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Feb 18, 2008 3:15 AM
#1
Feb 18, 2008 3:37 AM
#2
I assume you were the 9, Shu. That's one proud Singaporean... 0_0 While I don't necessarily like Singapore, I don't hate it. Just that I dislike the way lots of things are runned here (ODEX, education system, National Service etc). |
Feb 18, 2008 3:55 AM
#3
Feb 18, 2008 3:55 AM
#4
All thing taken into consideration, I would say 6. Reasons as follow: - Country with no natural resource became first world. - Low corruption and government which looks after most of the country's needs in a way which has proven successful thus far. - Little visible racism. - When it comes to the show down, I won't be there. I don't find the worth in defending a rock layered with concrete. - Singapore's small size makes for an enclosed, ignorant lifestyle. Only those who may afford so gain knowledge other than urban survival knowledge, because none of the rest exists here. - It's pretty damn sad seeing people (literally) living in boxes, when elsewhere they could obtain decent lodging with that same kind of money. - The whole shepard-sheep form of government makes people disinterested in participating in the governing process. Instead of striving to work out a compromise between the people and the country's coffers like the people of other countries do. All we can do is complain. - I'm unhappy with my lifestyle here. EDIT: Please do not fear criticizing the PAP. The fear of a concentrated power will always destroy a nation. However I must say the PAP must be praised for having Singapore succeed despite concentrating power within themselves. We should be grateful. |
madeenerFeb 18, 2008 3:59 AM
Feb 18, 2008 5:17 AM
#5
madeener said: Please do not fear criticizing the PAP. The fear of a concentrated power will always destroy a nation. However I must say the PAP must be praised for having Singapore succeed despite concentrating power within themselves. We should be grateful. I agree. Though I am quite unhappy with the way they have practically screwed up our education system, they do deserve a certain amount of credit for governing the country so long, and bringing us from a rural 3rd world to a 1st world country. |
Feb 18, 2008 7:18 AM
#6
i put a 6. i agree with most of madeener's points. i'd say i'm proud enough of singapore, that when people ask me where i'm from, i can answer with no hesitation. i am most proud of the level of english proficiency in this country...felt good in my US school when i spoke english well, and everyone was surprised. then i'd say something along the lines of "are u kidding? i'm singaporean, duh..of course i'd know english!" i don't want to give too much credit to the PAP though. true, they did a good job, but i think the credit should go to the old guards in the PAP, for being smart enough to know a bit of economics, smart enough to take advice and model singapore after successful small nations like switzerland and smart enough to know that working to improve the country without any theft or corruption is actually good for the PAP members themselves in the long run. and even then, it's definitely easier to manage a small country than a big one. i think malaysia or indonesia could've managed to make a "singapore" of their own if all they had to focus on was one small plot of land. with the kind of western contacts we had and the favourable position in the straits channels too. so i don't really agree when people judge the PAP based on what they did in the past, 'cos the new PAP wasn't involved with all of that 60s/70s stuff anymore. singapore was more or less a 1st world country when the new guard came in. and i don't think the new guard have done enough to warrant much praise. they've kept our relevance to today's economy, but there've been rising road taxes, rising costs of living, rising property prices, all while salaries have remained much the same (and they try to compare our salaries to indonesia, when they should be comparing with western europe -.-). in a search for more growth, the government's been exploring sports schools and sporting achievements as well as increasing tourism revenue with the IRs...the former hasn't been very successful, the latter we'll have to wait and see. |
Feb 18, 2008 7:45 AM
#7
(continued) - this is, by the way, a huge criticism of the PAP there've been lots of screw-ups too. NKF, that whole "tree incident" anyone? what i'm most worried about though, is the status of our ministers today. frankly, ministers are just regular people. most of them haven't done anything outside of studying and a civil service job, also meaning that they have never worked in the private sector. some ministers and high level civil servants have tried their hand at private sector positions, according to an opposition MP, and most have found it a totally different ball game compared to their civil service life, where there isn't much fear of getting fired and lots of leeway when it comes to decision making. and yet, if you have gone to army or worked in the civil sector, you'd find out that captains treat colonels like gods, and colonels treat generals like gods, who in turn treat MPs like gods, and who treat the ministers like gods. which made us army goons about the same level as ants. :| when a minister is making an appearance at a function, everyone goes crazy and there is rehearsal after rehearsal, because we all know how the officers want to post out and get promoted. it's because singapore is now being run like a huge company, instead of the country it really is. and that's because we're such a one-party nation that ministers never really need to get reelected, and there's no such thing as approval ratings. there's the unnofficial lack of free-speech that helps the government too, which made sense during tumultous times back in LKY's day but not now. and because we're like a company without shareholders, the "executives" get to decide how much money to take home and we can't do anything about it. if you didn't know, part-time MPs take home $6-12k a month for attending around ONE TO TWO meetings a month - after which they focus on their OTHER job appointments. full-time MPs take home lots more. the prime minister, DPMs, senior minister AND minister mentor now take home MORE than $200,000 a month EACH. that's our tax money, and that's much more than Pres. George Bush is earning, and all this while there are singaporeans still without homes or trying to raise 3 kids with $1000+ a month. the government justifies this by comparing ministers salaries to executives in private corporations. why aren't they comparing salaries with members of political parties in other countries? |
greckoboyFeb 18, 2008 8:10 AM
Feb 18, 2008 8:07 AM
#8
