| I don't think dubs are any less "faithful" than subs are in most cases. The Excel Saga subtitles were full of awkward translations and broken lines. The dub was flawless... in fact that's been the case with virtually every anime I've seen both subbed and dubbed. The subbed versions of them were poorly-translated, plain and simple. People take the word-for-word idea of dubbing waaaaay too far - very, very, very rarely is there any such thing as a direct translation. The lines HAVE to be modified in order to make the least bit of sense in English. As long as the MEANING is the same - which it always has been, without fail. In fact the one and only case where I think it wasn't was in Castle in the Sky, where I heard the pirate's motherly interest in Sheeta was replaced with an implied romantic one. But don't quote me on that, I haven't seen the Japanese version of that one. Subs vs. dubs, to me, is having to distract yourself by reading poorly-translated text while listening to a language you don't understand vs. watching anime. And by "watching anime", I mean watching it the way you would anything else on television. With understandable and well-placed audio and without anything getting in the way of the screen. They never air any subbed anime on television these days. |
| I never said it wasn't faithful as a whole, it's just the least faithful I've seen. Which is to say all the others I've seen have been even more faithful than that. And where were those two ommitted from? |
| I also have forgotten to mention the certain authenticity you get out of listening to an anime in english. Such as Hellsing (Ultimate) in which the actors either speak or have a British accent about themselves, Trigun with the characters native language being english, or Cowboy Bebop, Black Lagoon & Sakura Wars where the characters come from various countries/regions and the accents do justice. However this is not always the case, as Goldenboy's English dub surpasses the Japanese dub (and if i'm not mistaken the anime occurs in Japan as well). And I personally prefer a male lead's actor sound age appropriate, like with Richard Cansino as Kenshin, Vic Mignogna as Ed or Justin Cook as Yusuke. |
GinkoartMay 9, 2010 1:28 PM
| That Japanese Goku was hilarious, man. He was. And I've never watched Hellsing subbed, but always pondered to myself about the concept of Japanese spoken with an English accent. |
| Ont he opposite side, the subs quality you see in general are all up for question too. Just because it's subbed by a company doesn't mean anything, hell MOST fansubbers fansub(at least back in the day) because they wanted it NOW and devoted time to it. While companies just have a small portion type it up for them as they translate it. I mean some people, and this REEEEAAAALLLLYYY annoys me, take their subs from THEIR english script they wrote up and not the more direct translations. That should NEVER be the case unless your script mimics it to the T, which it most likely doesn't |
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| I don't think that all subs are automatically this way, and I don't think anyone who makes that claim is justified in doing so, but the subbed series I've seen along with their dubbed counterparts have all made less sense and been overall less smooth and more "badly-translated anime stereotype"-y, Excel Saga being my primary example. Speaking of which, I really wish more series had the Subtext option available on the Paranoia Agent DVD's. (Or at least the FX ones, which I need to get rid of...) It shows subtitles to translate Japanese text (signs, letters...) but not when characters are speaking. I really could have used that for Excel Saga. |
| Well, I do watch dub and sub anime. I defend dubbed anime (not counting 4kids) because most of our voice actor that do dubbing do non-anime work. Like I believe Steve Blum who voiced Spike Spiegel is also the voice of Wolverine. Also, Fansubs beside mistranslation. They carried censorship (which is not the fansubber fault) from the Japanese Network TV. Example: Girls Bravo fansubs had censorship while the Geneon DVD is uncut. |
| You can't just over rule 4kids either, just because MOST everything they do is the worst that a dub company in general can do, they have done well. Shaman King's dub with the exception of Rio was pretty freaking good, the actual dialogue portion was of course a little too hammered, but the voices themselves were pretty good. AND fansubbers can get the uncenseroed version of shows, an do all the time, it's just that they sub the first airing before DVDs are out so it only makes sense. @XTA, that's not really all that good a defense mechanism because Excel Saga was supposed to be completely crazy and make no sense to begin with, so if the "japanese" version less sense than that is technically a PLUS. |
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| Where did you hear that? Nothing about Excel Saga says it's supposed to not make sense. It's supposed to be random, but it's not supposed to not make sense. Nothing is. It's almost universally a negative trait. And censorship is as much a part of a dub as the voice acting, and if there's any censorship whatsoever, anywhere, it's automatically a terrible dub to me. And unfortunately, 4Kids seems to excel in that. |
