| At Luffy's current power level can he beat Kaido? I seriously have my doubts about that. I mean Luffy was only able to beat Doflamingo because of gear 4th. even then he had to be protected until he got his haki back. Doflamingo is/was only a warlord. sure a high tier warlord, but a warlord non the less. Also Doflamingo was scared shitless of Kaido. Until Luffy is able to use gear 4th for longer periods of time, I just can't see him beating Kaido. Even then I have my doubts about whether or not Luffy can beat him. I think Luffy's haki just isnt strong enough at the moment to take on Yonkou level characters. This is just a theory however I personally think Luffy will lose to Kaido. Shanks will show up to save his ass. Then Luffy will train with shanks, and there will be another time skip. I know we already had a time skip not that long ago. However doesn't seam a little crazy for Luffy to become Pirate King at the age of 19. Even Roger Didn't become the king of the pirates until later in life. His reign was also incredibly short. What do you think? Can Luffy beat Kaido at his current level. Do you think there will be another time skip. Or will luffy continue to get by on pure luck. |
| Of course not. Logically speaking, the SHC vs. Kaido will still lose mid diff. For Luffy to get to the level of fighting an Emperor by himself and winning, a TS is required. BTW, your opinion of DD is a bit off. Just because he's a Warlord doesn't mean he isn't really strong; DD is very strong, he's one level beneath the likes of Admirals. Furthermore, DD wasn't scared of Kaido so much because he would destroy him in an instant, but because he knew if he did Kaido wrong, it would mean an army of 500 Zoans and an Emperor would come to Dressrosa and burn everything he ever worked to get to the ground. As for DD's defeat against Luffy: That victory is not Luffy's own, Law gets as much credit to that defeat as Luffy does. Law was responsible for halving DD's power. Meaning, Luffy on his lonesome is still weaker than DD. Lastly, in regards to your theory, I highly doubt that will occur. Luffy isn't going against Kaido on his own, he's going against him with Law and his crew -- RHP aren't gonna train everyone. EDIT: "Can Luffy beat Kaido at his current level." He has a snowballs chance in Hell. "Do you think there will be another time skip." Yes; after the alliance(s) dethrones their first Emperor. |
ziggy_ZAug 19, 2015 10:07 PM
 |
ziggy_Z said: Of course not. Logically speaking, the SHC vs. Kaido will still lose mid diff. For Luffy to get to the level of fighting an Emperor by himself and winning, a TS is required. BTW, your opinion of DD is a bit off. Just because he's a Warlord doesn't mean he isn't really strong; DD is very strong, he's one level beneath the likes of Admirals. Furthermore, DD wasn't scared of Kaido so much because he would destroy him in an instant, but because he knew if he did Kaido wrong, it would mean an army of 500 Zoans and an Emperor would come to Dressrosa and burn everything he ever worked to get to the ground. As for DD's defeat against Luffy: That victory is not Luffy's own, Law gets as much credit to that defeat as Luffy does. Law was responsible for halving DD's power. Meaning, Luffy on his lonesome is still weaker than DD. Lastly, in regards to your theory, I highly doubt that will occur. Luffy isn't going against Kaido on his own, he's going against him with Law and his crew -- RHP aren't gonna train everyone. TL;DR "Can Luffy beat Kaido at his current level." He has a snowballs chance in Hell. "Do you think there will be another time skip." Yes; after the alliance(s) dethrones their first Emperor. Im not saying Doflamingo isn't strong. Im just saying he isn't yonkou level...thats all. also yes the pirate alliance (not just luffy) is going against Kaido. However I still think they will lose. Kaido is just way to hyped. Unless its revealed that Kaido has some sort of weakness...i just can't see it happening. Thanks for your input though |
LittleRookie said: astrozombie84 said: At Luffy's current power level can he beat Kaido? No. Even if it's Law and Luffy vs Kaido? No. exactly, Law nearly died and luffy still needed protection to finish mingo, no way in hell that they'd be able do defeat kaidou in this stade of the manga, they'll have to keep their alliance and travel further first to power up, then after few months/years only will they be able to defeat that beast (so for the timeskip part, well, i think it's highly likely, or there will be few encounters against new enemies that we see, but time passes way faster than it does now or it ever has) however, there still is that Kidd, Hawkins and Apoo alliance which kaidou encountered, doubt they can beat kaidou either, but still in that situation, kaidou is all alone vs 3 crews so IF kaidou would be beaten in the near future, it'd be thanks to those 3. still, if kaidou has a conquerors haki, they're screwed, if they didn't fight, perhaps they'll go after Shanks together with Kaidou? so many possibilities :s |
 |
| No, well he shouldn't be on his own, unless some BS is involved, BUT if he teams up with a yonko (for some reason), he might? I don't know. |
metsujin said: No, well he shouldn't be on his own, unless some BS is involved, BUT if he teams up with a yonko (for some reason), he might? I don't know. ye, but i dont see him teaming up with BB or Big Mom EVER, so that only leaves Shanks, but there we have Luffy's pride and promice sticking in, so i reaaaaaaaaly doubt that'd happen, but then again, Oda always surprices us ;p |
|
Hiroyuuki said: But I really hope not though, because even if they takes down Kaidou, Luffy wasn't, and will not be the main force in the act, which will frustrate a lot of people, especially fans of Luffy. We want Luffy to be the main actor in taking down a yonkou, not an assisting fighter.metsujin said: No, well he shouldn't be on his own, unless some BS is involved, BUT if he teams up with a yonko (for some reason), he might? I don't know. ye, but i dont see him teaming up with BB or Big Mom EVER, so that only leaves Shanks, but there we have Luffy's pride and promice sticking in, so i reaaaaaaaaly doubt that'd happen, but then again, Oda always surprices us ;p So chances are, they are not taking down Kaidou anytime soon. Actually, I have thought of the possibility of Luffy teaming up with Kaidou, or at least make Kaidou his ally, and his shishou(?). I think it would work out given the personality they both have, especially on Kaidou's side after his introduction. I think that would be interesting. |
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
Hiroyuuki said: however, there still is that Kidd, Hawkins and Apoo alliance which kaidou encountered, doubt they can beat kaidou either, but still in that situation, kaidou is all alone vs 3 crews so IF kaidou would be beaten in the near future, it'd be thanks to those 3. still, if kaidou has a conquerors haki, they're screwed, if they didn't fight, perhaps they'll go after Shanks together with Kaidou? so many possibilities :s Even if it's the entire Kidd Alliance vs. Kaido, Kaido will still win mid diff. |
