Kuudere/Dandere/Emotionless discussion topic

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I have this one idea based on a few generalised traits I believe a kuudere should have, as I probably believe an emotionless girl is pretty easy to spot ..

That way we could even see how much of a kuudere these girls can be, and who knows? we could even create a score table for the ultimate kuudere listed on KDEGL, you know, like kuudere among kuudere? Daikuudere anyone?

anyway, the list of my proposed criteria goes as follows:

Personality
Monotony: Degree of expressiveness, voice pitch, daily activities.
Melancholy: Degree of loneliness, background is important
Assertivity: Not easily moved by (..?), wins an argument with ease.

Character
Visual Cold %: anything involving cold colors on clothes, hair, eyes (blue vs green, gray ..?).
Status: Self-sufficiency (can solo a lot of bad guys on her own, for example.), abilities (this is probably related to the type, she has a gun?, she has an annoying sidekick?), impression (mysterious, doesn't likes unnecesary attention).
Type: Character role likeliness to be cool, Ojou-sama, expert on science, android/cyborg (goth loli .. ?)
(It will be hard to figure out which one is the "coolest" among them all, though ..)

Development:
Main character vs. Follower:
Which one is most suited for a kuudere?
Screentime:
Just to what extent is she featured on the anime?
(a character whose role is more relevant to the plot will get a higher score.)
Dere factor:
She opens to someone revealing a tender side of her personality.

I would need to keep on elaborating but this is all I can think of in regards of kuudere. Things between parenthesis are open to discussion .. it's going to take a while to gather up enough information and all.

Jun 2, 2010 4:24 PM

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MondaiNashi, this is what I was hoping for. This is really what I was going for in criteria and statuses. You are awesome lol. :) And I don't mind for more details too since because I like categorizing in a lot of different aspects about a character.

So, should we do this in ABC order by their sur names first? I think that would be the best to go with for when we start categorizing them. But yeah, its going to take a while when it comes to information but this can be pretty epic though and you hit a lot of key points that I want to categorized already so we are off a good start for now. And this data is for each character correct? Because I want to implement all those traits for each character even if its a lot to talk about but I think that's the fun part of it.

ZettaiRyouki, should we go all out with what MondaiNashi said? Those 3 catergories and what went with them for each character? If yes, we should start with someone that we are all familiar with to see how it will work. Like Yuki Nagato. If you guys think that's too much information for one character I wont mind if we go for less key points about a character.

I'm also pretty excited about this topic too lol. I look forward to when its fully completed. :)

Jun 2, 2010 5:59 PM

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If that's alright let's develop the criteria we have to this point.

it's important to set a parametric scale to determine how high each girl can score on "our" prototypical "perfect" kuudere model. I say "our" and "perfect" because this is obviously a very subjective matter, and we can only hope that our likings are refined enough to reach some sort of consensus ..

zOMG ENMA AI WINS FOREVER! (lol, biased.)

The one above is an example of the kind of things that can cause a lot of disruption on the process. So let's try to refrain from favoritism for the time being and focus on the prototype.

Now for the first point at hand, Monotony.

We should all rate the character based on the aforementioned criteria: from 1 to 5

-Degree of expressiveness-
Crying (..?)
Smiling (..?)
Gestures (..?)
Facial expressions (..?)
Pose and stance (..?)

We have to determine to what degree a girl is permitted to display emotional behavior without becoming histrionic, or overly emotional. To achieve this, people who watched the anime would need to spot the emotional peaks taking in consideration her behavior throughout the series.
(If any of these proves true for the character at any given time, it will lower her score? (1=invariably emotional) (5=absolutely deadpan))

-Voice pitch-
Mechanic (..?)
Boku-ko like (..?)
Fragile (..?)
Normal (..?)
Mixed (..?)

OK, you would know each anime girl has her very own voice, these being actually very similar amongst seiyuu and each one having their own particular shape, pitch, and nuance, I listed a few you should recognize.
(How many different kind of voices might a kuudere have? which one is the most representative for our perfect model? we need to give each one of these a value from 1 to 5 (1=invariably off character) (5=absolutely befitting))

-Daily activities-
Eccentric (..?)
Physical training (..?)
Mentally challenging (..?)
Routinary (..?)
Mixed (..?)

Here, we consider her everyday life, what kind of activities she enjoys, and what her hobbies are, this could be a job or whatever kind of activity she would easily relate to.
(What kind of hobbies might a kuudere have? which one is the most representative for our perfect model, we need to give each one of these a value from 1 to 5 (1=invariably off character) (5=absolutely befitting))

upon deciding on these criteria we should be able to give her a grade between 1-5, if we really should have it to become more democratic, we could set specific members to rate the girl themselves based on the predetermined evaluation method and then obtain an average score from the participants' grades.

The result will be the score given for the first criterion. Monotony, namely recurrent and persistent preferences for specific, repeatitive behavior that we obviously love.

Your thoughts on my parametric scale?

Jun 2, 2010 9:16 PM

Alycen

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You make it sound like these kind of girl only exist in anime and manga when obviously not =/.

Jun 2, 2010 11:27 PM

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Excellent, that's the kind of stuff I expected. Good work!

@EtherSword: Yes, surname first. That's how our database does it, right? This way we'll be consistent.

@MondaiNashi: Good job! I think those categories seem pretty good. Some are subjective, but that's how things work sometimes.

For expresiveness, I guess the timing counts too? We can't chastise a girl who smiles at the last episode because of character development, right? I mean, she should get less than one who stays "cool" all the way through, but more than one who becomes a bit more emotional halfway and stays that way until the end.

As for characters, Yuki is a good choice, but there's a minor problem with her, and that's... well... Disappearance/Book 4. Guess that shouldn't count when ranking her?

Jun 3, 2010 1:06 AM

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ZettaiRyouiki said:
@MondaiNashi: Good job! I think those categories seem pretty good. Some are subjective, but that's how things work sometimes.

And that's exactly why, we are in dire need of a more objective selection system, of course mine is a very daring proposal in the sense that setting fixed values for behavior and enclosing all known variants into categories might be unfair for those whose preferences just differ from the norm, but what I mean by this is that we shouldn't focus that much on what we like and keep everything within the "ideal" concept of the archetype to measure each individual girl's potential.

I guess if we just went on trying to think of reasons why our favorite girls shouldn't be in disadvantage we will hardly achieve anything.

I feel like I should address a very punctual problem, which is actually the same topic I brought up back then, this one thing about how can you tell whether a girl is too emotional to be listed.

