplishment, but how on Earth did Takoumi know that Rider will use it? I mean if it was not AoE, but a Single target there would be no point using it against several weaklings... Again I may have missed smth here. There are lots of other questions. Like why Gilgamesh have killed the very first Assassin using the Gates if Takoumi values secrecy and information that much and he knew that everyone will be watching. It is possible that he couldn't convince him to do it the other way. But all in all those tiny strange decisions spoil the story a bit for me. |
 |
Alrick said: What exactly do i find "strange" (lets use this word, not to be too critical): For example the moment when Saber got herself surrounded by the Caster minions and Lancer jumped in to help here all of a sudden. Instead of much more logical attack on the Caster (who definitely haven't noticed his arrival) that would most likely result in elimination of the latter. Because Lancer is a Knight. It has NOTHING to do with 'shounen' and all to do with chivalry. He feels his honor was smeared in life. He would do everything he can to compensate in this second chance. He is obligated to help Saber because she's crippled by his actions. Pay attention to the characters before you criticize them. Some Servants have Lawful alignment. This means they are bound by a coda they follow. Saber and Lancer (and Berserker, although he ditches it for the Mad part) are those kind of characters. Once again, Rider is the only character with 'shounen' antics. He interrupts fights and expects people to follow him because he has a A-rank charisma. People DO flock to him as its natural. In episode 5, it basically was him dominating everyone else. He determined the fights, the arrangements, etc. He was acting like a king (they aren't just Servants, you expect to fight, they are proud Heroic Spirits who have other interests in mind and come with a certain baggage). He's also the most tactical minded of them, although his tactics work in groups rather than individual fights. Obviously that the Masters would be less honorable. They weren't born and raised in ages that honor mattered. Kayneth did expect a 'traditional' duel as magus and look what happened. He didn't even catch the hint when his hotel was bombed. Look what happened when Iri and Maiya tried to take on Kotomine Kirei. The anime didn't explain why he didn't finish them off (other that he didn't want to or seek them out). He wounded Iri to slow down Saber. If he hadn't done that, Saber would have found him and kill him (Assassin is no match for her). He forced her to choose this way to assist the wounded or chase him. Saber's honorable antics, furthermore, conflict with Kiritsugu. Because sure, Lancer is as chivalry-tard as she is, so she didn't expect any foul play from him. But she overlooked a huge thing: if Kayneth had been conscious, he could have command spell Lancer to kill Kiritsugu... The result would be Saber would have lost the Holy Grail War, Iri and Maiya would be dead too. Chaotic characters like Gilgamesh couldn't care less. He does what he wants. He has Kirei spy on the other Masters, he is already plotting to dispose of his boring Master. He's confident because he has an anti-world Noble Phantasm (aka the storybreaker power). So he has no reason to worry about the war. Characters like Caster used children as bait and breeding ground for his monsters... Characters like Assassin hide in the shadows to strike Masters, but they were being wasted as scouts. They were forced to attack Rider to reveal his Noble Phantasm (with a command spell). Sadly, this part was cut to fit on the airing size, it'll be included in the BD. A lot of people expect Fate/Zero to focus on the Servant Fights when that's incorrect. Sure, they are many flashy things that they pull out, but the heart of the conflict is Kirei vs Kiritsugu and neither of them are Servants. Leon-Gun said: In Fate/Stay Night Saber, even with limited Mana, survived a full blast of Enuma Elish even if she ended up blind and incapacitated, she was still alive. Gil was never serious against Saber (because lolwoman), though... The only times he uses Ea seriously are in Hollow/Ataraxia and He can control the ea blast. Otherwise there wouldn't be Fuyuki at sight when he used it against Saber. |
ThessDec 26, 2011 12:16 PM
| Thanks for the insights Thess. I almost forgot about the alignment characteristic. Though if they're a certain alignment (like lawful for instance), does that mean the servants must follow the code no matter what. What happens if they do break the "code" they're supposed to follow? Does their "alignment" or whatever then..change? There's also one more thing Alrick or someone else pointed out..that I want to know more about: Thess said: Characters like Assassin hide in the shadows to strike Masters, but they were being wasted as scouts. They were forced to attack Rider to reveal his Noble Phantasm (with a command spell). Sadly, this part was cut to fit on the airing size, it'll be included in the BD. Why does Tokiomi automatically assume that Rider will activate his NP if he was up against hundreds (?) of Assassins? Is his assumption based on his belief that Rider is incapable of protecting his servant unless he activates his NP? Rider could potentially have non-NP skills that he could have used to protect Waver from attacks...right? o.O It's not like Tokiomi knows the whole extent of Rider's skills if Rider hasn't used them yet. Nevertheless, Tokiomi's plan to use Assassin to test Rider's NP seems a bit reckless and risky imo. |
| I first wanted score this 10/10, but then I took an arrow in the knee |
