| Let's face it: a lot of shoujo mangas tend to be a bit overrated here on MAL. I know it's hard to compare across genres, but surely most can agree that your typical cliched shoujo plot with the brainless/doormat heroine just can't compare to something like, say, 20th Century Boys. So, you can bet I was surprised when I found out that a shoujo title is in the top 10 manga list here on MAL. Not just any shoujo title, mind you - a somewhat slice-of-life, romantic comedy in a school setting. Surely something rated this high would have an epic plot in a unique setting with earth-shattering plot twists, all the while focusing on a romance that appeals to the masses (that is, both males and females that may read it) - BUT NO! Dengeki Daisy's basic plot is one that's been done many-a-time before. So, all of this got me thinking: Is Dengeki Daisy worthy of being rated as the highest shoujo manga here on MAL? If it's not, then what shoujo manga SHOULD be considered "the best"? (This last question is why I posted in the general manga thread, and not the DD thread.) I know it's hard to compare all shoujos, since there are so many different sub-genres, but I thought I'd ask. |
YorokoFeb 5, 2012 8:36 PM
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| There was a post in the recommendations topic asking about shoujo manga, and this is what I wrote; "As a guy who thinks the genre sucks overall, the two best are Mars Akuma to Love Song Beyond that, there are a few good one-shots; Heaven's Door Deep Love Virus While they're probably closer to josei, Omae ga Sekai o Kowashitai Nara Fetish were also very good." Anyways, I've never read Dengeki Daisy, but based on the synopsis, it doesn't sound particularly appealing. Since you're such a huge fan, what did you love about it? |
| DD's one of my favorite manga but I think doesn't deserve the top shoujo manga spot here. I dunno, it's really good but there's 'something' lacking which you can find in other shoujo mangas out there. |
| I read one chapter of Dengeki Daisy. I couldn't be bothered to read any more. For me, that doesn't deserve the top shoujo title. What does? Banana Fish probably. Emotional, gripping, great characters, and some machine gun fights thrown in to liven things up. Unique to the point I haven't read anything else quite like it. Oh, it was written in the mid 80's to 90's, so it still appeals to readers a couple decades later. Where is it ranked? Wow, 877. Worse than I thought. Oh well... can't say I've ever had faith in MAL rankings, but that seals it. |
| people care about manga ratings? and I thought people bitched to much about the anime ratings. |
| It doesn't think, it doesn't feel, it doesn't laugh or cry..... All it does from dusk till dawn is make the soldiers die. |
YoungVagabond said: Anyways, I've never read Dengeki Daisy, but based on the synopsis, it doesn't sound particularly appealing. Since you're such a huge fan, what did you love about it? I have read Mars and Deep Love Virus, and I thought that both were good. I liked Mars because it actually had some depth to it, although I will admit the many chapters of the depressing backstory got a little old (just a little). Still, for being one of the best things I've read, I gave Mars a 9. I liked Deep Love Virus for its unique character designs. Anyway, I say that to preface the point that I see many guys who can tolerate shoujos if they have an interesting plot (i.e. something else going on in the manga besides just two characters falling in love), amazing character development (Mars), or the like. In this regard, Dengeki Daisy may not appeal to you at first (if at all) because it is still a romantic comedy with some drama, not a drama with some romance and comedy. It's somewhat difficult to say what I like about it without being spoilerrific, but I'll try my best (may contain minor spoilers): 1. It has likeable characters. Of course, many shoujos have somewhat annoying female leads, but Teru of DD is one of the only female manga protagonists that I genuinely like. Many people make the comments of "not your typical shoujo heroine!" about a lot of characters, but the thing is, they confuse a brash tsundere for someone who can "stick up for herself." In the end, the tsundere character is still going to fall for the sleezeball male lead. Teru actually has many cliched qualities without actually being a cliche herself: she is not the shy doormat that "grows up and gains friends," she is not the "terror tsundere that really turns out to be a doormat anyway," she is not the "tragic heroine - PITY ME," ect. She actually has some qualities of these sterotypes, but they are utilized in new ways. It's hard to explain. The male lead is also likeable. I know, I know, the whole point of shoujos are to have the tale, handsome, rich prince that everyone can swoon over, but Kurosaki actually feels like a human being. That is, he has his flaws, he acts mature sometimes (perhaps because of his age), and he even cries (!!!) (in a non-sissy way, I assure you). ----->Perhaps Kurosaki seems so real to me is because the mangaka is a male, and doesn't feel the need to put ridiculously unrealistic sterotypes on his male character.<----- 2. It has many different types of humor. There are funny situations, there are funny facial expressions, there is irony, parody, and even a couple of examples of "breaking down the fourth wall," wherein this shoujo manga makes fun of itself for being a shoujo manga. 3. Every chapter is likeable. In other words, it actually has quite phenomenal pacing. In EACH chapter you'll get a little bit of drama, a little bit of the secrets around the main characters unraveled, a little bit of comedy, and (most importantly), more tender moments between the two leads. This basically starts from the first chapter, so you'll probably be able to tell right away if you're going to not like this manga or obsessively read it until you've finished all the scanlated chapters. From the people I've talked to (who are admittedly all females), it's either one or the other. 4. The romance seems sweet, real, and genuine. Not everyone may agree with me here, but I'll be darned if some of the things that are said in those text messages aren't the sweetest things I've ever read. The dialogue manages to be sweet without being overly sappy, cheesy, or trite. THIS IS A VERY HARD THING TO ACCOMPLISH. 5. It has cliches without feeling cliche. This is very hard to explain without totally spoiling things, but this manga starts out with a declaration of "I'll always protect you," then moves on to some standard shoujo stuff. Where Dengeki Daisy really shines is that it takes these moments and turns them into things that are totally unexpected. ----->In other words, it takes many of the things the standard shoujo crowd likes to see in shoujos and gives it a fresh breath of originality.<----- 6. Many of the plot twists are unexpected. Just when I thought I could predict something was going to happen, it changes to make the story more interesting and hilarious. Even the predictable plot twits are done in a hilarious manner. That's another thing - the plot "twists." There are really no "big revelations" in this story, just many, many smaller ones. I guess that's another thing that I like about the series, although this point could technically tie in with the discussion on pacing. 