(continued) let me also tell you all a little story. i was one of the students from VJC who got to meet our very own President Nathan in 2005. he told us of his heroics as a singapore ambassador. which was quite entertaining and motivational, actually. but later, one of us asked him what his daily schedule as a president was like, and, as far as i can remember, this is what he said. he wakes up in the morning, eats his breakfast and reads the newspapers. then, he goes for a morning walk. following that, he reads and signs papers in his office, if any. afterwards, he goes for lunch with friends/family or at a function. after lunch, he has an afternoon siesta. another word for a nap, that is. finally, he either attends an evening event or has dinner at his big home, does some reading and prepares for sleep. quite an easy life right? no risk of getting fired too so long as he lets the PAP do what they want. almost like living out a pension. and u know how much he gets? over $200,000 a month as well. around $3mil a year; same as the high ranking ministers. if i were in his boots, i'd obviously want to do another term as president like he announced. his salary is at that level because PAP wants to give the impression that the singapore president's role is as important as the prime ministers. total nonsense. anyway, my entire long story ends here. for now. frankly, something needs to be done about this. if you read "The Peak", you'd see all these pictures of children of MPs/ministers mingling, getting attached...in essence preparing the next generation of PAP members. it's a mild form of n3p0+1sm. quite worrying. oh and n3p0+1sm is a bad word, by the way. u might get sued for defamation if u say it out loud. by the way, i'll be voting for the opposition, if any, at the Singapore General Elections. do join me if you're old enough. :) sure, the opposition's even more screwed up, most of the time, but at least it'll help let the PAP know not to take their positions for granted. |
Feb 18, 2008 3:59 PM
#9
Well, we all know the excuse they gave, "It is to prevent corruption". Now OBVIOUSLY, if I had received so much money for not doing much, don't talk about corruption, I wouldn't even need to THINK about cash flow problems at all. I'll be frank, our president Nathan has done NOTHING of note that is worth remembering. At least our previous presidents did something of note worthy, be it bad or good. The only thing I remember President Nathan for is waving his hand during NDP. Wow, being paid $200,000 a month to work ONE FRICKING DAY a year? I spent almost 3 months worth of saturdays for that stupid event, and I don't even get my days off back, and he gets paid a whooper! Our edcation system is screwed up. Why do our locals look down on ITE? Why do we stereotype? Simple, because the govt focuses on "President's Scholar". EVERYTHING in SG is about results, results, results. Compare us with another similar nation, namely, Japan, who also has next to no natural resources with an abundance of human resource. I like their education system alot. Though all those legends about commiting suicide after exams are frightfully scared as well, but I like that they develop talents of different types, rather than focusing on results. Japan has something called vocational school, while we have the ITE. Why are they so differently treated when they are essentially the same thing? Because of this, there is a scramble for uiversity slots, namely, NUS slots. But I'll be frank, I never considered local universities, and never will. NUS graduates are famous for being competative on only one occasion: results. Bring them out to the real world, and they only know the book, nothing else. Most of the time, they'll end up finding that NUS grads are all talk, but no action. All that bull about NUS being a top 10 university. Our university isn't even reconised halfway around the world! Don't believe me? Take a person with all his degrees from NUS and look for a job in Canada. You'll be deeply sorry. So, what does a degree in NUS get you? YOu can only get a job in Singapore, where you are force to compete with foreigners who earn less than you, but are far more capable than you. Whoopie! (No offense to the NUS people here, or to those aiming for NUS, though). |
Feb 18, 2008 4:48 PM
#10
Feb 18, 2008 5:29 PM
#11
The monarchy get paid alot for doing nothing as well. And you should see their salaries, its ridiculous! And they ALL get paid alot from the queen down to a minor countess. And don't you think its funny that while we want to go to let's say, America, there are people from America who want to leave? 1.4million Americans left America last year though i'm sure alot more ppl went in. The pastures are always greener on the other side. No one's easily satisfied. There's no perfect place in the world. Western Europe is on the decline and becoming decadent. The rising power is China. But China doesn't turn up in these posts as a desirable country to go to at all. Why? |
Feb 18, 2008 7:09 PM
#12
What a sensitive issue =X For me i give 3/10 =X Although SG is peaceful,green and clean, Racism etc country. We lack of 1 major issue, that is freedom of speech. For example in the US, rising the transport fare need 2 party to agree, then they will rise but in SG, the Lee's agree, it will automatic rise. Even if we are to protest to the MP, nothing can be done. Another issue is about the ERP. If the goverment want to encourage citizen to take public transport, they should take the public transport for once and realize how crowded it is during peak hour -.- And yet they want people to squeeze. And oh ya. Our beloved prata man, aka President Nathan. His job was to watch the parliment and decide whether to agree or oppose some suggestion but all he do was agreeing. Y? because Lee's give him lotsa MONEY! If you guys do not know, President Ong oppose the PAP idea before and was blacklisted =X Sad case. Honestly, if u choose to serve the people, u shouldn't expect such a high salary. A salary that pawn the normal citizens. I am born in a Single parent family and honestly, the goverment did not do much to help us. From what i know, the MP of opposition do fork out the money to help their citizen but ours? ZZZ Overall SG just wasn't a good country for me >.<! I prefer to be in the states, Swiss or Australia then SG -.- |
Feb 18, 2008 8:35 PM
#13
@halberdierretsel yep it's all total bull. taking this kind of money to "prevent corruption" is like corruption itself. a corrupted chief financial officer assigning this sort of pay to all his executives instead of just himself so that no one will speak up against it. their further explanation to the media - by comparing their salaries to top executives in prvate corporations while saying that our blue-collar salaries are pretty high already by comparing it to those in less developed nations - really disgusted me. i wish school had been like japanese schools too. so much more fun lol. i think singapore's focused too much on efficiency instead of tending to the needs of the citizens. we've got quite a central planning system here, rather like a communist style of rule. need more engineers in singapore? make physics easier to get high grades so everyone gets into it! i heard they recently created a subject called China studies at JC level too...obviously because China is starting to emerge. we get segregated as early as late primary school, unlike japan, where people considering vocational colleges or universities still mingle in high school. in my sec school, practically everyone was going to JCs already so polytechnics and ITEs didn't cross my mind. i suppose their intention was to force the supposedly more intelligent into medicine/law/science research fields. but what's wrong with wanting to go into say, computer administration or hospitality or even manga drawing if it's in your interest? some of these professions can make more money than doctors/lawyers. it's just that it's higher risk and needs a special spark from the person. and that special spark's been culled from us singaporeans long ago. not just us of course, but our parents too. oh well NUS...i know it's a rather 2nd rate university too but it's just so much more convenient than going somewhere overseas..:x @shurtugal i don't agree with the whole monarchy thing as well. lol i'm just not conservative so i'd do away wth all these "relics of the past" if i could. but at least the monarchy's more honest than the PAP, who're still trying to justify their pay as "normal" and who're still living in denial that our president is more than just a figurehead. i also don't appreciate people who move to other countries and who get ang-moh boyfriends and stuff like that >.