sallym613 said: Thanks for the insights Thess. I almost forgot about the alignment characteristic. Though if they're a certain alignment (like lawful for instance), does that mean the servants must follow the code no matter what. What happens if they do break the "code" they're supposed to follow? Does their "alignment" or whatever then..change? There's also one more thing Alrick or someone else pointed out..that I want to know more about: Thess said: Characters like Assassin hide in the shadows to strike Masters, but they were being wasted as scouts. They were forced to attack Rider to reveal his Noble Phantasm (with a command spell). Sadly, this part was cut to fit on the airing size, it'll be included in the BD. Why does Tokiomi automatically assume that Rider will activate his NP if he was up against hundreds (?) of Assassins? Is his assumption based on his belief that Rider is incapable of protecting his servant unless he activates his NP? Rider could potentially have non-NP skills that he could have used to protect Waver from attacks...right? o.O It's not like Tokiomi knows the whole extent of Rider's skills if Rider hasn't used them yet. Nevertheless, Tokiomi's plan to use Assassin to test Rider's NP seems a bit reckless and risky imo. Aside of Tokiomi not being as smart as he thinks he is, it's a reasonable concern because those were 78 Assassins that he had to face. They weren't targeting Rider either, they were going to target Waver's life. He didn't think he would lose ALL of them in the process, btw. That was a miscalculation. For tonight’s operation, Kotomine Kirei used a Command Seal. The order was “Victory no matter what sort of losses.” The Command Seal was an absolute order to Servants, and thus, they could only follow it. Though it made them feel happy that Saber was disturbed and fearful, in reality she was not their target. Their target was Rider’s Master. Even though Rider had a powerful Noble Phantasm, its destructive powers are unidirectional. If Assassin attacked from all sides, they should... no, they must be able to strike at the wimpy short Master. From the novel: Assassin's calculations. His Via Expugnatio wouldn't be able to eliminate all of them if they came from all angles. The thing is that Ionioi Hetairoi isn't only army out nowhere, but also allows Rider to relocate the people at his leisure inside the reality marble (that's why Assassin that was surrounding them in different positions a moment ago were suddenly in a neat group in front to ambush and CHARRGEE!!). |
ThessDec 26, 2011 12:34 PM
| Even if by chance he didn't use his NP, he would still have to show some/most of his techniques and fighting skills to protect Waver. So, it was a win-win situation I guess. He probably thought the assassins wouldn't be needed anymore since he already got a lot of information from them, so he intended to end their participation in the war by doing something risky but that could pay off. And hey, it worked right? Besides, he has the most haxed servant of the war and he is pretty arrogant himself, so he have his reasons to get cocky. |
Lynx_7 said: Even if by chance he didn't use his NP, he would still have to show some/most of his techniques and fighting skills to protect Waver. So, it was a win-win situation I guess. He probably thought the assassins wouldn't be needed anymore since he already got a lot of information from them, so he intended to end their participation in the war by doing something risky but that could pay off. And hey, it worked right? Besides, he has the most haxed servant of the war and he is pretty arrogant himself, so he have his reasons to get cocky. No, Tokiomi regrets their loss. He miscalculated it. He thought some were going to survive. Kirei couldn't care less as usual. The problem wasn't an Anti-Army phantasm with an unidirectional power, but that Ionioi Hetairoi placed them all together as sitting ducks (the people materialize inside the desert as Rider wants: his army, his allies and his enemies) with no chance to escape. |
| Yeah, I was writting my post before you made your response. Thanks for clarifying that. Although it wouldn't have surprised me even if it was a case of Tokiome being overconfident. (well, he was in a sense) |
| @ Thess: How do you know there were 78 of them? =0 Aside from that, that makes a lot of sense now. Funny how I didn't notice the relocation of the Assassins in Rider's reality marble..even though I've seen that episode twice. And I've read that scene many times in the LN. Anyhow, most reality marbles I've seen so far seems to have limitless space...and servants who created them usually have a huge advantage. Well unless they're up against a Though I think Tokiomi's assumption is still pretty flawed lol. Rider could grabbed Waver and used his chariot and fly away safely and swiftly. And Tokiomi would have lost the opportunity to assess Rider's strength. But then again, he probably knew (?) Rider wouldn't want to leave yet in the middle of the Kings' Feast..with the debate about kings still hanging. |
| @ Lynx_7: Yup. I think that pretty sums it up for Tokiomi. He's a careful strategist. But he's still highly overconfident. Not that I entirely blame him. As you mentioned before: Lynx_7 said: he has the most haxed servant of the war As long as he did "careful" planning and as long as things still go the way he wanted (despite few miscalculations), he will remain overconfident. Not to mention that he still has complete faith in Kirei's loyalty to him, whom he still believes will keep helping him. Ironically, one of the things that is giving him a big headache, is the increasing tension between him and Gilgamesh, with his huge pride. You'll see that happen especially very early in the 2nd part. |
sallym613 said: @ Thess: How do you know there were 78 of them? =0 Assassin's NP:  Two were killed, one by Gil in the beginning and another one by Rider. sallym613 said: Aside from that, that makes a lot of sense now. Funny how I didn't notice the relocation of the Assassins in Rider's reality marble..even though I've seen that episode twice. And I've read that scene many times in the LN. Anyhow, most reality marbles I've seen so far seems to have limitless space...and servants who created them usually have a huge advantage. Well unless they're up against a This RM allows Rider to place everyone in places of his choice. Not every RM is the same. |
Miya_F_Exia said: You're trolling, right? Please tell me you are. Madoka's music was actually good and noticable, while I pretty much didn't even notice the background music here. Because it didn't stand out at all. And LOL @ "same bland song for almost 12 episodes." Would really like to know which song it is you're talking about.For me, it was still better than Madoka's OST though. At least I don't have to listen to a bland song for almost 12 episodes. Thess said: So just sitting in the middle of the action and talking like you're actually in control means you're dominating? All he did was run over Berserker, and we all know that that did nothing. Nobody really even tried to attack him then. Their conflicts were all with other parties involved.In episode 5, it basically was him dominating everyone else. He determined the fights, the arrangements, etc. |
