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Jul 26, 2016 8:16 AM
#101
Lobinde said: Mamster-P said: however i won't agree because i know for sure one of them is at least a partial shitposter and the other just feels so damn bad about himself that he feels the only way to bring himself up is to talk all this shit and act superior Well I'll just say this: People who talk the most shit, do the least shit. You'll know this especially if you've subjected yourself to the fighting game community or speedrunning community at all. On topic: That video is still biased as fuck, because it assumes that "moe" is automatically a bad thing. I am technically part of the fgc community lol, I play sm4sh competitively and was at CEO so I know what u mean Them stream monsters are all scrubs who bash players yet they don't do shit even when the grow the balls to show up And yea all these videos ALWAYS talk about fanservice from a negative perspective, so stupid |
Jul 26, 2016 11:04 AM
#102
Fak I need to watch that. Thank you for sharing m8 <3 |
Jul 26, 2016 11:33 AM
#103
So you are just parroting what others have said over hundreds of times. You did nothing ground breaking here. |
Jul 26, 2016 12:27 PM
#104
it doesnt hurt industry but it hurts the ones who think that watching certain kind of anime makes them better than others |
Jul 26, 2016 12:54 PM
#105
Mamster-P said: your average anime watcher only watches like 5 shows at a time... infact, most probably only watch like 1 or 2, and not only that, most ppl just watch what theyre told they should watch, its like ppl don't know how to search why should the industry care about those people when theres people like me( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) who watch 20 at a time, never complain, and are constantly buying the merchandise as well as the DVD's? even if japan has elitists who are complaining that "anime sucks now" well they probably aren't supporting the shows they care so dearly about, like the otaku crowd is akibara and those places are as big as they are for a reason lol, japanese people have a different culture that i think we can honestly learn from so they probably don't look at anime the same way we do, they probably just don't care that many anime are generic i mean sure, there are studios that make certain material because they feel they have to, which i think is dumb, but hey, people like fanservice, i mean, its called fanservice for a reason. you kinda have to make characters loveable, hot, badass and sexy for people to give a shit about them The average person probably watches 1 show at a time, can't see loads of people being able to have the time to watch much more then that, apart from being a student. The industry should care about anyone who watches anime, but obviously that isn't the case. By ignoring those people then it also could potentially limit the amount of money those people might of put into anime. You are probably right about people not supporting the shows enough. Don't really know about those places, but yeah cultures are different so it is likely they see things differently. Don't agree that characters have to "loveable, hot, badass and sexy" for people to care about them. Some characters are arseholes or characters that people 'love to hate'. I'm probably in the minority but I kinda like them because it makes them more human or relatable. People you have strong feelings towards including hatred, means you care about them. kronopy said: They can't saturate the market... Is like saying: ''If Hollywood continue to produce so many action movies, one day peoples will get bored of them.'' No they won't, because most peoples who watch them like the action genre. Is the same with moe. Actually if you check the sells, saying that moe anime help the industry is not very accurate... THEY ARE THE INDUSTRY! Most of the time, moe shows sell 3-4 times the ammount that normal ones do... sometimes they sell even ten times the ammount or more. They have a very big and loyal fanbase... if you think that a fanbase that invest so much in a genre will get bored of them one day, you are very wrong. Here in West the standard of beauty revolves around: sexy. In Japan the standard is: cute. They have a culture of cutness that exist in all the layers of media. Think you'll find people do get bored of the same or similar things. The difference is the hardcore fans will stay with it while the more casual people will drift apart from that. Saying that moe is the anime industry isn't accurate but is also not wrong. It is a big part of the industry but it is also not the only part. It could be better compared with the Wrestling industry. Wrestling isn't just WWE, but a lot of people see it that way in any case. The WWE outsells every other wrestling promotion, but people do get bored by just watching WWE. Which is why other promotions are able to exist because they fill the gaps that wrestling fans want which WWE doesn't provide or simply ignores. Also why WWE's ratings have been sliding downwards. As for the standard of beauty, its more down how each individual thinks. However, the mainstream media defines the standard because people buy into it. Yarrowia said: No, more moe shows does not mean less of other shows. I don't know why people get this idea, it' doesn't make any sense. It's like saying "I don't like superhero movies, because these days there are so many superhero movies that it reduces the amount of girly romantic comedies". The two have nothing in common. There are less of "non-moe" anime because they don't make enough money that's all. The successs of moe objectively only helps the industry, and it's not the otaku's fault if other shows are not profitable. Just look at Kyoto Animation; the huge success of moe shows like Haruhi and K-On! allowed them to produce Nichijou, a high-budget and critically acclaimed comedy anime that was not relying on moe. And it was a commercial failure. Ironically, a good non-moe anime was produced thank to the moe fans, and it was never followed up because of the lack of support from the other fans. Fans who seems to be more concerned about ranting on what doesn't exist than supporting what exists. There is a concept that is called opportunity cost. This is where a