| Well to YOU and it BEING SO definitely isn't the same. I agree, any censorship of any kind shouldn't happen, ever, if you can't put it on your channel as is than it doesn't belong, simple. But that never means that it's going to be bad by default, Shaman King proved that. My favorite thing though is that later in the series they didnt' cut from Iron maiden's inside view where the little girl is in underwear with her nipples poking through, they forgot about that and I recorded that shit as it aired and showed everyone that 4Kids knows whats up, even as a joke. Random and not making sense are best friends, not the same but meaningful and Excel Saga, of all shows, can hold it's own with no plot if need be. |
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iwatch2muchanime said: Well to YOU and it BEING SO definitely isn't the same. I agree, any censorship of any kind shouldn't happen, ever, if you can't put it on your channel as is than it doesn't belong, simple. Haha, then alot of anime wouldn't be on tv. And that wouldn't be good. I think censorship is a necessary evil, plus you can get more money by selling a uncut version of the series. If there is option for a uncut DVD, a censored television broadcast is complete fine IMO |
 Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| I don't care about TV broadcasts, within reason. I'm talking in general. If there's not an uncut DVD release of some kind I take an enormous amount of offense to that. And Excel Saga made perfect sense. Everything was thoroughly explained by the final episode, no loose ends left. Nonsense =/= lack of sense. |
| It was all explained for no reason at all because it didn't matter. I remember you saying the final episode was almost touching, someone did, I find that a terrible joke because nothing about that show was meant to be taken seriously. But true lack of reason doesn't = lack of sense. Not to mention the REAL final episode was so much better thant he actual final episode. no I can live with no anime on tv, because I buy stuff, and I have plenty of other shows to watch that anime on TV doesnt' need to add. BUT my real statement to this is our regulations of content on TV is FAR too serious and needs to be lightened up a lot, even if it means less shows. |
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| It was more than almost touching. It was gorgeous. Following episode 25 with episode 26 was like following the London Philharmonic with nursery rhymes for me. That being said, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. |
iwatch2muchanime said: no I can live with no anime on tv, because I buy stuff, and I have plenty of other shows to watch that anime on TV doesnt' need to add. BUT my real statement to this is our regulations of content on TV is FAR too serious and needs to be lightened up a lot, even if it means less shows. Hey that's the tv channels decision on what to show and what to edit, not the anime companies. And that's their prerogative, one can't do anything about until they choose to change themselves. I personally think these "don't censor" anything crowd is the ones that are far too serious. I, personally, would rather have anime on television with some edits, than not anime at all. I know alot of the anime I watch as a kid, would probably wouldn't be on tv without the edits, and I probably wouldn't have been a fan of anime in general without seeing those shows. So I happy for those edit, and wish for others to see anime at most any cost, so other can share in my adored hobbies. So edit all you want Cartoon Network, as long I still have the uncut DVDs. |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| Just as too many people consider the luck of the early bird rather than that of the early worm, you focus on the people that edited anime attracts while disregarding the people that it repels. Nobody's saying what is or what's going to be. We're talking about what should be. Obviously censorship will never disappear, people are just too stupid and prudent for that to be a possibility. |
| I don't understand how people could be repel by edits that most of time no one could notice without prior knowledge of the series. So may be more obvious than others like 4kids (which is just that for kids), where the edits can be somewhat justified because who it's gear towards. Which most thing that is licensed by 4kids should turn certain people off anyway considering Pokemon, Yugioh, and Dinosaur King isn't the best representation of anime outside of children marketing. But stuff like editing blood, nudity/sex and cursing, (which is the most common form of censorship), get someone turned off, they just seem like unpleasable people and could easily be turned off by anything else. "Oh god, they don't have Sai constantly cursing like a sailor, I never going to watch this show I supposedly like for the story, characters, and action, which still is intact, and not for something as insignificant as a Komahamaru turning into sexy ladies fondling each