<. it's great if the ang-moh is a nice guy, but if he's fat and poor and not nice at all (meaning his sole "redeeming points" are his ang-moh-ness and little shallow things like opening the door for women..which i do too!) i take quite an issue to that! to me it's like running away from the problems in our country and not being proud of our Chinese heritage. anyway, for the 1.4 million americans who left america...if they left USA because of bad weather and George Walker Bush, then fine. but if they left because they couldn't make a living in USA, then they're in deep trouble. at the least they probably won't be able to come here and try to find a living unless they try to be toy-boys to some singaporean here. they should've stayed in america, where (if they're white) they still have some advantages and where in the suburbs, they can spend their whole life as a truck driver or sales manager and STILL be able to make a comfortable living in a HOUSE. if you're a truck driver/sales manager here, it's gonna be 3-room flat and relying on your children for retirement money because there's no such thing as a pension and CPF cash is too little. China doesn't turn up in these posts because they're quite like a bigger singapore. in that there is a central planning system because they ARE a communist country. and they also put the prosperity of the country ahead of the welfare of their citizens. can be seen in the way they try to maintain growth by keeping the chinese currency low to increase exports and decrease imports. if i were them i'd raise the yuan a little bit to let the citizens enjoy life once in a while. @dezhekun lol that's one caution i received from my dad's friend. practising law in singapore wouldn't be too fulfilling 'cos we'd just be practising Lee's Law all the time. the Lee family's word is law here and if we don't agree we can just ask LKY to sue us for defamation. -.- |
Feb 18, 2008 8:43 PM
#14
@dezhekun oh and good points about the parliament and the presidents btw. it's public service...if they're in it because of the money instead of love for the country then they're not suitable for the job. and if they ARE in it because of love for the country, i'm sure they wouldn't mind drawing in 20% or less of their current pay because i'm very sure that comfortable living can STILL be achieved in singapore with that kind of money. sigh ong teng cheong was such a good guy... |
Feb 19, 2008 9:38 AM
#15
RAWR. DON'T EVER CHANGE SCHOOLS TO JAPANESE SCHOOL STYLE! I WOULD DIE OF JEALOUSY SINCE I'M ALREADY FRIGGIN 17 AND NO MORE HIGH SCHOOL LIFE!!! =X Ah well if you just want a short summary of all the long paragraphs I've just read, look here. 1.PAP is just too money-vacuuming machine. They are earning far too much than what they actually really deserve for what they do. 2.Nathan practically did NOTHING for his own country despite being the head of Singapore. 3.The emphasis is totally wrong in educational system seemingly the government 'indirectly say' that Singaporean doesn't have 'talents'. But it was really actually them who stripped us off our 'talents'. No trouble earning money by drawing mangas or even writing stories. Your passion is there, your interest in there, YOU can make it big too. But no. Teachers tell you, "WORK HARD AND YOU'LL EARN LOTS OF MONEY IN FUTURE. STUDY THIS AND THAT. 'O' LEVELs CONFIRM COME OUT!" Other countries just looks alot better as they pay attention to the different kind of 'talents' in their people. 4.TAX go up, Transport fee goes up, even Taxi exponential increase in midnight charge, G.S.T 7%. Piang, might as well rob banks. Salary decrease here decrease there, all up only one down. Whats the point? I make a small example. The tax lets say tax us few thousands in maybe 20 years? During the 20 years the government will throw you a few hundreds back make you happy. Its still all your tax-ed money. Think too much on money you will just earn a headache. Correct me if I actually misunderstood a point. And here goes my own short paragraph. Ultimately I just think that it's a kind of luck for PAP that Singapore is a small dot on the globe. Any bigger and I don't think they could govern it to a point as of now. Claimed peaceful and green. Giving solid and valid reasons for all the tax rising might also settle down the citizens thoughts instead of raising it with some 'act discussions'. My mind is at a blank now since I just got back from my part-time job. Probably posting other thoughts another time. I voted for a 5 though. Just staying neutral in this. |
Feb 19, 2008 8:04 PM
#16
lol i see someone's practising his summarisation skills. :D well, i think u didn't include quite a few of my points, but i don't want to harp about that. anyway good point about the japanese school style actually...i just realised i'll probably die of jealousy too haha! my opinion is that i'd compare the government a little bit to NKF...we give lots of tax money to the government just like donations to NKF, and we hope that it'll be used in a good way, like setting up better infrastructure, more medical subsidies in polyclinics, hand-outs to the needy...but then most of it goes into paying the staff working in ministries and the army, and a relatively exorbitant amount is taken home by top ministers and MPs. a lot of the money is put into investments to TRY to make more money in the future. the IRs and science research hubs for example, and rather similar to NKF spending money organising extravagant charity shows and paying all those mediacorp "stars" to perform. some cash is invested in foreign companies (most famous of which, sadly, is Temasek Holdings' investment in Thaksin's Shin Corp) and in the end not much is left. oh we've also got a pretty broad tax base too. meaning the rich and poor in singapore generally have a relatively small difference in taxes despite our differences in pay, with less people exempted from tax too. unlike say, hong kong, where the rich are taxed a lot and most of the poor are tax exempt. or has the situation changed already? anyway greater efficiency but less equity in singapore. less equality, in a way. NKF also tried to run itself like a company and see what happened. there's no one to take the government to the sword though, since the opposition parties haven't given people enough decent alternatives during elections. |
Feb 20, 2008 2:49 AM
#17
We need more people running for the presidency. For this current president, he didn't even want to take the job originally. So he is actually getting paid for a post he didn't want to take up. Irony in play. And since i voted 9 and not 10, i still have some grouches. Like the en-bloc scheme. I DO NOT APPRECIATE BEING EVICTED!!! And we got like below market valuation price. Stupid scheme. |
Feb 20, 2008 2:55 AM
#18
oh but i thought u should be blaming your neighbours for agreeing to that price. don't really know how it all works, but i thought that it depends on how many percent of the households agree to the price offered. or maybe that's only for private companies buying over private property? just went through an en-bloc myself at upper east coast road...we thought we got a good deal, but then the property prices rose in our area a few months later. i think we could've probably sold it for $1-200,000 more now and that's a BIG jump. haiz...such is life... |
Feb 20, 2008 9:18 AM
#19
Feb 24, 2008 4:17 AM
#20