person, business, show or whatever, have 2 or more choices in doing or making something but they can only do 1 of those choices and the rest can't be done. If a studio can only make 1 show a season, whatever show they decide to make also means they have rejected and can't do any other show for that season. If the majority of studios decide to make a moe anime then it reduces the other kinds of anime that is available. Other types of anime are less profitable but that doesn't mean they don't make enough money, it just means it makes more of a business sense to make a moe anime because it makes the most money. The success of moe anime objectively makes the most/more money for the industry (for now, could change in the future). Doesn't mean it helps the industry overall. Yes it makes more and helps to finance non-moe anime but having limited options doesn't help the industry. Limiting the options means there is less variation for the audience, and without variation people (non-hardcore) can get bored of seeing the same things. |
Jul 26, 2016 2:38 PM
#106
Goofs said: interesting, I wasn't aware of Hong Kong's film industry decline. yeah, chances are anime will go the way of that then. Yeah, I recommend you start reading or looking into how HK film industry decline, here are some other article that you can read regarding HK industry: Decline of Hong Kong Cinema before 1997 2004 article: Hong Kong Film Fade-Out Yeah it just very sad when I read more about it. Goofs said: but to be fair, even today anime isn't considered very respectable in Japan, which may be part of why it's not seen as important to reach foreign audiences. in Japan, anime is seen as cheap, low class entertainment on a similar level to cheap American soap operas. in a heirarchal society like Japan where social status is everything, anime isn't very attractive and is still seen as kid stuff or trashy. outside big names like Ghibli, most anime are only watched by fans or children. manga only recently became normalized enough for adults to read in public No shit, I already can tell since otaku in Japan face discrimination and it's a fact. Goofs said: but anyways, I think Japan will continue its isolation and perhaps increase it. after all, the current government's been encouraging nationalist attitudes in schools for a long time now, and Japan's already xenophobic as it is Yeah, that's what I'm scared of, and I have a feeling it'll continue. |
Jul 26, 2016 4:36 PM
#107
PatheticRanger said: There is a concept that is called opportunity cost. This is where a person, business, show or whatever, have 2 or more choices in doing or making something but they can only do 1 of those choices and the rest can't be done. If a studio can only make 1 show a season, whatever show they decide to make also means they have rejected and can't do any other show for that season. If the majority of studios decide to make a moe anime then it reduces the other kinds of anime that is available. Other types of anime are less profitable but that doesn't mean they don't make enough money, it just means it makes more of a business sense to make a moe anime because it makes the most money. You don't take competition into consideration. Also, you consider a situation in which a studio can only produce a certain amount of shows per season, and that there can't be new studios emerging. But in reality, as the anime industry grows as a whole, more studios are created, and existing studios are able to hire more people and produce more shows per season. That's why you have more and more anime produced each year. Let's imagine an hypothetic simple situation of the anime industry, in which there are 20 existing anime studios (no studios are created or shut sown) and it costs 20M$/year to produce one anime per year: -Decade A: Moe market generates 100M$, non-moe market generates 300M$. 15 studios produce one regular anime every year and 5 produce one moe anime every year. They are all able to make 20M$ to balance the costs of creation. Result of decade A: 15 regular anime/year, 5 moe anime/year -Decade B: Moe popularity goes through the roof. Moe market now generates 900M$, regular anime market still generates 300M$. A lot of studios switch to moe. Now, from the 20 studios, only 5 still produce regular anime while 15 produce moe. But they all make more money than before; the ones who switch to moe make more money because this market has become huge, and the few ones that sticked to regular anime make more money because there's less competition. Each studios now makes 60M$. That is enough to produce 3 shows, so the studios expand and starts producing 3shows each year instead of 1. Result of decade B: 15regular anime/year, 45moe anime/year. What you see is that between the two decades, even with a ridiculous 800% rise of the moe market, it still does not affect the number of non-moe shows produced. As long as the regular anime fanbase is willing to spend a constant amount of money, the increasing importance of the otaku fanbase doesn't matter. You'll never have a market without an offer if there's enough demand. If existing companies don't fulfill the demand, new ones will be created. If there are not enough shows catering to elitists, it's their own fault for not supporting what they like, not the otaku's. TLDR; If good shows are declining, it's not because otakus spend too much money on moe shows. It's because other fans don't spent enough money on the shows they like. More money is never a bad thing for the industry. |
YarrowiaJul 26, 2016 4:44 PM
Jul 26, 2016 4:40 PM
#108
All of this is wrong y do moe an ecchi anime have to exist, like why can't everything be deep and smart, because i am a deep and smart person who can only be entertained by deep and smart things, it is really more or less of a dealbreaker what happened to anime with meaning like from when i was a kid, everything used to be dark and sad liek cowboy beboop and spike siegel is my second favorite character ever next to sasuke uchiha ofc because sasuke is just like me, he's smart and intelligent and cool and badass and deep my gamertag is Xx_tHePRiNC3oFH3LLslashwrists_xX on Xbox live and i have some of the highest grades in my middle school so therefore i know what is good writing like the back of my hand, and as you can see by my not saying "what’s" i am clearly an expert on the english language who doesn’t even use contractions, so you can take it from me that there is no entertainment value in things that aren't dark and intellectual like me and it's killing anime also this is related so not off topic but i recently started a yt channel to deeply anal lyze only good anime like cowboy beboop and it already has 64 subs so pls go check it out and like and subscribe if u r like me and are deep and intellectual thx, Lisbon/Xx_tHePRiNC3oFH3LLslashwrists_xX signing out I think my emulation of the average AD poster is getting better and better by the day, honestly. |