other. My show's ruined FOREVAAAR! And now because of this, I'm never gonna watch other better anime that is perfectly intact in DVD form or though streaming. Thanks alot Disney XD, you just turned away another anime fan, I'm going to watch reality shows now" Seriously...these are the people you want to attract. I may agree with you on certain anime censorship, like One Piece, though in my opinion I think other factors was at work, that has nothing to do with 4kids edits, that prevented the series to become big in the states. Though truth be told I think a series should do well regardless of edits since again the people that it should attract shouldn't have complete knowledge of the series beforehand. If they do they should already recognize themselves as fans or not, and would know how and where to get their anime fix. May there are some, but part of me don't think they are the majority, so forgive me for not caring much. And I don't think people are just too stupid and prudent to allow censorship to cease, I just think US standards, especially US television standards, are just different from that of Japan. 4kids aside. We edit and censor our own stuff. |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| I'm against censorship in any and all its forms. The point I'm making is that there's no reason for them to do it, and by making it even more kiddy by American standards they're perpetuating the already-dominant idea that anime is juvenile. Yes, people already think that way. I know that. And censorship is not a step in the right direction. |
| Yes, but the alternative is going to be "JAPAN IS CORRUPTING OUR YOUTH!!!" from those overly protective kind or worse "TENTACLE PORN!!!" from everyone else, so you can't win. Animation Age Ghetto is so ingrained in not only American society, but others as well, dictating that if an animation is not family or kids oriented, it's South Park. I rather them market to right audience, if its a kids anime, market it to kids, because, you know, its for kids. Making a kiddie show more kiddie isn't going to change the mind of the guy who already thinks the kiddie show is kiddie by not censoring out a old man stealing a woman's white panties. I seriously doubt the only thing keeping average non-elementary school aged joe from watching Pokemon was James having fake breast. Does not make sense, just direct them to adult swim (which has done some editing) or something, where one should go to have people change their minds about anime and animation. You know, after learning that Afro Samurai was edited on Spike, I just came to a reasonable conclusion, somethings just can't be shown on television, because Even "adult" anime on a "adult" TV network is censored. So I personally don't mind censorship at all, because that just regulation, and it's not like you are being denied seeing it uncut, which you aren't, you have the internet, DVD, and etc. |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| But there's no reason to do it. I'm not saying the networks or the licensors are wrong. Their opinions don't even matter, they don't have a choice in the matter. I'm saying the FCC is wrong, I'm saying America is wrong, and I'm saying the world is wrong. |
| Uh...okay |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| I like English dubs because i like to WATCH anime not read it. |
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| XTA is right on that for the most part. The FCC here in america and american standards for television are what's wrong the american TV to begin with. There are numerous live shows with gore or sex that air on TV fine, the major issue is that ANIME isn't viewed as anything but cartoons for kids here and so they can't air them outside of specific networks or blocks that designate them as so, which in turn will still censor the shows. Adult Swim does, SyFy does, etc... this is WRONG by default and shouldn't happen. Dude friggin DISNEY cancelled Power Rangers form their company because parents complained it was too violent for their kids, so SABAN entertainment, who made it here originally, said FUCK you and bought it back and will air it on Nick. Anyone who thinks Power Rangers is even moderately violent is stupid, making 89% of americans 25-65 with kids in that space. |
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| It's amazing how many parents prefer a 2nd-grader's classmates dropping all the negative things in life on them all at once like a pile of bricks on glass to just letting the child learn about them in moderation the way they would any of the positive things. |