7. The art. I just really like the mangaka's drawing style, other people may not. It's just preference. Probably what I like the most is that he really puts in a good effort at making the characters have MANY different facial expressions and angles, and he draws bodies proportionally well. To me, nothing's more ugly than the ridiculous shoujo giraffe-necks or amoeba-like hands. Ergh. Anyway, there are many more reasons, but again, don't want to spoil things. No, it is certainly not the best thing ever written by a long shot, but it succeed so spectacularly for what it IS - that is, a school romantic comedy. From a story standpoint, many other shoujos are probably better (say, Basara), but they don't succeed all around as well in their sub-genres as this one seems to do in its sub-genre. I didn't want to sound like an overly excited fangirl here, but I did want to answer your question with something slightly more substantial than "omgzzz best story ever!!11," if you know what I mean. |
YorokoJan 17, 2010 9:59 PM
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shinkeikaku said: I read one chapter of Dengeki Daisy. I couldn't be bothered to read any more. For me, that doesn't deserve the top shoujo title. What does? Banana Fish probably. Emotional, gripping, great characters, and some machine gun fights thrown in to liven things up. Unique to the point I haven't read anything else quite like it. Oh, it was written in the mid 80's to 90's, so it still appeals to readers a couple decades later. Where is it ranked? Wow, 877. Worse than I thought. Oh well... can't say I've ever had faith in MAL rankings, but that seals it. Haha, after the first chapter you probably thought "Ugh not this again!" and dropped it like a bad habit. I can't really blame you - with many stories, it seems like people are either captivated like no other from the first chapter or bored to tears, depending on what you like. If we all thought the same way, the world would be boring indeed. Well, I certainly agree with you that you can only put so much faith in the rankings. I've never heard a bad word about Banana Fish from anyone anywhere, so I guess that accomplishment alone says a lot. I put a high value on the opinions of seasoned manga readers (that is, ones who have read a lot), which means I should probably start reading Banana Fish ASAP. |
YorokoJan 17, 2010 10:02 PM
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Yorokobu said: I didn't want to sound like an overly excited fangirl here, but I did want to answer your question with something slightly more substantial than "omgzzz best story ever!!11," if you know what I mean. On the contrary; that was an excellent, extremely detailed response which managed to interest me in reading the manga. And when you mentioned the author being male, and his unique drawing style, I looked it up and realized it was Motomi, who I have already read 2 manga from. (Beast Master as well as Penguin Prince) I think he's one of the better shoujo authors out there, but he's really hot and cold for me; when he's writing about two high school kids hanging out and having fun with one another, he's very good. When he tries to inject some fake drama or conflict outside of the two main characters, the results are as poor as those of most authors. |
| I like Dengeki Daisy but I still think the best shoujo is Koukou Debut. Generally I don't like shoujo, but a few are good. |
YoungVagabond said: On the contrary; that was an excellent, extremely detailed response which managed to interest me in reading the manga. And when you mentioned the author being male, and his unique drawing style, I looked it up and realized it was Motomi, who I have already read 2 manga from. (Beast Master as well as Penguin Prince) I think he's one of the better shoujo authors out there, but he's really hot and cold for me; when he's writing about two high school kids hanging out and having fun with one another, he's very good. When he tries to inject some fake drama or conflict outside of the two main characters, the results are as poor as those of most authors. Fair enough, fair enough. It's good that you're already familiar with his stuff - this series has more of the same shenanigans, although it's a little better because it's a longer series (the longest he's ever done). Thus, the characters have a little more backstory and depth. Judging by your maturity and tastes in manga, you'll probably think it's average at best. I guess it depends on your tolerance for the "fake drama," as you call it. To me, fake drama in shoujo includes: 1. Pretty much any prolonged love triangles/squares trying to break the main couple up 2. Chapter after chapter worrying about whether the main two can be in the same class (due to differing grades), on the same athletic team, or going to the same college. To me, these things are very eyeroll-inducing. 3. Standard episodes like "oh no, he saw me naked at the hot springs!" and other nonsense. 4. And worst of all: The ever-present nagging parent/grandparent of one of the people (usually the guy's parent) that doesn't approve of the relationship. I mean, I have a high tolerance for these kinds of things, but even I will admit that a lot of it is rather childish and stupid. After all, I'm not in middle school or high school anymore, so I guess I can't relate as well anymore to the "drama." Dengeki Daisy has none of the above mentioned things (so far...), and I don't think it ever will. For some of the cliches that are present, he does them in different and hilarious ways. Some of the drama can be a bit overdone, but sometimes that's done for comedic effect. At other times, I think the serious parts are appropriately serious and do not feel like eyeroll-inducing drama. As an aside, I really dislike manga with excessive gore and violence, especially towards women. I'm usually fine with it if it if it's in moderate amounts and fits in the context of the story, such as a murder in a thriller manga or some gore in a horror manga. Imagine my surprise, then, when I read through 100+ chapters of Berserk very quickly and was actually entertained. I still dislike the violence, but it fits with the drama and tragedy of the story. However, after a certain point, the tragedies got ridiculous. After so a hard life, you sympathize with the main character, but when he has literally hundereds of tragic situations piled on him, I start to get desensitized to it. It's kind of hard to explain, but I feel like there has to be at least SOMETHING positive going on, otherwise the plotline turns into "how are we gonna screw this guy over NEXT?" To me, this kind of thing can be even more of a "fake drama" situation than the above mentioned things. Yes, I know Berserk is a fantasy manga and you're supposed to suspend disbelief anyway. It's a great manga, but a few small changes could make it all the better. Anyway, I guess anyone's impression of a series entirely depends on your individual perception of what is "fake drama" and what is not. If you think it's deep, you will like it. If you think it's not deep but can appreciate the way in which its presented, then you will like it. If you're rolling your eyes, then you will....not like it. I actually never thought much about the presentation of drama in manga before. Good thing I started coming to the forums, although it can be an "interesting" place here sometimes. |