madeener said: - Country with no natural resource became first world. - Low corruption and government which looks after most of the country's needs in a way which has proven successful thus far. - Little visible racism. Agreed with those above and voted "7" in the polls... Although i have my fair share of grouches, i still find it quite ok when it comes to being a Singaporean. At least the government tries to help the people by making them help themselves... Too much of a British welfare system is not good lolz... The thing about the education system is this... SG's only resources are the people. Plus, to gain recognition in this world when you are not noticeable is no small matter. The people first must have the basic knowledge, then they will be able to compete with all the other people out there. That's probably why in SG, we have what it's known as the "paper system". No proper qualifications= lower chances of getting proper jobs. SG works such a way that only the MOST TALENTED people in will stand out since it's a qualification environment. Vocational colleges/ schools do btw do exists in SG, it's juz that these places cost quite a bomb to be in it and since they don't advertise that much... not a lot of people know about it, it makes it worse when ITE is the CHEAPEST vocational school in SG, since even if you graduate properly with certification, only a few would ever give the chance for people to prove themselves. Well, as long as you are rich, set up your own biz and be your own boss... though you'll find that you still need to hire people with the right qualifications to run the biz with you... Ahh... the rising costs of living. It's here where being a student sucks... and worse, being a student from a low-mid income family, where all the "government help" are so close yet so far. Tertiary school fees (referring to the Poly ones) don't come cheap and even after tuition grants, they are still quite expensive for a family with 2 kids of that level and average income of both parents working like crazy then earning a combined of $1.8k per month. Doesn't help the least bit when you as the eldest sibling and still can't sign forms coz you're not of legal age and having BOTH your parents handicapped... plus medical conditions... As the Chinese say: "The water which is located far away can't save a raging fire when it's not near." I totally hate being a student, can't help much except to try and earn my own pocket money... Then again, i'm in favor of the CPF schemes... at least they help people save money... that's why i don't have to worry about school fees n such... XD |
Feb 24, 2008 6:29 AM
#21
it'll be good if the government is trying to "help people by making them help themselves". after all it's not good if u give people too much monetary help and they don't need to work at all. but in any case i think it'll be EVEN better if MPs and ministers sacrifice some of their pay and improve efficiency a bit so we don't need to hire so many civil servants. 10+ million dollars a year could be better spent invested into something else. i don't think it's a case of being part of a spoilt new generation or being unreasonable because it's DEFINITELY manageable. for instance, how about giving our president and minister mentor $300,000 a year instead of $3mil? it's still very good money (i'd LOVE to have that kind of salary) and our MM's practically working for fun now anyway. aaah...CPF...a system created because the government believes we don't know how to save for our own futures. i like that the interest in CPF is quite high, but it sucks that the withdrawal date for a big chunk of it is when we're very old (what was it...80 years old? 85?) and if we die before that, the money's just going to disappear...won't be passed on to our children or whatever. mostly, i just wish that CPF could simply be a voluntary scheme...some of us need the money to get by NOW and not later. but thank goodness u can use some of the CPF money to invest. if not i'd complain even more...imagine all that money locked up there and not "working" at all. |
Feb 25, 2008 12:52 AM
#22
By the way the rational behind the high pay for ministers are as follows: 1.It's a stressful job. Failure is not an option 2.They got to be far-sighted. 3.If they are paid alot, they are less likely to be corrupt 4.Encourages our best to stay and lead the country instead of bringing their talent some where else. 5.Encourages the best from other countries (eg.Malaysia) to come here and lead (Quite a few of our current ministers aren't singapore-born. Not to mention leading entrepreneurs like Olivia Lum) And plenty of ppl don't know how to save for their future. Like me, i think. |
Feb 25, 2008 1:15 AM
#23
Regarding what you said, Shu: 1. Which job isn't stressful? In fact, I consider our education system a failure, since in only focuses on the acedemic geniuses, and shun all the others, be it arts, music, mechanical, sports etc. Only recently have they realised their folly, but its too little, too late. SG parents now only know to force their kids to study now. 2. All risk-takers have to be far-sighted too. Entreprenuers, investors, housing agents etc also need far-sightedness, so that is not an excuse. 3. True, but to be paid more than George Bush? I know the guy is a retarded president, but he is still technically the most powerful man in the world, and you tell me our dear president Nathan deserves more pay than him? Not likely. 4. That is again false. LKY's own grandson, Li Hongyi, is out of the country studying. So much for encouraging our local universities. Our acedemical geniuses are going overseas (namely, England and USA) for their degrees, so how is our govt encouraging us to stay behind? 5. Well, I have no arguements against that. Our Malaysian born ministers are somewhat different, since they grew up here. If you grew up here, I would consider you Singaporean, even if you are an angmoh. 6. CPF, as mentioned, should be a non-compulsary thing. Lots of people need the $$ now, if not, they wouldn't even have a future to spend that CPF. There were many legends about our govt using our CPF to invest, and lost a lot, thus requiring to increase CPF further, but I shan't go any further into this point, less I get sued for defamation. |
Feb 25, 2008 1:28 AM
#24
Ok my turn to rebutt! (we should all go join debate) 1.They make a mistake Singapore could fall. And when singapore falls, it's not going to be like America and rise again after the Great Depression. We don't have the resources for that. Especially not if the people start leaving and investments get pulled out wholesale. 2.The people you quoted, entrepreneurs and such, all earn ALOT! Most likely more than 3M a year. So it makes sense that we pay them an amount which people with their abilities would earn elsewhere. Though it is probably less. 4.Blame it on the global mindset. People still think that western universities are better because (a)they have a longer history and hence have been tried and tested more than our local u.s (b)colonialism in which the whites were seen as superior. But as long as they come back and not stay thre it's a win-win situation. If people need the $$ now, it depends on what they need it for. House? CPF can be used. Buy HDB flats. Healthcare? Medisave, medishield etc.(ss people will know this so darn well) Though if it comes down to stuff like food and electricity i don't think the person will have enough in his/her CPF to help anyway. |
Feb 25, 2008 5:48 AM
#25