| Anime, by default being animation, is seen as being aimed at children regardless. Not really wrong if [as] and scifi decides to edit things on their own channel because it their choice. I don't think they are doing you any injustice just for bleeping out some f-bombs and blurring some nipples, it seriously isn't that deep. Oh yes, I remember watching Power Rangers when I was younger, good times. Anyway I wouldn't call a parent stupid for thinking Power Ranger is violent, because it is rather violent, not to mention one of the worst kind of violence, inimitable. So I can see where a parent would get this idea, and chodos to those parents who are regulating what their children but they shouldn't have ruined it for others who actually want to see it and be mature enough to not karate chop their friend in the face. On a another note, I don't think that's why SABAN decided to put Power Rangers on Nick. I think it was, like everything else, due to money issues. |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| I think you may be stupid coolcat. Power Rangers isn't violent AT ALL, and if it was than it is far from IMMITATABLE, it's the furthest. It's flashy high flying super powered bull shenanigans that you can't re-created without the proper tools. It isn't violent, it's action. Action and violence are two different things and always will be. Violence and GORE are also seperated the same way. And no, these companies don't just bleep and blurr, they cut and reshape and that is a no go. NO FUCK? sure why not? However no nipples? NO, if the show has nudity and you can't show it, the show isn't right for your channel and drop it. THat's how it works. |
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| Ouch, ah, thanks for the diagnosis, but there is really no need for name calling. lol Madness runs in my family, though, but I don't think that has anything to do with the discussion that we are having now. >_> Yeah, the martial art that is shown in Power Range is rather immitatiable, (oh dear I missed spell that the first time didn't I ^_^'), stupid and fake as they maybe to the mature eye, though when I was young it look slightly more convincing. Not sure if they still do as much of those little fight scenes as they did in the beginning. And you, I think, is way too passionate about nothing really. The maturer channels for the most part do bleep and blurr, I do see sometimes they are cut for time, but is that really censorship. Hey, it's maybe network standard for broadcast, just because Japanese television can get away with certain things, doesn't really mean anyone is in the wrong or it's not right for your channel, it's just that one scene or scenes that can be seen as inappropriate by the people in charge. I suppose if you want to complain about thing getting change from the original intent, you should go to the companies responible for the adaption decay and distillation of manga series (or just the original in general). Seriously, if you are so hell bent on you stance of censorship and that any change is unacceptable then we should all boycott adaptions. I mean for example, in the Naruto manga there was a scene where Konohamaru did Yaoi No Jutsu was strangely absent in the anime. What so two girls are okay for primetime Japanese television, but two guys aren't, that's so hypocritical. What girls aren't allow their manservice? Why both animating the manga if they are just going to change it. And not just Naruto, loads of other seres as well. God, I hated the anime for Berserk, they skipped over some of the best parts, I really want to Guts get raped by that giant man when he was like twelve, darn, I really wanted to see that animated. God, if they aren't going to animate everything why animate it all. Wasn't like the storyline didn't exist, so wrong...And worse more, they can kill the storyline and make it nearly unrecognizable, poor Angel Sanctuary, the anime did not do that Koari Yuki's brilliance justice, and Light should have died the same way he did in the manga, what was the point of changing it. And don't get me started on adaptions of oh greats work Oh! Great works, there was full frontal nudity in that scene in the manga and you know it anime. It shouldn't be on television if everything isn't alright to show. I hate that these authors, who but their good health on the line, do not always have a say on how their strory is adapted. This injustice has been going on unopposed for too long, but no more, let's stand up for those who can't and aren't willing to speak. Studio Deen, TV Tokyo, Studio Pierrot start making you own million dollar franchises, and stop ruin silence their true creativity. So many are turned off by you're crappy fillers and no ending end...soulless money-grubbing companies, all of ya! >_> Gosh, nice to get that off my chest. ^_^ |
coolcatMay 17, 2010 10:49 AM
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
coolcat said: And you, I think, is way too passionate about nothing really. You have absolutely no right to tell anyone what they should and shouldn't be passionate about. Sorry to jump on you, but that's going way too far. As for boycotts, they won't accomplish anything because anti-censorhip is the minority. Which probably has to do with the fact that even remotely intelligent people are and always have been in the minority. If you want to find the root cause of all of this, it's the people. Society. The overwhelming idiots that infect our planet that, quote, XTApocalypse said: prefer a 2nd-grader's classmates dropping all the negative things in life on them all at once like a pile of bricks on glass to just letting the child learn about them in moderation the way they would any of the positive things. It's not something that can be fixed because our world works on a majority basis. I realize it's a futile effort, but I preach it anyway because it's all I can do to try to spread what's right. Besides, life would be far too boring if I didn't. Now excuse me as I smoke my bubble pipe and share the answers to life, the universe, and everything with the hobos across the street. |