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AlexisSolitaire said: I like Dengeki Daisy but I still think the best shoujo is Koukou Debut. Generally I don't like shoujo, but a few are good. Yes, Koukou Debut is also up there in my mind as one of the best romantic comedies ever. Although there were some cliches, I was blown away by the heartfelt dialogue. When I read it, I thought, "This is how shoujo slice-of-life should have been done all along." As a side note - I actually started watching Gintama a couple of weeks ago thanks to your signature. I was intrigued by the dude on the button and downloaded a ton of episodes. After several OMGLOLWTF moments, I decided that it was indeed going to become my anime crack for the foreseeable future. Even my friend, who is about 10 years older than I am and extremely mature and eloquent, couldn't say anything except "HAAA HAAA OHHH MY GOD" during the epic toilet paper "battle." That's +1 in my books for immature Japanese men that create anime and +3 for potty humor... because that "crap" never gets old! |
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Yorokobu said: I guess it depends on your tolerance for the "fake drama," as you call it. To me, fake drama in shoujo includes: 1. Pretty much any prolonged love triangles/squares trying to break the main couple up 2. Chapter after chapter worrying about whether the main two can be in the same class (due to differing grades), on the same athletic team, or going to the same college. To me, these things are very eyeroll-inducing. 3. Standard episodes like "oh no, he saw me naked at the hot springs!" and other nonsense. 4. And worst of all: The ever-present nagging parent/grandparent of one of the people (usually the guy's parent) that doesn't approve of the relationship. All of those are good examples, but I was thinking along the lines of artificial misunderstandings, overly evil jealous girls plotting something, and medical situations/accidents that are laughably fake, and would never occur in anything resembling the real world. By the way, after having read Tongari Root, by the same author as Akuma Love Song, I've concluded Toumori is the best modern-day shoujo author. Her work manages to get around a lot of those problems above. Yorokorobu said: As an aside, I really dislike manga with excessive gore and violence, especially towards women. For me, excessive violence is the tasty spice that makes reading the manga that much more delicious. Violence towards women does irk me quite a bit however, and I hate when it's used in something like a shoujo manga, as it violates the rest of its light-hearted mood. Yes, I know Berserk is a fantasy manga and you're supposed to suspend disbelief anyway. It's a great manga, but a few small changes could make it all the better. I don't know how far you read into Berserk since you don't have it listed, but the first 21 volumes were a sensational masterpiece...and everything after that was a train wreck. It's painful just thinking how downhill the manga went. |
YoungVagabondJan 20, 2010 12:38 AM
| I don't really have an answer to the first question in the topic title, despite having read quite a bit of shoujo over the years. I still haven't discovered anything I'd call a "masterpiece" in the shoujo demographic. Guess I need to look harder? About Dengeki Daisy: It's good (or at least decent) for a shoujo manga. That being said, there's nothing particularly remarkable to it from what I've read. There isn't much that sets it apart from the plethora of other similar series. There's no "wow factor". I can see the plot twists coming miles away as well. The one thing I like about DD though is that the characters are tolerable (even likable) as opposed to some 90% of the other shoujo manga I've read. So it has that in its favor at least. The art style is fairly easy on the eyes too. And while I don't think it's as great as the ratings might suggest, I strongly prefer Dengeki Daisy to the author's other works (I hated Beast Master). I won't touch on Koukou Debut too much because it's been a while since I've read it and my memory is a little foggy. I'll just say that I find it overrated as well and that the ending disappointed me. I felt that it ran out of steam in the last few volumes big time. On Banana Fish: I've only read the first volume but it was a pleasant surprise. I would never have guessed it was shoujo if I hadn't been aware of it beforehand. |
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Yorokobu said: AlexisSolitaire said: I like Dengeki Daisy but I still think the best shoujo is Koukou Debut. Generally I don't like shoujo, but a few are good. As a side note - I actually started watching Gintama a couple of weeks ago thanks to your signature. I was intrigued by the dude on the button and downloaded a ton of episodes. After several OMGLOLWTF moments, I decided that it was indeed going to become my anime crack for the foreseeable future. Even my friend, who is about 10 years older than I am and extremely mature and eloquent, couldn't say anything except "HAAA HAAA OHHH MY GOD" during the epic toilet paper "battle." That's +1 in my books for immature Japanese men that create anime and +3 for potty humor... because that "crap" never gets old! Lol. Glad to see I've influenced people to watch Gintama through my sig. |
| I don't really care about top-lists. Mainly because of things like this: tehnominator said: Why is Junjou Romantica in the top 100 anime of MAL? That was terrible. You sit anyone who is not a yaoi fan and let them watch it and they will cringe at how cheesy it is and how poorly written are the story and characters. But about 4000 yaoi fangirls will beg to disagree. Seriously, go look at the stats. ...however, I would like for my favorite shojo-manga, Please Save My Earth, to have a higher spot simply because it would attract a lot more of potential readers to this wonderful yet sorely overlooked series. |
| [fancy signature here] |
| Who pays attention to shoujo manga? |
| This is a serious post. You're not allowed to delete it. |
CDRW said: Who pays attention to shoujo manga? Girls, mostly. |
tehnominator said: YoungVagabond said: CDRW said: Who pays attention to shoujo manga? Girls, mostly. Curiously, shoujo manga for men is surprisingly rather entertaining. I agree; shounen manga can be a lot of fun. |