Last time I though about Chizuru from Seitokai no Ichizon, we have a girl who meets the kuudere requirements, she has the personality and the dere moment, but then again she's not really emotionless, or even devoid of emotional awareness, but even then we can only say that she's just "a bit too normal"

Even if that's the case, we have Senjougahara, who is actually the same as her and Chizuru is the one who doesn't makes it to the list, why is this?

What's the factor that segregates Hitagi from Chizuru? That's what I'm looking for to clear up the subjectivity gap in here.

I'm sure that there have to be many examples like this, Rima from Vampire Knight, she's "practically" apathetic and cool, but perhaps because she's from a shoujo anime her personality won't completely adapt to the "moe" typology because she's just "a bit too normal" starting off by the fact that she doesn't has the typical role while she still keeps the archetype demeanor.

Moreover, she's probably never a dere anyway, nor emotionless, but it might seem unfair that such a wonderful goth loli character has to be left out even when her personality holds a great potential.

Summary:

emotionless vs. emotional lesser

emotionless = cool - emotional awareness
emotional lesser = cool + emotional awareness

emotional awareness = (..?)

emotionless = O
cool with dere = O
cool without dere = X (..?)
emotional lesser with dere = O/X
emotional lesser without dere = X (..?)

Jun 3, 2010 6:15 AM

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MondaiNashi said:

And that's exactly why, we are in dire need of a more objective selection system, of course mine is a very daring proposal in the sense that setting fixed values for behavior and enclosing all known variants into categories might be unfair for those whose preferences just differ from the norm, but what I mean by this is that we shouldn't focus that much on what we like and keep everything within the "ideal" concept of the archetype to measure each individual girl's potential.

I guess if we just went on trying to think of reasons why our favorite girls shouldn't be in disadvantage we will hardly achieve anything.

Exactly. While not the best, we should strive to design a system as "objective" as possible.

As for Chizuru vs. Hitagi, well, I never really felt Chizuru was "cool", or at least, not to the extent Hitagi is. I guess she counts, I suppose, but she's not the greatest example of the "kuudere" archetype.

Also, how do dandere go? We've covered only kuudere so far, and emotionless should be rather straightforward, but dandere...

Jun 3, 2010 8:06 AM

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ZettaiRyouiki said:

As for characters, Yuki is a good choice, but there's a minor problem with her, and that's... well... Disappearance/Book 4. Guess that shouldn't count when ranking her?

I guess, we can come back to her with editing her data when more plot development happens for her. Which will probably happen with other characters too.

I'm also not really familiar with the term dandere still, even though I have characters that I like fit the term but I'm not really good when it comes to pointing them out, I usually go with my feelings about them.

So far I agree with everything you guys are saying. And about the Chizuru and Hitagi, I think the proper way to see it, is like some sort of "scale" seeing if the character fits the term well enough to be worthy on the list.

Jun 3, 2010 8:14 AM

#10

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EtherSword, I take you haven't read Book 4? Because... Well... The situation there is complicated...

Yeah, dandere is tough, if only because it's an even less known term than kuudere.

The sliding scale idea is good. So Hitagi is more kuudere than Chizuru, even if they're similar character-wise.

Jun 3, 2010 9:51 AM

#11

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I haven't read the book, I like waiting for anime adaptions for sound, color, etc (most of the time). So, should we start with Yuki first then or someone else? I like the layout we have so far that MondaiNashi came up with. I think we are ready for inputting details for Yuki (if we are still going for her first). I think I'll go first for rating the degree of expressiveness.

-Yuki Nagato-
-Degree of expressiveness-
Crying 5
Smiling 5
Gestures 5
Facial expressions 5
Pose and stance 5

I almost wanted to give her a 4 for gesture but comparing her to other kuuderes, she pretty much a 5. Anyways, does my scoring seem correct?

Jun 3, 2010 10:31 AM

#12

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Well, actually I was more inclined to make degree of expressiveness a unique score, as in, after considering how many times the different variants were observed in the anime, a certain number would be deducted from the score.

Example:

I didn't personally observed anything emotional but I would probably substract a bit because of the God Knows performance, she looked a bit too genki on 20:19.

*provides imagery as a plus*

So I say -1 because of pose and stance.

Nothing else I can give her as a penalty, so I'm giving her 4 out of 5 on this one.

(this is obviously an example though, there hasn't been a single time I had seen Nagato do something other than being completely emotionless and methodical in terms of expression, although I haven't really watched all of Haruhi <<stopped after Endless 8>>)

That's how I personally intended that to work. But anyway, Nagato gets a 5 from me on the first one.

If anything we should be making a list with all of the expressive qualities that might negatively affect a kuudere's score on this one, and then give each one a determined penalty based on how much it actually affects the model.

I guess crying would be much more negative than smiling? or maybe it's the other way around? I need your help to decide on this, such as

Crying (-2) would be a -2 penalty
Smiling (-.5) would be a 0.5 penalty

And so on.

Jun 3, 2010 12:04 PM

#13

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I would say smiling is a 0.5 negative since crying is a lot more rare even though it sometimes the complete opposite for other kuuderes, its just that more of them do show a smile than them crying overall. Yuki hasn't shown either so far, I don't know about the books but I guess ZettaiRyouki can help us out there (without spoiling of course lol). Also, its not necessarily a bad thing if a kuudere cries or smiles since it sometimes important for plot development or that is part of their character. But I still agree with the penalties since this is the proper way to rate someone. I think a smile or 2 wouldn't be enough for a penalty but crying should definitely count always though, maybe it depnds on the impact of the scene? But like you said, not sure which one should be the 0.5 and the -2.

MondaiNashi said:
Well, actually I was more inclined to make degree of expressiveness a unique score, as in, after considering how many times the different variants were observed in the anime, a certain number would be deducted from the score.

Even though you provided an example, my comprehending skills are below average, but I think I'm getting what you are saying now. I'll wait till Zettai posts again and see what he says.

Jun 3, 2010 1:23 PM

#14

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Well, Book 4 (Disappearance) is a bit special with regards to Yuki, but in reality it shouldn't affect her general score (For reason you'll know when the movie DVD comes out). The other books are a non-issue, Yuki is the same on them. And that's as far as I can mention without spoiling anything.

Similing... depends. If it's a "snarker" smile (Like Ichigo from Onegai Teacher), that shouldn't really count. A happiness smile should count, but less if it's an one-off and more if it's the first of several. And crying counts more.