Let's just be honest here, despite all those grumbles complaints blah blah, (Yes singapore is a country where everyone loves complaining.) Singapore's actually considered way better than many other countries in the world. Yea I do admit I'm one of those that complains alot as well so if you want me to write a list of what I'm unhappy with about singapore I could probably write a whole long chunk. Still, despite all the really 'rushed' system of life here for alot of things, we can actually say we are safe here and can live a stable life without severe poverty and corruption and wtv bad stuffs you can name. If someone was to ask me, am I proud of my country? Well, I guess I can say yes. For a country, we are one of the fastest growing countries out there. Which is a pretty good achivement for us. Quote greckoboy: i wish school had been like japanese schools too. so much more fun lol. Lol, I personally feel we have been watching way too much jdoramas and animes so we tend to think that way. (AH okay fine I admit it too okay? I tend to think that way but!!!) Well though its kindof true to a certain extend - most overseas schools are more fun than singapore afterall, but if you're talking about the system - Japan and singapore actually has the same kindof education system. The stressful and rushy kind. Yknow, the mug mug mug for entrance exams, pass get in fail out. Study for block tests, pass yay fail damn. Cram schools. Other countries with the same system as this would be India. I forgot the rest. Well.. Im sleepy from typing. I'll give singapore a 7/10. If talking about country stableness economy growth wise, singapore is definetely worth being proud of. But if talking about other things like the way we live, the lives we lead, what we actually do while we live (...) I guess maybe our lives arent that special and meaningful as many others. Anyway this just my 2cents. :) |
Feb 25, 2008 7:01 AM
#26
shurtugal!!!!! ahhhhh...how could u say that a minister's job is stressful!!!!! ahhhh...i'd like you to know that one of the MOST stressful things in the corporate world is the fear of the sack...and singapore ministers do not have to worry about getting sacked at all! in the private sector, you have to be MORE than decent to avoid getting sacked. there're MPs who've left the government on their own and tried their hand in the private sector and got sacked themselves. talking about other countries, the next US president's going to have to solve the whole Iraq crisis, deal with tons of environmental disasters and making a HUGE country more environmentally friendly. he/she's got to solve the problems with Iran and Korea, and do something about the billions of dollars of deficit in the federal reserve. all problems caused by his predecessor. not him. and failure will be VERY disastrous, not just for america but the whole world. should that job deserve less pay than our prime minister? our own president? how about the government in Iraq, where a decision made could lead to them getting targetted for assassinations? our government already have a blueprint in place. the country is stable, thanks to THEIR predecessors. for us, failure is DEFINITELY an option. we can afford to blow $100,000 to save a tree that isn't THAT special from being cut down. and when there's an increase in road accidents around that tree, we cut that tree down anyway. our ministers make lots of mistakes, but we've got hoards of civil servants doing all the dirty work and the MPs help to back the rest up and reduce damage. Shurtugal said: 3.If they are paid alot, they are less likely to be corrupt isn't that the same propoganda we heard from the PAP themselves? isn't being paid a lot corruption in itself? there're lots of countries (USA, european nations, Japan, even malaysia i feel) which don't have financial corruption among the government ministers and MP-equivalents. all we're doing in legalising it. i think that 20-30 people among 4 +million of us drawing in $40+million of tax money a year is pretty close to corruption. like i said, if they really cared for singapore, they wouldn't need so much money to serve. how about $50,000 a month? that should still be very good right? sufficient that you don't have to worry about money and won't have to think about corruption too. and actually there's still quite a lot of corruption already. take our HDBs for example. $3-500,000 for a 3-room flat that's only yours for 99years?. how can a person earning $2000 a month afford that without saddling himself with near life-long debts? the government can say they're trying to save land and that $3-500,000 IS affordable but the fact is that they make a lot from this, and because it's 99years old it's a renewable source of revenue. entrepeneurs do NOT earn a lot on the average. most entrepeneurs invest thousands of dollars and do not see it coming back at all. i've heard of entrepeneurs in the food business or making educational toys who never see a paycheck. all we hear about are success stories. entrepeneurs do not receive any monthly income, invest their OWN money, and if things don't turn out well, their whole life is ruined. definitely much more risk than an MP or minister. i also don't really think the university business is a win-win situation if the students return to singapore. we're pretty much pouring in billions of dollars into other countries paying all those university fees. can't be helped though, since we've only got space for a few universities and everyone here seems to need a degree or diploma these days to get their HDB flats and pay for their medical bills and food. sorry if my post is very messy but i just feel very strongly about all this. you can say that we're all just a spoilt new generation, but i don't think we should be satisfied that we're "better off than other people" because there are plenty of risk-free ways we can improve this country and very obvious rooms for improvement too. all i can do is complain now, sadly, but i think every person in this world has got a right to complain about anything. |
greckoboyFeb 25, 2008 7:20 AM
Feb 25, 2008 7:10 AM
#27
Back at Shu again (you're right, maybe we should join the debate team! :) ) 1. Mistakes are already made. - Our inflation is going out of hand, and increasing the taxes now isn't going to help much. It's true that countries like Canada has an insane tax rate, but they has next to free education, free medical, pension ,when we have CPF, and that is what we pay into as well. - ERP at EVERY FRICKING ROAD we drive to is not going to help traffic, because if all the roads leading to an area have required payment, we all have to pay anyhow, regardless of the road we take, so what's the point of ERP then? - Is IR going to help our country? Not really. It requires our people to work there and serve the foreigners. Because of that, many from our generation rush to take up courses to be some part of the IR. When the IR is finished, are they really going to employ ALL of these people? Highly unlikely. Wouldn't that lead to unemployment? 2. Entrepreneurs are those who work their asses of to get where they are, and investing takes years of studying of the market to actually earn while investing. And politicians don't become a politician by studying. LKY wasn't studying to be a minister. He was a laywer. He could very well have carried on in that business, but it was his choice to go into politics. Same with the other politicians. 4. I know for a fact of the following: Many NUS students aren't very strong in the working world because of one thing: They are ONLY acedemically inclined. NUS is ranked among the top 10 unis in the world. Why? Our lecturers aren't any better, and neither are our students. It's because the students there are pure study freaks, and also because of it's infrastracture. NUS students will vomit out everything said in the books, but give them an actual problem, and they will falter. Also, trying going to places like Canada with your NUS degree and try to find a job. I'll wish you all the best, since it won't help. Singaporeans are certainly NOT returning after their studies. I have a friend whose brother is about to graduate from UOL in London. He is planning to settle down there. Similiarly to my friend now in Australia. Now, these are our top talents sent overseas to progress for our country, so why aren't they returning? It's because the nation doesn't give them a reason to! 6. I myself know that feeling of requiring every cent to survive. When I was young, my family was so poor we survived on porridge and pickles daily. Now CPF certainly wasn't helping. It was siphoning of our daily livinghood! I know that there ARE still some people out there like this. |