Jul 26, 2016 5:00 PM
#109
@Yarrowia I don't think anyone is arguing that the rate of good shows are declining but rather the ratio has become unbelievably one sided. I think it's unfair to thrust responsibility upon the minority who do want to see the type of exploration and narrative driven shows the older generation remembers. There's no way they could ever compete financially when the industry itself wants the majority to like poorly written stories, cliche characters, and fanservice and to want that type of audience to flourish. More money inevitably means more greed and people's worse nightmares is an industry so consumed with profit that good shows will eventually dwindle into obscurity. It won't be long until people in the who genuinely want to produce quality stuff are forced into taking donations. It's already happening with that kickstarter project Under the Dog. It's much more reasonable to lay responsibility on the people perpetuating this kind of mentality where as long as cash flows in everything is fine and dandy. The type of fan who is content with third rate shows are the majority contributing to the dilution and growing casual market. You said it yourself even an absurd rise in moe doesn't affect the production of good shows directly but it still leaves a large disparity that will continue to grow as the casual audience rises. EDIT: I think PatheticRanger is speaking from a percentage standpoint. While numerically the amount of shows are more or less equal the total count is extremely skewed. Just looking at the previous years the amount of shows that pander to the lowest common denominator only grows as we come to 2016. |
LordLagannJul 26, 2016 5:15 PM
Jul 26, 2016 7:44 PM
#110
LordLagann said: There's no way they could ever compete financially when the industry itself wants the majority to like poorly written stories, cliche characters, and fanservice and to want that type of audience to flourish. More money inevitably means more greed and people's worse nightmares is an industry so consumed with profit that good shows will eventually dwindle into obscurity. that was one of the factors that killed the Hong Kong film industry. Although the other factors behind the downfall of Hong Kong film industry was a bit different from what we're seeing in the anime industry. So that's why I'm scared for the anime industry in Japan. |
Jul 26, 2016 8:25 PM
#111
It's not cuz it pays the bills. But.... they should add a dumb and funny plot which doesn't take itself seriously instead of adding a cliché story to every uninteresting story ever made. That would pay more billssss |
stronyyJul 26, 2016 8:28 PM
Jul 26, 2016 8:35 PM
#112
I think some people misunderstanding that anime "started" to pander to otaku and otaku only watch moe.Late-night Anime was seen largely seen otaku hobby regardless contents in 2000s and this is somewhat true today too in Japan. It was not like Otaku only watch Moe General public watch other shows It was more like Some Otaku prefer more general manga adaptations such as Death Note,Monster Some Otaku prefer VN/LN adaptations Some Otaku prefer Mecha anime Some Otaku watch all of them General publich:didn't know even existence of late-night anime. The idea "late-night anime" started being known to masses after Haruhi. |
umashikanekoJul 26, 2016 8:56 PM
Jul 26, 2016 9:11 PM
#113
@PatheticRanger - Disagree. The anime industry needs to avoid American anime fans opinions at all costs. Especially the ones who watch it illegally and try to have a voice. Lmfao - Person - Moe is so bad dndndndbdhej anime industry please listen. I watch ur animu illegalky BUT LISTEN |
Jul 26, 2016 10:38 PM
#114
NO MOE DICKIE MOE with this moe trend, i gurantee you anime will be dead by the next decade. you can see the waning signs already - 2005 |
ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ |
Jul 26, 2016 11:04 PM
#115
Lisbon said: All of this is wrong y do moe an ecchi anime have to exist, like why can't everything be deep and smart, because i am a deep and smart person who can only be entertained by deep and smart things, it is really more or less of a dealbreaker what happened to anime with meaning like from when i was a kid, everything used to be dark and sad liek cowboy beboop and spike siegel is my second favorite character ever next to sasuke uchiha ofc because sasuke is just like me, he's smart and intelligent and cool and badass and deep my gamertag is Xx_tHePRiNC3oFH3LLslashwrists_xX on Xbox live and i have some of the highest grades in my middle school so therefore i know what is good writing like the back of my hand, and as you can see by my not saying "what’s" i am clearly an expert on the english language who doesn’t even use contractions, so you can take it from me that there is no entertainment value in things that aren't dark and intellectual like me and it's killing anime also this is related so not off topic but i recently started a yt channel to deeply anal lyze only good anime like cowboy beboop and it already has 64 subs so pls go check it out and like and subscribe if u r like me and are deep and intellectual thx, Lisbon/Xx_tHePRiNC3oFH3LLslashwrists_xX signing out I think my emulation of the average AD poster is getting better and better by the day, honestly. hipster version of pokemon brother nests down the ordinance to the anime paper ornaments 10/10 |
Jul 26, 2016 11:14 PM
#116
