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Fate/Zero Episode 13 Discussion

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Poll: Fate/Zero Episode 13 Discussion


12-25-11, 12:54 AM

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Farewell best show of the season. Bye Rider, see ya in April ;_;

 
12-25-11, 1:13 AM

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Nice ending of the first cour, glad they didn't rushed through the Caster fight to fit it into the 13th episode since in the end this wasn't intended as a season finale, it was just a regular episode.

Will hold off my rating until the second cour is done. Can't really rate something that it's still not done. So far hats off to ufotable, best production of the year.
 
12-25-11, 1:14 AM

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Looks like shit's about to go down in April!
 
12-25-11, 1:18 AM

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sallym613 said:
Karhu said:
Btw, my time spent to manga is currently 112 days, 6 times more than yours together. I read manga from all these genres so I do know a little more than just the meanings of those terms.


What if Thess' anime/manga list isn't up to date?
What if people read more manga in a shorter amount of time?

Just saying. No need to be presumptuous here.

Also I'm curious: What do you exactly define as seinen, especially "plot-wise" then?


Yeap. What if... I don't care to search and add stuff in a forum profile?

(Like I don't, btw, because it's a waste of my time and frankly only discuss what catches my eye strongly).

Lol, the presumption made me laugh aloud. I don't know if they are being a troll on purpose or not. I hope they are just trolling.

Like I say, there's absolutely no way to "define" seinen plot wise, because that's a demographic designation not a genre. Seinen, like with shounen or shoujo or josei, can have many genres which includes a variety of plots: romance, sci-fi, adventures, etc. Shounen can have darker elements and some seinen can be light hearted, but that's ok, because what matters is the audience they are aiming the story? Sometimes the protagonists ages are closer to the audience, but it's not always (Madoka for example, they were like 13-15 years old female protagonists and it's still seinen).

I know that the Manga adaptation of Fate/Zero is being published in Young Ace, a seinen magazine. ;) Of course, sometimes the different adaptations have no bearing (Trinity Blood light novels are seinen and the manga adaptation is shoujo), but in this case they match since it's aired in Japan in what they consider the ADULT timeslot. Never apply how your country regulates anime to how the Japanese do, that's plain ignorance in the study of a different market that places a product in a completely different audience (without the same maturity and habit of the local Japanese one when it comes to anime). It's Marketing 101.

Thank you LunarMoon and sallym613, btw.
Modified by Thess, 12-25-11, 1:42 AM
 
12-25-11, 1:26 AM

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nice thing to end 1 season
somehow rider like the main character in this episode

now we must wait till April 2012
 
12-25-11, 2:01 AM

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Enjoyable, mainly because of the good cast [like them more than most of the characters in fate/stay night]... a solid 8/10. Looking forward to the second season!
 
12-25-11, 2:47 AM

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Why oh why are you so cute crazy Ryuunosuke??



Oh and for the series: WHAT A CLIFFHANGER!!! Can't wait for April xD

The first episode is why I can't rate this anime a 10. It was just too long with too much confusing dialogue. But still the animation and the action scenes were incredible, and the story is awesome. 9/10 easily from me :)

Are you sexy as f*ck? If yes, WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR? Join MAL's sexiest users!!!!!
 
12-25-11, 2:49 AM

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OMG fate zero truly is amazing :D
can't wait for the second season XD
The spring I met you,

The spring without you.
 
12-25-11, 3:26 AM

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Hands down the best series of the year on virtually every level and in virtually every episode. So now, we have 3 more months (plus one or two weeks) to wait for the second season is that it ? 10/10

In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.
 
12-25-11, 4:07 AM

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Now that was intense episode. Now I have to wait for 3 months to see part 2. :/
The first season was beyond awesome. Every episode was a masterpiece. Loved every second of this show. 10/10 from me. :)
 
12-25-11, 4:19 AM

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WOW....
EPIC...

Suddenly... I weirdly DON'T mind the wait. Mainly cos I KNOW that there's more to watch, and also because I don't want it to end. :P Smart people, ufotable. :)))

I am waiting for Caster to die a brrrrruuuuttttal death. =D
And then I'm waiting for Berserker! =D

I don't want Lancer to die. :( He's my beloved! I'm so charmed by him! haha!
Next season is gonna be kickass hawt but a real emotional crackdown cos the elimination will start... OH!!! what the hell!!! >.< I'm squirming already!!