DraconisMarchDec 26, 2011 1:32 PM
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DraconisMarch said: Miya_F_Exia said: You're trolling, right? Please tell me you are. Madoka's music was actually good and noticable, while I pretty much didn't even notice the background music here. Because it didn't stand out at all. And LOL @ "same bland song for almost 12 episodes." Would really like to know which song it is you're talking about.For me, it was still better than Madoka's OST though. At least I don't have to listen to a bland song for almost 12 episodes. I think both OSTs are great, but KnK OST has to be my favorite... This one sounds LESS trademark of Yuki, though, but in a good way. The song that played when Iri pulled her bird and the ones with Rider always sound epic. DraconisMarch said: So just sitting in the middle of the action and talking like you're actually in control means you're dominating? All he did was run over Berserker, and we all know that that did nothing. Nobody really even tried to attack him then. Their conflicts were all with other parties involved. Dominating isn't always about violence: Rider was the one who stopped the fight between Lancer and Saber just because, he goaded the rest to join in and they DID, then he was calmly analyzing Berserker's NP (using Gil), after that he decided to give a hand to Saber and Lancer due to the Berserker/Kayneth issue, forcing BOTH to withdraw. His intervention was the reason why two Masters had to waste two command spells (also it spoiled Kiritsugu's plans). He was the only one who didn't break a sweat of the gathered while the action happened around him. Yeah, he was pretty in control of the situation, acting like an arbiter who made others join and broke the action at his leisure. Once he appeared, his decisions and actions (even if they weren't flashy) decided the course of that battle. It's even more evident in the novels... Iskandar would do a good "Ruler" like Jeanne D'Arc, IMO. He seems more interested in keeping the battle regulated than fighting other Servants... |
ThessDec 26, 2011 1:49 PM
Thess said: DraconisMarch said: Miya_F_Exia said: You're trolling, right? Please tell me you are. Madoka's music was actually good and noticable, while I pretty much didn't even notice the background music here. Because it didn't stand out at all. And LOL @ "same bland song for almost 12 episodes." Would really like to know which song it is you're talking about.For me, it was still better than Madoka's OST though. At least I don't have to listen to a bland song for almost 12 episodes. Why would I be trolling? Kajiura is my favorite composer and I have nothing against Madoka at all to get picky about it. And I'm talking about Sis Puella Magica, that was played in nearly every episode and sometimes did not even fit the scene. Not to mention the song is the same thing for over 2 minutes. For me, Madoka's music was nice but overall was quite lacking, while F/Z's, while still lacking, still manages to be more "fresh" and likeable. Add to that the fact that I'm a sucker for Tokyo Konsei's songs and F/Z is full of it. |
| For me, Madoka's OST was a little more memorable than KnK (when hearing them play in the anime). But I personally like KnK's OST a little more than Madoka's OST when I heard the whole soundtrack for both. Thess said: Iskandar would do a good "Ruler" like Jeanne D'Arc, IMO. He seems more interested in keeping the battle regulated than fighting other Servants... Mostly agree. He does have the potential. Though I would say he's nearly as interested the same in fighting other servants, preferably those on par or stronger than him. He's quite interested in fighting Lancer, Saber, and later on Gil. Makes me wonder whether Fate/Apocrypha will reveal why they created a ruler class. I'm very interested in that. I wonder if it has to do with the fact that theres more than one servant from each respective class participating. Btw, I just read on the wiki just last night and it says it's going to be in novel format. Not sure if this is 100% true though. @ Miya_F_Exia: Tokyo Konsei's songs? Are you talking about the music for F/Z sound drama? I'm a little confused here. |
sallym613 said: Mostly agree. He does have the potential. Though I would say he's nearly as interested the same in fighting other servants, preferably those on par or stronger than him. He's quite interested in fighting Lancer, Saber, and later on Gil. Makes me wonder whether Fate/Apocrypha will reveal why they created a ruler class. I'm very interested in that. I wonder if it has to do with the fact that theres more than one servant from each respective class participating. Btw, I just read on the wiki just last night and it says it's going to be in novel format. Not sure if this is 100% true though. Rider would prefer if Lancer and Saber were part of his army and Gil ruled by his side... He would fight them if he must, but he negotiates first. That's why I think he's better off as Ruler class. He really skilled in arbitration (since he's the one who provides most Hope Spots in the Fate/Zero storyline). It's in light novel format, the first chapter with loli Jack the Ripper has been published. |
Miya_F_Exia said: For me, it was still better than Madoka's OST though. At least I don't have to listen to a bland song for almost 12 episodes. The combat themes in Fate Zero were great, but the thing with the Madoka OST, and for that matter Kajiura's Noir and Hack Sign OSTs, is that it was extremely varied. Madoka's OST possessed a large amount of memorable "dialogue" themes, while Fate Zero really only has the musical theme posted by Urufuzu_rein, which was played during the dual analysis between Kiritsugu and Kotomine. Fate Zero also tends to have these long stretches of complete silence, such as the one that occurred during the Saber-Iri scene in episode 12. You're right in that the song, Sis puella magica, is played a lot, but it's a great song that really draws the viewer into the story. The silence in Fate Zero was jarring to the point where it sometimes did the exact opposite. Fate Zero definitely didn't have a bad OST; if I had to place it, I'd probably say that its well above average, but I do agree that it isn't up to Kajiura's A-Game, as Kaijara's A-Game is legendary. If I had to rank her OSTs, in regard to the anime I've seen then I'd probably organize it like this: Noir's Ost > Hack/Sign's Ost > Madoka's Ost > Kara no Kyoukai's Ost > Fate Zero's Ost Canta Per Me > All |