|
ziggy_Z said: What makes you think they can push it up to mid diff? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)Even if it's the entire Kidd Alliance vs. Kaido, Kaido will still win mid diff. Zoro vs Kaku or Sanji vs Jyabura were examples of mid diff, and I don't see the Kidd alliance doing that much. |
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
ToG25thBaam said: Lol, true true. I guess I should've said "the alliance will at best lose mid diff."ziggy_Z said: What makes you think they can push it up to mid diff? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)Even if it's the entire Kidd Alliance vs. Kaido, Kaido will still win mid diff. Zoro vs Kaku or Sanji vs Jyabura were examples of mid diff, and I don't see the Kidd alliance doing that much. I agree with the latter but Zoro beat Kaku high diff. |
|
ziggy_Z said: To be fair, they were pretty equal pre-bandanna, but after Zoro puts on his bandanna, iirc he overpowered Kaku all the way. Kaku got one-shotted by Asura. Zoro had (again, iirc) counters to every moves of Kaku, except for only one, the rankyaku rain that covered the entire room.Zoro vs Kaku or Sanji vs Jyabura were examples of mid diff, and I don't see the Kidd alliance doing that much. I agree with the latter but Zoro beat Kaku high diff. Zoro only had problem with tekkai, but he proved that he could break it. His victory is similar to Sanji's. |
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
| What we really wanna know is if Mihawk is stronger than Doflamingo. There should be a ranking in the warlords. |
 |
zKitsune said: He definitely is.What we really wanna know is if Mihawk is stronger than Doflamingo. There should be a ranking in the warlords. |
|
| I don't think a time skip is "required" or even necessary in any way. It would be a bunch of bull for them to go through another time skip after being separated for two years and only being back together... less than a week! Time skips don't provide BATTLE EXPERIENCE, they only provide power ups, new moves, and new techniques. Luffy and co have all that, what they require is BATTLE EXPERIENCE. It was already mentioned, Kid and the other supernovas chose to stick around and develop their BATTLE EXPERIENCE and that's now what the rest of the crew needs. They need to battle and learn how the fights in the New World'll play out. They learned haki etc., but they didn't really need it in Paradise. Now, they know it, and they know how to use it, but now it's about applying it most effectively. What the crew needs is BATTLE EXPERIENCE, they do NOT need another time skip. >.> |
DarkAngelz said: I don't think a time skip is "required" or even necessary in any way. It would be a bunch of bull for them to go through another time skip after being separated for two years and only being back together... less than a week! Time skips don't provide BATTLE EXPERIENCE, they only provide power ups, new moves, and new techniques. Luffy and co have all that, what they require is BATTLE EXPERIENCE. It was already mentioned, Kid and the other supernovas chose to stick around and develop their BATTLE EXPERIENCE and that's now what the rest of the crew needs. They need to battle and learn how the fights in the New World'll play out. They learned haki etc., but they didn't really need it in Paradise. Now, they know it, and they know how to use it, but now it's about applying it most effectively. What the crew needs is BATTLE EXPERIENCE, they do NOT need another time skip. >.> Indeed, but the way Kaido is portrayed, Luffy alone stands no chance against him. Law's DF might come in handy here, he could snatch his heart out or something and crush it, I mean his skin seems to be made of steel, so to say, but without a heart... he can't really survive. |
metsujinAug 21, 2015 11:17 AM
DarkAngelz said: I don't think a time skip is "required" or even necessary in any way. It would be a bunch of bull for them to go through another time skip after being separated for two years and only being back together... less than a week! Time skips don't provide BATTLE EXPERIENCE, they only provide power ups, new moves, and new techniques. Luffy and co have all that, what they require is BATTLE EXPERIENCE. It was already mentioned, Kid and the other supernovas chose to stick around and develop their BATTLE EXPERIENCE and that's now what the rest of the crew needs. They need to battle and learn how the fights in the New World'll play out. They learned haki etc., but they didn't really need it in Paradise. Now, they know it, and they know how to use it, but now it's about applying it most effectively. What the crew needs is BATTLE EXPERIENCE, they do NOT need another time skip. >.> ye true, kinda have to agree there, but by timeskip i don't only understand a timeskip where they get seperated again and stuff, more like, we don't see most of the crew's skirmishes with other crews they meet at sea or smth like they go to an inhabited island and train for their Haki and stuff for few months, share their learning methods and so on. So basically smth like '3 months later' mentioning and stuff could come in handy. if Oda doesnt do anything that takes time (in the storyline), there is no way in hell that Luffy'll be able to beat any younko in the next coming 6 years or so IRL. |
|
| I don't think he is strong enough as of right now. Even Doflamingo was jumping through hurdles to keep Kaido off his back, Kaido is on a completely different level. I'm excited to see how everything plays out though. |
| Luffy's always become progressively stronger, he will once again become progressively stronger to the point where-in due time, he may be able to defeat Kaido. Can he now? No. Does there 'need' to be a timeskip(of significant portion)? No. Oda can progressively make him stronger in the following realtime years, as he always does, Luffy could probably not defeat Lucci when he defeated Arlong. Yet a timeskip was not necessary. |
| ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ |
| I think what make Emperor so feared throughout the One Piece world was the Army they had. Just like Law said, a couple of pirate crew won't even able to made them face the boss. Roger, had 2 people with Conqueror Haki in his crew, it's just show how tremendous the power of the army he possessed. Now, what's Luffy need the most right now is another Ally, and if possible, another Conqueror Haki user. About the chance of Luffy win against kaido? fat chance. His only chance is to do "Awakening" and maybe he somehow can defeat Kaido. |
 |
| I would sure like to see another CH user join Straw Hats. |
