TheBrainintheJar said: ...... did you follow any of this conversation?Fintant: What if someone prefers to die than to be saved? |
| Whilst I am aware that there would be certain place guards in place to ensure that the system isn't abused, what happens when for example, you're in a very christian area, where the judge etc. are all very hard hitting Christians as well as the parents, and the daughter is just being a rebellious teenager? Those cases would arise, and this girl who is only rebelling could be sectioned for 30 days. I mean, obviously this is only one situation, but for one I think there will be a lot of situations like it. However, that's too slippery slope for me, and also it's not the main point I want to make. If you have a job, you pay your taxes, you aren't harming anyone or otherwise harassing them, I don't think people should have the right to incarcerate you simply because you hurt yourself. To me that sounds tremendously unfair. People in that situation couldn't even afford 30 days off because they'd lose their job. Even if the intentions are good, I dislike the premise of making it illegal to do something to your own body. You should at least have the rights of your own body. |
| no, it would be a law that would easily be abused |
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| No, the government is already nosy enough. People should at least have the right to do what they like with their own bodies. |
| "It's time for beatin' the homeless to the oldies!" - Hajime Muroto. |
Fintan said: TheBrainintheJar said: ...... did you follow any of this conversation?Fintant: What if someone prefers to die than to be saved? I did, although if I missed something please show me what it is. I see a lot of talking of at least trying to save a suicidal person, but what if the person is uninterested in living? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
Vokren said: I see where you're coming from but don't you think, by that logic, some products and services like tattoos, alcohol and tobacco should also be illegal? I detest alcohol and tobacco. As for tattoos, I'm not much knowledgeable. But, the societal system isn't so deterministic as I've made it sound like. It can go on even with a few errors. That is why I said that Government coercion at that level is unnecessary and counterproductive. You only have to create a 'stigma' around those things to compel people away from them. And that will be enough. TheBraininTheJar said: Society is more powerful than the individual and exists solely to benefit it. If the society doesn't benefit the individual it's pointless. I don't see what's wrong with taking more than you give. And society depends on the individual. You do realize there are a hundred types of individuals in a society but the society, in the end, is just one? If you keep focusing on the individualistic needs, you'll end up creating a clusterfucked society. You need to have a 'norm'. Norms are what keep a society healthy and prospering. Sure, you will have to sacrifice the pleasures of some of the individuals but then again, it's a choice of society versus individual- apply democracy. |
[i]"Yet each man kills the thing he loves, [/i]By each let this be heard, Some do it with a bitter look, Some with a flattering word, The coward does it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword!'' ~Oscar |
ThRippJck said: no, it would be a law that would easily be abused How so? I don't have enough time to read through and reply to what else has been posted on this thread at the moment, but I might edit this post later with a longer reply. |
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geniobastardo said: Vokren said: I see where you're coming from but don't you think, by that logic, some products and services like tattoos, alcohol and tobacco should also be illegal? I detest alcohol and tobacco. As for tattoos, I'm not much knowledgeable. But, the societal system isn't so deterministic as I've made it sound like. It can go on even with a few errors. That is why I said that Government coercion at that level is unnecessary and counterproductive. You only have to create a 'stigma' around those things to compel people away from them. And that will be enough. TheBraininTheJar said: Society is more powerful than the individual and exists solely to benefit it. If the society doesn't benefit the individual it's pointless. I don't see what's wrong with taking more than you give. And society depends on the individual. You do realize there are a hundred types of individuals in a society but the society, in the end, is just one? If you keep focusing on the individualistic needs, you'll end up creating a clusterfucked society. You need to have a 'norm'. Norms are what keep a society healthy and prospering. Sure, you will have to sacrifice the pleasures of some of the individuals but then again, it's a choice of society versus individual- apply democracy. An individual owes nothing to a society that casts him out. A norm should have a good reason to exist. If a lot of people kill themselves because they feel unfit, then the problem is in the society and not in the individuals. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
Infinite said: Whilst I am aware that there would be certain place guards in place to ensure that the system isn't abused, what happens when for example, you're in a very christian area, where the judge etc. are all very hard hitting Christians as well as the parents, and the daughter is just being a rebellious teenager? Those cases would arise, and this girl who is only rebelling could be sectioned for 30 days. I mean, obviously this is only one situation, but for one I think there will be a lot of situations like it. However, that's too slippery slope for me, and also it's not the main point I want to make. If you have a job, you pay your taxes, you aren't harming anyone or otherwise harassing them, I don't think people should have the right to incarcerate you simply because you hurt yourself. To me that sounds tremendously unfair. People in that situation couldn't even afford 30 days off because they'd lose their job. Even