Feb 26, 2008 12:25 AM
#28
Everyone's saying alot, it's hard to keep track. So i won't make any direct rebuttals in this. I hope someone remembers that there may be racism invloved. Because we (or most of us) aren't white. And we're shorter. We also have funny accents and come from a university in a tiny and relatively new country that people probably wouldn't even belive was one of the "best". NUS students may ONLY be academically inclined but it's not the school's fault. All those who are more than that have been sent overseas on scholarship. And why? I don't really get it either. They want ppl to come here and study in our uni and they send our best abroad. Does it really matter if they study here or overseas if they are already that good? AND if it really is that hard to find a job overseas with a NUS cert, all the more they should let our best study here... I like to complain too! And i enjoy an argument with my sis now and then. It really gets my adrenaline going. |
Feb 26, 2008 1:13 AM
#29
i think it's 'cos the government are in a little bit of a dilemma, one where i've got no ideas how to solve too, for now. the thing is, we need people (locals or not) with the paper qualifications sufficient to attract the best companies to invest in singapore. which means we need the people high up in the civil service and lots of scholars with "brand-name" university certificates. it's not just in canada or other places overseas; NUS certs will be at a disadvantage when foreign companies want to invest in singapore as well. so the only way we can get the best of both is to make NUS itself a brand name. but the competition's fierce and it's only going to happen if the best stay in NUS and accomplish something. but we also need these guys to get those oxford, cambridge, harvard and yale certs, etc that singapore needs so much, so... and it goes on and on. vicious cycle. plus like i said in my previous post, because most young singaporeans have to go into higher level employment to maintain our standard of living (since now we don't really have many factories and construction stuff is done by foreigners), we have too many people needing university degrees that our universities alone can't support them (and with a lack of landspace we can't start up many more unis). so no choice but to go overseas as well. i don't envy our government for having such a problem. then again, it seems like they're happy not to do anything about it so... haha i argue quite a lot with my sister too, although i don't enjoy it much myself...she's pretty ruthless so no mercy will be shown if u piss her off haha. hmm, she's actually a member of this club too, so...i just hope she doesn't notice what i just said about her...0_o |
Apr 9, 2008 10:16 PM
#30
I think Singapore is a good enough country. What I'm disappointed in is Singaporeans, the people, us. We're too young, naive, ignorant. Simple courtesy issues such as making way for passengers to alight from the MRT first before boarding, or keeping left on the escalators so people in a rush can move on the right. They purposely put signs "Please let passengers alight first" on the doors and "Please stand on the left" on the RIGHT side of the escalators. Yet do anyone pay any attention to these signs? Such simple signs of courtesy is a rarity in Singapore, whereas it seems like common sense in some other countries. Go to Japan for example, you see people single file left side of the escalators, while people rush on the right. In Japan, you finish a drink from a vending machine and actually have difficulty finding a garbage bin nearby, yet there's barely any litter visible around. Here, there's garbage bins around every corner and you see litter and trash all over. This is a problem in the people, not the country. When I mentioned this to a cousin of mine, he donned a surprised expresson and asked "got such thing meh?". Of course there are many countries that are far worse off than we are, but still, these are things that can be improved on as long as people are aware of it. We need to realize this and change ourselves for the better. We need to make people aware of this fact, especially the younger generation. Of course, there's good in this country too, only after going overseas do you start to appreciate the security and abundance of greenery in Singapore. |
Apr 10, 2008 3:10 AM
#31
I agree with Takase. Did you vote the 9 by the way? Was feeling pretty lonely up there all by myself. But I think the people are on the whole, O.K. We're a bit like too pampered and sheltered kids you see cause the government tries to do think for us all the time and anticipate our future needs.(but i like it) This we really take for granted. And on a side note, on some survey by Today, results showed that Singaporeans were pretty proud of singapore. So does this reflect on the kind of people who normally come online or were the Today people interviewing the wrong, or too small, a group of people? |
Apr 13, 2008 9:57 PM
#32
I voted 8. Quoted from TakaseRyou - "This is a problem in the people, not the country. When I mentioned this to a cousin of mine, he donned a surprised expresson and asked "got such thing meh?". Of course there are many countries that are far worse off than we are, but still, these are things that can be improved on as long as people are aware of it. We need to realize this and change ourselves for the better. We need to make people aware of this fact, especially the younger generation. Of course, there's good in this country too, only after going overseas do you start to appreciate the security and abundance of greenery in Singapore." Singaporeans are too pampered, seeing only what negatives our government has, but never seeing the positives. After reading most of the posts, i still don't see why Singapore deserves a 1 in the poll =/ |
Apr 14, 2008 6:32 AM
#33
yes, we are pampered. but i'm of the opinion that a lot of ministers and especially their children are quite pampered too. just need to see all those gala dinners on The Peak and S.R. Nathan getting David Beckham to take photos with his family to see the extent of how many people in power misuse their positions a little, however innocently. credit to the government, though, that our food prices haven't risen as much as in other countries. but anyway. as TakaseRyou said, we Singaporeans are too naive and ignorant (i didn't get the "young" part lol and i suppose u meant something else since we DO have an ageing population). but hey, we've got to stop thinking that the PAP is just some external force that runs our lives because the next batch of PAP candidates are among us now as our peers. i can say that i've had a first look at some of them already, given my sec school, and they're all just as spoilt and naive as we are...so what's the future gonna be? spoilt young singaporeans complaining about a spoilt young PAP or defending them from criticism based on their parent's performance? up to you, but personally i'd rather complain. despite that, i agree that singapore doesn't deserve a 1. quite hilarious actually. 0.0 i take it that 1 means it can't get any worse than that...so we're on the same level as say...ethiopia? |