DarkAngelz said: A TS is necessary because it is not logical for Luffy to surpass Roger when he isn't even 20 years old. Roger was globally recognized as the PK in his second last year of living and final year of piracy; Roger was in his mid forties when he conquered the world. Luffy attaining that power when he is a ~decade away from his prime is nothing but poor writing.I don't think a time skip is "required" or even necessary in any way. It would be a bunch of bull for them to go through another time skip after being separated for two years and only being back together... less than a week! BTW, who says the TS will again happen by them separating? That too is poor writing; when if it happens it will obviously be the crew secluding themselves on island training together -- the M3 will train together; the M3 will will also help develop the Haki of the rest of them (Zoro will prolly help Franky, Brook & Robin practise CoA while Sanji prolly helps the Weak Trio unlock CoO). Furthermore, when if the TS does occur it will most likely be after one of the Emperors fall to an alliance, which will be a couple months in-verse. Time skips don't provide BATTLE EXPERIENCE, they only provide power ups, new moves, and new techniques. Luffy and co have all that, what they require is BATTLE EXPERIENCE. ...You honestly got it completely reversed: the SHC do NOT have power and the do HAVE battle experience; they had achieved a years worth of battle experience prior to the first TS and they only attained a certain amount of power required for SURVIVING the NW, they lack the power of progressing further in it. It was already mentioned, Kid and the other supernovas chose to stick around and develop their BATTLE EXPERIENCE and that's now what the rest of the crew needs. They need to battle and learn how the fights in the New World'll play out. They learned haki etc., but they didn't really need it in Paradise. Now, they know it, and they know how to use it, but now it's about applying it most effectively. Kid and the other SNe did not dive into the NW to develop their battle experience, where did you read this? They realised that then was the best time to go there because it was in a state of disarray due to the death of an Emperor. It was the perfect time to go there and seek territory. There was a whole page of fodder remarking that this is the perfect time to go to the NW, hence why there were 20,000 pirates in FI because they took the opportunity but were too weak. Moreover, the other main reason Kid went to the NW immediately after is because he was pissed of that Luffy's stock skyrocketed way above his because he participated in the 'War of the Best'. So in his pride of wanting to be the best SN, he decided the best way for the papers to recognise him more than his peer is by fucking shit up in the NW.Oh and you do know that only four of the Straw Hats know Haki and only three of them can use it at will, right? The rest need to unlock theirs and evidently, that takes a fuckload of time if you don't have either A)great growth-rate, or B)circumstances that miraculously awaken a specific Color -- the M3 have the former and Ussop had the latter. What the crew needs is BATTLE EXPERIENCE, they do NOT need another time skip. >.> Once again, you got the two priorities completely reversed.EDIT: People need to wrap their heads around the concept of Haki. This is the power Luffy needs to master, not his DF, not awakening it (sure, that'd be a big plus but not a paramount necessity). People need to remember BB cancels out DF power. Haki is the key for that not happening, and Haki is not something that one masters in the span of a couple months, it takes a long, long time. Rayleigh explicitly remarked how Luffy's Haki training was extraordinary because achieving the basics of Haki in 18 months is normally impossible (but Luffy did it because he had fast growth-rate) -- this is Rayleigh who said this, the Right Hand of the strongest man who may have ever existed. Luffy will not master is Haki to top tier level in a matter of months, this will take many years. Lastly, people need to realise that Luffy is not even 20 years old, he is so many years away from his prime it's not funny. So how in the bluest of all Hell is he gonna fight and defeat the likes of Akainu & BB; surpass the likes of Shanks & Dragon, who are currently in their prime and are much, much older than Luffy? How the fuck is an alcoholic who is just old enough to drink beer in America, going to be able to become the strongest swordsman in the world, when the man who olds that title -- the people who contend for that title -- are in their prime and a decade+ older? The probability of their being a TS is as high as the chances of Shanks dying. That is the reality Oda has set. |
ziggy_ZAug 22, 2015 1:52 AM
|
| @ Ziggy finally someone who can explain my thoughts correctly! ;p (i'm bad at explaining lol) Anyway, there is another thing added to the 3 who know how to use haki, they do, however, as Rayleigh said, even Luffy didn't master haki yet, he came somewhat used to USING it, then how do ppl expect Luffy to miraculously master it in a few months from now if he only got used to it in 2 years? and honestly, although i rly am a fan of Zoro, it's not like me to overpower characters and i know that he is under Luffy's level atm (as he somewhat stated himself when fighting Pika, even though we haven't seen his full strength yet) so i'd doubt he or Sanji mastered it already. there is just no way without a decent way to let time pass (i call that a timeskip like i stated above here somewhere, ppl here can call it whatever they want) edit: sorry, seems like i missed your edit about mastering lol, fun to see how someone else is thinking the exact same as me though XD |
|
| As ziggy said Luffy becoming pirate king at the age of 20 would be stupid, even Naruto (just a example), was older when he became hokage, not some kid. |
| Poor little people still thinking that Luffy will be Pirate King. Luffy will definitely conquer the Grand Line but he will never gain the title of Pirate King, it will be Buggy who gonna hold that title and I'm not even joking. First reason is because Buggy is the last person that I would put in the next One Piece character to die list. Second, He is Oda favorite character after all, had enough potential, knowledge and experience and he's been around grand line for quite a while. Third, I could see death flag on all of the Supernovas member. the chance that they will survive until the end is slim. And their title is the death flag in itself. A supernova is a stellar explosion that briefly outshines an entire galaxy, radiating as much energy as the Sun or any ordinary star is expected to emit over its entire life span, before fading from view over several weeks or months. |
[i][b]I'am the Mayor of under development residential called MAL Backstreet Residential. [/i][/b]Now what are you waiting for?! Come join us at MAL Backstreet Residential!! |