So, basically:

Snarky smile: 0
Happy smile: -0.5
Crying -1
Tears of joy -2 (Since it's both)

That's how I see it anyway.

EtherSword, if it makes you feel better I thought the same on how scoring worked xD

Jun 3, 2010 1:48 PM

#15

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It can't be all that difficult I mean, we have a lot of people here who are versed on moe and how anime girls behave, much more than me if you will. We just have to think of the things that anime girls usually do and what they don't, what is the key element of the kuudere behavior and what is only good but also not exactly a must, I believe it should all go pretty smoothly since we're all very alike when it comes to what we like in a girl, we wouldn't be here otherwise, lol.

While we're at it, I would throw in a random question because I just noticed a while ago, what's Yue again? .. I'm guessing dandere? .. because she couldn't be really a kuudere, oh no, although her character song "Mayonaka no Philosophy" might portray her persona as the intellectual type, this doesn't really makes up for her performance character-wise.

EtherSword said:
I think a smile or 2 wouldn't be enough for a penalty but crying should definitely count always though, maybe it depnds on the impact of the scene?

I really think we should avoid the individual character attribute when considering the criteria definition, you know like, "well, it looks good on her particularly" or "some characters do, some others don't" because this is really going to get us entangled with subjective arguments and ultimately get us nowhere.

The system should be universal and that's why we are here to deliberate on the true prototypical kuudere, it's something utopic, if you get what I mean, as in, there's absolutely no way a girl would ever gather ALL of the traits that will earn her the highest score, but the prototypical archetype definition will be there for reference as an impossible perfection that ALL girls can be compared to.

This is the concept we strive for, not to satisfy individual character's estimations.

Jun 3, 2010 1:55 PM

#16

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Alright, as long as it doesn't affect her general score. Speaking of snarky smiles, I notice a lot of them do that, kind of interesting but I like it when they do that though. I'm up for what you said for the penalties Zettai, I think scoring in that aspect there will work out pretty well for everyone.

Mondai, could you show us a layout for what we covered so far about Yuki? I'm still a little lost on what your saying, could you show us what the layout for maybe Yuki's voice pitch? Or how you would go about scoring that category?

Oh dang, you made that post while I made mine here.

Jun 3, 2010 2:03 PM

#17

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(You made that post while I was making mine =x)

I want to say Yue (from Negima?) is a dandere. If I grasped the term correctly that is. And your right, we want to try to avoid some too in-depth info so we can stay on track for just the basics for now. Even though this is pretty deep for myself though lol.

"The system should be universal and that's why we are here to deliberate on the true prototypical kuudere, it's something utopic, if you get what I mean, as in, there's absolutely no way a girl would ever gather ALL of the traits that will earn her the highest score, but the prototypical archetype definition will be there for reference as an impossible perfection that ALL girls can be compared to.

This is the concept we strive for, not to satisfy individual character's estimations."

Are you saying we are not doing each listed character ratings? I'd rather like to do that.

EtherSwordJun 3, 2010 2:16 PM

Jun 3, 2010 2:31 PM

#18

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EtherSword said:
(You made that post while I was making mine =x)

I want to say Yue (from Negima?) is a dandere. If I grasped the term correctly that is. And your right, we want to try to avoid some too in-depth info so we can stay on track for just the basics for now. Even though this is pretty deep for myself though lol.

Really? goes to show how little I understand about them, you think you can make a technical approach to define the dandere? we will need that later on I guess

I sort of liked Yue, she's cute, but nothing too over the top, I'm all for Chachamaru or maybe Zazie.

Anyway, I agree with Zettai on this one, a snarky smile, got to love that one, it reminds me of Tomomi's and even if it's somewhat dark at times it's a plus to me, someone around who can provide examples of smiles that can be exent from penalty? We need to start defining these things so we can build our list.

What we have so far:

Happy smile (-.5) (still deliberating on exceptions)
Crying (-1) (I actually kind of agree on this one, crying isn't completely a negative)
Tears of joy (-2) (didn't think of this one, good insight)
Gestures and facial expressions (we need to define unusual gestures/mimic for kuudere, even little things like sweatdrops and crosses on their heads might count right?)
Pose and stance (we need to define unusual poses for kuudere, will we take in consideration her appearance in aban and eye catch?)

And what have you.

Ok, I will explain the next criterion on another post.

Jun 3, 2010 3:18 PM

#19

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Voice pitch (or maybe just Voice in general?)

This one is about spotting voice patterns we can generalise to create categories, and giving each voice its own value in regards of appeal, of course, this will be related to the character type in question (we will talk about that later) but sometimes we have girls whose voice isn't exactly matching with its type, for example, Enma Ai is a pure ojou-sama type but she doesn't has a typically ojou-sama voice like Senjougahara, who is a predominantly schoolgirl character type.

You get what I mean don't you?

Anyhow, I set a few categories based on what we would normally see, but suggestions are always welcome, we need to cover as much as we can.

Mechanic (girls that speak with technical vocabulary, typically robotic, you know what I'm talking about, they don't have to be Mecha-Hisui, but it's clear that they seem to be receivers picking up a signal from a remote transmission device. Nagato is the perfect example)
Boku-ko like (pretty common for kuudere who tend to be more badassed than moe, such as Motoko from Love Hina, Ryougi from Kara no Kyoukai, they tend to have a more low-pitch intimidating sort of voice. Boku-ko=typically masculine girls)
Fragile (this is the most representative probably, we see it often because it's just hard to mistake, it's a faint, completely passive voice which you will hear from sick/physically feeble characters, the first example Tenshi comes to mind, but there are a lot more such as Ai herself.)
Normal (this one is reserved for the rest who just don't match within the three main categories such as ojou-sama, dojikko, genki girl etc. Of course I accept suggestions.)
Mixed (reserved for characters who have more than one voice category. upon deciding on the rest of the values, I though we could have this one to be calculated by getting the average value from all the voice categories the character has.)

Now, the important part is to decide what score from 1 to 5 we will be giving to each of the voice categories listed, and more importantly, is there are anymore categories we need to include.

I don't really know if we could give it 5 to ALL of them .. but if you ask me .. I'm really inclined towards having fragile as 5, the rest can be a bit below ... then again, it's personal taste.

Upon clearing this up, Nagato should get the score given to the mechanic voice, I'm absolutely sure on this one. As we evaluate more characters, they should all fall into one of these, they will get the score given to their voice category. (1=completely off character; 5=absolutely befitting)

This is when it gets difficult. So let the deliberation start.