EVERYTHING MUST BE ENTIRELY SERIES OR ENTIRELY COMEDIC! I CAN'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY IF THIS IS IN THERE! STOP SEXUALIZING FICTIONAL CHILDREN THAT AREN'T EVEN REAL! THE ANIME WAS RUINED BECAUSE THEY ADDED THIS UNNECESSARY THING EVERYTHING MUST WORK TO ADVANCE THE PLOT STORY IS ALWAYS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING STOP MAKING EVERYTHING CUTE! SOME ELEMENTS JUST DON'T WORK WELL TOGETHER! WHY CAN'T THE JAPANESE PAY ATTENTION TO ME? ya.... because everyone who watches anime agrees with your "valid criticism".... just because your favorite reviewer has 1million views on his videos and 99% thumbs up doesn't mean his OPINION is anymore valid than anyone else's FUCK...... OFF.... PLEASE JAPAN.... STAY AWAY FROM THESE PEOPLE..... infact, just fucking dismiss them... anime would never feel the same again if you don't.... western ideals will only destroy anime... |
EcchiGodMamsterJul 26, 2016 11:18 PM
Jul 26, 2016 11:25 PM
#117
Mamster-P said: Lobinde said: Mamster-P said: however i won't agree because i know for sure one of them is at least a partial shitposter and the other just feels so damn bad about himself that he feels the only way to bring himself up is to talk all this shit and act superior Well I'll just say this: People who talk the most shit, do the least shit. You'll know this especially if you've subjected yourself to the fighting game community or speedrunning community at all. On topic: That video is still biased as fuck, because it assumes that "moe" is automatically a bad thing. I am technically part of the fgc community lol, I play sm4sh competitively and was at CEO so I know what u mean Them stream monsters are all scrubs who bash players yet they don't do shit even when the grow the balls to show up And yea all these videos ALWAYS talk about fanservice from a negative perspective, so stupid Oh WOW, you play Smash? A competitive Smash player that is also an Ecchi addict, that's a new discovery... |
You are not your body, you are your brain, the "self" that emerges from within it. |
Jul 27, 2016 12:06 AM
#119
LordLagann said: I think it's unfair to thrust responsibility upon the minority who do want to see the type of exploration and narrative driven shows the older generation remembers. There's no way they could ever compete financially when the industry itself wants the majority to like poorly written stories, cliche characters, and fanservice and to want that type of audience to flourish. The thing is, it's the otaku who are the minority, yet they're able to weigh a lot more than casuals or elitists. What are the expectations of blu ray sales of a typical otaku show like Strike Witches? Probably around 20,000 if it's a big success. That's a ridiculously low number compared to the number of anime viewers in Japan, let alone overseas. Even shows that are labeled as typical elitists shows like LOTGH, Texhnloyze or Tatami Galaxy all have at least 70,000-100,000viewers on this site alone. The "minority" of people who want exploration and narrative driven shows could easily have a lot more influence on the industry than the otaku if they supported the industry as much as them. This is especially true for overseas fans, who probably won't ever be relevant to the anime industry despite representing a market 10x bigger than Japan's , just because 95% of them don't support what they enjoy. And it's not a question of Japan being just xenophobic and not caring about westerners; if you look at the video game industry, the western opinion matters a lot because the west brings money. Just look at the latest Zelda, following every western standard. In the case of anime, the west doesn't matter because it doesn't bring any money. LordLagann said: It's much more reasonable to lay responsibility on the people perpetuating this kind of mentality where as long as cash flows in everything is fine and dandy. The type of fan who is content with third rate shows are the majority contributing to the dilution and growing casual market. By not realizing it's the public fault, you allows this to perpetuate. Even when they made the shows you want, it was always about money. Every industry is about money. It's not the passion that gives money to pay the animators, it's the producers who want benefits. It's up to the public to decide what kind of shows they support, and what will be produced next. If you want more quality, give money to what you consider quality shows. LordLagann said: EDIT: I think PatheticRanger is speaking from a percentage standpoint. While numerically the amount of shows are more or less equal the total count is extremely skewed. Just looking at the previous years the amount of shows that pander to the lowest common denominator only grows as we come to 2016. If moe fans are responsible for a big percentage of the anime revenues, it's only normal that they get the majority of the new shows . It doesn't change what other fans are getting, neither in good or bad. Also, quality is subjective. To me, "moe otaku pandering crap" like Fate/Kaleid Prisma Illya, K-On!, Hibike Euphonium or Yuru Yuri are better than 95% of the "narrative driven" complex stories that are praised here. |
YarrowiaJul 27, 2016 12:11 AM
Jul 27, 2016 12:07 AM
#120
Mamster-P said: EVERYTHING MUST BE ENTIRELY SERIES OR ENTIRELY COMEDIC! I CAN'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY IF THIS IS IN THERE! STOP SEXUALIZING FICTIONAL CHILDREN THAT AREN'T EVEN REAL! THE ANIME WAS RUINED BECAUSE THEY ADDED THIS UNNECESSARY THING EVERYTHING MUST WORK TO ADVANCE THE PLOT STORY IS ALWAYS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING STOP MAKING EVERYTHING CUTE! SOME ELEMENTS JUST DON'T WORK WELL TOGETHER! WHY CAN'T THE JAPANESE PAY ATTENTION TO ME? ya.... because everyone who watches anime agrees with your "valid criticism".... just because your favorite reviewer has 1million views on his videos and 99% thumbs up doesn't mean his OPINION is anymore valid than anyone else's FUCK...... OFF.... PLEASE JAPAN.... STAY AWAY FROM THESE PEOPLE..... infact, just fucking dismiss them... anime would never feel the same again if you don't.... western ideals will only destroy anime... http://nichegamer.com/2016/03/01/japanese-representative-refutes-un-suggestion-to-ban-media-depicting-sexual-violence/ Remember this? They won't, lol MAL users are like the United Nations, completely progressive and pro-censorship when it comes to anime, I don't know why |