Miguel9183 said: I saw the first few episodes in english and didnt like it at all "believe it" shudders That was probably not a unique sentiment , considering in the later episodes they stopped using the phrase almost completely... |
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| I really don't see the problem with it. Naruto's an extremely annoying character, he's supposed to have stupid-sounding lines. He wasn't any less annoying without it. In fact I'd say he got more annoying without it, because of the way he gets all preachy in the latter half of the series. |
Miguel9183 said: . My only exception to this is naruto. I saw the first few episodes in english and didnt like it at all "believe it" shudders They haven't said that since episode 10. XTApocalypse said: coolcat said: And you, I think, is way too passionate about nothing really. You have absolutely no right to tell anyone what they should and shouldn't be passionate about. Sorry to jump on you, but that's going way too far. I didn't tell anybody they should do anything. He has every right to be pissed at whatever he wants. I, as a person with my own opinion, thinks that it isn't something to get all up in arms about. If he still has passionate feelings about this, it's all him, and I'm just putting my two cent in, he can seriously take it or leave it. He responds, I respond, in the end I don't anyone is changing their stance on anything, but it makes for good conversation, so I keep this going. As for boycotts, they won't accomplish anything because anti-censorhip is the minority. Someone didn't sense my slight sarcasm. Though I will admit, adaption decay always annoyed the crap out of me. Which is why I mostly read manga in till around 2008. My change to a preference to anime was ironically due to the fact that the US anime industry was in chaos which kill off big US companies, and caused the surviving ones change their game plan, making anime soo much cheaper and easier to obtain legally. So I guess in some twisted way, the death of Geneon USA, rekindled by passion for collecting anime. XTApocalypse said: Now excuse me as I smoke my bubble pipe and share the answers to life, the universe, and everything with the hobos across the street. You do that, while I relax on a beanbag chair well listen to some psychedelic music, telling everyone to ''chillaaax, it's not that deep, there's like war and stuff going on, man" as I hand you a most likely illegal substance. (~_^) |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| ^ fair enough But I felt performance was solid, lot of well respected VAs voicing in the series, and I felt that they fit their roles well in the series. |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| No no, multi-medium changes don't bother me. From book to movie, manga to show, i don't care about that. Different mediums are designed in different ways, told differently and sort of aimed at different people. SO this never bothers me. Change whatever you want as long as it ends up good on it's own merits, which many things are. Lets take Naruto for instance, that 75+ episodes of filler at the end of the first series was better than the first half of ShiTpuuden. Why? THe filler is meaningless, shitpuuden has a story (well some of it because ShiTpuuden has too much filler for the amount of show it's had). Because of the quality of the content. Naruto filler had like 20 different random stories, all done with decent to good animation, decent to good fights, decent to good writing and the same good music it always had. ShiTpuuden followed it's comeback story, with SHIT animation for the first 25 episodes, and for quite a few between 30-75 and now less so through NOW, with bad directing for over half of it, NEW fantastic epic music and a story that is being destroyed by the company that animates it and terrible fights. The budget cuts for this was severely split through the entire beginning because they put their money into the first movie... So until recently, Naruto filler > ShiTpuuden as an animated medium in general. For Power Rangers, by that logic EVRYTHING is imitatable. Power Rangers fights are improbable to imitate without all the pulleys and stuff needed for it. While things like MMA or parkour are very much so. The only difference is you'll kill someone else imitating MMA, kill yourself doing power rangers, both suck. Remove them both? NO (and these are just general examples) |