Reallll Epic, this series...
I'm wondering WHY they made Fate/Stay Night with low budget... :? Even the plot was weak. Everytime I remember it now and everytime I end up comparing... It stands NOWHERE besides Fate/Zero!

Haaah.... *sigh sigh sigh*
I shall cherish this flavour till April.. :]
 
12-25-11, 4:31 AM

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What a great season it has been. Time has flown like the epic frame rates on the animation on the show.

Ufotable has done a fantastic work in this season so far, and I simply cannot wait for the last season to air. Those last 3 - 4 month waiting is going to be really hard, but for Fate\Zero fag people like me, I will muster the agony!

The animation throughout the season was just fantastic, I just cannot think of any other shows being animated in such bliss than Fate\Zero has. It's just breath taking to watch and the story is amazingly well written. Simply Epic!

As for the episode with one of the epic cliffhangers out there, it was expected but to be in that extend I didn't predict at all. 3 Servants charging with their might against one annoying frog looking Servants is indeed going to be something I will look forward in the next season.

Again Rider is the best bro in the show. What a boss he is!

As for the rating for me. The show won't go below 10/10 for me. The music, the characters in the show are just amazing. They all got their story to play and are unique in a way you'll just take them into you. Well not everyone is that gullibe, Caster and his master can die in a fire for all I care. Mwuhahahah

The show was really well paced as well, only some minor things were left out, but can be caught up with the Light Novel of the show in the whole.

Definitely show of the year for me. and I would also think that the last season would capture next year's as well.

Thanks to Ufotable and Unlimited Translation Works for one epic job well done on this show. I salute!

10/10
 
12-25-11, 4:42 AM

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Ended as expected.

8/10 overall. Not that it's not 10/10 material, it's just that it has no ending whatsoever, thus 8. S2 will most probably be 10 for sure. If it were just one show (and not as shown on MAL 2) this would've been rated 10.

Great music, great art, great character development, great fights, overall perfect show, but I simply can't rate it with 10 since it has no conclusion.
 
12-25-11, 5:35 AM

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WoW!!!! This episode kick ass,,,,,, :D

It's sad we have to wait or another 3 month to see the continuation......

Fate/Zero was quite the ride..... It did not have many action scenes like the sequel Fate/Stay but it was pretty deep in the psychological department......

8 /10 for now.... Might upgrade after watching season 2....
 
12-25-11, 5:47 AM

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I hate cliffhanger endings, but it was clear we would get one from the last few episodes sadly.

Overall i give it a 7.5/10 i guess. the animation overall was good, though some episodes fell off compared to the usual quality. Ryonusuke and Caster really suffered under the censoring, they would have been twice as awesome if you could actually see the carnage they unleash. Gilgamesh and Kirei only shined when having their discussions, apart from that they were really bland characters. Music was great.

Not a masterpiece, but definitely a good anime.
Modified by Lapan, 12-25-11, 5:57 AM
 
12-25-11, 5:53 AM
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The end with such a cliffhanger and we have to wait till April to see the conclusion!!
That's just fucked up no matter how you look at it.

The episode itself was a bit slow and odd the end the season with tho it's nice to see that things started the question is will next season continue the pace like this one did.
And how will the character develop hopefully Saber will be able to go at full power again at some point.
 
12-25-11, 7:26 AM

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WHY CAN'T I RATE THIS SHOW HIGHER??!!
THANK YOU UFOTABLE FOR AN AMAZING ADAPTATION OF THE FIRST HALF!!

I CAN'T WAIT FOR THE NEXT HALF! IT WILL BE GLORIOUS!!
"You watch too much."
"I don't watch enough."

 
12-25-11, 8:15 AM

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Great show, too bad I'll have to wait 3 months to see the rest of it. Oh well, I'm waiting for the blu-ray release to see Ryunosuke and Caster in all their gore glory and hopefully the full version of the King's Feast.

And I really cannot agree with the fact that it didn't progress the plot or whatever like some people are claiming, but to each their own.

As for the lack of action sequences, I'm sure that the 2nd half will have much more, but honestly, don't watch a Type-Moon show only expecting to see "lolbeamsandexplosions". Just don't. It's more about the characters, plot and underlying themes than fights. Sure, Fate/Stay Night was quite action packed(both anime and VN), but even that had a lot of discussions about ideals and whatnot. Especially in the 3rd route where the action really takes a backseat.
Modified by Lynx_7, 12-25-11, 8:18 AM
 
12-25-11, 8:22 AM

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Awesome season 1, 10/10 for it, might change if season 2 won't be great, but I doubt so!
 