AqutanJul 27, 2016 12:11 AM
Jul 27, 2016 12:21 AM
#121
moe is not killing anime the truth is the ELITIST anime is killingg anime like naruto, cowboy bepop, monster and tatami galaxy. |
ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ |
Jul 27, 2016 4:36 AM
#122
Nico- said: MAL users are like the United Nations, completely progressive and pro-censorship when it comes to anime, I don't know why I find the Progressive comparison to be really good actually, especially when compared to modern progressive and average MAL user Because, like most people who identify as progressive, they're more concerned about projecting a desirable image onto themselves in order to try and make people think more highly of them instead of actually thinking things through. Be it as somebody who is good hearted and fights for what is right/on the right side of history so we should "stahp objektifying womyn cuz its sexist and sexists and racists are always the villains in our history so far," or somebody who is intellectual and knows what they're talking about so that way people will treat their opinion like it has a bit more value to it. Hence why they consider fanservice and moe/ecchi stuff to be bad - because they don't tend to have particularly deep narratives nor do they try to have a deep narrative most of the time, so surely an intelligent person couldn't like it. It's like why my country is still self-harming over the Holocaust after all of these years, we want to disassociate ourselves from Nazism and be seen as good people instead of a country full of Hollywood villains. Nevermind how high the cost may grow or how unlikely it is that anything of actual worth will come out of it, we want to look like a good country with good people in it, goddammit. The complaining about the mere existence of this kind of anime is all about self-validation and image fam, nothing more to it than that. |
Jul 27, 2016 5:15 AM
#123
Kagami said: Person - Moe is so bad dndndndbdhej anime industry please listen. I watch ur animu illegalky BUT LISTEN Yeah exactly, outsiders in the industry wanting it to pander to them, same shit is happening in videogames with all the "cinematic" bullshit |
Jul 27, 2016 5:31 PM
#124
Lobinde said: Kagami said: Person - Moe is so bad dndndndbdhej anime industry please listen. I watch ur animu illegalky BUT LISTEN Yeah exactly, outsiders in the industry wanting it to pander to them, same shit is happening in videogames with all the "cinematic" bullshit Entitled anime fans are the worst this medium has, period. Why should anime pander to Americans? Even more so the guys who watch it illegally? Support the industry before suggesting change. Don't watch it illegal and be sad it doesn't pander do you. |
Jul 27, 2016 11:21 PM
#125
Jul 28, 2016 8:23 AM
#126
Kagami said: Entitled anime fans are the worst this medium has, period. Why should anime pander to Americans? Same question can be asked why Hollywood has been pandering to China, they have been doing this for the last few years. It's not only Hollywood that is pandering to the Chinese market, Bollywood has been doing it too since last year I think. Now it looks like Europe wants to get on to the Chinese pandering game: article 1 article 2 The only country that hasn't pandered to China unlike Hollywood, Bollywood, and Europe is Japan. I never seen Japan pandered to the Chinese market. I mean the Japanese film industry hasn't been taking the international market seriously. I find it odd that the Japanese film industry didn't cave to China, I mean Japan's film industry is #4 and China is #2, so it would've made sense for the Japanese film industry to have targeted and catered to the Chinese market but yet I don't see any recent Japanese-Chinese co-productions. If I was the head of the Japanese film industry, I would've pandered to China regardless of the relationship and tension. So the next time you're bringing up anime shouldn't pander to American audiences, try not to forget about Hollywood and other global cinema industry pandering to the Chinese market. |
Jul 30, 2016 8:15 PM
#127
@Yarrowia I won't argue that people should be contributing more to the type of shows they like if they wish to see them rise in number because that's indeed what they should be doing. However I do think it'll only amount to so much when profit and popularity is so ingrained into studios now that the only real change happens when the next desirable formulaic shows becomes in demand. I'll say right now that it's a tough argument to make because yes that's how the industry works, supply and demand, but that does not necessarily mean that's how it should be. What was the last hit show that really took the heart and soul of Anime and tired to explore, grow, or experiment while still doing well financially? Little Witch Academia? Bakemonogatari? Madoka? I think those are some good examples of compromises between the good, the bad, and the ugly of anime culture. Mindlessly droning out shows be it about moeblobs or pompous philosophical whatnots is not what I'm getting at. It's the completely one sided take over brought on by the industry supporting bad habits and perpetuated by the gullible fans. Is the industry still too small that we need to rely on pandering to keep studios afloat? Is the culture so flimsy we need to sell sex and repetitive archetypes to keep people interested? Is everyone so scared of change they wouldn't dare risk giving up an inch to make room for more varied type of shows? What is it? I don't think asking people to stop blindly perpetuating bad habits and try to grow as individuals is a bad thing. I also don't think it's wrong of people to expect something more, at least a more balanced ratio of shows, since the roots of this medium reach much deeper then jiggling boobs and wide eye shojos. Yes the audience has a large sway, people should contribute more, and growth is a net positive thing for everyone. Lets not become stagnant the second we become secure. By the way I think you got it mixed around. Taste is subjective but quality is factual, I.E production value, resource allocation, number of hours spent, etc. I like Fate/Kaleid Prisma Illya too, more or less, but it's not something I'd could enjoy enjoy another sitting of. |
LordLagannJul 30, 2016 10:42 PM