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| Why doesn't that bother you, they are basically changing the story and content from the source material for the exact same reasons as American companies aren't putting this and that on the air. Beside, I seriously believe a series should be good regardless of edits, especially if the story is unharmed, if not than it wasn't a very good series to begin with was it. I meant the source material. Sometimes a anime can seriously change the original story, and as a former avid manga reader is really annoying. Like I still hate when people think Angel Sanctuary isn't a good series because of the anime and was turn off from the manga (which is so much better) because of it. Of course, an anime series could be good by itself to those that aren't aware of source material, but those who are aware may think its waste of animation cells with a unsolved conflicts and lackluster ending, not as good as the original. Kicks, punches and whatever, basically the martial arts of the action scene (which can be seen as violent), does not require anything special, and if I was silly eight year old, I wouldn't think those flips aren't possible, therefore, I won't be able to kick my best friend in the face when we're playing Power Rangers during recess. You act as if unless they put on a full recreation of episode of Power Rangers, it's not being imitated, which is no way the case. Just because it's impossible to shot electricity out of your cheeks, doesn't mean some overly zealous kid won't start throwing sticks to make up for that. Children are both stupid and clever like that, they are constantly looking for ways to kill themselves. That's all I'm sayin' But, to address another point, I said absolutely nothing about removing anything, in my previous post, I actually disagree with parents who would request that and fuss at Disney. Regulate what your children watch all you want, I encourage it if makes you as a parent happy, but don't punish those who can handle watching with out being stupid which (I hope) is the majority. |
coolcatMay 17, 2010 9:54 PM
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
coolcat said: Children are both stupid and clever like that, they are constantly looking for ways to kill themselves. And not letting them watch Power Rangers will terminate that problem? And besides that, saying that the children are stupid is admitting that they're the problem. If a dog can learn not to drop anchor in the house, a 5-year-old can learn not to spend the day killing himself. They're not quite that stupid, and if they are, it's the parents' fault, not the television's. ANYWAY. I'm somewhat indifferent about content editing between mediums. If it's the same series and if it's advertised as the same series, it should be the same story. For example, "Fullmetal Alchemist", the anime, should have been a direct adaptation of "Fullmetal Alchemist", the manga. Likewise, the slightly modified storyline present in the first anime should have been renamed at least slightly so that people would know it was an alternate setting version of the original story rather than a direct adaptation. I think a lot of people feel the same way about Berserk - but then, I think that one was ended against the creators' will, as episode 27 was nixed from production. They probably wanted to keep it going longer than it did. If it's a different story, it should be made apparent, is all, so that fans of one medium don't feel betrayed when they read/watch the other. |
XTApocalypse said: coolcat said: Children are both stupid and clever like that, they are constantly looking for ways to kill themselves. And not letting them watch Power Rangers will terminate that problem? And besides that, saying that the children are stupid is admitting that they're the problem. Didn't say it would, didn't even say they should stop watching Power Rangers, I was saying, yes, Power Rangers can be imitable and, yes, parents should be parents, and regulate what their children, if that happens to Power Rangers that's their decision. But, I seriously don't care about whats in what adaption, I just don't like it when they piss on the source material. I usually try to keep the anime I watch separate from what manga I read and try not come across the two versions. Anime adaption of series can be really good, even if they don't follow the source material fully or at all. But I usually like the original better if I saw/read both the anime/manga of a certain title. I guess, just don't completely understand iwatchtoomuchanime's logic on this subject that he's seem so adamant about, I think it's rather silly, but I'm sure he thinks my opinion on this is just as ridiculous. Oh well... |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| I think it's pretty ridiculous, too. I'm not saying anything about an off-story adaptation's quality. I love the original FMA anime a thousand times more than I have Brotherhood. I'm just saying they should be labelled as a separate story to be fair to the fans, like the .hack// series was. If they had named the games, manga, and anime simply ".hack//", without any suffixes (.hack//, .hack//2, .hack//3...), it would have confused the hell out of people. At least, more than it already does. They all have different titles because they're different stories. Technically speaking, anyway. |