LunarMoonDec 26, 2011 2:41 PM
| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan! |
Thess said: Sis Puella Magica was definitely overplayed, but it definitely wasn't bland, and I don't recall any scenes where it didn't fit. But whatever.DraconisMarch said: Why would I be trolling? Kajiura is my favorite composer and I have nothing against Madoka at all to get picky about it. And I'm talking about Sis Puella Magica, that was played in nearly every episode and sometimes did not even fit the scene. Not to mention the song is the same thing for over 2 minutes.Miya_F_Exia said: You're trolling, right? Please tell me you are. Madoka's music was actually good and noticable, while I pretty much didn't even notice the background music here. Because it didn't stand out at all. And LOL @ "same bland song for almost 12 episodes." Would really like to know which song it is you're talking about.For me, it was still better than Madoka's OST though. At least I don't have to listen to a bland song for almost 12 episodes. For me, Madoka's music was nice but overall was quite lacking, while F/Z's, while still lacking, still manages to be more "fresh" and likeable. Add to that the fact that I'm a sucker for Tokyo Konsei's songs and F/Z is full of it. Thess said: I know it's not all about violence. But the only reason Gilgamesh joined in was because he wasn't fond of how big of a pompous ass he was. (What with them calling themselves kings and all; the insolence!) Fuck knows why Berserker decided to show up; maybe he wanted to play with Gilgamesh; maybe just for the lolz.DraconisMarch said: Dominating isn't always about violence: Rider was the one who stopped the fight between Lancer and Saber just because, he goaded the rest to join in and they DID, then he was calmly analyzing Berserker's NP (using Gil), after that he decided to give a hand to Saber and Lancer due to the Berserker/Kayneth issue, forcing BOTH to withdraw. So just sitting in the middle of the action and talking like you're actually in control means you're dominating? All he did was run over Berserker, and we all know that that did nothing. Nobody really even tried to attack him then. Their conflicts were all with other parties involved. His intervention was the reason why two Masters had to waste two command spells (also it spoiled Kiritsugu's plans). He was the only one who didn't break a sweat of the gathered while the action happened around him. Yeah, he was pretty in control of the situation, acting like an arbiter who made others join and broke the action at his leisure. Once he appeared, his decisions and actions (even if they weren't flashy) decided the course of that battle. It's even more evident in the novels... Iskandar would do a good "Ruler" like Jeanne D'Arc, IMO. He seems more interested in keeping the battle regulated than fighting other Servants... And giving HIM credit for 2 masters using command spells is quite the stretch. Gilgamesh was only raging against Berserker and, like I said, only showed up because Rider said some ignorant things; nothing else. Kayneth wanted Lancer to kill Saber before Rider even stuck his hairy face into their business anyways. |
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DraconisMarch said: Fuck knows why Berserker decided to show up; maybe he wanted to play with Gilgamesh; maybe just for the lolz. It wasn't clear in the anime, but Kariya summoned Berserker there after he saw that Gilgamesh has been summoned. Kariya has a huge grudge against Tokiomi. Gilgamesh's appearance gives him an opportunity to "humiliate" Tokiomi. Thess said: It's in light novel format, the first chapter with loli Jack the Ripper has been published. Has anyone started translating it yet? (lol I still can't get over the whole Jack the Ripper being a loli *facepalm*) LunarMoon said: Hmm. It's not my personal favorite by Yuki Kajiura. But this is quite unique and different compared to other OSTs I have heard from her.Canta Per Me > All |
DraconisMarch said: I know it's not all about violence. But the only reason Gilgamesh joined in was because he wasn't fond of how big of a pompous ass he was. (What with them calling themselves kings and all; the insolence!) Fuck knows why Berserker decided to show up; maybe he wanted to play with Gilgamesh; maybe just for the lolz. And giving HIM credit for 2 masters using command spells is quite the stretch. Gilgamesh was only raging against Berserker and, like I said, only showed up because Rider said some ignorant things; nothing else. Kayneth wanted Lancer to kill Saber before Rider even stuck his hairy face into their business anyways. The Light novels explicitly put Rider as the one who triggered everything with his words and actions in THAT scene. When he began to goad the rest, Tokiomi and Kirei were “oh oh”. He drew in Gilgamesh. Tokiomi was furious about it. As he triggered them, he ended it and told those who didn't go home yet to call it a day. Uhh, it’s not a stretch. Gilgamesh wasn’t supposed to show up, but he did, because Rider goaded him in the first place (and Tokiomi was all "this is bad" in an irate way). Kayneth wasted a command spell because once again, he trampled Berserker and told Kayneth to GTFO. LN makes it clear that he would have trampled Lancer and Saber if he had wanted to, but didn’t (Saber realized that in that moment, Rider could have defeated three Servants in one swoop but didn't). He pretty much unraveled the careful planned strategies of the ‘scheming’ Masters with his actions. It was hilarious how much RAGE there was in the LN. LOL. Max Trolling. That’s why I say: he should have been a Ruler class, because every single time he tries to arbiter or negotiate. sallym613 covered Berserker's reason to appear. |
ThessDec 26, 2011 3:00 PM