Jul 30, 2016 9:26 PM
#128
Well yeah. Otaku that watch these anime buy body pillows and figures to have sex with admire from a far. |
Jul 30, 2016 9:42 PM
#129
umashikaneko said: Also you cannot expect early late-night anime quality when it comes to source material quality. They are running out of popular source material already. Early days popular late-night anime sources were 1-2 million seller manga such as Monster,NANA,Death Note,Nodame,Hajime no Ippo,Initial D Nowadays we get 300-500k seller at best such as SNK,Tokyo Ghoul,Chihayafuru,Erased. Correction, snk is a 2m seller, tokyo ghoul sells over 1 million, I don't know about the rest but those sell between 300k to 500k per volume. None of those series even sold 2 million per volume, only death note and nana were 1 million sellers. Get your facts straight. On topic. Also the elistist have their self to blame, if they were supporting their deep anime, then they wouldn't be in this predicament. Don't blame the otaku that bought what they simple like, go and blame your cheap ass self. I have no problem with persons saying anime is dying, but pointing finger at a particular group of people and saying they're the reason why anime is dying, is totally ridiculous and selfish. Look in the mirror and you will know why your deep intellectual anime are being made less and less each year. If you really care start forking out some cash and stop your bitching! |
keragammingJul 30, 2016 10:09 PM
Jul 30, 2016 10:07 PM
#130
I like fan service stuff when it's done for comedic effect. Like Shimoneta (in my opinion) uses it as a comedic tool. |
Jul 30, 2016 11:34 PM
#131
As I already mentioned in this thread I was talking about before it had anime adaptation.Talking about after anime adaptation popularity rather does not make sense in that context right? 2.3 million per volume print copies for Nana before anime 1.67 million for Death Note before anime 1.15 million for Nodame before anime 1 million for Monster before anime This is my previous post. ''I meant volume print when they are adapted into late-night anime when I said Snk and Tokyo Ghoul,chihayafuru 300-500k per volume Death Note,NANA,Nodame are 1.5-2 million,Monster is 1 millon copies print per volume when they are adapted into late-night anime. In second response I included SnK as first group because even without late-night anime,SnK may well have been Deth Note or Nodame,Monster,NANA class by 2016,just like those titles become million seller without anime. Sorry for confusing response. Also I'm pretty sure those Nodame,Nana,Death note and a bit lesser extent monster were very widely known just like Naruto or Pokemon before anime that cannot be said tokyo ghoul or chihayafuru,SnK I knew these series before anime adaptation but I definitely felt they were not as famous as NANA or Nodame in Japan'' |
umashikanekoJul 30, 2016 11:54 PM
Jul 31, 2016 2:02 AM
#132
Fanservice can be overdone, but I find that's rarely ever the problem with anything. Prison's School great, Fairy Tail's awful. What do they have in common? mdo7 said: Kagami said: Entitled anime fans are the worst this medium has, period. Why should anime pander to Americans? Same question can be asked why Hollywood has been pandering to China, they have been doing this for the last few years. I mean, pretty much the only reason Japan should pander to western audience is if, you know, they watched and brought a significant portion of anime..if pandering was going to help them more hurt, but they don't and it won't (apparently). Lobinde said: Yeah exactly, outsiders in the industry wanting it to pander to them, same shit is happening in videogames with all the "cinematic" bullshit Well, it's different than that. The problem with fully-fledged cinematic games is more so the difficulty(the impossibility?), of fitting it into the medium, not particularly the marketing and audience (from what I've heard). The Last of Us is a nice game but not entirely film like. |
ashfrliebertJul 31, 2016 2:11 AM
ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ |
Jul 31, 2016 2:09 AM
#133
They don't hurt it because they make lots of cash. |
Jul 31, 2016 2:18 AM
#134
For me, I'm very open minded and optimistic when it comes to things, especially anime so I'm not very bothered by the excessive amount of ecchi, harem animes with similar plots. |
Jul 31, 2016 7:47 AM
#135
umashikaneko said: As I already mentioned in this thread I was talking about before it had anime adaptation.Talking about after anime adaptation popularity rather does not make sense in that context right? 2.3 million per volume print copies for Nana before anime 1.67 million for Death Note before anime 1.15 million for Nodame before anime 1 million for Monster before anime This is my previous post. ''I meant volume print when they are adapted into late-night anime when I said Snk and Tokyo Ghoul,chihayafuru 300-500k per volume Death Note,NANA,Nodame are 1.5-2 million,Monster is 1 millon copies print per volume when they are adapted into late-night anime. In second response I included SnK as first group because even without late-night anime,SnK may well have been Deth Note or Nodame,Monster,NANA class by 2016,just like those titles become million seller without anime. Sorry for confusing response. Also I'm pretty sure those Nodame,Nana,Death note and a bit lesser extent monster were very widely known just like Naruto or Pokemon before anime that cannot be said tokyo ghoul or chihayafuru,SnK I knew these series before anime adaptation but I definitely felt they were not as famous as NANA or Nodame in Japan'' Snk was selling like 800k before its anime, it was actually selling even more than bleach in terms of per volume. I don't know snk print volume in those times, but it had to be around 1 million. Also you're confusing print volume with actuall sales. Monster was never a 1 million seller and the manga was never consider mainstream, most people knew monster because of its anime not manga. Now one more thing could you prove that death note, nana ect were selling 1-2 million before they got a anime adaptation? Because I'm sure that's false. And here is my proof. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2012-12-02/50-top-selling-manga-in-japan-by-volume/2012 Snk vol 6 sold close to 800k in that period, only a rare breed of series sold those numbers before gettng a adaptation. It was even beating out series like bleach and it didn't have a anime adaptation yet. So not because you didn't know snk, that doesn't mean it wasn't popular . Also no way those series were as popular as naruto and Pokemon, even when tjey got a anime adaptation. Only a rare few series sold really well before they get a adaptation, but most time its the anime what really sky rocket a series popularity. Anime is a more popular medium than manga, especially outside Japan. also print volumes aren't sold volumes, that's just how much they print and distributed to the stores. Snk has like 3 million print, but it never sold close to that, around 2.3 million max it sold during a year. One piece has 4 million print around 3.4 milion max it sold during the year. |