12-25-11, 8:29 AM

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Thess said:
sallym613 said:
Karhu said:
Btw, my time spent to manga is currently 112 days, 6 times more than yours together. I read manga from all these genres so I do know a little more than just the meanings of those terms.


What if Thess' anime/manga list isn't up to date?
What if people read more manga in a shorter amount of time?

Just saying. No need to be presumptuous here.

Also I'm curious: What do you exactly define as seinen, especially "plot-wise" then?


Yeap. What if... I don't care to search and add stuff in a forum profile?

(Like I don't, btw, because it's a waste of my time and frankly only discuss what catches my eye strongly).

Lol, the presumption made me laugh aloud. I don't know if they are being a troll on purpose or not. I hope they are just trolling.

Like I say, there's absolutely no way to "define" seinen plot wise, because that's a demographic designation not a genre. Seinen, like with shounen or shoujo or josei, can have many genres which includes a variety of plots: romance, sci-fi, adventures, etc. Shounen can have darker elements and some seinen can be light hearted, but that's ok, because what matters is the audience they are aiming the story? Sometimes the protagonists ages are closer to the audience, but it's not always (Madoka for example, they were like 13-15 years old female protagonists and it's still seinen).

I know that the Manga adaptation of Fate/Zero is being published in Young Ace, a seinen magazine. ;) Of course, sometimes the different adaptations have no bearing (Trinity Blood light novels are seinen and the manga adaptation is shoujo), but in this case they match since it's aired in Japan in what they consider the ADULT timeslot. Never apply how your country regulates anime to how the Japanese do, that's plain ignorance in the study of a different market that places a product in a completely different audience (without the same maturity and habit of the local Japanese one when it comes to anime). It's Marketing 101.

Thank you LunarMoon and sallym613, btw.


So I say I have read lot of seinen, shonen and shojo to make it clear that I do have experience about those and that makes me a troll? Fine, you are troll for assuming I don't know what seinen and shonen are. Assumption was that everyone knows what seinen and shonen are but looks like it was too much. Gotta apply yo.

C'mon, you are just defining my sayings and not actually saying anything new. I said shonen, seinen and shojo are wide genres. I use word "genres" because that's what most of people use. I said "themes" and you are using "elements" meaning the same thing.

At first you actually said that content doesn't have anything to do with the audience it's directed.

Akumetsu was published in shonen magazine and it's seinen manga.

Fate/Zero is shonen which is made to look somewhat like seinen because of the dialog and timeslot. It's still more shonen, think otherwise if you like. Enough wasted time here already. Bye~


 
12-25-11, 8:38 AM

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So in conclusion, Fate/Zero has the mature content appropriate for Seinen, the timeslot appropriate for a Seinen, the dialogue heavy approach one would expect from Seinen, the predominantly adult cast one would expect from Seinen, and it's an adaptation of a Novel prequel to a Visual Novel with graphic sex scenes.

But it's shounen because Karhu said so.

Brilliant.
 
12-25-11, 8:54 AM

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Topgunuk69 said:
So in conclusion, Fate/Zero has the mature content appropriate for Seinen, the timeslot appropriate for a Seinen, the dialogue heavy approach one would expect from Seinen, the predominantly adult cast one would expect from Seinen, and it's an adaptation of a Novel prequel to a Visual Novel with graphic sex scenes.

But it's shounen because Karhu said so.

Brilliant.


"Fate Zero is just a shounen fighting tournament dressed with fancy dialogues to appear as seinen."
-Quoted from rori's review.

Fate/stay night anime:
Genres: Action, Fantasy, Magic, Romance, Shounen, Supernatural


 
12-25-11, 9:09 AM

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Quoting a review by some random guy on the internet and using MAL tags, you sure are persuasive.

The Fate/Stay Night Anime doesn't cover the more mature stuff from the VN and replaces the graphic sex scenes I mentioned with an awful CGI dragon.

Fate/Zero is being targeted at an adult male audience, it is Seinen, and the timeslot, content, cast, etc are appropriate for Seinen.

There's no rule that says it must satisfy your personal criteria of what constitutes "plot progression" to qualify as Seinen, a Seinen might go nowhere in terms of plot progression whilst a shounen could be filled with interesting developments, it's completely irrelevant as to whether or not a show is targeted at a certain demographic which is all that the labels of Seinen and Shounen mean.