Apr 14, 2008 7:12 AM
#34
Of course the government kids are pampered. I was the same army BMT batch as a certain "white horse". Because of his dad's power, the company he was in can't be punished, he can book out from Tekong daily, and that whole school was allowed to bring in MP3, while in mine we can't even bring snacks in (at least, not legally :) ). Even a big gun in our nation hasn't really been through any real trouble in his life, which was why he stupidly say to order "mee siam mai hum", when mee siam never had any cockles, but probably because he never ate that in his lifetime. 1 is voted by a random idiot that just voted without doing through his/her skull. I ain't a fan of Singapore, but I have stated quite a long while back that credit the government for keeping us afloat. They just need a stronger opposition to make sure they buck up. |
Apr 14, 2008 9:19 AM
#35
hAa guess that PAP is getting slack without any form of serious opposition. |
Apr 15, 2008 3:31 AM
#36
Apr 15, 2008 3:47 AM
#37
Shurtugal said: Aono said: hAa guess that PAP is getting slack without any form of serious opposition. Well the voters in general (not me, i'm underaged) seem to be pretty happy to give the PAP an almost complete control of the parliament. Well sadly no other parties' giving the majority voters reasons not to. Our elections are definitely one of the most boring in the world. No excitment at all =/ |
Apr 15, 2008 4:05 AM
#38
Simple terms would be, "I don't like the PAP, but I don't like the opposition more!" |
Apr 15, 2008 4:12 AM
#39
yah which is why i said it before, and i'll say it again for the umpteenth time: VOTE FOR OPPOSITION!!! for the next elections if u can!! if you already have a strong opposition, then maybe u might not want to risk it, but if PAP wins like 90% of the votes in your GRC every time, no harm trying for 80%, maybe even 70...even if the opposition is bloody screwed up, our numbers are small, so u can't expect us to have much effect on the eventual outcome of a PAP victory. it's mainly just a tiny way to warn them not to take their positions for granted. plus there's another incentive too: if opposition wins, your GRC will start to get really screwed up as PAP allocates a low budget to that district so the people'll vote for PAP next time. if PAP wins by a landslide, they'll spend a decent amount to improve the area but not too much because they aren't that worried. BUT if PAP wins by a really tiny margin, they'll spend much more of their budget on your district to woo the people in there over to their side since they're still the ones in charge, not the opposition! i can't say that i know what really goes through the minister's minds, but we've heard of opposition-led GRCs receiving a really small upgrading budget so it all makes sense, right?? :D |
Apr 15, 2008 4:13 AM
#40
Or " I don't like the PAP, but who else can i vote!" |
Apr 22, 2008 11:14 AM
#41
Wow, after skimming through most of the posts, I can see that we're a very disgruntled lot. Anyone older than 40 here? I think I can summarise this discussion into 2 parts, one focusing more on the govt and its ineffectiveness, etc. and the other on the citizens who are either unhappy with what the government is doing or they themselves being inadequate to understanding the needs of this country. Well that's my thesis to base my argument on. Recently, I've been a "victim" of Singapore's education system. I did badly in my A levels and I doubt I'll get a place in the local unis. So where does that leave me? SIM? Where everybody who didn't do well and couldn't go overseas/ too conservative to go overseas is going?? I'm not belittling SIM but I'm sick of being stuck in Singapore's education system. However, I see this as a blessing in disguise. Singapore and its policies have never really affected me. I've always done above average in school and I'm a "guai-kia" so np. Singapore loves people who follow rules. But with these falling out of line, I began to see that this country is losing its focus. Sure, we only have manpower as our resource and we can't afford to put everybody in a uni, but then, they are already losing their top 10% to ivy league unis. At this rate, they may only be able to provide their top 20%-30% but what about people below that? True, I didn't work hard enough, should have gone to a poly, but oi! poly people are also making it to uni leh. So you lose ur top 10% jc students, top 10% poly and top 20% jc go to local u, the rest neh? Don't tell me the rest use foreign workers? Ok, besides education since MP thamusharagratnam (sp?) has been transferred to finance, he was a damn good education minister, I will go on to other things. Like how the new PAP totally sucks. I am not a fan of Lee Hsien Loong after he said that 66% in the 2006 election was a "strong mandate" wth? I think the PAP is too kiasu because they are so afraid to lose their "strong mandate" that Serangoon has FIVE grcs. I go to Serangoon mrt and the cc there says " welcome to Marine Parade." I'm sure Serangoon is near the sea lah. Rarr, I'm really sorry that I'm digressing and talking too much about myself. I understand that my generation of youths are a pampered, disgruntled, expect PAP to solve everything, like to complain bunch of people and that the PAP hasn't really gotten this into their heads because they are trying to find a successor from this group of people. ROFL. However, I am disappointed in my government insofar as that they are too kiasu and I really have no idea what they're doing because focusing on our economy and issues like petra blanca (sp?) is really not as important as trying to understand their people and cultivating a culture whereby people are less selfish and are more pro-active in helping the government to achieve its goals. So some of you say that the people here suck but think about it this way, why do we have such a competitive attitude? Why are we always rushing? And don't forget, you may only see what your social group has allowed you to see. Myself being from convent schools, I didn't realise that there are people out there who are more chinese-ed/ malay-ed and can't speak proper english or grow up in conservative backgrounds whereby they don't dare to speak up even for others. It was only through work that I realise that we (read pampered, knowledgable youths) are only focusing on what we want, ie better education, more job opportunities without realising that there are people out there who can't afford it and that the government has done quite a bit for them. What I'm trying to say is that, Singapore has taken care of its best and worst, but it's the middle they have neglected and the middle who are voicing out. But they are also the ones with the means to travel overseas and most probably not come back. So if you're in this group, think about it, stop complaining and go do something for yourself or JOIN THE PAP and become the next prime minister and change Singapore and Singaporeans attitude. I am only one person. I can start up groups on courtesy and kindness, but someone will tell me to fuck off and tell the PAP instead. So I am not complaining that I won't get a place in NUS, NTU or SMU. I will instead, save money and go overseas to further my education and maybe when I'm done exploring the world I'll come back and see how I can help. Provided the people will be more supportive of the government then. All I can say is that, Singapore has given me a good place to grow up in, but I think there are better places out there. True it is safe, green, etc. but that is not enough. They have provided a good PHYSICAL environment to live in but they should start focusing on MENTAL, EMOTIONAL and SOCIAL. True, it takes 5 year policies to take time to take effect but I don't see much effort in starting them now. In 5 years, I'll be long gone from this place. So, am I proud of Singapore? Not really, but not because it was a bad place but because it has cultivated a politically- and nationally-ignorant individual in its quest for better grades and higher economic status. I'll give Singapore a 6. I wonder why I'm not posting this on PAP boards. |