BangToyib said: Poor little people still thinking that Luffy will be Pirate King. Luffy will definitely conquer the Grand Line but he will never gain the title of Pirate King, it will be Buggy who gonna hold that title and I'm not even joking. First reason is because Buggy is the last person that I would put in the next One Piece character to die list. Second, He is Oda favorite character after all, had enough potential, knowledge and experience and he's been around grand line for quite a while. Third, I could see death flag on all of the Supernovas member. the chance that they will survive until the end is slim. And their title is the death flag in itself. A supernova is a stellar explosion that briefly outshines an entire galaxy, radiating as much energy as the Sun or any ordinary star is expected to emit over its entire life span, before fading from view over several weeks or months. while i agree that buggy is one of the characters that is nearly immortal, there is 1 thing you should consider though.. He is extremely weak and Law counters him. He just has to use Shambles with a split piece of his body, put it in a bottle filled with seawater, done. We already saw that even a single piece of Buggy being exposed to seawater already makes him lose his energy. Law is a smart guy, i see him being able to do that. Don't wanna break you or anything, but being nearly immortal won't get you the title Pirate King either.. else Kaidou would have gotten it already i'm sure. have to admit though that Law's DF allows him to fking overpower most characters though.. |
|
Hiroyuuki said: BangToyib said: Poor little people still thinking that Luffy will be Pirate King. Luffy will definitely conquer the Grand Line but he will never gain the title of Pirate King, it will be Buggy who gonna hold that title and I'm not even joking. First reason is because Buggy is the last person that I would put in the next One Piece character to die list. Second, He is Oda favorite character after all, had enough potential, knowledge and experience and he's been around grand line for quite a while. Third, I could see death flag on all of the Supernovas member. the chance that they will survive until the end is slim. And their title is the death flag in itself. A supernova is a stellar explosion that briefly outshines an entire galaxy, radiating as much energy as the Sun or any ordinary star is expected to emit over its entire life span, before fading from view over several weeks or months. while i agree that buggy is one of the characters that is nearly immortal, there is 1 thing you should consider though.. He is extremely weak and Law counters him. He just has to use Shambles with a split piece of his body, put it in a bottle filled with seawater, done. We already saw that even a single piece of Buggy being exposed to seawater already makes him lose his energy. Law is a smart guy, i see him being able to do that. Don't wanna break you or anything, but being nearly immortal won't get you the title Pirate King either.. else Kaidou would have gotten it already i'm sure. have to admit though that Law's DF allows him to fking overpower most characters though.. he wouldnt even have to do that. literally just remove his heart and then stab it. buggy is far from immortal. he is good against swordsmen and thats it. he is still weak against elemental stuff. like fire, sand, poison, ice, ect, ect or someone with haki can just clobber the hell out of him. hell luffy beat him back when he was just a noob. so obviously he isnt very tough. I did always think it would be cool if buggy got haki. but he still wouldnt be shit in the new world. besides i kinda doubt that will happen, because more or less he is used only for comedy nowadays. ofc you never know with Oda |
astrozombie84Aug 22, 2015 7:41 AM
| I think that even if there is a Gear 5 that is totally over powered he wont be able to beat Kaido at all at the moment |
| Come on he barely beat don flamingo with a shitload of help from Law , probably weakened him a lot , and a bunch of other people had to protect him for a long time (well for a death match it was a long time) before he got his haki back, Kaido probably would have simply ignore everyone with their weapons and attacks bouncing off (based on his introduction story) of him kill luffy while he's useless. xD Yeah a training arc and another time skip where shanks would train him would be awesome. I'd personally want the next time skip to be the last one and be a bit longer too, so its more believable that possibly at least Luffy may be pirate king when hes a full grown man. I say 5 - 7 years although most likely ODA wont do a timeskip that lasts that long. I think the more interesting question is how either kid hawkins or apoo will survive that encounter with kaido! I doubt Oda will kill off 3 really important supernovas in one go I would say at least 1 of them has to survive to tell the story of what happened. |
midnightbladeAug 22, 2015 9:16 AM
 |
| [quote=ziggy_Z] DarkAngelz said: A TS is necessary because it is not logical for Luffy to surpass Roger when he isn't even 20 years old. Roger was globally recognized as the PK in his second last year of living and final year of piracy; Roger was in his mid forties when he conquered the world. Luffy attaining that power when he is a ~decade away from his prime is nothing but poor writing.I don't think a time skip is "required" or even necessary in any way. It would be a bunch of bull for them to go through another time skip after being separated for two years and only being back together... less than a week! It looks to me like you know little of Roger's story. Roger sailed the seas as a normal pirate for many years. It was never said that Roger wasn't insanely strong to begin with, or that he was necessarily in his prime when he became pirate king. If anything, he was NOT in his prime when he became PK because he was SICK. Roger sailed the seas normally for many years, and when he found out he had around a year to live, he decided to go on one last adventure. During this last voyage, he visited Skypiea, etc., and with the intent to leave a mark. He conquered the Grand Line in less than a year, while sick. He also had the intent to do something amazing at that point in his life. It is possible to get stronger while sick, whilst channeling pain and determination into your fists, so it is possible for Roger to have been at his strongest even while sick, but nowhere is there any indication that Roger wasn't strong enough to conquer the Grand Line at a younger age. It's just that he CHOSE to do it when he had little time left. Thus, I don't find your argument that Luffy becoming PK at 20 while Roger became so at a much older age relevant. Also, where did I say Luffy would become PK at 20? All I said was that there shouldn't be a time skip anytime soon. He should be able to defeat Kaidoh, be it alone or with help, without any timeskip. Also, just because the first part of the series took place during less than a year of time, doesn't mean the second part of the series will too. Right now everything's moving very quickly, but Luffy can get really injured later and have to take a month long break, or there COULD be another time skip, or some conflict holding them up longer. I just don't feel that a timeskip now or anytime soon is appropriate in any way. ziggy_Z said: BTW, who says the TS will again happen by them separating? That too is poor writing; when if it happens it will obviously be the crew secluding themselves on island training together -- the M3 will train together; the M3 will will also help develop the Haki of the rest of them (Zoro will prolly help Franky, Brook & Robin practise CoA while Sanji prolly helps the Weak Trio unlock CoO). Furthermore, when