| No, again all the entertainment mediums are all totally different ways of bringing an experience to an audience, some things just can't or shouldn't be done. I'm not saying to NOT do it, i sure as hell wouldn't mind a direct transfer as a lot of things try to be, but it sure isn't important in anyway shape or form as long as the show, or any other medium that comes after the original is good on it's own merits. The original source argument doesn't really work because then Saiyuki is bad by default for having cigarettes and jeeps... lol DAMMIT coolcat just put the number 2 in my name lol, don't put TOO I'm just saying that parents should be parents and Disney shouldn't listen to the whims of stupid people. I know the punches and kicks of Power Rangers, like EVERY SHOW EVER that has them can be imitated and will be all the time, but it was just a stupid decision and complaint by everyone within those decisions. However for the viewers who care about it, like me, it was GREAT because now SABAN has it back. FMA was the perfect example, the 2003 FMA anime as a show was and is better than Brotherhood even though it went off and did it's own thing. Brotherhood isn't bad either, in fact after the first 15 (aka the rushed to hell because they expected everyone to have already seen it) or so episodes it became quite good, but it just doesn't hold up to the first one. |
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| If you're referring to my argument, again, I never said anything about which show was better. I'm saying it would make more sense and be more fair to people who have yet to see the series if the anime the followed the same story as the manga shared the same name as the manga, and the one that didn't... didn't. I hate Brotherhood and love the original anime, but it just plain makes more sense. It wouldn't hurt anyone and it would help plenty of people. |
iwatch2muchanime said: some things just can't or shouldn't be done. which is my argument for as to why somethings can't or shouldn't be shown on American television. It's not like they are change the intended audience, but just making it more accessible to the audience the companies want to attract. Why is transferring to another medium different when the idea is the same. iwatch2muchanime said: The original source argument doesn't really work because then Saiyuki is bad by default for having cigarettes and jeeps... lol. ...whaaaaat? iwatch2muchanime said: I'm just saying that parents should be parents and Disney shouldn't listen to the whims of stupid people. That was what I was saying as well. But then I followed saying I don't think that's why SABAN bought Power Rangers from SABAN, I thought it had more to do with money issues, Because I find it really hard to believe that after 9 freaking years of playing constant reruns on 3 different of their channels that Disney would just NOW want to get rid of the series because of parents complaints. Unless their was some kind of huge controversy involving kid dying after doing one of the stunts that no one heard about, then I doubt that's the parent's complaints are the reason that SABAN bought back their series. So its must be the money, SABAN must have found better opportunity elsewhere. |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| Saiyuki's parent story is Journey to the West, thus changed from original source. And no the idea is not the same, changing mediums and "changing audiences" are different. I don't believe that changing audiences exists. The audience is for a show is determined while it's being made and from their that's what they aim for. That audience is the same in ALL COUNTRIES all over the world, kids, teens, grown ups, girls, women, boys, babies, etc... it doesn't matter because those things aer the same across the world. How or where they're raised shouldn't matter to the distribution companies. The people or parents of these people should determine whether they should watch it or not, but ti should be accessible at any time in it's original form. Especially on TV, that's what the freaking parent chip thing is for A new medium, to me, is creating something from the ground up again aimed for an audience specific for this medium, so the different mediums don't need to coincide all that much really. |
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| In Saiyuki's case, it's a completely new story, where as the anime would be an adaptation. You're not really making something new, you're making an adaptation, almost panel to panel from the manga source or anime source. I didn't say that the audience is changing at all. A children show is still aimed at children or a preteen show is still aimed at preteen, it's just when a show crosses borders to a country who has different standard of what is suitable to whatever age group or against network standard, they may edited out some things so they don't have to change audience. Example: Maybe showing a young boys genital is a sign of innocence in Japan and Japanese parents are alright with their 8 year watching a show that contains this. Meanwhile in the Western world, showing a young boys genital on TV, even in cartoon form, is seen as perverted and seen not appropriate to their 8 year old. So two things happened edit and censor the series so it can keep it's original intended audience (Phuuz dub of shin-chan) or completely say "screw it, we can't legitimately show this to the attend audience for various reasons", so let's try to aim the series at a different audience (FUNi dub for shin-chan). Same audience, just different rules. So if a licensing company was smart, they would or should care how and where their audience is raised, especially if they want a certain show on TV, even if it's DVD only they should still care about the non-Japanese audience they are dealing with and trying to market to. This can take many forms, doesn't have to be just editing. |