tehnominator said: It doesn't really matter what the best is because niche fans will always blindly vote anything that satisfied their criteria. Why is Junjou Romantica in the top 100 anime of MAL? That was terrible. You sit anyone who is not a yaoi fan and let them watch it and they will cringe at how cheesy it is and how poorly written are the story and characters. But about 4000 yaoi fangirls will beg to disagree. Seriously, go look at the stats. Dengeki Daisy never appealed to me, which is why I haven't read it, but the best shoujo I've read to date must have been Fruits Basket. Haha, that's a very true statement about the niche fans. I've personally never read any yaoi, and have the sneaking suspicion that it probably wouldn't be one of my favorite genres. Still, I plan on reading at least a couple of them just to say that I did. After all, I like to at least give everything a chance before utterly dissmissing it. That is, except anything ero-guro (e.g. anything by Waita Uziga). There's absolutely no excuse for that garbage in my humble opinion. Junjou Romantica does seem to have a ridiculously high score despite what you said, so it makes me all the more curious. I was thinking about starting with Kyuuso wa Cheese no Yume wo Miru anyway, because apparently it's nothing short of "teh awesome" (as yaoi fans would have you believe). I can't believe more authors haven't tapped into the goldmine of "rabid fangirl power." Of course, Japan has this idea down with the yaoi fanbase, but other countries seem to be somewhat slow to realize the potential. I mean, first you have a series like Harry Potter, that could legitimately appeal to males and females of all ages. Then, you have a series like the Twilight series, which probably has a 95-99% female reader base. However, those books and movies sell like hotcakes, even though they're no better (or slightly worse) than the millions of other young adult reads. This is, of course, due to the terrifying consumer potential of rabid fangirl power. In this case, it greatly affects the ratings on this site, even for some of my beloved shoujo series. ='( Oh, and also... Fruits Basket?! That was actually one of the last answers I was expecting on this thread, as I've seen a lot of people that like to prove that they've read more than just the "top popular stuff" by solely naming obscure series. I don't mean to insult anyone's choice here - far from it. So far, I've been quite impressed by the intelligent responses here. Fruits Basket was my favorite series for a long, long time. What can I say - I'm a veterinary student and I like cute manga'd animals. Of course, the inspiring and likeable cast certainly helps matters. You can imagine my dilemma, then, when a couple of months ago, I read a series and thought, "I might actually like this better than Fruits Basket, which has been my favorite for years." I still go back and forth about which one I actually like better, but both of these series get an intense amount of love from me. Oh, and also I always love reading your manga and anime reviews. Good stuff. |
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YoungVagabond said: All of those are good examples, but I was thinking along the lines of artificial misunderstandings, overly evil jealous girls plotting something, and medical situations/accidents that are laughably fake, and would never occur in anything resembling the real world. Haha, how could I forget about artificial misunderstandings, scheming jealous people, and fake medical drama? Those are some fantastic examples of drama at its worse. Seriously, every other series seems to have artificial misunderstandings. For me, the medical drama is especially cringe-inducing because I'm going into the (veterinary) medical profession (most humans and domestic animals have similar sorts of diseases), and most medical drama on TV or in anime/manga is just wrong on so many levels. Drama like a car accident is fine, I guess, but throw in something like any sort of cancer, and all the characters' emo levels ramp up by about 80%. By the way, after having read Tongari Root, by the same author as Akuma Love Song, I've concluded Toumori is the best modern-day shoujo author. Her work manages to get around a lot of those problems above. Oh? Never heard of it. I shall put both of those on my ever growing to-read list. For me, excessive violence is the tasty spice that makes reading the manga that much more delicious. Violence towards women does irk me quite a bit however, and I hate when it's used in something like a shoujo manga, as it violates the rest of its light-hearted mood. True, violence can be interesting if done properly. I just never want to get to the point where I'm completely desensitized to it. I guess it shouldn't be a problem for me anyway, as I'm good about separating the thoughts and feelings from a fictitious story from the horrible violence that goes on in the real world. What may be entertaining in a manga, of course, would be a different situation if those things happened in reality. Speaking of which - I started reading Battle Royale out of curiosity, and that is some srs bsness right there. Yeah, violence in a lighthearted shoujo is certainly misplaced, but there is a very fine line here. For example, one of the most common cliches is the "attempted rape but the guy saves the day at the last minute" sort of situation. In a serious josei or even shoujo, where all the drama is serious, this would not be a terrible plot development. It's only so wrong and misplaced in a lighthearted series because a topic like rape is treated so flippantly. On the other hand, I think otherwise lighthearted series should be allowed at least some drama. The drama doesn't always have to be attempted rape, but whatever it is, I think serious drama is appropriate in a lighthearted series if (and only if) the characters treat the drama seriously. If you go through something even mildly traumatic, one would think you wouldn't forget about it half a chapter later. There are 100% lighthearted romances out there (affectionately called shoujo fluff), but to me, those aren't nearly as interesting as ones with romance AND (non-fake) drama. I don't know how far you read into Berserk since you don't have it listed, but the first 21 volumes were a sensational masterpiece...and everything after that was a train wreck. It's painful just thinking how downhill the manga went. Oops, I read it a while ago and forgot to put in on my list (I do that quite a lot). Let's see... I was at about chapter 125, which I think is midway through the 17th volume. I guess I've got at least 4 more volumes of entertainment left, then it may go on hold for a long while. |
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LucySky said: I don't really have an answer to the first question in the topic title, despite having read quite a bit of shoujo over the years. I still haven't discovered anything I'd call a "masterpiece" in the shoujo demographic. Guess I need to look harder? Nah, you don't need to look harder. Unfortunately, out of the big four (seinen, josei, shounen, and shoujo), shoujos are the weakest overall by a mile. (There is a smaller amount of josei overall, but the ones that are done well are fantastic.) This is sad, because it's like some sort of inherent assumption that girls can't handle thought-provoking, well made series. This is perhaps why girls that DO enjoy that sort of thing read well-made shounens or seinens instead. That's not to say that shounens (or even seinens) are exempt from being mind-numbingly trite and brainless (LOLBLEACH), it's just that there seems to be more of this stuff in shoujos. About Dengeki Daisy: It's good (or at least decent) for a shoujo manga. That being said, there's nothing particularly remarkable