Jun 3, 2010 3:34 PM

#20

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MondaiNashi said:

Alright, from my knowledge. What I understand the most is that dandere's don't show much emotion either but only to their love interest which seems to be the case for Yue mostly. Same with Setsuna on School Days, she really only showed any of her emotions towards Makoto. Kuuderes and danderes are too similar for me to define well enough to see their differences and I could be wrong about what I said about Yue and Setsuna. Even though we have these descriptions on the front page, I think from TVtropes website, they seem a bit vague and I wished they listed examples.

I was about to say I'll go look up some characters that have some penalties but one has already been mentioned which is Ichigo Morino and there is another one who hasn't been mentioned but you have already seen in each post I make which is Mai. They both have scenes where they have cried, (really good scenes btw). I noticed in the first season, Ichigo showed happy smiles and in the second season, she showed pretty much all snarky smiles. And, I hate to say this but I don't remember any moments when she smiled, I don't have the time to re-watch Kanon since I prioritize newer animes. I guess I'm sort of rambling right now so I'll be forward and clear now.

Ichigo's happy smiles should get a -1 since I can only remember 2 important scenes that were significant enough for when she smiled. She only cried once, so that's a -1 since it was a big deal. She never had any tears of joy, luckily, I wouldn't want her as a kuudere have too much emotional scenes, even if they were important to the story and to herself (unless it was done very well but that's just me). Yeah, gestures and facial expressions are important, I want to say at least -0.5 for them. I think Ichigo only had one scene in the first season but I don't remember at all so I could be making that up and the second season, I don't remember her too well either in that too lol but I don't think those should be penalties though.

And for Mai, I don't remember her smiling at all. I know she has cried several times but I don't think it should count when she was little. I know she has cried at least once. I don't remember if she did again at the end of her arc but I also don't want to check either since it would be kind of hearbreaking for me lol. She had no tears of joy. And as for her gesturing and facial expressions, she did show some gesturing when she had bunny ears on I think and for facial expressions, she only showed those when Sayuri was hurt or threatened. Mai never had any sort of other type of gestures and facial expressions though. Now I think these should be penalties for her since she showed emotion and etc., even then, I'm glad she did. You know whats funny, both of these characters are voiced by the same seiyuu, Yukari Tamura seems to do these type of roles a lot but I think shes been doing more loli voice roles nowadays.

I'm not really too sure on the pose and stance though, I know Misaki from Kemono DX did a lot of poses and same with Shizuku from Omamori Himari. They were all comedic poses though. But should there be penalties for them? I don' think there should since it adds to their charm. I guess it would if they showed too much emotion in their poses and stance. Which would be a -.5 since its not too big of a deal.

EtherSwordJun 3, 2010 3:39 PM

Jun 3, 2010 11:36 PM

#21

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Let's see...

I agree Yue is a dandere. She's snarky, but not "cool", and shows emotions fairly often (With those she likes). Remember, "dan" comes from "danmari", "quiet". So it's simply quiet girls with a dere side. On that sense, guess you could say they're the natural opposite of tsunderes.

I think we'll rank the individual girls, yes, but in theory nobody should hit the perfect ranking. That's what it's meant, right?

For voices, I agree fragile should be the top. Mechanic is more emotionless in general than just kuudere, and bokukko is... different, but not as fitting IMO.

Ichigo didn't do that much in Onegai Twins, since she was simply a snarky classmate in that show as opposed to an important character in Teacher (By the way, being the ass-backwards person I am, I watched Twins first and THEN watched Teacher... because I liked Ichigo. Go figure.), so don't worry about Twins much.

IIRC, Mai cried a bit at the end of her arc. Though that wasn't her most emotional action... So yeah.

For poses... Misaki was more "comical", while Shizuku, besides comical, was also really, really perverted (Misaki's poses were fanservicey too, but she isn't that perverted). Speaking of, does perversion count negatively too? Not that there are many examples (Nozomi from Kanokon, I guess?), but might be good to clarify.

Jun 4, 2010 2:20 AM

#22

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ZettaiRyouiki said:
Let's see...

I agree Yue is a dandere. She's snarky, but not "cool", and shows emotions fairly often (With those she likes). Remember, "dan" comes from "danmari", "quiet". So it's simply quiet girls with a dere side. On that sense, guess you could say they're the natural opposite of tsunderes.

Well you guys will have to give me a crash course on this archetype once we're done with this because it's really not my specialty.

ZettaiRyouiki said:
I think we'll rank the individual girls, yes, but in theory nobody should hit the perfect ranking. That's what it's meant, right?

None of them will get a perfect score, because it's really impossible to gather up all of the necessary elements in one character without becoming just overtoned or simply ridiculous (pic very related). Some of these traits could clash with each other to the point they would become mutually exclusive, for example, it would be just completely unlikely to have an ojou sama type with boku-ko voice, that kind of thing simply doesn't computes, as well as it would be extremely weird to have a boku-ko with a fragile voice.

Anyhow, thinking about what Ether said back there, is it really necessary to have pose and stance as a penalty?

I say yes. And that's because we are dealing with an archetype whose appearance and impression is a strong element, since our girls aren't generally very talkative, a lot of their appeal goes to the impression delivered straight to the viewers from the very first moment they are introduced (in the opening, for example).

Just to clarify terms we know that aban is the recap before every episode and eye catch is the occasional imagery shown before and after the commercial pause. These are important because they tend to stay and create long-lasting impressions on people which affect whatever conception they can have about one character.

To make it a bit more clear, I think that if one of the girls happens to be shown performing a particular stance or pose which is obviously unnatural and unbecoming of her and the archetype normality, there will be a penalty, regardless of the intended purpouse the author might have had, the fact she's being portrayed in a way that's misleading and will affect the impression she creates on people remains.

That's why I believe in the importance of pose and stance. Of course if you guys have any objection against this we could try to fix it or take it out.

ZettaiRyouiki said:
For voices, I agree fragile should be the top. Mechanic is more emotionless in general than just kuudere, and bokukko is... different, but not as fitting IMO.

Ok, we agree on that Zettai, now give us the ratings from 1 to 5 for each voice.

-- Right, are there any other voices we could be missing by any chance? I would rather cover all of the variants before proceeding with the evaluation.