coolcatMay 22, 2010 10:41 AM
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
coolcat said: Meanwhile in the Western world, showing a young boys genital on TV, even in cartoon form, is seen as perverted and seen not appropriate to their 8 year old. And the Western world is the one that is absolutely indisputably wrong on the subject matter. Thus, they have no right to that claim and no right to edit it. Whatsoever. I'm not saying the distributing companies are wrong to approve of editing. THEY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. They have to act as a business and they have to make a profit. I'm saying America is wrong for expecting them to edit it. I'm not saying what's going to change, because it's never going to change - I'm saying what should change. This is a fruitless discussion, and I admit to that. I'm just trying to make a point. |
| No, that is what I was saying coolcat. Jumping ship to other countries should not dictate how the show will be presented. The show should be presented in the form it was created in at all times. The people or parents of people watching it should be the ONLY ones dictating whether they should be or not. No changes to the show itself should be done. Lol, you're contradicting yourself coolcat. Saiyuki is a story based on another story, it takes the original idea and makes it it's own in it's own form and style. And making an anime of a manga is NOT a panel shot for shot take dude, there are over 1000 shows based on manga and games that don't even attempt to do that let alone do it loosely. Making an anime, in general, is taking something else and then making a tv show version of it in it's own style and form, using the manga as it's base. This CAN lead to a straight take of the manga, or it doesn't, and that doesn't matter. As long as the show itself is good on it's own merits. HxH was a shot for shot take of the manga and it's FANTASTIC. While 03 FMA has little to do with he manga and is FANTASTIC. It doesn't matter man. Now, back to censorship, I DO believe that shows that are basically complete copies of the manga, and the manga is ultra violent or ultra nudity and stuff that the anime NEEDS to copy that. Tenjho tenge needed to do that, Rosario + Vampire needed to do that, etc... all these things copying their bases but not going as far is pretty stupid. Something Gantz did well in my book. |
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iwatch2muchanime said: It does, all the time. It doesn't have to be as extreme as edits, but trying to sell whatever to a new audience, you may have to change the way it's is presented sometimes.No, that is what I was saying coolcat. Jumping ship to other countries should not dictate how the show will be presented. Anyway, not really contradicting myself, the manga doesn't really try to convince anyone it's an adaption of Journey to the West outside of name only whereas the anime is trying to convince you it's an adaption of the manga, but the small changes isn't always met with praise especially if you read the manga first. For the most part the a lot of anime adaption is almost panel to panel to the point where you know what it missing and what was added. The anime a lot of the time follows the manga pretty closely. Whether an adaption is fantastic or not is really just opinion, and really has nothing to do with what I'm saying. My point on the matter isn't if it's good on it's own merits is that there are changes from the original source material, that wasn't the original intent of the creator(s). You're adapting their work, and then passing it off as their work just in different medium. But whatever I think we are on the same page now, so my side of this discussion is most likely over. XTApocalypse said: And the Western world is the one that is absolutely indisputably wrong on the subject matter. Thus, they have no right to that claim and no right to edit it. Whatsoever. No one is wrong for having different standards of what is appropriate, especially when it not hurting anyone. Yes, no one has a right to dictate what other countries are doing, but when you sign the rights off to your show to another country now, when it you allow it to be shown somewhere else, it's has to adhere to different rules. They aren't really forced, there are always choices: they don't have to broadcast said anime on TV or make it available to North American audience, they could just leave for the Japanese. |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
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