to it from what I've read. There isn't much that sets it apart from the plethora of other similar series. There's no "wow factor". I can see the plot twists coming miles away as well. The one thing I like about DD though is that the characters are tolerable (even likable) as opposed to some 90% of the other shoujo manga I've read. So it has that in its favor at least. The art style is fairly easy on the eyes too. And while I don't think it's as great as the ratings might suggest, I strongly prefer Dengeki Daisy to the author's other works (I hated Beast Master). I can't disagree with you there. From a completely objective standpoint, DD is pretty much similar to many other shoujos with slightly better artwork and storylines. For me, the "wow factor" wasn't a logical point that I could explain well in words. Due to personal circumstances in my life, this series probably affects me more on an emotional level. One small scene that completely blew me away was one of the things "Daisy" said in a text message. Another point which I really enjoyed: I won't touch on Koukou Debut too much because it's been a while since I've read it and my memory is a little foggy. I'll just say that I find it overrated as well and that the ending disappointed me. I felt that it ran out of steam in the last few volumes big time. Sadly, even some of the best series ever created seem to run out of steam at the end. Such is life. On Banana Fish: I've only read the first volume but it was a pleasant surprise. I would never have guessed it was shoujo if I hadn't been aware of it beforehand. Yeah, apparently it's very unconventional, which gets me excited about reading it. |
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Yorokobu said: I'd probably say Fruits Basket myself. It has this sort of timeless story that's really appealing to people who don't even read much manga to begin with. I know quite a few people who read Fruits Basket that pretty much never have anything to do with manga or anime, ever. And they love it! It's one of the first series I ever read, and one of the longest I've read to date. I've completely reread it several times, and it still made me laugh and cry. There are are so many characters and so many storylines weaving in and out, with each being resolved in the two volume finale. Fruits Basket is just on a whole different scale. Fruits Basket was my favorite series for a long, long time. What can I say - I'm a veterinary student and I like cute manga'd animals. Of course, the inspiring and likeable cast certainly helps matters. You can imagine my dilemma, then, when a couple of months ago, I read a series and thought, "I might actually like this better than Fruits Basket, which has been my favorite for years." I still go back and forth about which one I actually like better, but both of these series get an intense amount of love from me. It's not my actual favorite shoujo manga, however. That would be Cat Street, but that's more of a personal decision. I identified with the manga ridiculously much. It's not a school romance story and instead deals with a teenage girl who is a hikikomori suffering from social anxiety disorder. The story follows her opening up to people again and finding her own place in society. I love it to death. <3 Yorokobu said: ...I would not start there. D: It's a little much. Doushitemo Furetakunai is a lot more low-key and something you could appreciate without ever really reading too much yaoi, or being very interested in the genre (the author has an even tamer one shot - Kanjou Spectrum that's very sweet, but has a high school setting verses an office setting). Kyuuso wa Cheese no Yume wo Miru is a bit harder to identify with. Personally, I like the author's shoujo stuff more - After School Nightmare is another top notch shoujo series and Kuro Bara Alice a wonderfully gothic take on vampires.Junjou Romantica does seem to have a ridiculously high score despite what you said, so it makes me all the more curious. I was thinking about starting with Kyuuso wa Cheese no Yume wo Miru anyway, because apparently it's nothing short of "teh awesome" (as yaoi fans would have you believe). I see Skip Beat! is the second highest shoujo series. I'm pleasantly surprised by that. It's a very hilarious series with a very strong lead. |
 ジリティック♡BEGINNER |
Yorokobu said: I can't believe more authors haven't tapped into the goldmine of "rabid fangirl power." Of course, Japan has this idea down with the yaoi fanbase, but other countries seem to be somewhat slow to realize the potential. I mean, first you have a series like Harry Potter, that could legitimately appeal to males and females of all ages. Then, you have a series like the Twilight series, which probably has a 95-99% female reader base. However, those books and movies sell like hotcakes, even though they're no better (or slightly worse) than the millions of other young adult reads. This is, of course, due to the terrifying consumer potential of rabid fangirl power. In this case, it greatly affects the ratings on this site, even for some of my beloved shoujo series. ='( It's completely off-topic, but this isn't true when it comes to literature publishing houses. The conventional wisdom among publishers and editors (most of whom are women) is that "men don't read at all, only women do. Let's publish a bunch of chick lit!" They're partially correct too, so literature is tremendously overrepresented for female tastes, including those still in high school. From what I've gleaned from the top manga sellers posted in the news forum, there appears to be more catering to the female demographic than the male one too, although not as extreme as in books. Yorokobu said: True, violence can be interesting if done properly. I just never want to get to the point where I'm completely desensitized to it. I've been completely desensitized to violence since I was 14 years old, but it's not really a problem. Like porn, it's still enjoyable to look at even if I've seen it before, and secondly, I can compartmentalize entertainment from reality in my head. Yorokobu said: Yeah, violence in a lighthearted shoujo is certainly misplaced, but there is a very fine line here. For example, one of the most common cliches is the "attempted rape but the guy saves the day at the last minute" sort of situation. I remember being very shocked and taken out of the story when I realized how many attempted rapes there are in shoujo works. Unlike violence, rape is not a pleasant thing to witness or even contemplate in any medium, and that it's frequently put in a light-hearted comic for little girls speaks volumes about standards in Japan. There's really no quicker way to ruin a shoujo than to insert that element just for the hell of it. Yorokobu said: Oops, I read it a while ago and forgot to put in on my list (I do that quite a lot). Let's see... I was at about chapter 125, which I think is midway through the 17th volume. I guess I've got at least 4 more volumes of entertainment left, then it may go on hold for a long while. Well, don't let me influence you; some people really like Berserk after the 21st volume. It treads water for a while, and has yet to hit genuinely "poor" status, but it doesn't live up to the earlier material. |