DrMondaiNashiJun 4, 2010 2:48 AM

Jun 4, 2010 5:32 AM

#23

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EtherSword said:
I think a smile or 2 wouldn't be enough for a penalty but crying should definitely count always though, maybe it depnds on the impact of the scene?

- I kinda have to agree with EtherSword, depending on the impact of the scene and the personality of the character, crying should definately count as a penalty to some extent. My reason is that there are quite a few Kuudere/Dandere/Emotionless girls out there where there has been at least one time they have cried and its sometimes an important part to their background, namely for those who are in Shoujo anime/manga. Take Zakuro Fujiwara from Tokyo Mew Mew for example, she in the manga has been portrayed as that whole "cool" girl routine. She shows little emotion, and is often described as cold in both the anime and manga . And though she is a main character to the series, she seems more of a supporting role (mainly in the anime). She is often portrayed as an Onee-sama to the others since she is the oldest. In the anime, her character is more developed; she shows a bit more emotion, namely in ep. 42 where it shows in her past, she has lost someone who meant a lot too her (crying over a dead man's body asking "Why? Why didn't you believe me?!") This seems to play a part to her personality, so due to this, crying should not apply as much as a negativity to her. She has smiled once or twice, and to some extent it was for business (she is a model), other than that, shows a normal pout most of the time. I think that if a situation such as a death of someone close to the character has happened, crying should not count as a negativity, when they do it all the time, thats when it is definately a negativity, especially when they do it after said event has happend like years ago or something. Crying is a rarity with Kuuderes, Danderes, and seemingly Emotionless girls, but when it does happen, it is usually because of a very stressful part of their life.

Ginokami428Jun 4, 2010 6:00 AM

Zakuro Fujiwara's ABSOLUTE #1 FAN (DIBS X INFINITY X THE EARTH X THE UNIVERSE X THE GALAXY X SOLAR SYSTEM X HELL X SATAN X ANTICHRIST X HEAVEN X JESUS X GOD X CHUCK NORRIS, I WIN, SO BLEH!:-p)!!!

Jun 4, 2010 6:15 AM

#24

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MondaiNashi said:

Anyhow, thinking about what Ether said back there, is it really necessary to have pose and stance as a penalty?

I say yes. And that's because we are dealing with an archetype whose appearance and impression is a strong element, since our girls aren't generally very talkative, a lot of their appeal goes to the impression delivered straight to the viewers from the very first moment they are introduced (in the opening, for example).

Just to clarify terms we know that aban is the recap before every episode and eye catch is the occasional imagery shown before and after the commercial pause. These are important because they tend to stay and create long-lasting impressions on people which affect whatever conception they can have about one character.

To make it a bit more clear, I think that if one of the girls happens to be shown performing a particular stance or pose which is obviously unnatural and unbecoming of her and the archetype normality, there will be a penalty, regardless of the intended purpouse the author might have had, the fact she's being portrayed in a way that's misleading and will affect the impression she creates on people remains.

That's why I believe in the importance of pose and stance. Of course if you guys have any objection against this we could try to fix it or take it out.

Could you give examples of some that would be penalized for some poses and stances? I don't have a problem if there are penalties, I just can't think of anyone off the top of my head lol.

I don't really put too much thought when it comes to voices when I watch anime. The only time I do is when I think this voice sounds like this VA. So I don't really know how I would rate them except that I know robotic would be a 5 rating.

Korone also seems kind of perverted too lol. Even though Tabitha wasn't a perverted type of character, she didn't really have any problems being naked around Saito. So it seems to be a trait with them. If we were to penalized them for perversion, it would either have to be -.5 or we don't penalized them for it. Because they don't show any embarrassment which makes sense. What do you think?

Ginokami, how would rate Zakuro's degree of expressiveness using Mondai's format?

-Degree of expressiveness-
Crying (..?)
Smiling (..?)
Gestures (..?)
Facial expressions (..?)
Pose and stance (..?)

I watched Tokyo Mew Mew and I also like Zakuro the most from it but you know more about her obviously and I would like you to hear you input her rating so we can use it as another example.

Jun 4, 2010 6:20 AM

#25

Gurenn

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I wouldn't call it perversion, just indifference. Indifference is actually very much an aspect of these types of characters.

Jun 4, 2010 6:42 AM

#26

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@EtherSword

No, it's different. See, Tabitha mostly doesn't care, so she's indifferent (as Gurenn says). Shizuku in the other hand, loves making lewd comments and showing off her body (this is more apparent on the manga; for whatever reason, the anime cut most of her comments and fanservice.), so she's more of a little perv. Korone is like Shizuku but showing off less.

Regardless, while I don't think it should be a BIG penalty, I don't believe it's the kind of stuff the "ideal" kuudere would do (But I don't mind xD).

Jun 4, 2010 8:48 AM

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EtherSword said:

@EtherSword

Yeah, as you can read by my signiture and notice the Zakuro avatar (which I made) I have, I would call myself a Zakuro expert. As for the degree of expressioness, its going to be a bit hard for me to rate it because I only know her off of a few eps. (the series is 52 eps. long, of which I have only watched about 6-7) but I'll gladly try my best upon what I do know, I'll need to study the formula more first before adding my example.

- And to add to our indifferance vs. perversion topic, Zakuro could be questioned due to her little skimpy outfit as a mutant. She seems to be indifferent due to her rebelious character, but she kinda seems a bit pervy to me due to her always playing the males by showing off her slender body in skimpy outfits (not by THAT much, she only has worn 2 rather revealing outfits acording to me, her bikini in ep 19 and of course her outfit as a mutant). She has also shown some lustful looking eyes in one of her modeling pics. (ep. 11). She is often questioned as being a lesbian by fans, due to turning down men (in the manga, book 2) and the fact that Minto sits around admiring her all the time (and in ep. 43, Mint actually mentions to Zakuro how she "loved her", Zakuro is shocked and shows a bit of simpethy but metions about how she goes to pray to someone she had loved at the church she attends (the guy found dead in the flashback of ep. 42, so she couldn't necessarly be a lesbian. Shes probably just looking for the "right man", she IS of upper class [her parents seemed to be very wealthy by the sounds of things, they were often very busy people and were never really home; besides, she IS a world-wide known singer, dancer, actress and model, so you know she has to be wealthy by now]).

Ginokami428Jun 4, 2010 11:03 AM

Zakuro Fujiwara's ABSOLUTE #1 FAN (DIBS X INFINITY X THE EARTH X THE UNIVERSE X THE GALAXY X SOLAR SYSTEM X HELL X SATAN X ANTICHRIST X HEAVEN X JESUS X GOD X CHUCK NORRIS, I WIN, SO BLEH!:-p)!!!

