Spotlight Character: Lafiel Abriel (Seikai series) MAL Character Information Page: Lafiel "Abriel Nei Debrusc Borl Paryun Lafiel" Abriel MAL Favorites: 258 Original Spotlight thread: Lafiel (Crest/Banner of the Stars) For the next two weeks I would like to have everyone familiar with this character discuss what they think makes it an exceptional character. What attributes make it stand out in the ocean of interesting characters that exist in the realms of anime and manga. Unlike the other two subjects I will not force this conversation to fall into any set structure. Characters that are nominated typically get here because they are adept at breaking the existing character moulds and defying definition. Because of this freedom I encourage everyone to do their very best to stay on topic and keep any and all debate civil. Have fun and I look forward to seeing what everyone has to say about this character. RESULTS OF THE RE-VOTE POLL Lafiel Abriel was PERMANENTLY inducted into the club Character list: 31 Yes - 96.8% 1 No - 3.1% 29 Don't know this character - 45.3% of the total number polled 3 Abstained - 4.6% of the total number polled --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RESULTS OF THE RE-VOTE POLL Lafiel Abriel REMAINS in the club Character list: 23 Yes - 85.1% 4 No - 14.8% 35 Don't know this character - 53.0% of the total number polled 4 Abstained - 6.0% of the total number polled On 02/03/2012 Lafiel Abriel will receive a re-vote --------------------------------------------------------------------------- RESULTS OF THE RESURRECTION POLL Lafiel Abriel was inducted into the club Character list: 24 Yes - 85.7% 4 No - 14.2% 35 Don't know this character - 53.8% of the total number polled 2 Abstained - 3.0% of the total number polled On 07/29/2011 Lafiel Abriel will receive a re-vote |
santetjanFeb 7, 2012 6:23 AM
| You do not beg the sun for mercy. |
| We need a Banners of the Stars IV... To people who are going to vote "no", better give me a good reason... |
| Even when I was in crowd, I was always alone |
| About as easy a yes as Aria. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| greatest female character |
BigSimo said: greatest female character Wellll, that is debatable... |
| Even when I was in crowd, I was always alone |
Confucius said: BigSimo said: greatest female character Wellll, that is debatable... Not really... In anime at least. |
 In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
Jacut said: Not really... In anime at least. Based on the first season, yes, she has plenty of competition. But she is miles above most female characters, and ignoring the pointless gender rhetoric we constantly end up on in this club, she is a great character outright. An easy yes from me. |
Lind_L_Tailor said: Jacut said: Not really... In anime at least. Based on the first season, yes, she has plenty of competition. But she is miles above most female characters, and ignoring the pointless gender rhetoric we constantly end up on in this club, she is a great character outright. An easy yes from me. Her character isn't inconsistent like Holo from Spice and Wolf. God curse those Animators for what they did to her... |
| Even when I was in crowd, I was always alone |
Confucius said: I'm not really seeing how Holo is inconsistent, or how that has anything to do with the comment of mine you quoted.Lind_L_Tailor said: Jacut said: Not really... In anime at least. Based on the first season, yes, she has plenty of competition. But she is miles above most female characters, and ignoring the pointless gender rhetoric we constantly end up on in this club, she is a great character outright. An easy yes from me. Her character isn't inconsistent like Holo from Spice and Wolf. God curse those Animators for what they did to her... Of course that could just be because I had about a year between each series and something of a fuzzy memory of the first upon watching the second. |
| As I've only seen Crest of the Stars and that I have vague memories of it, I'll have to abstain on this one since the best of her characterization is supposedly in the second series which I won't have time to see. However, from what I've seen, and as Santetjan noted in the IRC, is that Lafiel is excellent in her duo with Jinto, but no as excellent when you look at her character only. What I mean is that most of her characterization was made possible because Jinto was here to "force" her development.Of course, I found those discussions to be one of the highlight of this series (Most notably the scene where they talk in the bedroom), but I have a hard time with inducting characters that are kind of dependent on another one. |
| -Fixing- |
Wilio said: As I've only seen Crest of the Stars and that I have vague memories of it, I'll have to abstain on this one since the best of her characterization is supposedly in the second series which I won't have time to see. However, from what I've seen, and as Santetjan noted in the IRC, is that Lafiel is excellent in her duo with Jinto, but no as excellent when you look at her character only. What I mean is that most of her characterization was made possible because Jinto was here to "force" her development.Of course, I found those discussions to be one of the highlight of this series (Most notably the scene where they talk in the bedroom), but I have a hard time with inducting characters that are kind of dependent on another one. I find this argument ridiculous. By going with this train of thought then Griffith and Guts wouldn't be on this list, as most of their development was dependent on each other. Also, Johan Liebert shouldn't be on this list considering much of his development is dependent on Anna and Tenma. Spike shouldn't be on the relations list because of his past with Viciious and so on. The point I'm making is that most characters have someone that their development goes hand in hand with, relationships are what shapes us after all. How can you fault a character when that is how it is for all of us? Jacut said: Confucius said: BigSimo said: greatest female character Wellll, that is debatable... Not really... In anime at least. I can name plenty of female characters that are as great if not greater than Lafiel, Horo being one of them. But, at the end of the day that's merely opinion and, well, I'm sure you can see where I'm going from here.. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