YoungVagabond said: This has got to be one of the worst plot elements ever. It's pretty much never has any lasting damage on the victim either, which has got to be some of the most rage inducing things ever. Though the best is when the girl gets blamed somehow. And it's not limited to Japan. The worst offender I've ever come across is 100% Perfect Girl - a manhwa that starts out great and becomes ridiculous with the amount of attempted rapes. I just want it to end already. Rape is also extremely prevalent in yaoi, which is also aimed at females. I just don't get it. Yorokobu said: I remember being very shocked and taken out of the story when I realized how many attempted rapes there are in shoujo works. Unlike violence, rape is not a pleasant thing to witness or even contemplate in any medium, and that it's frequently put in a light-hearted comic for little girls speaks volumes about standards in Japan.Yeah, violence in a lighthearted shoujo is certainly misplaced, but there is a very fine line here. For example, one of the most common cliches is the "attempted rape but the guy saves the day at the last minute" sort of situation.  |
ジリティック♡BEGINNER |
| My favorite shoujo manga is Lovely Complex, hands down. It's uproariously funny and often touching, even if the violence between the leads does throw me a bit. I like it better than both Fruits Basket, which I rather like, and Dengeki Daisy, which is fun, but so far not great in my opinion (after the first volume). And I, too, hate the attempted rape thing (in any medium), although off the top of my head the only shoujo anime (never read the manga) I can think of that does it is Fushigi Yuugi... I think there were a few manga I dropped really fast that used that... oh, and Penguin Revolution, perhaps... although the main character there is TOUGH. |
adamantine said: I'd probably say Fruits Basket myself. It has this sort of timeless story that's really appealing to people who don't even read much manga to begin with. I know quite a few people who read Fruits Basket that pretty much never have anything to do with manga or anime, ever. And they love it! It's one of the first series I ever read, and one of the longest I've read to date. I've completely reread it several times, and it still made me laugh and cry. There are are so many characters and so many storylines weaving in and out, with each being resolved in the two volume finale. Fruits Basket is just on a whole different scale. Fruits Basket is on a different level, I agree. All the side characters get their time in the spotlight and their own appropriate conclusions. It's a shame storytelling like that is hard (for me) to find. adamantine said: It's not my actual favorite shoujo manga, however. That would be Cat Street, but that's more of a personal decision. I identified with the manga ridiculously much. It's not a school romance story and instead deals with a teenage girl who is a hikikomori suffering from social anxiety disorder. The story follows her opening up to people again and finding her own place in society. I love it to death. <3 Interesting choice; a lot of people seem to love that one. I'll probably read that one soon since it gets such praise from a lot of people, although admittedly it won't be everyone's cup of tea. I did enjoy Welcome to the NHK! though, even if some of the plot was a little annoying. ...I would not start there. D: It's a little much. Doushitemo Furetakunai is a lot more low-key and something you could appreciate without ever really reading too much yaoi, or being very interested in the genre (the author has an even tamer one shot - Kanjou Spectrum that's very sweet, but has a high school setting verses an office setting). Kyuuso wa Cheese no Yume wo Miru is a bit harder to identify with. Personally, I like the author's shoujo stuff more - After School Nightmare is another top notch shoujo series and Kuro Bara Alice a wonderfully gothic take on vampires. Ok, I took your advice and went for it. I read all of Doushitemo Furetakunai and... erm... I'm not sure how I feel about it: I see Skip Beat! is the second highest shoujo series. I'm pleasantly surprised by that. It's a very hilarious series with a very strong lead. I'm having a little bit of a hard time getting into Skip Beat. It's funny occasionally and does have an interesting lead, but it's slow in the first several chapters. One of my good friends in real life just loves it to death, though, so I'll probably keep reading it so we can discuss it later. Such is life. |
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YoungVagabond said: It's completely off-topic, but this isn't true when it comes to literature publishing houses. The conventional wisdom among publishers and editors (most of whom are women) is that "men don't read at all, only women do. Let's publish a bunch of chick lit!" They're partially correct too, so literature is tremendously overrepresented for female tastes, including those still in high school. From what I've gleaned from the top manga sellers posted in the news forum, there appears to be more catering to the female demographic than the male one too, although not as extreme as in books. Oh? I guess I didn't think about it hard enough before posting. You're 100% correct. Not all of the things targeted towards women are terrible, but a lot of chick lit is so bad, I literally want to vomit on it. This is especially true for romance novels - Nora Roberts and Nicholas Sparks have to be the worst offenders for me. When I go to the bookstore, I usually head straight to the sci-fi/fantasy section, then to the history, world travel, philosophy, and young adult sections, respectively. Except in the young adult section, I can usually avoid the insipid trash aimed specifically for girls/women. Of course, I do realize that I'm quite the hypocrite. For some reason, the cheesy stuff that I can't abide in "chick lit" is somehow not as bad for me when in manga format. I guess because everything else I read (and watch) has little romance, I get my fix through manga. *shrugs* I remember being very shocked and taken out of the story when I realized how many attempted rapes there are in shoujo works. Unlike violence, rape is not a pleasant thing to witness or even contemplate in any medium, and that it's frequently put in a light-hearted comic for little girls speaks volumes about standards in Japan. Indeed, one could write a lengthy essay on the messed-up aspects of society in Japan, especially with regards to the sexualization of children and the fascination with youthfulness. (Even a women in her 30s will act like a child to appear sexy.) No country is without its faults, though, so it would be unfair to say that such things only happen in one society. There's really no quicker way to ruin a shoujo than to insert that element just for the hell of it. Couldn't have said it any better. Well, don't let me influence you; some people really like Berserk after the 21st volume. It treads water for a while, and has yet to hit genuinely "poor" status, but it doesn't live up to the earlier material. Well, I might still give it a chance. There's nothing sadder than a great series that runs out of steam. If nothing else, it deserves some credit for making me feel genuine rage at "that event" that happened in front of Guts. Several series can make me feel happy, sad, melancholic, or whatnot, but I have never before (or since) felt genuine outrage and anger as I did when that crap hit the fan in Berserk. On another note, I did start reading Akuma to Love Song. WOW...just wow. I am very impressed, especially because the protagonist is the most unique one I've ever seen in a shoujo series. This is the first series I've read where the author did NOT epically fail when using the "brutally honest" character type. Thanks for the recommendation. |