if the TS does occur it will most likely be after one of the Emperors fall to an alliance, which will be a couple months in-verse. I never said that they would be separated if there were to be another timeskip. Maybe what I wrote was misunderstood, so I'll apologize there for miscommunication. What I meant was that the crew just spent two years apart and they need time to have fun together, to catch up, to live with eachother and be happy, be it whilst in the middle of conflict or otherwise. Arguably, they can still catch up etc., while training together if they choose to, but that feel's like a completely different ball park. While training, you have to be almost single minded in reaching your goal. Friends distract unless theirs imminent danger. But to be fair, I hadn't thought of them training together until you mentioned it. It's plausible, but I still find it unwarranted. ziggy_Z said: I don't have it reversed at all. What do you think they did during the timsekip? Sit around a campfire and sing Kumbaya? No. They were training their power levels and techniques in quasi-battles. Now they need to apply what they've learned in real battle. Kid and company didn't necessarily choose to go to the New World to gather battle experience, but their decision did have an underlying understanding that battle experience would suit them better than training their strength....You honestly got it completely reversed: the SHC do NOT have power and the do HAVE battle experience; they had achieved a years worth of battle experience prior to the first TS and they only attained a certain amount of power required for SURVIVING the NW, they lack the power of progressing further in it. Kid and the other SNe did not dive into the NW to develop their battle experience, where did you read this? They realised that then was the best time to go there because it was in a state of disarray due to the death of an Emperor. It was the perfect time to go there and seek territory. There was a whole page of fodder remarking that this is the perfect time to go to the NW, hence why there were 20,000 pirates in FI because they took the opportunity but were too weak. Moreover, the other main reason Kid went to the NW immediately after is because he was pissed of that Luffy's stock skyrocketed way above his because he participated in the 'War of the Best'. So in his pride of wanting to be the best SN, he decided the best way for the papers to recognise him more than his peer is by fucking shit up in the NW. Oh and you do know that only four of the Straw Hats know Haki and only three of them can use it at will, right? The rest need to unlock theirs and evidently, that takes a fuckload of time if you don't have either A)great growth-rate, or B)circumstances that miraculously awaken a specific Color -- the M3 have the former and Ussop had the latter. Once again, you got the two priorities completely reversed. ziggy_Z said: EDIT: People need to wrap their heads around the concept of Haki. This is the power Luffy needs to master, not his DF, not awakening it (sure, that'd be a big plus but not a paramount necessity). People need to remember BB cancels out DF power. Haki is the key for that not happening, and Haki is not something that one masters in the span of a couple months, it takes a long, long time. Rayleigh explicitly remarked how Luffy's Haki training was extraordinary because achieving the basics of Haki in 18 months is normally impossible (but Luffy did it because he had fast growth-rate) -- this is Rayleigh who said this, the Right Hand of the strongest man who may have ever existed. Luffy will not master is Haki to top tier level in a matter of months, this will take many years. Lastly, people need to realise that Luffy is not even 20 years old, he is so many years away from his prime it's not funny. So how in the bluest of all Hell is he gonna fight and defeat the likes of Akainu & BB; surpass the likes of Shanks & Dragon, who are currently in their prime and are much, much older than Luffy? How the fuck is an alcoholic who is just old enough to drink beer in America, going to be able to become the strongest swordsman in the world, when the man who olds that title -- the people who contend for that title -- are in their prime and a decade+ older? The probability of their being a TS is as high as the chances of Shanks dying. That is the reality Oda has set. I have to go so I'll say this quickly. I never said that all the Straw Hats had haki. I said that the crew now has haki. If that sounded like EVERYONE has it instead of a generalization that a good number of them has haki, then my bad. Also, in terms of training and mastering haki. I think Rayleigh said it himself, you can't TRAIN haki, you can only strengthen it with your will. How can Luffy's will strength his haki further while alone in a jungle without much fear for survival? His training on the island was to get the basics down, to strengthen and master haki he has to leave and face conflict and battle. His willpower and determination has to be tested for it to grow and/or strengthen. DId I ever say that the crew has mastered haki? no. I said they HAVE it, and maybe I didn't make myself clear then so I will now. The crew has haki, and they didn't need it much in paradise. They know it's important but they aren't completely aware of its benefit. They got down the basics, and now that it's more necessary, they will strengthen it in battle and learn how important it is in its utility and its application. Now, while in the New World, it can improve. It won't be able to do so as rapidly or perhaps at all, while in captivity and semi-comfort in a training island. Okay so how old is Captain Axe-hand Morgan? Buggy? Kuro? Arlong? Crocodile? Enel? Bellamy? Lucci and Spandam? Moria? What about this? How old is FUJITORA, and how old is SABO? What about Al Capone and Kid? Age is practically an illusion! It's important, not gonna completely disagree with you, but your argument is irrelevant here. In the world of devil fruits and haki, age can be but a number. It's all about willpower, inner talent, devil fruit/haki/physical strength and the level of capableness in those regards. Also there's something you're completely glossing over. I don't think you quite understand why the Yonkou and Warlords hadn't been displaced before Luffy. These pirates have very intimidating reputations and no one has the gall to fight. For the Yonkou, didn't you hear? You either ally with them or go against them. Most people ally themselves. There's not a lot of people that base their journey on rebelling against any force nearby. Not a lot of people choose to go against a yonkou because of the reputation and fear, rather than lack of strength to do so. Luffy may not currently be strong enough to take them, but if you think a timeskip will solve that problem then reality will show you otherwise. At the end of the day, Luffy's insane growth happened in the few months he was out at sea. Aokiji confirmed that his growth and actions are noteworthy and scary. It took Luffy 10 years to learn how to do a jet gatling and get the