Jun 4, 2010 12:24 PM

#28

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Ok, first of all, regarding penalties I should be addressing an important point we should consider, the fact there are particular feelings which are "hidden" as in, emotional nuances which other characters don't know, but the viewer might know, the relative negativity we're facing is determined by how the character will externalize said feeling.

Let's look at a plain example, Emelenzia from Mamoru-kun, upon becoming too overwhelmed by the frustration of being unable to convey her feelings in a meaningful way she is shown crying in her room, the settings in here show what a typically kuudere crying scene should be like, they keep it to themselves suppressing their feelings when they're with everyone else, still, it's pretty evident that she had been showing a clearly depressive pattern from a while ago, and that is what makes it negative, because other characters were involved and they became actively aware of her emotional status. I guess that's why we would rather have a -1 penalty because of her emotional barrier getting compromised, not only because the viewer becomes aware of it, but because other characters do as well.

For this reason, crying always counts as a penalty, not because of the act itself, but because of the negative impression on the character's image, it's an unmistakable sign of weakness that's invariably atypical and undesirable, granted, our girl might be indeed weak but the showing part cannot be admitted, this remains true not only for crying, but for all others negative expressions that can be subject to penalty.

But in the particular case of crying, I think we should set a distinction between those who cry openly and those who do it in solitude, because this determines to what extent her emotional neutrality was affected upon crying.

I hope I made myself clear, my English is a bit off in the previous posts. Sorry about that, it's really hard to understand at times.

EtherSword said:
Could you give examples of some that would be penalized for some poses and stances? I don't have a problem if there are penalties, I just can't think of anyone off the top of my head lol.

Alright how about this one, Meme from Kamisama Kazoku is once portrayed in both manga and anime wearing a cheerleader outfit and performing a short coreographic routine for humor's sake, this is something I wouldn't personally deem negative, I mean, she's still cute, but to the effect of being equaled to standard behavior, it has to be subject to penalty, because cheerleading is obviously not the kind of activity a kuudere would do (too energetic, dynamic, cheerful).

ZettaiRyouiki said:
Regardless, while I don't think it should be a BIG penalty, I don't believe it's the kind of stuff the "ideal" kuudere would do (But I don't mind xD).

Okay, now onto the H factor, well, yea it might be unproper to the archetype when it becomes blatantly intentional and/or recurrent, if you ask me the typical kuudere behavior on the H factor is to remain absolutely unaware of the immoral/embarassing implications of sexual behavior, I will quickly summon Ayanami from EVA as the primary example, when Shinji stumbles upon Rei in her small apartment and goes as far as to trip and place his hand on her bare chest while also staying in an obviously awkward position she remains absolutely calm as if it was just another common everyday occurrence.

I propose this should be our gold standard to define H factor and measure the ideal responsiveness. Although it seems to me that the ideal is simply .. no response at all?

Also, when we're talking about the general course of behavior the archetype will exhibit, to act straightforwardly and in a direct manner seems like the norm, although I can't quite spot any particular example, when one of our girls simply wants to do "something" she will manifest her will bluntly without beating around the bush too much, in that sense, being openly "perverted" isn't a bad thing, as long as it's determined that the character is simply voicing her thoughts and/or acting according to what she wants without giving any importance to what others think.

Jun 4, 2010 5:43 PM

#29

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Ok, now back to Zakuro. Personally, I believe that her modeling career is off character. That modeling is just not something a kuudere or dandere would do. As for the perversion factor, I personally don't think Zakuro has a perverted mind, just that she is flirtatious, which once again I question such an act by a kuudere or dandere, that just seems too normal. I still need a few exaples before giving mine.

By the way, Im sorry if my examples will all be Zakuro related (I don't read a lot of manga or watch that much anime), she's the only kuudere/dandere/emotionless girl I know.

Ginokami428Jun 4, 2010 5:47 PM

Zakuro Fujiwara's ABSOLUTE #1 FAN (DIBS X INFINITY X THE EARTH X THE UNIVERSE X THE GALAXY X SOLAR SYSTEM X HELL X SATAN X ANTICHRIST X HEAVEN X JESUS X GOD X CHUCK NORRIS, I WIN, SO BLEH!:-p)!!!

Jun 5, 2010 6:17 AM

#30

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MondaiNashi said:
I hope I made myself clear, my English is a bit off in the previous posts. Sorry about that, it's really hard to understand at times.
.

Yeah, the degreee of impact counts too.

And certainly, a true kuudere wouldn't care much for the H-stuff. So Rei and Tabitha would score higher than Korone or Shizuku, and all of them would score higher than a girl that was all "Don't look at me, pervert!".

Jun 5, 2010 9:54 PM

#31

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using the current standerds i am going to try and rate Hecate from Shakugan no Shana - if anyone feels that i have voted incorrectly please say so.

crying - 3
smiling - 4
gestures - 4
facial expressions - 3
pose and stance - 5
normal voice

kg-san said:

Asu you're still a fragile flower... But its ok cause you're a beautiful flower!

花火花火花火　:D:D:D

Jun 6, 2010 12:29 AM

#32

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Shouldn't we get everything we need to check cleared up before starting to rate?

Jun 6, 2010 1:06 AM

#33

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Yeah, I think so too.

Also, Hecate cries?

(Shakugan no Shana season 2 spoiler)

Jun 6, 2010 7:00 AM

#34

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Asukai-san said:
using the current standerds i am going to try and rate Hecate from Shakugan no Shana - if anyone feels that i have voted incorrectly please say so.

crying - 3
smiling - 4
gestures - 4
facial expressions - 3
pose and stance - 5
normal voice

Well, she only cried one time (she cried at the end of the second season, it was really memorable for me since I like Hecate a lot.), so that would be a 4 on crying, smiling, I want to count her as the same as

so it being a 4 on smiling feels right. Same with gestures, facial expressions, I want to say a 4 on that since the only major time she made a facial expression was when Yuji looked like he was going to threaten Hecate with that sword and she showed fear and helplessness near the end of the first season. Also, she showed signs of annoyance in the second season when they were battling. I can't say that her poses or stance wasn't any type of out of the ordinary kuudere archetypes stances. So a 5 on that is feels correct.

MondaiNashi said:
Shouldn't we get everything we need to check cleared up before starting to rate?

