| I don't have a particular favourite, but something that I dislike and a lot of "Clueless Mysteries" tend to do is that you almost never feel satisfied with the results. |
-Senpai-Jan 31, 2016 8:19 PM
 NasalShark said: I'd love to squeeze your nipples until they look like a purple slushie, Senpai. |
TheServant said: Yup...wait no, I think you're right, sorry for the inconvinience buddy.-CallMeSenpai- said: Wrong board, mate. What do you mean? Which board then? Series Discussion? |
NasalShark said: I'd love to squeeze your nipples until they look like a purple slushie, Senpai. |
| When you say "fair play" are you talking about a mystery that the viewer can solve on their own using the same information that the characters have? |
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| Clues are essential to mysteries. If you don't have clues, then you won't have a good mystery to end with. |
ShigureJan 31, 2016 9:39 PM
| No such thing as a "clueless mystery". If you missed the clues or were mislead by a red herring that's another thing. |
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TheServant said: Or they're trying to convince themselves that the clueless mystery anime are fair play, just like Rokka. Personally, I think Rokka is a fair play mystery. At least in its "how it was done" aspect. As for finding the culprit, the viewers are presented with the clue at the same time as the MC, so it's still fair play. P.S. Also, your vote lacks the "I don't care, I don't try to solve the mystery myself" option. |
TheServant said: There's --> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CluelessMystery And it's not that rare. The thing is, not many people know how to differentiate between the fair play one & the clueless one. Or they're trying to convince themselves that the clueless mystery anime are fair play, just like Rokka. Well, if TvTropes has a page for it, it's obviously fact. Silly me... |
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| Fair Play all the way. I really enjoyed Danganronpa (the game) in this aspect: you have A LOT of clues to try to solve everything yourself. |
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| I don't really understand? can you give example of both from my list? I didn't know rokka |
TheServant said: Tel3 said: Fair Play all the way. I really enjoyed Danganronpa (the game) in this aspect: you have A LOT of clues to try to solve everything yourself. What about the anime? Is it fair play? I haven't watched the anime, but AFAIK it was really cropped. I can't say anything. The game sometimes qualifies as Clueless Mystery though (some cases are made intentionally clueless, and some cases are not entirely solvable before the class trial). |
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TheServant said: HiatusXHiatus said: I don't really understand? can you give example of both from my list? I didn't know rokka Sure. For fair play mystery, it's Hyouka. As for clueless mystery, I am not so sure. I want to say Eden of the East, but it's been too long since the last time I watched it to remember. Sorry. Thanks, then I choose for clueless mistery, I love being confused, I think typical fair play are too common like Conan. |
TheServant said: flannan said: Personally, I think Rokka is a fair play mystery. At least in its "how it was done" aspect. As for finding the culprit, the viewers are presented with the clue at the same time as the MC, so it's still fair play. P.S. Also, your vote lacks the "I don't care, I don't try to solve the mystery myself" option. Like I said, Rokka did give us some clues, but most of them were red herrings. Rokka's pretty clever in the way it deceived some viewers to think it's a fair play. And the "how it's done" aspect was pretty weak as well. So, yeah. Finding the culprit thing was a fair play, but it's too convenient. TheServant said: I do not think that's necessary. You still can appreciate fair play mystery even if you're not trying to solve it. At least that's how I feel. No, when just watching a detective solve the mystery, you may not even know if the mystery was, in fact, a fair play one. |
| One of the things I liked about rokka was that despite the lack of external clues (physical objects and such), there were still lots of clues in the character's behaviour and actions. So that at least contributed to the "finding the 7th mystery". As for all the convient clues, I found them fine since they made sense in that world and the characters' knowledge of certain things also helped with this. I think Rokka is actually both types with the 7th Brave being the fair play and the trapped in fog thing being the clueless type. I can't say which one prefer though cause I never knew there was a difference, but I guess fair play. The only other clueless anime I've watched was The Perfect Insider and that was predictable as hell. |
amk_2397Feb 1, 2016 12:46 AM
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| I only like the ones where it wasn't just an asspull at the end, and actually had foreshadowing so you'd react like "Oooh... That's why they did this and that." at the beginning. |
| I'm not really into the whole puzzle aspect of mysteries. It seems boring to watch someone create a game, play it and having no option to play it myself. I prefer mysteries that rely a lot on characters and odd situations, like Danganronpa. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| Rokka no Yuusha anime (novel volume 1) spoilers. |