strength to set out at sea. In less than one year, he's grown probably more than 10 times over. That proves that Luffy as a character/person learns and improves more from battle and risking his life, than by training on an island. Some people might benefit more from training than from conflict, I'll concede as much, but such is not the case for Luffy. Luffy will get stronger through battle. Maybe he's not yet ready to take on a yonkou one on one, but a timeskip won't help with that. Not at all. The only thing that could help Luffy is more harsh battles that force him to stretch (hehe punny) his limits. I recommend you stop comparing Luffy with Roger. Roger MIGHT have been able to become pirate king earlier, it's not confirmed that he didn't have the strength while young. It's just that Roger lacked the ambition to do so. Also, Roger managed to conquer the entire Grand Line, at whatever old age he was at, in less than a year. Luffy is not doing it at the same rate. Luffy is gonna take double that time, quadruple if you count his brake. That proves that Roger was overall stronger than Luffy (or just that the combatants weren't as troublesome?). This proves that Luffy's youth IS delaying the conquering of the Grand Line. It proves that Luffy's youth is affecting the journey. BUT, don't forget that at such at a young age, the body is still developing and thus it's the best time to get stronger. Anyway, wasn't able to write everything but gotta go to the mall. See ya. |
| I'm sorry I'm interfering, but didn't Roger said to Rayleigh when they meet "This meeting must be fate Rayleigh... What do you say to turning the world upside down with me?!!", he was relatively young in that flashback, plus I don't think someone who lacked 'ambition' would say that. Luffy and Roger are also similar, for one Luffy wears the straw hat that Roger wore, they both have the same 'style' when they chose a nakama, if I'm not mistaking both Roger and Luffy can hear the 'voices' of Sea Kings.... Now what baffles me is how old is he, because when Brook was alive, didn't he mentioned that Roger was a rookie in his time... and Brook is been un dead for what 50 years or something? Anyway Luffy alone can't defeat Kaido, he couldn't defeat Doffy alone. |
Isterio said: If we consider that Luffy is gonna not only reach Rogers goal but even surpass him. He should conquer the seas within the next 1-2 years, considering how great Luffys accomplishment has to be in order to go toe to toe with Roger. that statement will get burned by me sorry. they already spent 3 years on the grand line, you can't just forget about the timeskip. that'd be like: 'hey! im strong enough for the next island, but then we'll leave for 2 years cuz we won't make it, then come back and pretend those 2 years didn't pass!' timebased, Luffy doesnt intent to surpass him, nor was he able to. you could also just admit that Roger was a pirate for way longer than 3 years though, but that would make even more of your claims invalid, your choice. |
|
| Yes he was executed 24 years ago, he got his illness 4 years prior to that, Crocus joined the crew for 3 years. Rayleigh is somewhere in his late 50' probably, so he was in his late 20' possibly 30' when he was with Roger, and Roger was about the same. Because Shanks was a teenager when he was on Roger's crew, around 13-15. Roger 'conquered' the Grande Line in those years when he was sick. Man I hate when authors don't put specific years on stuff like this. |
| Imma go ahead and say helllll no. He struggled a lot with Doffy, and Kaido is someone who can even make Doffy shit his pants. But associative discussion aside considering Kaido is a yonko/the strongest creature/could hold his own against whitebeard (i think its hinted), i'd repeat my earlier hellll no. |
 |
| No and some interesting stuff on the whole time skip thing. Never really thought about another time skip. I just hope that whole shanks trains luffy bullshit doesnt happen. That's some pussy shit lol I really hope it doesn't go down that path. |
| you sound poor |
| Yeah, Shanks trains Luffy is the last thing that I would expect Oda to do, why? because Shanks is a fucking swordsman, and not to mention Shanks also got things to take care on his own like his territory in New World as an Emperor and such. If someone would ever train Luffy about mastering Haki even more, the person that would do that is none other than his lovely retired grandpa, Monkey D. Garp. |
|
Isterio said: so come at me bro. ok if you insist i'll break your statement completely then.. so, you said Brook who said that about Roger was a troll from Oda, huh? well let me ask you this: how in the world did Brook even know about Roger, when he was supposed to be stuck on a broken ship for 50 years? that's right, cuz roger DID already sail at the seas (not necessarily the grand line indeed) and was already somewhat known (a rookie) BEFORE those 50 years. I'll tell you how it went: Roger, at a young age (just like Luffy atm), set sail and searched for a crew for some adventures (as we saw when he recruited rayleigh, it doesn't tell us where he sailed, that's where i agree, however, he did already sail the seas). He did, before he got sick. However, he turned ill, WHEN HE WAS ALREADY KNOWN (not as pirate king but a known pirate who was already stronger than 3 whole country armies all by himself, let alone if we counted his crew too). This means he already became a rival of Whitebeard and Shikki somewhere between the time he set sail and the time he got ill. So, after having received the truth about his illness, he decided to go on his last adventure (the 3 years you speak of) 29 years before the start of the main series (26+1 year sailing and 2 year timeskip). however, unlike Luffy, he already had tremendous battle experience from his adventures before he got ill and went on his last journey, conquering the grand line. During the time he went for his last journey, he saw Skypea, Water Seven, faught the Edd War and so on. then, ONLY DURING HIS LAST YEAR he got known as the Pirate King. So what i mean is, Roger indeed conquered the grand line in just 3 years, but that was thanks to his previous experiences and stuff like that, so basically, you can't even compare the SH pirates with the Roger pirates, as the Roger pirates were already one of the best and most known veterans even before he set sail on the grand line (and for all we know, he could even have set sail already at the grand line before and have returned to the blue seas and the other way around, his purpose wasn't to conquer the grand line before he got ill). Why can't we compare the 2? because luffy still had to pretty much form a crew at the start of the grand line, and most importantly: HE WAS WEAK. so again, how do you expect Luffy to be able to conquer the grand line in less than 3 years? how can he get the strength of a man, who already sailed the seas and was experienced for 25 long years before his last journey, in less than 3 years? O cmon, this ain't DBZ you're talking 'bout. Basically, without those 25 years, even Roger would have failed the grand line, he NEEDED