green-yetiApr 24, 2008 8:55 AM
Apr 24, 2008 3:26 AM
#42
Apr 24, 2008 8:45 AM
#44
Shurtugal said: Wow... thesis... Impressive argument. Do you take KI? I wanted to but I didn't make the cut after first 3 months. GP easier lah, don't have to think so much. Thx for the compliment! My argument isn't that great just more objective and MAKES SENSE! coz all I hear is people complaining about the PAP and not focusing on other things in singapore. greckoboy said: ...what the heck's KI? Knowledge and Inquiry. It's a new subject at H2 (A) level. It tests thinking and creativity. A lot tougher than GP because most of the readings are philosophical. |
green-yetiApr 24, 2008 9:00 AM
May 20, 2008 6:51 AM
#45
I personaly think that all of you are underestimating your own country >< I've lived in the USA, Canada, Austria, Ukraine and Singapore and the best place out of all of them is the 'little red dot' I might be missing somethings, but compared to everywhere else, Singapore is WOAH O____O Sure, some things are lacking[climate >< climate>< CLIMATE!!!], but you get treated as a person here more than anywhere else in the world... The educational system is fine ( a bit long) but compared to the 10 years [ oh sure lets make you know uni stuff before you graduate!] I really wish I could have stayed and finished secondary school T.T You don't get wrinkles at 15 when you're there >.> U.U I might be remembering Singapore wrongly, but I find it an awesome place ^^ |
May 20, 2008 8:09 AM
#46
@ Emerald: A person that has only lived here for 4 years obviously won't know psychological problems faced a student here, the same way we won't know whether a US student has a certain problem. Similarily, I couldn't care less about the politics of another country, say, the US presidential elections, and who wins, and you probably couldn't care less about our politics too. I should know, since my case is very much the same as yours, living overseas for half my live as well. You get treated as a person here because you are foreign. Locals treat foreigners are a first class, while we own locals are second class. Don't believe me? Go into a shop same time as a local, and see who gets served first. The grass is always greener on the other side. It's only human to be un-please with our nation. |
May 20, 2008 9:28 AM
#47
@Emerald yeah, well i do agree that Singapore is better than a large number of other places, given its we-have-it-all nature and a government that, more or less, wants singapore to "do well". but i fail to understand why we should be satisfied with just that. (not much we can do about the heat and humidity, sadly..:) and i've studied at a local elementary school in USA before..and i have to say that Singapore's primay schools require much more studying, have a recommended 2hrs of homework a day as compared to America's 50minutes, do not have a stipulated "play time", etc...most of all, there's just that much more pressure to do well here. it's hard to explain without an extremely lengthy post but it's just the culture. and our streaming system. or maybe the pressure's just greater at the top. i went to RI, and over there, the culture is such that, if you can't get into a top junior college (JC), you're branded as a failure by your peers. and then once u enter JC, the workload triples from your secondary school days. 0.0 nothing unmanageable, but you'd have to give up quite a lot of hobbies, if you know what i mean. just a little bit from me. most of the other complaints about the government have been mentioned before. |
May 20, 2008 12:26 PM
#48
@ geckoboy and Halbetier [I hope I spelled that right. So tired T.T] XD You both assume I'm from the US =P Hehee nope, I'm from Ukraine and trust me....the educational system is ZOMG DIE >.>Recommended hours of homework....7 1/2 HOURS (and school ends at 6 pm T.T) I stayed enough to learn about streaming (since I went to St.Margaret's both pri and sec and tooK PSLE )And I've never been treated any different from anyone in my class ( or in stores etc) so I can't really comment on that (maybe you're right LOL) But I just think you should be happy that the goverment is actually more or less ... NORMAL , compared to ours and the US... I know I'm sticking my nose in but I really feel like sharing my two cents XD |
May 20, 2008 6:11 PM
#49
Welllll, I was speaking in general, using USA as an example. Can't say I know much about Ukraine, other than it used to be part of USSR, so I can't really comment. We were saying, in a few of the replies, anyway, that the reason our government is "normal" is because of the big bucks they earn. I mean, earning more than George W. Bush, and we are just a red dot on the map? Seriously, no wonder there's no need for corruption, since the rules are altered to suit the situation to the extreme anyhow! |
May 20, 2008 6:30 PM
#50
@Emerald nah i didn't think u were from the US bcos i did see your profile. i compared our education system to the USA simply because i've only studied there apart from singapore. :x but, well, to be honest 7 1/2 hours seems quite unlikely bcos it'd be 1.30am before you're done with it - not including travelling time, eating, taking a shower etc...are you talking about the primary school equivalent in Ukraine or a higher level of education? (i hardly know a thing about ukraine besides its football players. 0.o) and it's not how long people spend on homework on average; 2 hours is the official MOE guideline (at least back when i was in pri school, not sure if it's changed) on how much homework we should be receiving each day. in the end, i'd spend even more time than that, because i was a procrastinator and a slow writer to begin with, and corrections/recorrections were never included in that "2 hours". but anyway, i do agree with hal when he says foreigners get treated better. as to why that happens is quite a long story; money, novelty, class, the impression of some that the foreigner brings any or all of them...but i don't hold it against foreigners unless they act like they expect that better treatment from us. and well, yeah maybe i should be happy that things are at least better than other places. but i've got time on my hands and seeing as to how there're still ways to improve the country that wouldn't require any risk taking, i don't see why i shouldn't complain about the country when i just love bitching around anyway haha! nothing wrong with sharing your views in any case. your last point about being happy is a very valid point, when i think about it more. >.> |
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