| I'm always under assumption that most viewers don't care so much about the mystery than focusing at the characters being so awesome at solving it. If not, we wouldn't have series like that Sakurako bones last season or currently airing Haruchika. |
TheServant said: HiatusXHiatus said: Thanks, then I choose for clueless mistery, I love being confused, I think typical fair play are too common like Conan. Conan is a fair play mystery? I thought it's more of a clueless one. Because as far as I remember, Conan would usually have one key clue that only be revealed when he solves it at the end. Though I might be mistaken since it was very, very long time ago. amk_2397 said: One of the things I liked about rokka was that despite the lack of external clues (physical objects and such), there were still lots of clues in the character's behaviour and actions. So that at least contributed to the "finding the 7th mystery". As for all the convient clues, I found them fine since they made sense in that world and the characters' knowledge of certain things also helped with this. I think Rokka is actually both types with the 7th Brave being the fair play and the trapped in fog thing being the clueless type. I can't say which one prefer though cause I never knew there was a difference, but I guess fair play. The only other clueless anime I've watched was The Perfect Insider and that was predictable as hell. Those were not clues, they were red herrings. It's different. You are fine with convenient clues, but they're nevertheless plot conveniences. The Perfect Insider was clueless mystery? I did not notice that. Which part exactly? Ok yeah with most of the characters they are red herrings. One character's behaviour and actions though are clues to things that happen in the LN later on, which you wouldn't really know about unless you read the LNs so take that information however you see fit. And I'm fine with the plot convenience because it never came off like they just pulled it out of their ass. Like with the tablets, Hans is a smart character so it wouldn't seem odd that he would think to look for these tablets. Same thing with Adlet assuming the activation method was false. In this type of mystery he would have to think about every possible situation. Are these plot conveniences? Yes, but they're not as bad as to plot conveniences in something like Ranpo Kitan. As for the Perfect Insider, I'm probably wrong about that I think. I just remember the mystery being bogged down by discussions of death and stuff so my memory is a bit fuzzy from the show. |
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| Rokka no Yuusha anime (novel volume 1) spoilers. |
| [quote=TheServant message=44521794] She was mentioned in the anime in episode 2. |
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| Fair mystery by far. With a clueless mystery it just feels like the author didn't put any effort into what he wrote and was INCAPABLE of writing a plot intricate enough to allow for the use of clues to be incorporated into the story instead of throwing the answer into your face without any explanation. And just leaving the audience with gaping mouths. There unfortunately isn't a lot of mediums that do Fair mystery well , and that is quite sad because it happens to be one of the genre's I prefer the most. |
PantsuPillowFeb 1, 2016 2:52 AM
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| i prefer Fair play mystery over clueless like conan. |
TheServant said: neolucaman said: i prefer Fair play mystery over clueless like conan. I knew it. Conan is a clueless mystery. Thank you for confirming that. i do not like the case using 'dying message' that playing which word or long sentence cause it need japanese knowledge i mostly unimpressive with that case and when ever conan found final clue normally it intend not to show decisive evidence to reader uhhh. |
| If I had to choose, fair play. However I'm fine with both if they're done well enough. What I don't like is when is when a show pretends to be type B when it's actually type A! (looking at you, Rokka!) I liked Hyouka as a fair play mystery and I also liked Rampo Kitan as a clueless mystery. |
| Well the problem that Rokka had was that it took 4 episodes to start the mystery and 8 episodes to finish it. If it was 2&4 respectively I'm sure it would've had a better reception. |
| Big Order (TV):great anime or greatest anime? |
bobzanny said: Well the problem that Rokka had was that it took 4 episodes to start the mystery and 8 episodes to finish it. If it was 2&4 respectively I'm sure it would've had a better reception. Spoilers for those that haven't watched Rokka no Yuusha below: |
| I tend to dislike clueless mystery. It just feels like the MC pulls the answer out of their ass. If you look at Gosick, some of the mysteries which were presented had their resolutions being foreshadowed; subtle hints were dropped which would get you thinking about what the answer would be. On the other hand, a lot of the time it also felt like Victorique (the MC) had 0 reason for knowing what she knew and simply pulled the answer out of thin air. I found those mystery arcs to be substantially less enjoyable due to this. I also think that 'fair play' mystery is better written, because it shows that the author was clever enough to weave the story in a way where you can be given all the required information but still not be able to figure the answer out right away. If the answer is being foreshadowed and hinted it, it gets you more immersed in what's happening; there's actually a point in getting yourself thinking about what the answer could be because there's a possibility of figuring it out. There's no reason to try and guess the answer in a clueless mystery because all you have to do is sit and wait and the MC will shit out some garbage at the end. |