Meh, probably but I think we got those covered down pretty well and I wanted to do something since I haven't had the time to look over what everyone said lol. = I'm a bit hasty I guess because I like doing this. :D

Ginokami428 said:
Ok, now back to Zakuro. Personally, I believe that her modeling career is off character. That modeling is just not something a kuudere or dandere would do. As for the perversion factor, I personally don't think Zakuro has a perverted mind, just that she is flirtatious, which once again I question such an act by a kuudere or dandere, that just seems too normal. I still need a few exaples before giving mine.

By the way, Im sorry if my examples will all be Zakuro related (I don't read a lot of manga or watch that much anime), she's the only kuudere/dandere/emotionless girl I know.

Its no problem, once we get down everything on how these layouts and ratings will work, your data on Zakuro will pretty much be perfect, so thank you. :)

EtherSwordJun 6, 2010 7:05 AM

Jun 6, 2010 7:04 AM

#35

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Well, if that counts then those rankings seem about right (True, she does cry, hey, I watched it a long time ago xD).

So, who do we start with then? Yuki? She's easy to rank and popular.

Jun 6, 2010 7:07 AM

#36

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ZettaiRyouiki said:
Well, if that counts then those rankings seem about right (True, she does cry, hey, I watched it a long time ago xD).

So, who do we start with then? Yuki? She's easy to rank and popular.

Yeah, lets start with Yuki. Well, I already did on the first page lol.
-Yuki Nagato-
-Degree of expressiveness-
Crying 5
Smiling 5
Gestures 5
Facial expressions 5
Pose and stance 5

So, does this seem correct for this category?

Jun 6, 2010 7:37 AM

#37

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759

Seems pretty much accurate. Yuki is a really quiet girl afterall xD.

Maybe "pose and stance" could be a bit debatable since she does some "fun" things (Playing a guitar, acting in a movie, etc), but she's as expresionless as always, so... half a point or so off, then?

Jun 6, 2010 8:57 AM

#38

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I'm thinking about renaming the Pose and stance criterion to "External appearance" since it's a bit more like it, I think that even if we had things such as an unmatching outfit, it would fall within the range.

Nagato is emotionless, so naturally, she's going to excel on these particular evaluation criteria .. and most likely on everything else. Still, I find it a bit difficult for her to score very high on assertiveness.

.. You know I read something about Nagato doing something unusual at the movie, something about her wearing something because Kyon liked it.

I haven't watched the movie but that particular thing seemed off.

You guys know something about that?

Jun 6, 2010 12:12 PM

#39

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(I know im in the minority here)I actually dont know much about Nagato being that I havent seen much of Haruhi (also why I rated Hecate instead of Nagato - I understand Hecate more) so I probably wont be able to help much until the actual time to rate comes.
Hecate is my favorite kuudere so I tend to know more about her than I do others making it easier for me to understand the system by rating her first
I will eventually help in the rating of other kuuderes/danderes/emionless girls as well - though im not going to rate them until the time to rate actually comes
also I think it would be a good idea to post the final ratings on a different board so they will be easier to find rather than going through a lot of discussion before actually finding them so those who just want to see the final ratings dont lose interest with all the pre-rating discussion

kg-san said:

Asu you're still a fragile flower... But its ok cause you're a beautiful flower!

花火花火花火　:D:D:D

Jun 6, 2010 1:27 PM

#40

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Once more ratings are posted I'll copy them to another topic, don't worry.

As for Yuki...

Jun 6, 2010 3:17 PM

#41

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Ok, I can notice the pattern here, people comes around to rate a particular character whom they are familiar/fond of, seeing as people are inclined to be more knowledgeable on their favorite characters, the final score will be the mean score from all participants, but I guess it's always handy to have at least one person who is seriously an in-depth fan among the participants.

So let's say we would be considering Hecate, since we have Asukai who is the obsessed fan and Ether as participants, the final score will be the mean score between them.

Therefore, Hecate would get 3.5 on crying. In order to give an official club certificate for a specific character, we would need to determine who is the most knowledgeable person that can provide the most detailed descriptions and give the most insightful contribution to the ratings, the rest could be just people from the staff, but a knowledgeable obsessed fan has to be a must, this should also prevent misled opinionated ratings on characters who are little known to the public.

That said. I CALL DIBS ON ENMA AI.

Jun 6, 2010 4:21 PM

#42

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MondaiNashi said:
Ok, I can notice the pattern here, people comes around to rate a particular character whom they are familiar/fond of, seeing as people are inclined to be more knowledgeable on their favorite characters, the final score will be the mean score from all participants, but I guess it's always handy to have at least one person who is seriously an in-depth fan among the participants.

So let's say we would be considering Hecate, since we have Asukai who is the obsessed fan and Ether as participants, the final score will be the mean score between them.

Therefore, Hecate would get 3.5 on crying. In order to give an official club certificate for a specific character, we would need to determine who is the most knowledgeable person that can provide the most detailed descriptions and give the most insightful contribution to the ratings, the rest could be just people from the staff, but a knowledgeable obsessed fan has to be a must, this should also prevent misled opinionated ratings on characters who are little known to the public.

That said. I CALL DIBS ON ENMA AI.

I have to agree with MondaiNashi, having obessive fans such as Asukai, MondaiNashi and I over spacific characters would indeed give us a better aspect over said characters. Knowing who is obsessive over who will help us get our ratings a lot faster than just randomly scoring. In this case, I think we should all have at least 2 girls that we personally could rate. That said, I ALREADY CALL DIBS ON ZAKURO FUJIWARA and I now also call KOS-MOS. (She'll be a bit harder considering she is a android).

Zakuro Fujiwara's ABSOLUTE #1 FAN (DIBS X INFINITY X THE EARTH X THE UNIVERSE X THE GALAXY X SOLAR SYSTEM X HELL X SATAN X ANTICHRIST X HEAVEN X JESUS X GOD X CHUCK NORRIS, I WIN, SO BLEH!:-p)!!!

Jun 6, 2010 4:59 PM

#43

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Alright so, does anyone else thinks there should be at least 2 people rating every girl to make it official?

I don't know, we could set the minimum required ratings to 3 people, but what if we don't have 3 people who know the girl in question? does it means she won't get an official score?

I believe 2 people is good enough in the sense we already have Ether and Zettai covering an ample range, then again, if we were going to consider manga-only characters, game-only characters (Aigis comes to mind), the plot thickens, we should have someone versed on those particular media, the main point here is that for all girls pursuing an official score in our club there should be at least 2 people rating to obtain a more convenient and accurate score.