if the intentions are good, I dislike the premise of making it illegal to do something to your own body. You should at least have the rights of your own body. I think you're being a bit paranoid about the possibility of the court not following the rules/law. Is it possible? Yeah, of course. It could happen with anything, that applies to basically every law we have. I do get what you mean though, that certain judges may be harder to convince ext. Cutting yourself, which is not really overly dangerous if done in certain ways, is not something that they could section you for. It would have to appear to be serious suicide attempts, and even then they have to prove you're still actively suicidal and a possible harm to yourself and others. Like I said, I got out of it fairly easily(and in a lot of ways I could have used that 30days of treatment as a teen). The fact I had a job, and didn't sound like I was crazy was enough for them to end the hearing within about 10min. I really do get your concerns, but really just try and trust me that it ends up being for the good FAR more then it is ever abused. The losing a job over it is a good point, and that's more of an issue with non suicidal destructive people. Addicts, cutters, ext. The courts DO take that into consideration, they can often recommend the family try and get the person into outpatient treatment(which can't normally be court ordered). I know you don't want people to die, and you think people should have the right to their own bodies. It's never that simple though, especially when mental illness is one of the main factors. I would agree that people should be able to take whatever drugs they want. I would also say direct family members can do what they think is necessary to get family members help if they're unable to help themselves. A big part of why I am arguing my point so passionately is because I've met countless people who are un-measurably thankful that their family members got them help when they were in that hopeless state of mind. It hurts me to think of people killing themselves, when all they might have needed was a little time in treatment and help getting their life situated... People can completely change their lives around! I've also met people who are in the worst of the worst scenarios, where even professionals have trouble giving them hope and reasons to live. Those people are not as common as you may think. I'd also like to point out that with those people it doesn't usually matter what anyone's doing to them at that point, they're GOING to end it. Most of them don't have family members who would even go through the process of sectioning them. So it's not even that much of an issue for them to worry about. My main point, in the shortest way possible, is that these systems do far more good then harm. Nothing ever works perfectly, but you try to do as best you can. |
FintanOct 14, 2015 7:35 AM
TheBrainintheJar said: An individual owes nothing to a society that casts him out. A norm should have a good reason to exist. If a lot of people kill themselves because they feel unfit, then the problem is in the society and not in the individuals. The only thing an 'outcast' individual owes to himself is to learn to be a part of the society or to conform with the norm. Even in the most 'deterministic' societies, majority is not of those who don't learn to fit with the society because survival is the most fundamental instinct and it takes much intellect to betray one's instincts. The unfit people will always be in the minority. Sacrificing the well-being of the whole society for a few individuals never made any sense. I know it sounds harsh, cold or maybe a bit prudish but reality really is that harsh. |
[i]"Yet each man kills the thing he loves, [/i]By each let this be heard, Some do it with a bitter look, Some with a flattering word, The coward does it with a kiss, The brave man with a sword!'' ~Oscar |
geniobastardo said: TheBrainintheJar said: An individual owes nothing to a society that casts him out. A norm should have a good reason to exist. If a lot of people kill themselves because they feel unfit, then the problem is in the society and not in the individuals. The only thing an 'outcast' individual owes to himself is to learn to be a part of the society or to conform with the norm. Even in the most 'deterministic' societies, majority is not of those who don't learn to fit with the society because survival is the most fundamental instinct and it takes much intellect to betray one's instincts. The unfit people will always be in the minority. Sacrificing the well-being of the whole society for a few individuals never made any sense. I know it sounds harsh, cold or maybe a bit prudish but reality really is that harsh. I don't expect a society to change itself to fit the needs of a few. Societies need norms. It's how they become societies in the first place. It's just unfair to force a person to live in a society he doesn't fit in. Such a person deserves euthanasia. If the societies' norms are so strong, then a few suicides won't harm it. If the society is going to be shaken by some suicides, it's time to question that society's norm. |
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| Did anyone ask what would happen if you break these hypothetical laws? |
| "In the end the World really doesn't need a Superman. Just a Brave one" |
Silverstorm said: Did anyone ask what would happen if you break these hypothetical laws? You'll get sectioned for a period of time. Think Fintan mentioned that earlier back? I'm probably taking it out of context though. I'm too lazy-erm I mean, busy, to read through all these new replies |
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Silverstorm said: Did anyone ask what would happen if you break these hypothetical laws? There's not so much laws you can break as there's a system family members can use to force you into treatment for 30 days. By force, I mean they have to actually prove in court your putting yourself and possibly others in danger. |
| if i cant slit my wrists i will slit your throat. you choose |
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