| This is me being lazy and not quoting who I should be quoting. While Sis Puella Magica manages to convey the theme of Madoka very well, it was so overplayed that it began to fail in doing this. It began to be just the "dialog song" that sometimes begins to play randomly. I can understand Madoka having a varied OST, but to be quite honest most of the songs sounded like generic versions of older songs and not even being of the same quality (to the point that I'd read people talking about the songs in this manner: This is like a song I know from Noir, this is from KnK, this is from Tsubasa and so on; maybe the problem relies on Kajiura that has been doing the same thing for...forever). This is just one thought of mine, but I think they tried sometimes to "remake" KnK due to its praise (with some people claiming it to be Kajiura's best work to date). Kajiura said once that she wanted to create an "empty" feeling with its OST, so many times the movies were filled by mere sounds or even nothing. That worked in KnK since it was a different kind of product. But it seems to me they are trying to do the same thing here, with F/Z being a different product. Anyway, they could be saving better songs for dialogs for the second half of the series, but the first one was rather shallow on this department. And I'm not a big fan of Canta Per Me either. I think I just got tired of it with time. (I'll refrain from proceeding with the Madoka OST discussion, since it does not belong here.) |
| Good stuff, Rider continues to be a great character. I loved his conversation with Waver as the sun was setting, his description of them as tiny beings in a large world was really interesting. Also, the scene between Ryuunosuke and Caster added a bit of spice to their characters that I felt was missing ever since their first appearance in episode 2. I guess I'll blame the censorship, as I found them a bit bland compared to every other master/servant team. Anyway, this series has built the characters up and gave them some depth. I think actually giving the characters, well, character instead of indiscriminately killing them from the beginning is ultimately going to prove to be a smart move. After all, if I grow to like the characters the impact when the bodies start to inevitably fall will be that much greater. I'll give this an 8/10 for now and will raise it or lower it depending on how the second season goes. I don't care what MAL lists it as, this and the second season are obviously part of a continuing story and I will rate it as such. Well, I'll probably pick up the Light Novel in the meantime. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
Thess said: So your basis is pretty much all founded in what the light novel says--even though the anime doesn't show any of this. Got it.DraconisMarch said: I know it's not all about violence. But the only reason Gilgamesh joined in was because he wasn't fond of how big of a pompous ass he was. (What with them calling themselves kings and all; the insolence!) Fuck knows why Berserker decided to show up; maybe he wanted to play with Gilgamesh; maybe just for the lolz. And giving HIM credit for 2 masters using command spells is quite the stretch. Gilgamesh was only raging against Berserker and, like I said, only showed up because Rider said some ignorant things; nothing else. Kayneth wanted Lancer to kill Saber before Rider even stuck his hairy face into their business anyways. The Light novels explicitly put Rider as the one who triggered everything with his words and actions in THAT scene. When he began to goad the rest, Tokiomi and Kirei were “oh oh”. He drew in Gilgamesh. Tokiomi was furious about it. As he triggered them, he ended it and told those who didn't go home yet to call it a day. Uhh, it’s not a stretch. Gilgamesh wasn’t supposed to show up, but he did, because Rider goaded him in the first place (and Tokiomi was all "this is bad" in an irate way). Kayneth wasted a command spell because once again, he trampled Berserker and told Kayneth to GTFO. LN makes it clear that he would have trampled Lancer and Saber if he had wanted to, but didn’t (Saber realized that in that moment, Rider could have defeated three Servants in one swoop but didn't). He pretty much unraveled the careful planned strategies of the ‘scheming’ Masters with his actions. It was hilarious how much RAGE there was in the LN. LOL. Max Trolling. That’s why I say: he should have been a Ruler class, because every single time he tries to arbiter or negotiate. sallym613 covered Berserker's reason to appear. |
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DraconisMarch said: So your basis is pretty much all founded in what the light novel says--even though the anime doesn't show any of this. Got it. It shows this to those who get the meaning behind the scenes as of how everyone fell like domino pieces the second Rider stepped on the scene and had the last word. ;) Remember the anime is just a flawed, but pretty adaptation of the real thing. |
Thess said: DraconisMarch said: So your basis is pretty much all founded in what the light novel says--even though the anime doesn't show any of this. Got it. It shows this to those who get the meaning behind the scenes as of how everyone fell like domino pieces the second Rider stepped on the scene and had the last word. ;) Remember the anime is just a flawed, but pretty adaptation of the real thing. There's also the cuts to consider. You'll probably get more of those tiny missing implications in the uncut, BD version. Which hopefully will fill in a lot of those gaps. But yes, if theres any detail you don't understand, you can always try referring to the LN (: |
sallym613 said: There's also the cuts to consider. You'll probably get more of those tiny missing implications in the uncut, BD version. Which hopefully will fill in a lot of those gaps. But yes, if theres any detail you don't understand, you can always try referring to the LN (: That too. And occasional QUALITY that I hope will be fixed with the BD releases. They can't just spoon-feed us with the introspection all the time, that'll be bad. They trust the audience would put two and two together. Another example I can remember is the Kirei's bulletproof priest robes. |
| As the two before me said, Berserker showed up because Kariya wants to destroy Tokiomi. He specifically hates Tokiomi for not just taking the one he loves but also throwing her own daughter "to the wolves" (an action which will destroy Sakura for years to come and trigger the tragic events of Heaven's Feel). Kariya is not a calculating magus, he's emotional and his mind is fragile after a full year of "training" (aka torture) at the hands of Zouken. And to reply to my comment about Saber surviving Ea, I only meant it as an example of how tenacious Servants survival skills can be. They can take a lot of abuse plus, going back to the Caster scene, going for Caster without dealing with his Noble Phantasm risks Caster retaliating. Caster is basically beaten once you take the spellbook from him, or so it's the assumption. |