keragammingJul 31, 2016 7:59 AM
Jul 31, 2016 8:06 AM
#136
keragamming said: oh sorry i did not know snk sold 800k per volume I meant I was reading all those(snk.Tokyo ghoul to Chihayafuru) series at least 1 year before anime adaptations i mean they were mildly famous in Japan. Maybe on oer with todays Bakemonogatari or Madoka level famous you can expect 20% of Japanese heard of it level famous. |
Aug 1, 2016 5:43 AM
#137
LordLagann said: More money inevitably means more greed and people's worse nightmares is an industry so consumed with profit that good shows will eventually dwindle into obscurity. It won't be long until people in the who genuinely want to produce quality stuff are forced into taking donations. It's already happening with that kickstarter project Under the Dog. It's much more reasonable to lay responsibility on the people perpetuating this kind of mentality where as long as cash flows in everything is fine and dandy. The type of fan who is content with third rate shows are the majority contributing to the dilution and growing casual market. You said it yourself even an absurd rise in moe doesn't affect the production of good shows directly but it still leaves a large disparity that will continue to grow as the casual audience rises. EDIT: I think PatheticRanger is speaking from a percentage standpoint. While numerically the amount of shows are more or less equal the total count is extremely skewed. Just looking at the previous years the amount of shows that pander to the lowest common denominator only grows as we come to 2016. And we still think that you're panicking too early. Blondes won't die out. Tanks are still needed on the battlefield. Anime targeting "smartass elitist" target demographic won't die out. Lisbon said: The complaining about the mere existence of this kind of anime is all about self-validation and image fam, nothing more to it than that. Well said! Lisbon said: It's like why my country is still self-harming over the Holocaust after all of these years, we want to disassociate ourselves from Nazism and be seen as good people instead of a country full of Hollywood villains. Nevermind how high the cost may grow or how unlikely it is that anything of actual worth will come out of it, we want to look like a good country with good people in it, goddammit. Well, being a good country with good people is a good thing, right? Unless looking like a good country with good people is so hard it will trigger a backlash, and nazis will take over once again. mdo7 said: The only country that hasn't pandered to China unlike Hollywood, Bollywood, and Europe is Japan. I never seen Japan pandered to the Chinese market. I mean the Japanese film industry hasn't been taking the international market seriously. I find it odd that the Japanese film industry didn't cave to China, I mean Japan's film industry is #4 and China is #2, so it would've made sense for the Japanese film industry to have targeted and catered to the Chinese market but yet I don't see any recent Japanese-Chinese co-productions. If I was the head of the Japanese film industry, I would've pandered to China regardless of the relationship and tension. You've just answered your own question - tensions between Japan and China are pretty high. Probably because Japan didn't spend as much effort disassociating itself from Nazism as Germany did. |
Aug 1, 2016 5:54 AM
#138
Yeaaaah well the main problem lies in the people itself why do we even need sexualizing? because horny weebs can't get a girlfriend so they fap to virtual girls instead, if everyone stops buying ecchi/moe animes this wouldn't be even a problem and it would mainly disappear from the industry, but since no one is going to do that we have to rely on weebs not finding a real girlfirend and hopefully keeping the moe/ecchi alive so they can make more money |
Aug 1, 2016 6:17 AM
#139
Does America contribute to Japan anime industry like China contribute to Hollywood? Most people watching anime still watch and download it illegally so perhaps,Japan don't see reason to pander to America in the first place. Chinese market actually paid for the Hollywood movies tickets unlike the anime fan in west that watch or download it illegally. |
But it's important to remember that a movie review is subjective;it only gives you one person's opinion. http://www.classzone.com/books/lnetwork_gr08/page_build.cfm?content=analyz_media&ch=30 It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person.If elitist don't exist, casual pleb and shit taste also don't exist. |
Aug 1, 2016 8:39 AM
#140
Moeblobs and fanservice anime like GochiUsa, Sansha Sanyou doesn't even sucks in the first place... you people just doesn't like it |
Aug 1, 2016 8:59 AM
#141