If you don't think it's gone anywhere in the first half you're entitled to that view, it doesn't make it shounen.
 
12-25-11, 9:23 AM

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@ Thess: Uhh...your welcome lol?
I just couldn't help but nitpick on that part since I feel that there's no need to brag about how much time you spend on manga, let alone the need to compare. It's probably not Karhu's intention, but it just sounds a little condescending (in my head). I dont think I would have said anything if that part didn't come up =_=; No offense Karhu.

@ Karhu: *Sigh* Alright, so far, I only heard you saying that Fate/Zero is a shounen, not seinen..repeatedly. That Mirai Nikki, which is a shounen (I dont know if it is or not), has some of the horrid stuff that Fate/Zero has. That you have read many manga from different genres, like shounen, seinen, etc.

The thing is, you still haven't specify what really defines a manga as a shounen or seinen. Since you have read many manga, could you at least make specific comparisons, between Fate/Zero and a clearly defined seinen...just so that I can see what particular things you think differentiates between Fate/Zero and another seinen? In terms of atmosphere, certain scenes/themes, etc?

It would really help if you have backup proof of some sort to defend your argument. If you need to give spoilers, that's perfectly fine with me. Though preferably not the huge spoilers that would give away the ending of the plot.

As of now, I wouldn't say that Fate/Zero is seinen because I haven't read enough seinen to know for sure. But I really don't see it as shounen. Just can't.
Modified by sallym613, 12-25-11, 9:36 AM
 
12-25-11, 9:24 AM

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Nice episode although a little sad we have to wait till spring 2012 for see the continuation of the battle.


Not gonna put score since the anime hasn't ended yet. Until the end of the Fourth Grail War comes, this season won't get a score from me.
 
12-25-11, 9:26 AM

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Karhu said:

Fate/Zero is shonen which is made to look somewhat like seinen because of the dialog and timeslot. It's still more shonen, think otherwise if you like. Enough wasted time here already. Bye~

Even putting aside everything else that has been mentioned, such as the fact that Fate Zero seems largely bereft of qualities that would be associated with a shonen, it's extremely difficult to refute numbers, statistics, results from empirical studies, and in this case, Nielsen Ratings, from a reliable source. Fate Zero attracts a seinen (males 20-34), and to a lesser extent, josei (females 20-34) audience, and attracts very few males under the age of 13, an audience that would generally be associated with a shonen, and there seems to be little evidence that it ever aimed to attract them.

It's not a big deal or anything, since the age demographic to which a show is marketed to has little to do with its quality, but there just seems to be an extreme lack of evidence that Fate Zero is a shonen, in comparison to the overwhelming amount of evidence that it's a seinen.

Edit: Thanks, sallym613. There was a quote within a quote and I accidentally deleted the wrong name.
Modified by LunarMoon, 12-25-11, 9:39 AM
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Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan!
 
12-25-11, 9:36 AM

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@ LunarMoon: Lol you're quoting the wrong person xD It's Karhu, not Thess.

What about males between 13-20? Are they attracted to shounen or.."mature shounen" (if there's such a thing =_=;)?
 
12-25-11, 9:46 AM

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Does it even matter if it's seinen or shounen? Since when being a seinen series equals being better anyway?

But since we're on the subject, I would classify Fate/Zero as seinen. If Gantz, a manga about teenagers with a very shounen-like approach to it's story(yeah, a lot of people die and it has a serious atmosphere, like that didn't happen in Hokuto no Ken or other shonen works), is considered a seinen mostly because of it's graphical violence and sex, why shouldn't F/Z then? Sure, the graphic stuff from the light novel was censored for the tv release, but all of that stuff will be included in the Blu-ray version, so...
 
12-25-11, 10:12 AM

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Karhu said:
So I say I have read lot of seinen, shonen and shojo to make it clear that I do have experience about those and that makes me a troll? Fine, you are troll for assuming I don't know what seinen and shonen are. Assumption was that everyone knows what seinen and shonen are but looks like it was too much. Gotta apply yo.

C'mon, you are just defining my sayings and not actually saying anything new. I said shonen, seinen and shojo are wide genres. I use word "genres" because that's what most of people use. I said "themes" and you are using "elements" meaning the same thing.


You were the one who stubbornly and unreasonably claimed it was a genre, when it's a demographic, first and foremost.

