| Do you want more of this? Or can you live without it? Or do you think it has become tiresome? |
| They can often be pretty funny. I loved the first season of Seitokai no Ichizon because of this. |
 It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
| one of reason why gintama fillers and 4th wall break is great. |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| I love it. Especially in Gintama and Medaka Box (the manga) |
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| The only meta thing I've seen is Neptunia. I like meta but it can get pretentious easily. It can think too highly of itself just because it's self-aware, as if punching yourself in the nose deliberately doesn't make it any less stupid. If it does reveal something profound about the medium or can use it for fun like Neptunia, I'm for it. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| Meta in anime is a poor man's metanarrative. |
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| You would think after seeing a few anime/manga with that in them, it would seem forced and cheap but surprisingly I still like in any series that uses it. I guess I like it beyond it's novelty. |
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| It's nice to be meta, but it's gotta play around with the tropes a bit to be that. Mentioning cliches and then playing them straight (*cough* Saekano *cough*) is not "ooh, so meta!" |
KaoruMatsuoka said: It's nice to be meta, but it's gotta play around with the tropes a bit to be that. Mentioning cliches and then playing them straight (*cough* Saekano *cough*) is not "ooh, so meta!" Bait, I see a bait. Haha! I'm not gonna even address that. lol. |
Moneta said: While crudely put, I do have to slightly agree. I think a lot of meta-narratives are not particularly interesting, and some of the examples being mentioned here are less meta as much as they are parodies, homages, or satire. Meta exists to some degree, but few anime really pull it off exceptionally.Meta in anime is a poor man's metanarrative. |
CapitalistGod said: It's the only one I could think of off the top of my head, but I know there are more. KaoruMatsuoka said: It's nice to be meta, but it's gotta play around with the tropes a bit to be that. Mentioning cliches and then playing them straight (*cough* Saekano *cough*) is not "ooh, so meta!" Bait, I see a bait. CapitalistGod said: But...but you did.Haha! I'm not gonna even address that. lol. |
masterofgo said: Moneta said: While crudely put, I do have to slightly agree. I think a lot of meta-narratives are not particularly interesting, and some of the examples being mentioned here are less meta as much as they are parodies, homages, or satire. Meta exists to some degree, but few anime really pull it off exceptionally.Meta in anime is a poor man's metanarrative. Doesn't meta just mean self referential? I think Monogatari would qualify then. |
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| ^Yep. The Monogatari franchise is meta, and a good example at that. |
tsudecimo said: Alright, so the Monogatari series then. What makes it self-referential, for instance? I will agree that it is meta, but I am interested in hearing your take on it.masterofgo said: While crudely put, I do have to slightly agree. I think a lot of meta-narratives are not particularly interesting, and some of the examples being mentioned here are less meta as much as they are parodies, homages, or satire. Meta exists to some degree, but few anime really pull it off exceptionally. Doesn't meta just mean self referential? I think Monogatari would qualify then. |
tsudecimo said: masterofgo said: While crudely put, I do have to slightly agree. I think a lot of meta-narratives are not particularly interesting, and some of the examples being mentioned here are less meta as much as they are parodies, homages, or satire. Meta exists to some degree, but few anime really pull it off exceptionally. Doesn't meta just mean self referential? I think Monogatari would qualify then. Would it though? Araragi never really points out the ridiculousness of the situations he's in. They play most everything pretty straight. Especially after Bakemonogatari S1. |
TitanAnteus said: i remember this gem from season 2...Would it though? Araragi never really points out the ridiculousness of the situations he's in. They play most everything pretty straight. Especially after Bakemonogatari S1. |
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masterofgo said: Alright, so the Monogatari series then. What makes it self-referential, for instance? I will agree that it is meta, but I am interested in hearing your take on it. I think it's meta because it points out how self indulgent it is on otaku culture several times from what I remember. Most known example being the infamous tooth brush scene, which the author said in an interview that his intention was to take those fetishes on LN and take them to an extreme, Nisemonogatari at most was self indulgent more than the other parts. There is also the humor. I can't remember exactly but I think I also remember several times where the characters point out that some of what they say is trivial nonsense. |
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TitanAnteus said: Meta is not about pointing out the ridiculousness of his situation. That would be parody and hyperbole, but does not necessarily mean that it is meta.Would it though? Araragi never really points out the ridiculousness of the situations he's in. They play most everything pretty straight. Especially after Bakemonogatari S1. tsudecimo said: I see. In the former case with the toothbrush, I would say based on what the author has said, that might more qualify as satire or parody, because it imitates a particular element of something else (fetishes in various light novels) and portrays them in a comedic or critical way. I think it's meta because it points out how self indulgent it is on otaku culture several times from what I remember. Most known example being the infamous tooth brush scene, which the author said in an interview that his intention was to take those fetishes on LN and take them to an extreme, Nisemonogatari at most was self indulgent more than the other parts. There is also the humor. I can't remember exactly but I think I also remember several times where the characters point out that some of what they say is trivial nonsense. I think what makes Monogatari meta at times is how they are self-referential with the archetypes that they play with. So for instance, there are numerous times where Senjougahara, and many other characters, refers to herself as a tsundere. If I am not mistaken, there were even scenes where Senjougahara was asking Araragi what it meant to be a tsundere and how she should act in according with that particular archetype. Maybe I am misremembering but I am almost certain there was a particular scene similar to that. The reason that scene is meta is because it demonstrates an awareness and references the fact that Senjougahara is of the tsundere persuasion and then the show openly admits the archetype and plays off of it. Normally, in fiction, it is not usual for a work to give up the conceit, but doing so here is what makes Monogatari more "meta" than other anime. |