those experiences for his last voyage. So did Roger really conquer it in 3 years? i'll answer it for you: NO WAY IN HELL. He already had his crew and his strength (weakened btw tnx to his illness, but still capable of crushing Shikki's army in the Edd War). Did he get all his strength in only 3 years? again, NO. We don't know how long it actually took Roger to get to his strongest years, it could be in 5 years, however, it could be 25 years as well. So let's make a raw guess that he'd need between 5-10 years for gaining that much strength, that'd still make 8-13 years if he were to sail like luffy. So now for Luffy: he has 1 year spent on sea (not counting east blue, don't remember how long he was there but surely less than a year), 2 years of training, making it 3 years in total. that's still ALOT less than Roger, even if you take my low estimate. You just CAN'T compare the 2 crews based on time for conquering the grand line, as they had a totally different start (unexperienced Luffy without anything for making you a pirate vs. Veteran Roger, with a basically full crew, exept for Crocos and few others perhaps, with everything he already needed to start the grand line and already a known name) so, you see my point as to why Luffy can't possibly surpass Roger based on time? (he didn't even intend to in the 1st place, he just wants to be the damn pirate king) |
|
| hah, ye, the typical 'i don't bother to read the rest cuz i know i just failed but can't admit my wrongs' reaction.. o god, is it always like this on the forums when you try to correct ppl.. anyway, i'll show you this 1 thing i'm sure you'll remember once i post it so that MAYBE you can finally just admit you're wrong, go read the whole page of this, also the reference pages, then maybe you'll finally see it yourself that you're wrong: http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Gol_D._Roger or are you gonna say that Rayleigh also MAYBE missremembered the age Roger had when they met.. (it's not mentioned anywhere btw, but you can clearly see that roger was in his early 20's at that time and there was WAY more time between his 'Era' pic and that one.. anyway, i'll drop trying to get it into your brains, believe what you want if you still can't admit that you were wrong.. |
HiroyuukiAug 23, 2015 1:16 PM
|
Hiroyuuki said: It could have been anywhere between a little over a year and three years to take over the grand line. According to the wikia's time line, he set sail 27 years ago and completed his journey 25 years ago. So, if he started in December and finished in January, he would indeed have taken slightly over a year. With the opposite months, it would take at most a little less than 3 years. So, just wanted to clear that up for myself and everyone else.Isterio said: so come at me bro. So what i mean is, Roger indeed conquered the grand line in just 3 years, but that was thanks to his previous experiences and stuff like that, so basically, you can't even compare the SH pirates with the Roger pirates, as the Roger pirates were already one of the best and most known veterans even before he set sail on the grand line (and for all we know, he could even have set sail already at the grand line before and have returned to the blue seas and the other way around, his purpose wasn't to conquer the grand line before he got ill). Also, I already said that Roger didn't have the ambition to conquer the grand line initially. Who said he was with a single mind sailing for the final island? Roger decided to to that only for the final voyage. So, he might not have been at his prime at that point in time. He could have been at his prime, or at his strongest, at a much earlier age. He just chose to conquer the grand line at a later date. In addition, arguably, it was harder for Roger because the marines were at his tail delaying him throughout all his journey. This isn't entirely confirmed, but logically it would make sense that Roger had more difficulty with the marines at an earlier point in his journey. Garp was Roger's rival and Roger was being chased through most of the trek. He was very wanted and everyone could have been after him from the getgo. Luffy and company weren't being chased by top marines until much later and not because of their location. They simply got more attention by the marines because of their reputation. Thus, arguably, the marines and all of Roger's rivals could have delayed Roger throughout his journey. It's a different ball park when you start your journey with enemies and rivals. This is just speculation that I feel counters your "Roger was experienced and thus should have progressed faster" argument. Why can't we compare the 2? because luffy still had to pretty much form a crew at the start of the grand line, and most importantly: HE WAS WEAK. so again, how do you expect Luffy to be able to conquer the grand line in less than 3 years? how can he get the strength of a man, who already sailed the seas and was experienced for 25 long years before his last journey, in less than 3 years? O cmon, this ain't DBZ you're talking 'bout. Basically, without those 25 years, even Roger would have failed the grand line, he NEEDED those experiences for his last voyage. So did Roger really conquer it in 3 years? i'll answer it for you: NO WAY IN HELL. He already had his crew and his strength (weakened btw tnx to his illness, but still capable of crushing Shikki's army in the Edd War). Did he get all his strength in only 3 years? again, NO. We don't know how long it actually took Roger to get to his strongest years, it could be in 5 years, however, it could be 25 years as well. So let's make a raw guess that he'd need between 5-10 years for gaining that much strength, that'd still make 8-13 years if he were to sail like luffy. No one knows when Roger was at his prime. You said it yourself, and you're trying to bullshit it. You can't just randomally say that because it could have taken anywhere between 5 and 25 years it's safe to suffice 10. Like NO. That's not how it works. Did you know that for human beings, in real life, MOST humans are at peak athletic state in their 20s? It's slightly different for each person but generally that's when a person is at their strongest. So yes, Roger could have been at his prime in his 30s technically, but it's less likely. So now for Luffy: he has 1 year spent on sea (not counting east blue, don't remember how long he was there but surely less than a year), 2 years of training, making it 3 years in total. that's still ALOT less than Roger, even if you take my low estimate. You keep repeating that Luffy has less time, and thus can't be anywhere close to Roger in strength b/c TIME. Well, like I said earlier, what about SABO? He's insanely strong, admiral tier, and he's in his 20s. There's also a curve because of devil fruit abilities. Luffy was a rubber man since young so arguably he was TRAINING for 10 years before he left sea. He was a fighter to begin with, dumped in forests by himself by his grandfather. Also, he was a rubber guy since young so he's so accustomed to rubber, unlike if he just got it. Also, the devil fruit itself gives him an upper hand in terms of strength growth. He would need to train much less to get the same impact on his punch than someone human like Zoro. Actually, that's perfect! Zoro has to train 24/7 to get the muscle to strengthen his attacks whlie Luffy because of his rubber just has to stretch a little father or find another technique to amplify it. Thus it would indeed take Luffy less time to get as strong as Roger than a normal human, even Roger himself if they were of the same age. To sum up, age means shit so please stop. Luffy is Luffy and has traits that enable superior growth that's even greater than that of Roger. And seeing how we don't know when Roger was at his prime, it's safe to say that Luffy CAN reach top peak in his early 20s, maybe even 20 himself. so, you see my point as to why Luffy can't possibly surpass Roger based on time? (he didn't even intend to in the 1st place, he just wants to be the damn pirate king) :D |