Jun 6, 2010 6:38 PM

#44

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I think that having at least two raters is a good idea/im not sure about three since some of the characters are known to very few people.
Im also wondering should we have a winner for each of the dandere/kuudere/emotionless types since each is slightly different
emotionless tending to be more indifferent(Ein from phantom requiem for the phantom)
Kuuderes tending to be more cool/cynical(Hecate from shakugan no shana)
Danderes being more gentle(Kotomi from clannad)

kg-san said:

Asu you're still a fragile flower... But its ok cause you're a beautiful flower!

花火花火花火　:D:D:D

Jun 6, 2010 8:56 PM

#45

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1661

I also think that we should only rate one character at a time as post-jumping would make tallying the ratings for each character quite difficult
it would also give those who know each character some time to think before they post that way they can review some of the characters scenes in the anime/manga it would also prevent hasty (and thus less accurate) rating.
I reviewed Hecate for about 30-45min before i posted my ratings

kg-san said:

Asu you're still a fragile flower... But its ok cause you're a beautiful flower!

花火花火花火　:D:D:D

Jun 6, 2010 11:12 PM

#46

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759

Two raters should be good. Three is optional, but better if possible.

For manga and games... Former I read some (But not that much), latter depends on whenever I have access to the game in question. Yeah, that'll be harder.

Jun 7, 2010 3:36 PM

#47

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Ok, I'm taking some time to expand the rest of the criteria since everyone is eager to start rating (myself included)

This is going to take a SERIOUS amount of space on the following posts so please cope up with my text wall.

Melancholy:
score format (from 0 to 4)

Temperamental response modifier, often referenced in psychology as one of the 4 basic aspects pertaining the origin of personality, it makes up for the darkest kind of emotions and feelings having a representative "black" connotation, which is also the origin of the word itself.

Why do we need this? Well, I believe it's relevant to our interests in the sense the archetype behavior follows melancholic patterns to a certain extent, Fumika from Shigofumi and Enma Ai, are specific examples of characters who hold very dark and mysanthropic conceptions of life and humanity, which causes them to act in a cold indifferent way towards everything, the correlation between expressed behavior and melancholic personality are the criteria we should be looking into.

-Preference for solitude-
From (from 0=actively seeking for company to 4=absolute loner)
We should take notice if the character usually has people around her and befriends others, etc.

-Distrust for people-
Refuses other people assistance/help, doesn't likes to rely on subordinates to accomplish goals, doesn't likes to talk about herself.
From (from 0=pretty much gullible to 4=absolute distrust)

-Soliloquy Contemplation-
Characters often found talking to themselves or holding imaginary conversations while reflecting on (mostly depressing) subjects. (Rei at the End of Evangelion)
I guess this one should be either 4 or 0 (..?)

-Emotionally traumating experience-
This one should be measured according to the extent in which said traumatic experience affects her -degree of expressiveness- and her relationship to other people.
I guess comparing her previous self to her current self using -degree of expressiveness- would be a good way to set the score on this one.

All in all, after getting the mean score it should be something between 1 and 4, and I think it's good enough because melancholy is more of a reference marker for general stereotypes than anything else, while it makes up for a small bit of the kuudere charm points, it's nothing major.

Assertiveness:
score format (Additional score for accomplishing either)

The quality of being assertive, standing your ground without becoming influenced by external disturbances, or in this case, being completely unaffected by what's happening around you and being blunt about everything.

Tsukkomi remarks (+1) Being able to point out blatantly dumb things no one notices on the spot.
Honest remarks (+1) Being able to say anything that's on her mind regardless of time and place.
Eloquent remarks (+1) Showing high prowess on handling words and speeches.
Noncompliance (+1) Character is completely calm even when prompted to act.
Direct Approach (+1) Immune to doubt and danger.

They will get a plus for each one. I can't really think of anything else, but there might be something.

I will post my layout for the rest soon.

Jun 7, 2010 4:54 PM

#48

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Jan 2009

245

I already said it but again, any input on my layout is welcome, any other useful information on behavior and what to consider should help.

Now into the character overall evaluation, this section will be dealing with expression linked to non-behavioral factors.

Visual Cold %:
score format (from 1 to 5)

We will be taking notice of the color theory to evaluate what kind of feeling the character gives off based on her color scheme.

This should be easy to do once we can define a particular rating for each color. Based on the most representative and emblematic combination of nuances we get to see in anime, it's pretty much clear that there's some sort of pattern related to color theory going on.

My current belief is that regardless of opacity, cold colors tend to be the most visually representative within the archetype, alright, technicalities aside, it's a fact that the coldest color is blue, followed by its derived combinations: purple (if combined with red) and then probably green (if combined with yellow), but then there's black, assuming it's a neutral color it's hard to decide where to put it without going subjective.

If we look a bit more into the color theory, we realize that black is a color that delivers a visual message, it stands for weight, depth, concentration, imperviousness, and from all those we're interested on the last one, and even though it's a neutral color, it's not unusual to find it associated with blue in nature, so it's likely that the color will be placed either somewhere near blue and combined with blue giving about the same value as a result.

Conversely, white is a color representing freedom, wideness, purity, emptiness, and from those we're interested on emptiness. So at the end we have two neutral colors which can stand alone and do the job in aesthetics, but they're more likely to be associated to affect opacity by adding things that are positive on either side.

For that reason I propose the following value scale for colors on the archetype:

Blue (+5)
Black and White (+4.5)
Purple (+4)
Green (+3.5)
Other (+1)
Mixed (mean score)

While (Black/White combined with Blue = 5)

As for how to calculate the score, it's not like we're going to be getting a sample of every pixel checking color codes, we should just get the most significative colors that are visually striking from her regular outfit, eyes, hair, and then obtain the average score.

That would mean girls with monochromatic color schemes will get an absolute score? Yes. But this is just my personal opinion.

Jun 7, 2010 6:34 PM

#49

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Sep 2008

389

Wow, this is really in-depth detailed work here Mondai, did it take you awhile to come up with these detailed layouts? Anyways, really good job. I don't really understand the color theory thing though. So, blue, black, white, purple, green are significant colors from some sort of psychological thing about humans or something? Anyways, really good job Mondai lol, if it were me trying to put out that sort of detail for this topic, it would take me a really long time.

Jun 7, 2010 11:09 PM

#50