Lind_L_Tailor said: I'm not really seeing how Holo is inconsistent, or how that has anything to do with the comment of mine you quoted. Of course that could just be because I had about a year between each series and something of a fuzzy memory of the first upon watching the second. Holo in season two feels like some archetype helpless girl, not the witty wolf I know in season one. Perhaps my opinion will change when the dub comes out insan3soldiern said: I find this argument ridiculous. By going with this train of thought then Griffith and Guts wouldn't be on this list, as most of their development was dependent on each other. I haven't seen Berserk yet so I can't comment insan3soldiern said: Also, Johan Liebert shouldn't be on this list considering much of his development is dependent on Anna and Tenma. I disagree, I think Johan was already a powerful character without Tenma or Anna. Actually Anna doesn't even play a part on why he was inducted. Spike shouldn't be on the relations list because of his past with Viciious and so on. Is it wrong that I think Spike got in because the complements are the Bebop crew? Especially Faye... insan3soldiern said: The point I'm making is that most characters have someone that their development goes hand in hand with, relationships are what shapes us after all. How can you fault a character when that is how it is for all of us? This is better. Although I wouldn't use inducted characters as comparison. I mean just look at some of our inductions in the Anime relations, we got Gunbuster on the list... I have a sneaking guess that perhaps Guts and Griffith is the perfect example, but since I have no knowledge of Berserk my words are worthless. |
| Even when I was in crowd, I was always alone |
insan3soldiern said: Wilio said: As I've only seen Crest of the Stars and that I have vague memories of it, I'll have to abstain on this one since the best of her characterization is supposedly in the second series which I won't have time to see. However, from what I've seen, and as Santetjan noted in the IRC, is that Lafiel is excellent in her duo with Jinto, but no as excellent when you look at her character only. What I mean is that most of her characterization was made possible because Jinto was here to "force" her development.Of course, I found those discussions to be one of the highlight of this series (Most notably the scene where they talk in the bedroom), but I have a hard time with inducting characters that are kind of dependent on another one. I find this argument ridiculous. By going with this train of thought then Griffith and Guts wouldn't be on this list, as most of their development was dependent on each other. Also, Johan Liebert shouldn't be on this list considering much of his development is dependent on Anna and Tenma. Spike shouldn't be on the relations list because of his past with Viciious and so on. The point I'm making is that most characters have someone that their development goes hand in hand with, relationships are what shapes us after all. How can you fault a character when that is how it is for all of us? Well here’s the thing, You give a fine example of characters relations, but you completely missed what I meant by “dependant” or “force”. Let’s take for example Griffith and Guts. It is true that two together is a big part of the characterization, but it is by no mean dependant. These characters were already moulded even before they actually met. You have to remind me, because I clearly see no dependence in characterization between these two. They are great characters, and it is not necessarily because one is “forcing” it to the other. Now, I feel different with Lafiel. The problem with Lafiel is that her characterization was almost, if not totally, made through the relation she had with Jinto (For example the way she perceive humans). Without Jinto, she would have remain a completely normal tsundere Princess. Now of course, I’ll be glad if some examples in the series that contradict what I said could be given. |
| -Fixing- |
| All I'm going to say is you need to see Banner of the Stars, where Lafiel becomes captain of her own ship and Banner of the Stars II, where she spends a good percentage of the time away from Jinto, before you can effectively judge her character as being completely dependent on him. It should be noted you can say the same for him as well. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| Yeah, I'd argue the pointlessness of the dependency argument, because it seems to go under the principle that a good character has to be unaffected by the story or circumstances around it, and then I'd ask, "What exactly are you judging a good character on, then? Novelty?" Lafiel is a great character because she reacts to her environment in an understandable manner, but when that's disrupted (Jinto) she has to readjust and start examining her principles. That she would just stubbornly stay the same would turn her into most of those stoic characters that most of us hate so much, and then I'd argue that Lafiel, would effectively transform from a protagonist in the story to an antagonist. But maybe that's what some people felt like they were missing from the Crest/Banner series in the first place: concrete antagonists. |