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bubblehead said: My favorite shoujo manga is Lovely Complex, hands down. It's uproariously funny and often touching, even if the violence between the leads does throw me a bit. I like it better than both Fruits Basket, which I rather like, and Dengeki Daisy, which is fun, but so far not great in my opinion (after the first volume). I really enjoyed the Lovely Complex anime, despite the craptastic artwork, but have not read the manga yet. That was one of those series that hit a bit too close to home for me, as I'm somewhat tall and all the guys I've liked or dated have been noticeably shorter than me. If a "Lovely Complex" is a "complex where you want to feel lovely but can't because you're tall," then I...probably have it. I do really like the main characters. Also, if you're even mildly interested in Dengeki Daisy, I encourage you to keep reading. As with many series, some interesting things happen and it gets a little better. (I apologize for this unspecific and stupidly worded comment, but there you go.) Although personally, I liked it throughout. And I, too, hate the attempted rape thing (in any medium), although off the top of my head the only shoujo anime (never read the manga) I can think of that does it is Fushigi Yuugi... I think there were a few manga I dropped really fast that used that... oh, and Penguin Revolution, perhaps... although the main character there is TOUGH. Heh... Fushigi Yuugi... even my non-discerning friend who likes E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G hates that one. There are so many shoujos that use that plot device, it's not even worth listing them all. Of course, the attempted rape is forgiven if the dude is rich, or - better yet - if he's "really a good guy" and it was all a "misunderstanding." When the heroine inevitably falls in love with the offender, I find it a little... odd. |
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Yorokobu said: You definitely wouldn't like Kyuuso wa Cheese no Yume wo Miru then. Shounen-ai would be more you're cup of tea, but you hardly need to force yourself to read BL, there are plenty of shoujo out there.Ok, I took your advice and went for it. I read all of Doushitemo Furetakunai and... erm... I'm not sure how I feel about it: Truthfully, finding good romances on the longer side is pretty hard. They tend to grow stale if now done right. Of course when they are done right, it is epic. I'm pretty use to shorter series though since I like reading completed things. I've already got too many things on hold because they're still being published. D: Yorokobu said: If you don't enjoy the type of humor in Skip Beat! you'll probably not ever really get into the series. The humor is the main driving force of the series - 151 chapters in and that hasn't changed. Maybe if you're in the mood for it you'll enjoy it more. Skip Beat! has a lot of people that don't really like it. I really was surprised to see it so high up.I'm having a little bit of a hard time getting into Skip Beat. It's funny occasionally and does have an interesting lead, but it's slow in the first several chapters. One of my good friends in real life just loves it to death, though, so I'll probably keep reading it so we can discuss it later. Such is life. |
ジリティック♡BEGINNER |
| Overall I don't think romance gets better then Densha Otoko. |
I won't be fooled by a mere 3-d girl!!! |
Tekizen said: Overall I don't think romance gets better then Densha Otoko. But is the shoujo manga version of it any good? Better than Dengeki Daisy? Doubt it's as good as the original... and well, the original is kinda creepy too. Yorokobu said: Eh, Doushitemo is an example of something good at the mediocrity of a genre (so maybe it's like DD from what you say?). If you really want to try something, go for authors that write in other genres as well (this applies for all genres imo). They are less mired in stereotypes/common plot devices found within the genre. For BL, try Yamashita Tomoko (started seinen, went BL, does josei too). For something really unique, try Nakamura Asumiko (BL, josei, seinen, good oneshots) or basso (BL, josei, seinen, general slice of life). If you hate all their works, then you can safely say you don't like some of the best the BL genre has to offer. :)Ok, I took your advice and went for it. I read all of Doushitemo Furetakunai and... erm... I'm not sure how I feel about it |
shinkeikakuJan 29, 2010 7:22 AM
shinkeikaku said: Eh, Doushitemo is an example of something good at the mediocrity of a genre (so maybe it's like DD from what you say?). If you really want to try something, go for authors that write in other genres as well (this applies for all genres imo). They are less mired in stereotypes/common plot devices found within the genre. For BL, try Yamashita Tomoko (started seinen, went BL, does josei too). For something really unique, try Nakamura Asumiko (BL, josei, seinen, good oneshots) or basso (BL, josei, seinen, general slice of life). If you hate all their works, then you can safely say you don't like some of the best the BL genre has to offer. :) Oh, I see. Doushitemo wasn't terrible, but I guess I wasn't particularly interested in that kind of story. Actually, thanks for taking the time to give me some recommendations. I'll try and read some stuff from those authors before I definitively say whether I like it or not. In fact, some of my favorite mangas are ones that I would've never read on my own, but that friends insisted that I read. I try to keep a somewhat open mind about such things :o |
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| uhm yeah no offence but I don't think that dengeki daisy is the best shoujo manga either.. even though I do like it I can't say it's no1 :p if I had to choose I would say hana kimi is my all time favorite shoujo manga ^^ |
| I'll be honest, I enjoyed reading Dengeki Daisy, as for it being top on MAL, I'm pretty skeptical if it really belongs there. The top 100 isn't always agreeable. |
| no... Dengeki Daisy is good, but not good enought to be first (in my opinion) And the best shoujo manga ... oh well, maybe NANA? ''/ |
| I love DD. But its one of the best not the best. I'm not sure what the bestest ever would be. |