| For me, I am not particularly impressed by these meta references. They feel incredibly shallow and underwhelming. There is nothing impressive about this because almost anyone can reference fans disliking light novels. This is not a criticism necessarily against Monogatari since I think the show is great, but these are hardly creative and well constructed meta and are almost borderline satirical. In fact, I would argue these types of scenes are more satire than actual meta. Metafiction is basically fiction where an author purposefully chooses to demonstrate a distinct awareness of the artificiality of the work that he is constructing. Good metafiction forces us to grapple with the complexities of storytelling, the artifice that is the story that we are confronting, and helps us to better understand the fictional conventions that authors play around with. To put it in more simple terms, good metafiction is much more sophisticated than simply making a reference to people who treat light novels as second class fiction. Hence why I largely agree with Moneta, though I would not have put it as bluntly. |
masterofgo said: tsudecimo said: I see. In the former case with the toothbrush, I would say based on what the author has said, that might more qualify as satire or parody, because it imitates a particular element of something else (fetishes in various light novels) and portrays them in a comedic or critical way. I think it's meta because it points out how self indulgent it is on otaku culture several times from what I remember. Most known example being the infamous tooth brush scene, which the author said in an interview that his intention was to take those fetishes on LN and take them to an extreme, Nisemonogatari at most was self indulgent more than the other parts. There is also the humor. I can't remember exactly but I think I also remember several times where the characters point out that some of what they say is trivial nonsense. I think what makes Monogatari meta at times is how they are self-referential with the archetypes that they play with. So for instance, there are numerous times where Senjougahara, and many other characters, refers to herself as a tsundere. If I am not mistaken, there were even scenes where Senjougahara was asking Araragi what it meant to be a tsundere and how she should act in according with that particular archetype. Maybe I am misremembering but I am almost certain there was a particular scene similar to that. The reason that scene is meta is because it demonstrates an awareness and references the fact that Senjougahara is of the tsundere persuasion and then the show openly admits the archetype and plays off of it. Normally, in fiction, it is not usual for a work to give up the conceit, but doing so here is what makes Monogatari more "meta" than other anime. I suppose that can be satire. I kinda disagree with the tsundere thing with Senjougahara. Because it seems more than a parody of a tsundere than something self referential because I don't think Senjougahra plays a tsundere straight. A tsundere on it's most basic application is supposed to be switching between hot and cold and being dishonest with her feelings, while Hitagi just seem to do that as a tease mostly and not as something she can't help. She likes to play with Araragi and see how he reacts as opposed to that coming from her mistrusting self formed by her tragedy. Another thing is that she is almost always earnest and straight forward. Stating things how she sees them. Telling Araragi exactly why she loves him and not sugar coating it. At one point she says that if it was another person who saved her she might have fallen for that someone instead of him but she is glad it was him. At least that's how I interpreted the ''tsundere-chan''. What are you talking about applies to Saekano. There the main character calls a female character tsundere IIRC (since they often openly talk about LNs and their tropes) and said female character always plays the archetype straight (often kicking him when he says stuff like that and blushing) |
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| I often hear "mediocre" in a sentence with anything referential(in this case, meta reference). I don't really quite understand that bit. If it's good, it's good... no matter if it's just referential. |
| @Tsudecimo Right, but that is not what I referred to as meta. What is meta is not that Senjougahara parodies the sort of tsundere archetype, but rather that the author distinctly makes it clear to us that he is playing around with archetypes. Archetypes, in some ways I guess, are fictional conventions that authors use, but an author is not "supposed" to let people know within the story that he is utilizing a particular archetype. The author purposefully allows us into his artifice, and allows us to see that he is purposefully grappling and playing around with a particular fictional convention. This is different from other shows that sort of parody or subvert our particular understanding of an archetype. For instance, we would not say that something like Shinji from Evangelion is "meta" just because he stands in stark contrast from other main characters of the mecha genre, because Anno does not purposefully let us know within the fictional realm of the work that he is putting Shinji into the position that he is. It is not like Nisio Isin, who, in works like Katanagatari and Monogatari, creates a much more self-referential atmosphere within the work that tells us that he is studying some sort of convention in fiction. In other words, Monogatari meditates on the nature of these archetypes and lets us know that a significant portion of the story can be understood as trying to grapple with the nature of archetypes and how they function within a story. Perhaps it does apply to Saekano as well, and Saekano goes even further with that meta in some areas, but it, in many ways, does not have much to do with whether someone is playing the particular archetype straight or not. |
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