| Now, what I was first and foremost pointing towards is how the entirety of Seikai is shaped around the explanation of an unknown place, time and people by means of an extended set of discussions between its two main characters. Only in the later instalments of the series does the focus shift to one less squarely on the mystery of Abh and more on the common character-driven element - and, perhaps not surprisingly, it is here where critical acclaim starts to falter as well. All things considered, the initial Seikai instalments are least are the tale of Ghintec, the archetypal stranger in a strange land, who does not know up from down and has to be taught all about this strange new land by one of its inhabitants - Lamhirh. Throughout, Lamhirh is presented as the quintessential Abh, perhaps the only one who acts like Abh should act: It's made quite clear that many of the supporting characters (Feubdach, Spaurh, the Bibauth brothers) are actually somewhat deviant and quite different from what a civilised member of the Empire of Mankind should be (and, hence, given a glorious position in the provinces or the Laburec, far away from the political centre). This presentation only makes sense within the context of her explaining what is and is not proper. As Wilio pointed out, without this context we'd be left with little more than a set of characteristics, displayed in a void. It is also necessary for the person she is talking to to be like Ghintec is: Were that person Abh, she'd need not explain; were that person an antagonistic Lander, there would be no tutoring. This is, in fact, readily visible when one considers her interactions with others, as this is far less dynamic and would even be incomprehensible had we not witnessed the earlier explanations given to Ghintec. The result is that Lamhirh is a marvellous portrayal of a Princess of the Empire. She might be one of the most convincing depictions ever made of someone truly alien and not wholly human. On the other hand, this realisation is completely dependent on there being a less exotic other to present herself to, making her in this sense truly a title (Abh, Boerh, loüass) - and thus, story element - before a character. All this being said, though, there is such a strong fusion of example and actual character at work here that the two are being inseparable. Lamhirh's joy at being just another officer to Ghintec when he first meets her - as she should be, according to Abh protocol, but is never really considered to be because of political reality - is both observation Abh culture and simply solid characterisation, and it is by simple things as this that a fusion is realised between exploration of background and storytelling. So, with the reservation that I believe that much (perhaps overly much) of what we see of Lamhirh is too narrowly the result of her interaction with one very specific other, necessary for the sake of the series but not so much for her characterisation, I believe the utmost is done to add a personal touch to all this, making her 'well played' as well as 'well crafted'. |
| You do not beg the sun for mercy. |
| How about Holo and Lawrence? They complement each other well. Although they are a poor example since Holo didn't get inducted... |
| Even when I was in crowd, I was always alone |
| A belated reply - and one hardly relevant for this spotlight: No, the entirety of the non-background-driven plot of S&W was the result of the singular interaction between Lorenz and Horo. These two depend far more on each other for any characterisation than Ghintec and Lamhirh do, even if the same situation (local and stranger) applies. While I can see, to an extent, Lamhirh separated from the general story, I wouldn't be able to do so for Horo - Lorenz would be an interesting question, really. |
| You do not beg the sun for mercy. |
| My only real gripe is that I'd like to see Lafiel's complete metamorphosis from an Ahb Princess too a dynamic individual women. I just wanted more out Seikai no Senki III. I'll probably still vote yes for her induction, some of the other arguments here helped jog my memory as to her being a major reason for me liking the series. Santetjan pointed out their effectiveness in making her truly alien. It was this aspect and her subsequent human education by Jinto that originally kept me watching. |
Jacut said: Confucius said: BigSimo said: greatest female character Wellll, that is debatable... Not really... In anime at least. Yes, but some characters are hard to compare. also thoits an opinion its undeniable. can you name a female anime character who competes with lafiel? |
archindar said: Jacut said: Confucius said: BigSimo said: greatest female character Wellll, that is debatable... Not really... In anime at least. Yes, but some characters are hard to compare. also thoits an opinion its undeniable. can you name a female anime character who competes with lafiel? Motoko Kusanagi, she is so cool she gets her own song: Lithium Flower |
| Even when I was in crowd, I was always alone |
| Lafiel is certainly the best of her style of character, at the very least. I don't see how Major Motoko is comparable. The most obvious comparison is Holo, but we've been here already. |
Lind_L_Tailor said: Lafiel is certainly the best of her style of character, at the very least. I don't see how Major Motoko is comparable. The most obvious comparison is Holo, but we've been here already. Oh I thought it was a style irrelevance comparison. If we are indeed comparing the same style, then she may as well be. |
| Even when I was in crowd, I was always alone |
Lind_L_Tailor said: Lafiel is certainly the best of her style of character, at the very least. I don't see how Major Motoko is comparable. The most obvious comparison is Holo, but we've been here already. i never liked the holo comparison, mostly because lafiel is so hard to compete with(it just makes holo look bad) i can half accept this motoko comparison, but no matter how i angle Confucius said: Lind_L_Tailor said: Lafiel is certainly the best of her style of character, at the very least. no its ok to name motoko, shes well liked and is sci fi so i can see where your coming from. they dont have similar roles tho... yet imo lafiel would still win(and tho its really just an opinion, by a land slide). what i dont like is this holo comparison. I don't see how Major Motoko is comparable. The most obvious comparison is Holo, but we've been here already. Oh I thought it was a style irrelevance comparison. If we are indeed comparing the same style, then she may as well be. no its ok to name motoko, shes well liked and is sci fi so i can see where your coming from. they dont have similar roles tho... yet imo lafiel would still win(and tho its really just an opinion, by a land slide). what i dont like is this holo comparison. it just doesnt sit right.if you were to break them down holo is aged with experience and does stuff with trade. lafiel on the other hard is vary young and has nothing to really compare to holo. |
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