| I really tried to get into Dengeki Daisy. One of my friends is an extra-big fan of it, so Idecided to give it a go... and it reminded me too much of a very similar, downright awful manga that I had read a few days before. So I ended up dropping it in the end. I also feel weird for not saying that my favorite was Fruits Basket- I didn't enjoy the anime that much, so I had absolutely no incentive to read the manga. For me, I have a tie for my favorite shoujo manga- one is Someday's Dreamers, which doesn't have the main protagonist in a romantic relationship at all! Instead it's just a girl, trying to become a mage, and dealing with all that comes with it. A lot of the situations hit home, so that may have raised my opinion of it, but I do think that it is very good regardless, and wish it got some more love. My other has to be 1/2 Prince. It reminds me of Ouran, but with more action and it's not a reverse harem. The main heroine is no wilting flower, which is awesome. I also feel that's it's a tad more realistic in the way it portrays online relationships- people have fallen in love with online personas, and people do have different-gendered characters in online games. |
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shinkeikaku said: What does? Banana Fish probably. Emotional, gripping, great characters, and some machine gun fights thrown in to liven things up. Unique to the point I haven't read anything else quite like it. Oh, it was written in the mid 80's to 90's, so it still appeals to readers a couple decades later. Where is it ranked? Wow, 877. Worse than I thought. Oh well... can't say I've ever had faith in MAL rankings, but that seals it. Well, you just took the words right out of my mouth for who deserves the top spot. It made almost every single manga I had read before and most anime I had seen before of any genre look like it was written by child in comparison to Banana Fish's greatness. It's gone up quite a few rankings to 753 but really just 753? That's certainly a ranking faith ruiner for anyone who has read it. And I'm still the only one who written a review for it! |
zawa113Apr 6, 2010 7:21 PM
| i really haven't read Dangeki Daisy , 'cuz the top shoujo the manga site that im reading is Vampire Knight followed by Skip Beat and Kimi no Todoke , i think these series deserves their spot , and Dangeki Daisy is only on the top 25 spot ... |
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| Oh no! Vampire Knight is like manga-Twilight. It is definately not one of the best shoujo manga! It's a pointless, obvious love-triangle where no matter how they try and show the lead female's interest in Boy B, you always know Boy A is gonna get the girl, because he is more 'special' as in the case, he is a vampire with a lot of power over other vampires... But anyway. I love Dengeki Daisy and started reading it because I saw it on the top manga list. I enjoyed it so much, and think it does so well because it has shounen humour in a shoujo manga and the characters aren't as stereotyped. I also think Skip Beat is up there in the top shoujo series. It is just so fun, and hasn't departed from the main plotpoint (Kyoko's attempt to succeed in showbiz to prove to Sho she is not a useless slave to him.) and doesn't stray too far into the romance. It hints and hints but then pulls away suddenly, prolonging the tension and annoying the fangirls XD To compare it to a similar (most likely rip-off) series like Honey Hunt, where the main character starts off wanting to be big in showbiz to get revenge on her superstar mother, but the story ends up focusing more on her love triangle with 2 hot showbiz brothers instead. Skip Beat is just done so much better without the focus on the romance. |
 Check out SunnyCon! The North-East of England's newest and biggest convention of anime, manga and Japanese culture! Now a club on MAL too! |
cabbit-chan said: I also think Skip Beat is up there in the top shoujo series. Honestly, I couldn't get into this series. I read about 15 chapters before dropping it. The concept was interesting and all, but art pretty much dishivelled the story telling. I couldn't tell what was happening sometimes, especially when those "inner beasts" came out of Kyoko and the overall flow of the story telling wasn't grabbing my attention. I may watch the anime though since I like the idea of a woman bent on revenge. I haven't read Dengeki Daisy, but I've read a few other shoujos. They were good in the comedy aspect (some were downright hilarious) but the only one that was a true masterpeice in my opinion was Fruits Basket. It was a feel good manga that made me think about the moral/value that was set in that chapter on top of balancing comedy, drama etc. I don't think any other manga has played with my emotions as devilishly as Fruits Baskets. I agree there's a lot of overrated shoujos ranked high --- the one I absolutely cannot fathom its popularity is Hana-Kimi. They spent 145 chapters going around in circles! It would always be "Has he found out I'm a girl?" or "Does she know I like her?" then there would be a lot of running around and back to square one where both are assured their secrets are safe. And the convienience of it all...they should've just slapped the fantasy tag on the genres, 'coz there is no way in hell life would be that favourable. |
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| Dengeki Daisy certainly doesn't deserve the top spot , there are loads of other manga slightly ar a lot better( i dont mean DD is bad- its very good) .. |
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| DD is very good, but due to the simple fact it' not complete yet, is kinda stupid that it's even on top of the list, I think incomplete work shouldn't even really hold a rating until it's finished. The manga could turn to complete shit in like the next chapter for all we know. |
| It doesn't think, it doesn't feel, it doesn't laugh or cry..... All it does from dusk till dawn is make the soldiers die. |
| Fushigi Yuugi Ranked #1697 SCREW YOU, MAL. |
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| I've never read Dengeki Daisy, and I'm not really all that into shoujo... but the best shoujo manga I've read (and am still reading) is Mars. Then would be High School Debut. |
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| Firstly, this site is little bit more dedicated to anime, rather than to manga. If you check mangaupdates.com, polls and the ratings there is visibly different. Comedy, shoujo, romance, school are one of most favorites genres, plus it is easy to understand, and it is enjoyable, relaxing. Unlike Monster or 20th Century boy, which needs little bit more concentration to the plot, while reading something similar to Dengeki Daisy, you don't even need to fully pay attention to it, to understand it. Let's say, boulvars today are sometimes even more famous amongst the teenagers rather than some CNN or BBC which provides fine material, and news. And if you notice, boulvars are always easy to understand, unlike reading some newspapers, that talks about politics. It is pretty much similar, comparing those with Dengeki Daisy and 20th Century Boys, in my opinion |
| The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth. The named is the mother of the ten thousand things. I do not recall, Jesus ever saying "build churches, temples, and kill those who doesn't follow christianity..." nor he said "christianity is religion". News for VN immigrants in EU: vietinfo.eu |
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