I only thought about elements that are common in shounen manga such as Defeat means Friendship troupe which is so abused (it’s not exclusive to this demographic, but usually appears here). That attitude is present in Rider who is
That’s what I mean with it and changes nothing this is a seinen.

Karhu said:
At first you actually said that content doesn't have anything to do with the audience it's directed.


In case you miss it the first time I posted it (and I did it twice):

Thess said:
Seinen and shounen are about the demographics they aim, it has nothing to do with "content" of their plot.

Isn't the airing timeslot of F/Z late? Then it's geared towards the adults (aka seinen).


Hell, I mocked the idea of anyone thinking it’s shounen. I only acknowledged that the first two routes in Fate/Stay Night are kinda shounen esque but in the end, they are eroges that are sold to people above 18... Anyway, I’ve always stated that HEAVEN’S FEEL, the third route (that was never animated), is what resembles Fate/Zero the most in atmosphere and solves the plot threads presented in Zero.

I wouldn't take the anime versions of FSN seriously, they are despised by the fanbase because they chop down all the depth and water them...

Karhu said:
Akumetsu was published in shonen magazine and it's seinen manga.

Fate/Zero is shonen which is made to look somewhat like seinen because of the dialog and timeslot. It's still more shonen, think otherwise if you like. Enough wasted time here already. Bye~


Timeslot MEANS everything when comes to TV series demographic. Hell, also channel they are broadcast. Learn a little more about the Anime Japanese industry or pop culture there. Some manga can eventually change magazines when the tone shift or their audience begins to ‘mature’ with the story (Trigun, for instance).

But Fate/Zero isn’t one of them. Because it always AIMED to an audience of 18+ (shounen aims to people below 18. No matter how you like to slice it. This doesn’t mean it’s ‘lesser’, but it means they want to appeal teenage boys). Also, it’s a finished product (light novels adaptation). Coupled with Fate/Zero IS aired in the adult time slot and the BD will contain all the censored scenes that would rate the whole thing 18+ at least (since it’ll include Caster’s and Uryuu’s living furniture and musical instruments made of children’s bodyparts). Gen was extremely descriptive of these.

Topgunuk69 said:
So in conclusion, Fate/Zero has the mature content appropriate for Seinen, the timeslot appropriate for a Seinen, the dialogue heavy approach one would expect from Seinen, the predominantly adult cast one would expect from Seinen, and it's an adaptation of a Novel prequel to a Visual Novel with graphic sex scenes.

But it's shounen because Karhu said so.

Brilliant.


You're brilliant. XD
Modified by Thess, 12-25-11, 10:24 AM
 
12-25-11, 10:14 AM

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Wow i feel like i just got trolled.

a 4 month hiatus is really long, if ur waiting for the continuation of one of ur most anticipated anime of the year.

But at least it will air in the same season as Tasogare Otome X Amnesia and Sankarea so alls fine
 
12-25-11, 10:14 AM

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Karhu said:
Topgunuk69 said:
So in conclusion, Fate/Zero has the mature content appropriate for Seinen, the timeslot appropriate for a Seinen, the dialogue heavy approach one would expect from Seinen, the predominantly adult cast one would expect from Seinen, and it's an adaptation of a Novel prequel to a Visual Novel with graphic sex scenes.

But it's shounen because Karhu said so.

Brilliant.


"Fate Zero is just a shounen fighting tournament dressed with fancy dialogues to appear as seinen."
-Quoted from rori's review.

Fate/stay night anime:
Genres: Action, Fantasy, Magic, Romance, Shounen, Supernatural


I don't see what point your trying to make by mentioning the genres of the fate stay night anime. I don't blame you for thinking Fate/Zero is a shounen though, since there was a lot of censoring. Maybe the BD release will change your opinion.
 
12-25-11, 10:59 AM

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Why does it matter if Fate/Zero is shounen or seinen?
 
12-25-11, 11:00 AM

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sallym613 said:
Solkiskey said:
Most of this anime was just macho talk and stupid strategies. Still enjoyed it though.

*lifts eyebrow* "Stupid strategies"...lol?
Well it's still much better than powerups (which I've seen too often in shounen) :P


Stupid strategies. Just look at episode 5.
 
12-25-11, 11:19 AM

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Solkiskey said:
sallym613 said:
Solkiskey said:
Most of this anime was just macho talk and stupid strategies. Still enjoyed it though.

*lifts eyebrow* "Stupid strategies"...lol?
Well it's still much better than powerups (which I've seen too often in shounen) :P


Stupid strategies. Just look at episode 5.