 It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
| The whole point of a mystery story is that it should be engaging and stimulating to the viewer/reader, so of course I prefer the stories that I can actually attempt to analyze and solve on my own. I think those stories are just better in general, because it actually requires the author to put some effort into cleverly scattering various clues and connections, rather than just making it unsolvable and rely on arbitrary plot devices and the 'secret' clues that only the character(s) know. I don't want to be a passive spectator, just being there for the ride. I want to partake in it. Not establishing clues and leads in the story means that the author can pull off any kind of bullshit, because they're not restricting themselves by the story's facts, so the clueless mystery stories are oftentimes way inferior than the fair ones in terms of writing. The writers need to restrict themselves by establishing facts and state of affairs and play by them. It makes sense that the less talented writers would chose the style that requires the least skill. |
MoogFeb 1, 2016 3:32 PM
DoubleMangekyo said: bobzanny said: Well the problem that Rokka had was that it took 4 episodes to start the mystery and 8 episodes to finish it. If it was 2&4 respectively I'm sure it would've had a better reception. Spoilers for those that haven't watched Rokka no Yuusha below: Anyway I don't particularly like mystery anime because it usually becomes cheesey, too over the top, or just nonsensical. |
| Big Order (TV):great anime or greatest anime? |
TheServant said: TheBrainintheJar said: I'm not really into the whole puzzle aspect of mysteries. It seems boring to watch someone create a game, play it and having no option to play it myself. I prefer mysteries that rely a lot on characters and odd situations, like Danganronpa. I see. That makes sense. Then you like Game of Laplace too? Amiluhur said: I'm always under assumption that most viewers don't care so much about the mystery than focusing at the characters being so awesome at solving it. If not, we wouldn't have series like that Sakurako bones last season or currently airing Haruchika. I see, but wouldn't it be more awesome if we & the protagonist have the same clues yet because of how different the protagonist's train of thought or point of view is he can solve the mystery while we can't? Never heard of Game of Laplace. What is it? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
Ranpo Kitan; it aired in the summer season. It was really bad though. TheServant said: Most of the mystery cases in Gosick definitely clueless. Victorique somehow can solve the cases easily just because she's smart(I guess? It's like a super power to me). Oh definitely. Hence why I said 'some of them weren't but 'a lot of them were'. It was one of my main criticisms of Gosick and the reason I gave it a below-average score. |
It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
TheBrainintheJar said: Never heard of Game of Laplace. What is it? http://myanimelist.net/anime/28619/Ranpo_Kitan__Game_of_Laplace - some kind of mystery show. The first episode was too dark and pointless for my taste, so I dropped it and have no idea if it's a fair play mystery. DoubleMangekyo said: bobzanny said: Well the problem that Rokka had was that it took 4 episodes to start the mystery and 8 episodes to finish it. If it was 2&4 respectively I'm sure it would've had a better reception. Spoilers for those that haven't watched Rokka no Yuusha below: |
TheServant said: I just finished Rokka, while I enjoyed the overall experience, I did not like the mystery aspect. Because it's a clueless mystery type & it's solved in a very convenient way, but some people liked that kind of clueless mystery(even though some of the fans somehow believe it's a fair play mystery). What about you? Do you like clueless mystery in anime? If so, why? I am curious to know why people like it. It was a fairplay mystery with every clue given. What wasn't fairplay was the werewolf game, which is fine. The mystery (IE, how was it done and how do you prove the MC innocent?) completely followed every important detective story rules. Can't be fairer than that. TheServant said: amk_2397 said: She was mentioned in the anime in episode 2. The Sun Saint was mentioned, but not her power. It was. Sun saint was mentioned several times and her power was mentioned once. |
ZefyrisFeb 2, 2016 4:00 AM
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Zefyris said: TheServant said: I just finished Rokka, while I enjoyed the overall experience, I did not like the mystery aspect. Because it's a clueless mystery type & it's solved in a very convenient way, but some people liked that kind of clueless mystery(even though some of the fans somehow believe it's a fair play mystery). What about you? Do you like clueless mystery in anime? If so, why? I am curious to know why people like it. It was a fairplay mystery with every clue given. What wasn't fairplay was the werewolf game, which is fine. The mystery (IE, how was it done and how do you prove the MC innocent?) completely followed every important detective story rules. Can't be fairer than that. Pulling two stone tables out of your ass that singlehandedly provide the solution for the mystery and are not mentioned anywhere in the story beforehand equals providing all the clues now. I guess, you learn something new every day. |
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