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Leon-Gun said: And to reply to my comment about Saber surviving Ea, I only meant it as an example of how tenacious Servants survival skills can be. They can take a lot of abuse plus, going back to the Caster scene, going for Caster without dealing with his Noble Phantasm risks Caster retaliating. Caster is basically beaten once you take the spellbook from him, or so it's the assumption. Oh yeah they are indeed tenacious, but also remember Saber and Archer occasionally benefit of Plot Armor EX. ;P Technically, the only Servants who WOULD stand up after a bad beating are those with Battle Continuation. |
Thess said: They can't just spoon-feed us with the introspection all the time, that'll be bad. They trust the audience would put two and two together. Another example I can remember is the Kirei's bulletproof priest robes. Well I guess so. Otherwise, it'll be very boring, having the characters spill out every single thing happening (which is actually what a lot of shounen anime do). It would definitely be weird if Irisviel or Maiya started talking about how Kirei's priest robs were bulletproof. Not sure how it went in the LN, but I'm pretty sure they were both quite taken by surprise so it would be pretty out of place for them to mention that. Especially if they're really surprised, I don't think they would have time to even think about it lol. |
| It was pointed out in the narration of the fight, IIRC. |
Thess said: Solkiskey said: Stupid strategies. Just look at episode 5. ...what? Kirei/Tokiomi: carefully studying the situation. Tokiomi even withdrew Gilgamesh. Because Gilgamesh would die. Common sense; not strategy. Kiritsugu: Trying to snipe a master, but unable to when other servants arrived, using Saber without telling her his plan (because she'll oppose him). Too bad he never learned the master's ability and normal bullets not affecting him. Rider: Purposefully drawing the whole bunch into to study them and have Waver read their Stats (Masters can do that), after negotiations failed. The result? It worked. True. Kayneth: Hiding (smart move) until Waver arrived with Rider. Yeah, he came out to pressure his student because he IS a jerkass and is angry about the Alexander theft. How is hiding a good strategy? Kiritsugu had his sniper on him. Kariya: ...half insane and in pain, jumps the gun when Tokiomi's Servant appears. Not a strategy, but fits the character well, so it's all fine. Aside of Kayneth and Kariya (because the worm induced madness), all the others were doing smooth moves. I'm starting to think only Waver and Rider have actual brains. Kayneth's even can be excused because he thought Iri was the Master (and she admitted she didn't have skill for combat, meaning Kiritsugu's trap worked). True, though refer to above. Half stupid strategies. |
Solkiskey said: Thess said: Solkiskey said: Stupid strategies. Just look at episode 5. ...what? Kirei/Tokiomi: carefully studying the situation. Tokiomi even withdrew Gilgamesh. Because Gilgamesh would die. Common sense; not strategy. Kiritsugu: Trying to snipe a master, but unable to when other servants arrived, using Saber without telling her his plan (because she'll oppose him). Too bad he never learned the master's ability and normal bullets not affecting him. Rider: Purposefully drawing the whole bunch into to study them and have Waver read their Stats (Masters can do that), after negotiations failed. The result? It worked. True. Kayneth: Hiding (smart move) until Waver arrived with Rider. Yeah, he came out to pressure his student because he IS a jerkass and is angry about the Alexander theft. How is hiding a good strategy? Kiritsugu had his sniper on him. Kariya: ...half insane and in pain, jumps the gun when Tokiomi's Servant appears. Not a strategy, but fits the character well, so it's all fine. Aside of Kayneth and Kariya (because the worm induced madness), all the others were doing smooth moves. I'm starting to think only Waver and Rider have actual brains. Kayneth's even can be excused because he thought Iri was the Master (and she admitted she didn't have skill for combat, meaning Kiritsugu's trap worked). True, though refer to above. Half stupid strategies. 1. Kirei and Tokiomi: Their observing and analyzing the situation is strategic. Their decision to appear as enemies but collaborate is strategic. For the part with Tokiomi withdrawing Gilgamesh, I agree with what you say. 2. Kiritsugu: He eventually did when confronting Kayneth later. Based on his fighting with Kayneth, you can tell that Kiritsugu is probably the best strategist out of all the seven masters. His name, Mage Killer, isn't just for show. He's for real. 3. Kayneth: That's because he wasn't expecting someone involved in the Grail War to use a non-mage weapon to find him. It's not mentioned in the anime, but the sniper that Kiritsugu was using had a thermographic scope, which allows him to find people through detected heat source. Even if Kayneth hid his presence (through magic?), Kiritsugus would still be able to find him through conventional means. So actually Kayneth hiding wasn't a bad idea. However, he threw away this strategy of hiding when he decided to intimidate and confront Waver out of pride and anger. Most of the characters have some sort of strategy at first. Unfortunately, some of them let their pride and anger get the better of them, and thus they sacrifice their strategy in the process. |