Are you referring to how Rider interrupted Lancer's and Saber's fight..and decided to call out all of the other servants after lol? It certainly wasn't the smartest thing to do, but that's part of Rider's personality. I personally find what he did hilarious.
 
12-25-11, 11:38 AM

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Solkiskey said:
Stupid strategies. Just look at episode 5.


...what?

Kirei/Tokiomi: carefully studying the situation. Tokiomi even withdrew Gilgamesh.
Kiritsugu: Trying to snipe a master, but unable to when other servants arrived, using Saber without telling her his plan (because she'll oppose him).
Rider: Purposefully drawing the whole bunch into to study them and have Waver read their Stats (Masters can do that), after negotiations failed. The result? It worked.
Kayneth: Hiding (smart move) until Waver arrived with Rider. Yeah, he came out to pressure his student because he IS a jerkass and is angry about the Alexander theft.
Kariya: ...half insane and in pain, jumps the gun when Tokiomi's Servant appears.

Aside of Kayneth and Kariya (because the worm induced madness), all the others were doing smooth moves.

Kayneth's even can be excused because he thought Iri was the Master (and she admitted she didn't have skill for combat, meaning Kiritsugu's trap worked).
 
12-25-11, 11:49 AM

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Thess said:

Rider: Purposefully drawing the whole bunch into to study them and have Waver read their Stats (Masters can do that), after negotiations failed. The result? It worked.


Oh. Why haven't I thought that? I thought Rider did it because he's...Rider xD;
But yeah that makes sense.

Though I would say doing that was still kind of reckless and risky at the same time.
 
12-25-11, 11:55 AM

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Hahaha, totally left it at a cliffhangar. That will get a highly anticipated 2nd season.
The wait begins. =.=
 
12-25-11, 12:10 PM

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god that was the biggest cliffhanger ive seen in a while
i dont think I can survive the wait
and btw this series gets a 10/10 for being the most awesome show yet
 
12-25-11, 12:10 PM

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sallym613 said:
Oh. Why haven't I thought that? I thought Rider did it because he's...Rider xD;
But yeah that makes sense.

Though I would say doing that was still kind of reckless and risky at the same time.


His weakness is more his good nature, those actions were a good move since he got to study Berserker and Gilgamesh. If it hadn't been for Tokiomi's intervention, Gil would have revealed more of his Noble Phantasm.

Rider was carefully assessing the situation. He goaded and drew the others in. Except for Caster, who WAS smart to be out the range with his crystal ball (until the JEANNE JEANNE stuff got to him to act carelessly) and Assassin.
 
12-25-11, 12:27 PM

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Thess said:
sallym613 said:
Oh. Why haven't I thought that? I thought Rider did it because he's...Rider xD;
But yeah that makes sense.

Though I would say doing that was still kind of reckless and risky at the same time.


His weakness is more his good nature, those actions were a good move since he got to study Berserker and Gilgamesh. If it hadn't been for Tokiomi's intervention, Gil would have revealed more of his Noble Phantasm.

Rider was carefully assessing the situation. He goaded and drew the others in. Except for Caster, who WAS smart to be out the range with his crystal ball (until the JEANNE JEANNE stuff got to him to act carelessly) and Assassin.


True. He did benefit from that. Unfortunately for him, nobody could read Berserker's stats...but at least he was able to observe Berserker's abilities and attacks.

I just initially didn't think there would be a benefit from jumping in the middle of the battle and goading the other servants hiding...except to make the other servants get over-confident and annoyed to the point that they're more likely to do irrational things. But thanks for your insight.


Rider's good nature is what makes him so likeable and awesome <3
 
12-25-11, 12:56 PM

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Okay, that cliffhanger was just mean. :<

Can't wait for season 2.
 
12-25-11, 12:57 PM

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Best of the season.
 
12-25-11, 1:11 PM

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Thess said:

Rider: Purposefully drawing the whole bunch into to study them and have Waver read their Stats (Masters can do that), after negotiations failed. The result? It worked.

Fanboys are so funny. Believing that studying your opponents is beneficent over letting one of them eliminate another... applauds.

Seriously, shounen approach of the servants, as well as their futile attitude to this "war" downrated this season for me.