Hiroyuuki said: hah, ye, the typical 'i don't bother to read the rest cuz i know i just failed but can't admit my wrongs' reaction.. o god, is it always like this on the forums when you try to correct ppl.. anyway, i'll show you this 1 thing i'm sure you'll remember once i post it so that MAYBE you can finally just admit you're wrong, go read the whole page of this, also the reference pages, then maybe you'll finally see it yourself that you're wrong: http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Gol_D._Roger or are you gonna say that Rayleigh also MAYBE missremembered the age Roger had when they met.. (it's not mentioned anywhere btw, but you can clearly see that roger was in his early 20's at that time and there was WAY more time between his 'Era' pic and that one.. anyway, i'll drop trying to get it into your brains, believe what you want if you still can't admit that you were wrong.. If Roger was older than 20 when he set sail then that automatically lowers the growth rate in strength. It's easier to gain muscle while working out in your teens and early early 20s, than it is in your later 20s and 30s etc. So, if Roger left in his 20s, it would mean that he would naturally get stronger at a lesser rate than another person who's younger. That doesn't even take into account the fact that Luffy's devil fruit heightens the growth rate even more. So, these are slightly arbitrary numbers, but if Roger gained 10 bars of strength between the age of 22 and 23, Luffy would gain 50 bars of strength between the age of 19 and 20. Again, the numbers themselves are arbitrary, but the meaning is that Luffy would naturally get strength at a quicker rate and thus would need a lesser amount of time to reach the same level of strength Roger had at his prime. This also implies that Luffy would eventually be stronger than Roger was. If Luffy has a faster rate of strength gaining and started at an earlier age, that automatically means such. As a result, it is clear to me that Luffy CAN become Pirate King at 20. (He set sail on his birthday so it would be over 3 years of sailing). |
DarkAngelz said: As a result, it is clear to me that Luffy CAN become Pirate King at 20. (He set sail on his birthday so it would be over 3 years of sailing). god.. with all i've said, ppl still honestly believe Luffy has enough time within 1 year to do all the following: become strong enough to fight the younko (i'd say he has to become AT LEAST twice as strong as he is now, as Kaidou was able to even survive Whitebeard's attacks), BEAT ALL OF THEM (cmon you have to take recovery time into account too, it doesn't matter how strong you might have become, you will get seriously injured in a fight with them) and on top of that finding the one piece, which'll grant him the title Pirate King? And with only this i'm being optimistic that he won't ever face trouble from the marines btw. and why twice as strong? well obv cuz if you don't try to be desillusional, he couldn't even take down Mingo, who CLEARLY shit his pants by even thinking of Kaidou going to atk him, which means that mingo has simply NO CHANCE of survival. Else a psycho wouldn't be so scared. Oh and just a little reminder: Akainu killed Ace with ease, who, at that time, was still stronger as Luffy is now (ye he was weakened, nontheless we saw Akainu having enough strength to severely injure Whitebeard. and considering Akainu is weaker than Kaidou, the strongest man alive, how can Luffy even injure Kaidou? be realistic for once and realise that Luffy needs a hell lot more time to face the Younko. god, the fanboys in here must have no idea about how time works.. |
HiroyuukiAug 23, 2015 1:46 PM
|
Hiroyuuki said: DarkAngelz said: As a result, it is clear to me that Luffy CAN become Pirate King at 20. (He set sail on his birthday so it would be over 3 years of sailing). god.. with all i've said, ppl still honestly believe Luffy has enough time within 1 year to do all the following: become strong enough to fight the younko (i'd say he has to become AT LEAST twice as strong as he is now, as Kaidou was able to even survive Whitebeard's attacks), BEAT ALL OF THEM (cmon you have to take recovery time into account too, it doesn't matter how strong you might have become, you will get seriously injured in a fight with them) and on top of that finding the one piece, which'll grant him the title Pirate King? And with only this i'm being optimistic that he won't ever face trouble from the marines btw. and why twice as strong? well obv cuz if you don't try to be desillusional, he couldn't even take down Mingo, who CLEARLY shit his pants by even thinking of Kaidou going to atk him, which means that mingo has simply NO CHANCE of survival. Else a psycho wouldn't be so scared. god, the fanboys in here must have no idea about how time works.. Without some BS in it, Luffy can not do shit alone. If Luffy awakens his devil fruit, he would be really OP, because he also have his gears and then this? Yeah it'll be a little... bs. |
| @ Isterio, plz O PLZ go read about Shikki, then you'll realise they were rivals long before Roger's final journey. AND CHECK THE DAMN PIC OF HIM MEATING RAYLEIGH ALREADY! Shikki had many fights with Roger BEFORE he got ill, when he got ill and went on his final journey, Shikki offered to team up AND PRETEND NOTHING EVER HAPPENED between them after he heard that Roger discovered an ancient weapon. also, a CLEAR way to see that Roger was a pirate for way longer is what you just said yourself, about Crocos and i had smth else too but i lost it so i'll post it once i remember it. |
|
More topics from this board
Poll: » One Piece Chapter 1113 DiscussionFMmatron - Yesterday |
7 |
by ramshireesh_1
»»
4 hours ago |
|
Poll: » One Piece Chapter 1 Discussion ( 1 2 )Veronin - Nov 1, 2009 |
73 |
by crumb_fr
»»
Apr 22, 3:52 PM |
|
Poll: » One Piece Chapter 1112 DiscussionAhriTheS3xyFox - Apr 16 |
31 |
by Pakumen-
»»
Apr 22, 12:40 PM |
|
Poll: » One Piece Chapter 1102 Discussion ( 1 2 )Mei-o_Scarlett - Dec 17, 2023 |
87 |
by Slimdudejim
»»
Apr 21, 10:46 AM |
|
Poll: » One Piece Chapter 769 Discussion ( 1 2 )Maerow - Nov 26, 2014 |
67 |
by KoniginElle
»»
Apr 21, 6:47 AM |