Solkiskey said: Too bad he never learned the master's ability and normal bullets not affecting him. Given what Kiritsugu actually knew about him, though, it was still a great strategy. The majority of the masters were so focused on servant battles and honorable duels that they never would have expected Kiritusgu to use modern, military technology in order to assassinate the master without actually confronting him. If not for the presence of Assassin and for the existence of the unknown variable of Kayneth's automated defense, it would have also been a great strategy that resulted in Kayneth's death. How is hiding a good strategy? Kiritsugu had his sniper on him. Yes. Because Kiritsugu is a former soldier, and a military professional, with years of assassination experience. The fact that Kiritsugu was able to find his location and possibly kill him, even given Kayneth's intelligent move, is no mark against the soundness of Kayneth's strategic decision, since the person who did manage to find and potentially assassinate him made a living doing just to other magi. Against anyone else, hiding would be a great strategy, and even against Kiritsugu, it's still better than standing out in the open. I'm starting to think only Waver and Rider have actual brains. Why? It would seem that Kiritsugu possesses, by far, the most suave when it comes to strategic decision. Even at this point, the only person to realize that Iri is a decoy master is Kotomine, and most of his decisions are incredibly sound. He's not anywhere near as powerful as any of the servants, so all of his fights, revolve around tactics, such as his fight against Kayneth in which he manipulated him into throwing out all of his magical energy so that the Origin Bullet would have the maximum effect. The man is a tactical genius, who can make complex decisions in the heat of battle. Half stupid strategies. Just not seeing it. Along with the cast of Death Note, Code Geass, and G-Senjou no Maou, the characters of Fate Zero seem to make the most well thought out strategic decisions that I've ever seen in an anime or visual novel. It's also one of the few anime that I know of in which the vast majority of the cast possess an above average level of intelligence. |
LunarMoonDec 26, 2011 5:03 PM
| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan! |
Solkiskey said: Kirei/Tokiomi: carefully studying the situation. Tokiomi even withdrew Gilgamesh. Because Gilgamesh would die. Common sense; not strategy. You don’t know Gilgamesh, do you? If he wanted to (and was serious about it), he could have one-shot all the Servants. He has the only Anti-World Noble Phantasm (Ea) of the bunch. He is THAT Hax. Nonetheless, Tokiomi had a plan (because he did not know if the others could out Hax him): he had Kirei observe the Master/Servants via Assassin and then have Gilgamesh fight them after they finished the investigation. The issue was that Gilmagesh isn’t one to sit quietly and wait for the sake of “calm and elegance”. He’s a thrill-seeker which makes him incompatible with Tokiomi as Master. Instead, Gil slowly corrupted his pupil, Kirei, to be a Master suitable for him (Tokiomi's plan only failed to consider his allies could potentially turn against him). Rider’s goading threw off his scheme (and the rest of the Master’s). He got trolled and he had to use one of his precious Command Seals. Solkiskey said: Too bad he never learned the master's ability and normal bullets not affecting him. He isn’t a mind-reader and he did all the homework he could previously (do you remember episode 1? He had information of the Masters faxed to him). Do you expect people to not have trump cards hidden under their sleeves and not parading them around (wasn’t this the problem?)? Once again, his plan crumbled because Rider crashed the party and invited everyone else to join. In other words, it became a mess. His strategy was fine: he has Iri as decoy Master to fool others Masters while he kills them (which worked in the end, when Kayneth went to challenge the Master into a duel in other episodes, believing that was Iri. Kiritsugu caught him off guard). Solkiskey said: How is hiding a good strategy? Kiritsugu had his sniper on him. Kayneth is a traditional Magus sent from London under the advertising of the Holy Grail War as a ground for honorable magi battles and stuff. The LEAST he can expect is some dude using rifles and guns. However, against a traditional magus, Kayneth’s the most skilled of the Masters: he’s a prodigy with a set up awesome defenses (that are bombed), he’s also a cheat. See, in case you didn’t know, Masters usually get their magical energy gimped because they are maintaining their Servant, but Kayneth doesn’t have this problem because he devised a system to have his fiancé providing prana while he retains all his capabilities. This is revealed in episode 6, remember? Knowing this, he only remained hiding to survey the Masters: a homunculus only good for healing magic (support) and his untalented student Waver…both surely crippled already by maintaining their Servants. It was good to emerge from the shadows. He was cautious. He also wanted to take advantage of Berserker’s charge and ordered Lancer to get Saber with him. That was upper handed and clever, but CHIVALRY!1! and Rider (again) trolled him. Solkiskey said: Not a strategy, but fits the character well, so it's all fine. That’s the point. He can barely walk, let alone think straight. His strategy is “BESERKER SMASH 'EM”. Ironically, Berserker is a genius bruiser who makes out for it. SADLY, he gets ARRRRR THURRRRR!1!! near Saber (sad thing the anime gave us a MOOOO while the novel Berserker was going ARRRRR.... THURRRRRRRR). The thing is that he experiences a hell on earth (Anime did not really displayed all of it), even without Berserker (who literally is a prana monster consumption machine). Let me show you what is being Kariya Matou: Solkiskey said: I'm starting to think only Waver and Rider have actual brains. Mostly Rider, although Waver is very smart and practical (his alchemy to pinpoint Caster's lair was basic and it worked. Alexander approves of those solutions) in never detaching himself from Iskandar, since it keeps him alive. Let’s not forget that @LunarMoon: Alexander IS the best strategist (he has B in Military Strategy rank), but those apply when moving armies, not this individual pissing contest he seems more willing to negotiate than fight... If he had Kiritsugu's personality, he could have taken advantage of the opening in episode 5 and eliminate Berserker, Lancer and Saber (as she observed). He just didn't go for it. Same reason why Gil doesn't just pull Ea out and blasts them all. His personality won't allow it. |
ThessDec 26, 2011 5:34 PM
| When you add personal standards to direction, pacing and plot movement then I don't see problem on calling those half stupid. Quality comes from execution after all. Those who have read VL and LN are obviously seeing things in different light which might make them opinion more biased. I bolded it, otherwise someone starts war. LunarMoon said: Death Note, Code Geass, and G-Senjou no Maou, the characters of Fate Zero seem to make the most well thought out strategic decisions that I've ever seen in an anime or visual novel. Legend of the Galastic Heroes, ever heard of it? Watch it and your standards to strategy changes. |