Characters definitely were not clever whenever it came to fighting. Otherwise it would have already resolved.
Modified by Alrick, 12-25-11, 2:12 PM
 
12-25-11, 1:37 PM

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Alrick said:
Thess said:

Rider: Purposefully drawing the whole bunch into to study them and have Waver read their Stats (Masters can do that), after negotiations failed. The result? It worked.

Fanboys are so funny. Believing that studying your opponents is beneficent over letting one of them eliminate another... applauds.

Seriously, shounen approach of the servants, as well as their futile attitude to this "war" downrated this season for me.

Characters definitely were not clever whenever it came to fighting. Otherwise it would already resolved.

ohh yeah couldnt agree more.
Saber:"ohhlancer you are so great"
Lancer:"stop it saber you make me blush haha"
Iskandar:"I iskandar the great annouce that we are bff"
Gilgamesh:"What are you looking at? It s not like i brought the delicious wine from my endless treasures for you or something"

*pukkke*
I think fate stay night was better in that regard. at least i cant remmeber that it was that bad.
 
12-25-11, 1:40 PM

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Yay @ the cliffhanger that we won't get an answer for until spring. Yay.

Not that it matters, still a 10/10 for me. Best anime of the season and one of my favorites this year.
 
12-25-11, 2:37 PM

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Alrick said:
Thess said:

Rider: Purposefully drawing the whole bunch into to study them and have Waver read their Stats (Masters can do that), after negotiations failed. The result? It worked.

Fanboys are so funny. Believing that studying your opponents is beneficent over letting one of them eliminate another... applauds.

Seriously, shounen approach of the servants, as well as their futile attitude to this "war" downrated this season for me.

Characters definitely were not clever whenever it came to fighting. Otherwise it would have already resolved.


I think this is what Thess meant by Rider's weakness. His good, though overconfident nature is the reason why Rider decided to stop Lancer's and Saber's fight. Not saying that it's the smart thing to do. But that Rider is overconfident in his strength, to the point that he doesn't feel the need to destroy all servants right away. Not to mention that he, more than almost anything, likes to have a good battle with strong servants..which is an once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for him. This doesn't mean that he doesn't want to win the Grail. But he's a rather straightforward guy, especially in fights.

In addition, we're not saying that it's any better to study servants' ranks than to have them eliminate each other. Rider's plan did have flaws because his plan is based on his assumption that there will be at least one servant who would answer to his "call" (or however you call it). Luckily for him, Gilgamesh took his bait due to his ego. If someone like Gilgamesh wasn't there, I think Rider's plan would have failed.

Anyhow, because of that, this caused a chain reaction, where Berserker was summoned in response to Gilgamesh's appearance. Luckily for Rider, due to Gilgamesh's huge pride and Kariya's grudge against Tokiomi, he was able to witness their power through their battle to some extent. From that, he could make future preparations if he needed to face them sometime in the future.

Again, Rider didn't have the best plan, but he was able to benefit from it.

So I guess you can say that strategy isn't the only factor to consider in the Grail War. There's also other factors like luck (as evidenced by Kiritsugu almost shooting Kayneth at the scene, which would have been a costly mistake).


I would go on further and both sides of the argument have interesting points. But, I think it'll be a good idea to hold off this debate until we all have seen the second half in the spring. And when most of us have read Fate/Zero in its entirety. Because I feel like there's no point debating on different things (ex. Whether Fate/Zero is shounen or seinen) about Fate/Zero if we all haven't seen it as a whole yet.
 
12-25-11, 2:51 PM

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Alrick said:
Fanboys are so funny. Believing that studying your opponents is beneficent over letting one of them eliminate another... applauds.

Seriously, shounen approach of the servants, as well as their futile attitude to this "war" downrated this season for me.


I'm a fanGIRL. If you want to do ad hominem, please get it right or STFU.

Rider doesn't want to eliminate them, have you paid attention? His whole character was built in conquest and have the defeated parties JOIN him (and he grows in power when they do because they join his NP!) for the pursuit of his dreams. If they had adapted the dream properly this episode (sadly, it was chopped), you've had seen him doing this in the past and pulling it off successfully. He’s the only Servant with a "shounen" attitude and that's supposed to be a flaw (although it's endearing, I admit). He's a brilliant strategist (he's been the one who simply ended the episode 5 conflict because he wanted), but his good natured personality clashes with the mood. The only reason why he took down Assassin was because (again was adapted poorly in this sense) they were endangering Waver's life (and he was slightly drunk and irate).