flannan said: mdo7 said: The only country that hasn't pandered to China unlike Hollywood, Bollywood, and Europe is Japan. I never seen Japan pandered to the Chinese market. I mean the Japanese film industry hasn't been taking the international market seriously. I find it odd that the Japanese film industry didn't cave to China, I mean Japan's film industry is #4 and China is #2, so it would've made sense for the Japanese film industry to have targeted and catered to the Chinese market but yet I don't see any recent Japanese-Chinese co-productions. If I was the head of the Japanese film industry, I would've pandered to China regardless of the relationship and tension. You've just answered your own question - tensions between Japan and China are pretty high. Probably because Japan didn't spend as much effort disassociating itself from Nazism as Germany did. That's not an excuse. China has tension with the US over the South China Sea disputes (if you don't know what that is, I recommend you read this, this recent ruling, and are you familiar with the nine-dash line). China's government has even done cyber-crime and hacking against US government and private companies. And yet Hollywood continue to pander to the Chinese market despite these erratic love-hate relationship between the US and China. How do you explain that? India has their naval force that are also active in the South China Sea: article 1 article 2 China is not happy with India's presence in the South China Sea. There's also the border dispute between the 2 of them. And yet Bollywood is still pandering to China despite the tension between India and China over the South China sea and border disputes. So if Hollywood and Bollywood are able to pander to China despite the US and India having dispute with China over the issues I mention above. Then Japan should've been able to pander to Chinese's market despite their past conflict. So why can't Japan's film industry just pander to China when US (with Hollywood) and India (with Bollywood) have their own issue with China and yet their film industry still pander to the Chinese market regardless what kind of diplomatic tension US and India have with China? How can you explain that? |
Aug 1, 2016 9:01 AM
#142
Zapredon said: Does America contribute to Japan anime industry like China contribute to Hollywood? Well not much. But the thing that baffle is that as I said, a lot of film industry are pandering to China, and Japan's film industry (not the anime/manga industry) are not pandering to China when Hollywood, Bollywood, and even South Korea is pandering to China's market. |
Aug 1, 2016 9:16 AM
#143
mdo7 said: Zapredon said: Does America contribute to Japan anime industry like China contribute to Hollywood? Well not much. But the thing that baffle is that as I said, a lot of film industry are pandering to China, and Japan's film industry (not the anime/manga industry) are not pandering to China when Hollywood, Bollywood, and even South Korea is pandering to China's market. Perhaps China contribution to anime industry are not significant enough. |
But it's important to remember that a movie review is subjective;it only gives you one person's opinion. http://www.classzone.com/books/lnetwork_gr08/page_build.cfm?content=analyz_media&ch=30 It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person.If elitist don't exist, casual pleb and shit taste also don't exist. |
Aug 1, 2016 9:21 AM
#144
Well I'm not talking about anime. I'm talking about film in general. As I said on my previous post, all of countries like Hollywood, Bollywood, South Korea, and even Europe want a piece of the Chinese market. Yet I don't see Japan pandering or cashing in on the Chinese market unlike their Hollywood and Bollywood counterpart. |
Aug 1, 2016 10:49 AM
#145
Does anyone know how much does manga/LN author earn? I believe manga/LN authors earn far more than anime staff. Most anime are adaption from manga/LN. If manga/LN authors earn enough money compare to the anime staffs domestically, there's no reason for them to pander to America's or China's market. |
But it's important to remember that a movie review is subjective;it only gives you one person's opinion. http://www.classzone.com/books/lnetwork_gr08/page_build.cfm?content=analyz_media&ch=30 It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person.If elitist don't exist, casual pleb and shit taste also don't exist. |
Aug 1, 2016 11:57 AM
#146
Zapredon said: Does anyone know how much does manga/LN author earn? I believe manga/LN authors earn far more than anime staff. Most anime are adaption from manga/LN. If manga/LN authors earn enough money compare to the anime staffs domestically, there's no reason for them to pander to America's or China's market. If You want to know loyalty,basically it is about 0.5 dollar/1 print copies.One piece prints 4 million copies per volume,so author earns 2million dollars.If the manga/LN print 20k copies,it is about 10k dollars per volume. Anime loyalty is 1000-1500 dollars per ep as i looked up. |
Aug 1, 2016 9:24 PM
#147
umashikaneko said: Zapredon said: Does anyone know how much does manga/LN author earn? I believe manga/LN authors earn far more than anime staff. Most anime are adaption from manga/LN. If manga/LN authors earn enough money compare to the anime staffs domestically, there's no reason for them to pander to America's or China's market. If You want to know loyalty,basically it is about 0.5 dollar/1 print copies.One piece prints 4 million copies per volume,so author earns 2million dollars.If the manga/LN print 20k copies,it is about 10k dollars per volume. Anime loyalty is 1000-1500 dollars per ep as i looked up. So basically manga/LN authors usually earn much more than anime production team right? Authors don't really have to pander to overseas market because they already earn enough. Kinda feel sorry for the anime team but oh well, that just the way it is. |
But it's important to remember that a movie review is subjective;it only gives you one person's opinion. http://www.classzone.com/books/lnetwork_gr08/page_build.cfm?content=analyz_media&ch=30 It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person.If elitist don't exist, casual pleb and shit taste also don't exist. |
Aug 1, 2016 9:58 PM
#148
I think the real issue is not whether or not you should pander to a smaller audience that won't buy your stuff at all oh wait Anyway, there's plenty of non-cutesy anime every single season anyway, nevermind the entirety of anime history(even if the cute DVDS sell best most the time), so I don't see the issue on this front. I've been seeing MOE killing anime complaints for about nine years now and those same people still watch their Bepop and Naruto. I don't see the point in complaining about complaining anymore, by this point. |
ashfrliebertAug 1, 2016 10:02 PM
ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ |
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