| I definitely have superpowers. I can feel it in my balls. |
Karhu said: Those who have read VL and LN are obviously seeing things in different light which might make them opinion more biased. I bolded it, otherwise someone starts war. Well, true and a lot of things were omitted or cut by the anime (the part I pasted was Kariya being clever for once, hiding in the sewers while the battle took place and using "sight bugs" to oversee it. That's how Kiritsugu and Maiya never found his location). For a half mad, half eaten man, he can use what's left in his brain. Unless Tokiomi is involved, obviously. XD; I'm kind of hoping the BD version would fix the omissions. Maybe it's a hopeless wish, but we will get the full Mad Feast of Kings, right? ;_; |
ThessDec 26, 2011 5:53 PM
Riptos said: Rider is frickin bitchin, seriously that guy is the best servant ever...not only can you conquer the world with him but he is chill enough to sit and want to play video games with you as well. Winning! I know right? Epic servant...... Too bad he isn't like Saber where you can have a nice, intimate se- never mind, I was just kidding. Ahem, Epic, I would be inspired to take over the world with him and play videoigamez. It's over already!? That was amazing, certainly the best anime this season with few competitors. WAYYYY Better than F/SN. Can't wait for next season and the coolness of Berserker |
| "Justice Never Dies!" - Kenji Endou, 20th century Boys |
| It's not a last episode folks. Anyway, heavy focus on Rider and Caster, with great in-depth look into their characters and respective masters. It does look like a huge showdown will be going to happen next season, and I cannot wait to continue this marvelous series that added so much colour to an already amazing year for anime. |
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Thess said: I'm kind of hoping the BD version would fix the omissions. Maybe it's a hopeless wish, but we will get the full Mad Feast of Kings, right? ;_; I heard from someone else in another Fate/Zero thread that we'll have the full episode of the Kings' Feast airing on Jan. 2th 8D Or I think it'll be the full extent of the feast.. Here's the post I found with more information about it: Perloo said: http://yaraon.blog109.fc2.com/blog-entry-6151.html January 02, at Mr. TOKYO MX, we'll be decided once the 13 episodes aired first season! And Episode 11, "Questions and Answers Holy Grail" is broadcast in the original edition will be unveiled! Program Title ◆: New Year once broadcast 13 episodes Fate / Zero First Season Broadcasters ◆: TOKYO MX Date ◆: January 02, 2012 (Mon), 11:00 am |
sallym613Dec 26, 2011 7:59 PM
| aw, cliffhanger. cant wait for season2 |
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| Oh no it's already over for now. But it's okay since I'm gonna be busy with school until March so I think it's just fine (for me at least LOL) and it will give me some vacant spot to watch other anime this Winter 2012. I really love this anime. Everything that is put on in this series is highly commendable especially the stunning art and of course the story. Having that said, I'll surely be looking forward to the next season of Fate/Zero!  |
| I can't believe it that the series only has 13 episodes. I was so excited because the battle is already starting.. I need to be patient then... 2nd season... |
| ^_^ |
| think of it more like the anime is taking a 13 week break instead of having 2 seasons. |
| Rider is by far the best servant of this season.. even my deep love to Saber cannot fight with the epicness of Rider.. 10/10 Overall, now we need to wait till April.. |
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belatkuro said: @Thess. Better spoiler tag that Berserker's roar. Maybe that's the reason why they changed his roar coz it was a dead giveaway to his identity. Then again, ED already showed enough. ...They aren't really hiding the "spoiler" with that ending, though. They even made MORE obvious Gil wants Kirei as Master with his SYMBOLIC CHESS BOARD. |
| All good things come to an end. That's why One Piece is still going XD . Though, even greater things have sequels ^.^ |
| Real Hell is inside a person-Ai Enma (Jigoku Shoujo Mitsuganae) Do you know where hell is? Inside your head-Chrona (Soul Eater)  |
Thess said: Seeker said: After the Holy Grail Dialogue, I figured Rider would just treat Saber like a little girl. Not to say he would underestimate her fighting prowess, but I wasn't expecting him to come in and speak on friendly terms with Saber, even calling her "King of Knights." If he already stated that he didn't see Saber as a king anymore, then why still call her by her title? Seems contradicting. It's just a title. If you catch it, he says he wants her to join his army of servants. It's not because he dislikes her, he likes her (and Lancer) a lot. To her, kinghood brought her suffering and loneliness, he doesn't acknolwedge her as such because he wants to 'save' her from that curse. If Saber wasn't parading her remorse to the point of wishing to re-write history, you bet he wouldn't have discredited her. He was only pissed off mostly by the dismissal of the fights of her people who followed her cause, but it didn't last. He has a big brother instinct with a shounen-like mindset (defeat means friendship). Plus, in the Light novels and CD drama, I also remember Saber being really rude to Gilgamesh and Rider shouting heretics! and all (until Saber realized what was what Rider treasured the most). They were all under the effect of the alcohol (Gil's wine's that good), they are sober now. just adding, One of Rider's philosophies is defeating without humiliating. He may found that Saber's ideals are ridiculous, but that doesn't change the fact that he respects Saber as a rightful servant chosen by the Grail. |
 ~ IA- Aria on the Planetes ~ Vocaloid V3 voiced by LiA (Clannad Afterstory, Angel Beats! theme song singer) |
| cannot wait for Berserker throw some jet fighter into fight |
| Got me excited. I can't wait for April 2012 ^^ |
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