Assassin was forced to sacrifice themselves as pigs to the slaughter.
Lancer and Saber are being chivalrous because both are knights, they have a strong code to follow (they are Lawful in alignment guys). They have no qualms to kill each other as long it's fair. This creates conflict with their Masters. Kiritsugu in particular.
Berserker is... Berserker. He's without sanity. That's the point.
Gilgamesh couldn't give a damn about the Holy Grail War until he met Kirei and had the feast of kings with Rider and Saber. And what does he do? He has Kotomine find out more about the Masters with his Assassin scouts. He's shrew when he wants to be.
Caster was keeping his low profile as he built his lair (which is the specialty of the Casters) before he lost it with Arthuria's resemblance to Jeanne. He's also insane.

It's not the Servants who plot, outside of Rider and Caster (and occasionally Gilgamesh), it's the *Masters* who do that.


Oldy said:
*pukkke*
I think fate stay night was better in that regard. at least i cant remmeber that it was that bad.


Okay... you're probably not familiar with FSN Visual Novel, only with the shitty DEEN QUALITY anime but the last route (the one that ACTUALLY resolves the whole plot built up and addressed in Fate/Zero) makes it all about the Masters, the Servants are actually...


In the other routes where the Masters weren't aware of shit, the Servants led them on (with the exception of Kotomine, who knew what he was doing) and Ataraxia, where Bazett is alive and tears a new hole into everyone in the 5th Holy Grail (it was probably a good reason why she had to be eliminated before the war began, because it would have changed the plot drastically), because she is kind of like Kiritsugu and Kotomine a magi-killer.
Modified by Thess, 12-25-11, 2:59 PM
 
12-25-11, 3:01 PM

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Thess said:
Alrick said:
Fanboys are so funny. Believing that studying your opponents is beneficent over letting one of them eliminate another... applauds.

Seriously, shounen approach of the servants, as well as their futile attitude to this "war" downrated this season for me.


I'm a fanGIRL. If you want to do ad hominem, please get it right or STFU.


Calm down Thess. I dont think Alrick knew you were female, especially since you never indicate that on your profile. I thought you were male too...until just now lol. No offense intended at all.
 
12-25-11, 3:21 PM

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@sallym613: Well, I am calm. I was just insulting Alrick's pitiful attempt to insult.

Also, since I misunderstood you, Oldy. I thought you tried to say why do the Servants don't plot stuff. Because the ones who lead the war are usually the Masters... Exceptions happen (Rider-Waver one DOES have a purpose).

Oldy said:

ohh yeah couldnt agree more.
Saber:"ohhlancer you are so great"
Lancer:"stop it saber you make me blush haha"
Iskandar:"I iskandar the great annouce that we are bff"
Gilgamesh:"What are you looking at? It s not like i brought the delicious wine from my endless treasures for you or something"


The Masters in FSN took this role from the Servants:

Shirou: STOP SEIBA!!
Rin: DON’T KILL SHIROU, ARCHAA!!
Illya: Let’s leave now, BASAKAAA. I am bored.
Shinji: Who wants an alliance with me?
Caster (she counts here): /let's potential enemies go all the time.
Kotomine: trollol Lancer, I order you to fight with everyone without defeating them. /command seals him.

Fake Assassin was the same with Saber as Zero Lancer was, for the record. He even stopped her from revealing herself because someone might be watching them. HONOR!

Saber was more serious and unhappy, but it's understandable.



Meanwhile, Berserker was pretty much the same: mindless. Lancer WANTED to be serious, but Kirei trolled him by using him as scout (as he did with Assassin). Caster was scheming all right, because Kuzuki didn’t give a damn about the Grail (similar to 4th Caster if he hadn't been JEANNEing). Archer just wanted to kill Shirou. He schemed for this purpose, nothing to do with the Grail. Rider only wants to keep Sakura safe.

The only pair that was full stop serious business in the 5th Grail War were Bazett and Avenger in Fate/Hollow Ataraxia. Dark Sakura and Saber Alter, and Zouken and Assassin count too.

Let's wait for the uncut episodes. The scene of the Mad Feast of Kings, for instance, has Tokiomi going: "How can they drink together…" Sighing in his basement at their behavior.

Interesting fact that the second grail war was a fine mess and drew the attention of the Church to moderate the ritual. Servants and Masters turning against each other.
Modified by Thess, 12-25-11, 3:32 PM
 
12-25-11, 3:43 PM

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Bleh, what a cliffhanger.

Good thing they added a Visual preview this time for the long wait.
 
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