| So, since I like this type of discussion, being less opinion based an all, and has a higher chance of civil discourse, I thought I would make a general thread regarding it. I realize that it's unlikely it will get many replies, since the anime subforum is not as active as it used to be in 2014 but I felt like getting some plot hole misconceptions off my chest. So let's get to it. But first, the definition of the word: A plot hole, or plothole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that creates a paradox in the story that cannot be reconciled with any explanation. These include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline. Plot holes have been defined as "...contradictions in a screenplay...[which] can both be mentioned on paper or implied by the premise and universe of the screenplay [size=120][b][i]Sasuke Great Snake Escape[/size][/b][/i]: Refutation: [size=120][b]Kakashi should be blind, due to using MS multiple times[/size][/b] Refutation [size=120][b]General confusion about Orochimaru and The four Hokage Edo Tensi[/size][/b] [size=120]Rinne Tensei[/size] [size=120]Why is Madara reanimated to his prime/Young age when he died old[/size] [size=120]How did Madara use Susanoo, when his eyes are Rinnegan[/size] [size=120]Fate of the Tailed Beast after the host dies[/size] Well, that's the most common ones from what I remember. You can check this thread if you are a manga reader So list the plot holes you think the series has. You can list asspulls as well: An Ass Pull is a moment when the writers pull something out of thin air in a less-than-graceful narrative development, violating the Law of Conservation of Detail by dropping a plot-critical detail in the middle, or near the end of their narrative without Foreshadowing So hopefully this will be a civil thread, tho it will probably be inactive anyway >.> no regret :o |
tsudecimoApr 1, 2015 10:48 AM
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| Only Shippuden or including Naruto too? |
     Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
| Honestly I don't remember every little detail but what your wrote sounds about right. The only thing I can think of is that for the first one about Sasuke summoning Manda. Did Kishi ever tell us how much chakra summoning required? Also, correct me if I'm wrong here. Sasuke was pretty good at creating summoning jutsu's for just about everything. I remember him using a summoning jutsu to release a bunch of ninja stars during his fight with Itachi. My point being that maybe he didn't need to use his chakra and just had some delayed/stored chakra that was inscribed on his person at some point. Anyway, I think there are bigger issues in terms of plot holes with their fight against then anything else in the series. |
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IntroverTurtle said: Only Shippuden or including Naruto too? All. Till the latest episode, except fillers. I don't care for the Naruto repeat thing, but it will be posted anyway |
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| http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1199103&show=160 Many (but not even close to all) were posted here. Examples of yet-to-be-refuted ones: 1) The Jinchuuriki seal being at its weakest during childbirth yet they insist on choosing a female Jinchuuriki. 2) Sage mode requiring perfect balance of natural energy. Perfect. 100%. So "imperfect" mode makes no sense other than trying to show how cooler Naruto is. 3) All the dire situations Jiraiya was put in, never attempted to use sage mode once, until the writer decided to pull the mode out his ass. Sannin Battle, Itachi's return. Never. 4) Naruto's age at the beginning of the Genin exam. 5) Few episodes ago, Kyuubi threw Kakashi into the Kamui dimension, rendering intangibility of Obito completely pointless, yet he decided to get out anyway. 6) if naruto had to repeat 2 years in the ninja academy, why is he the same age as the others in his class? 7) Sasuke few episodes ago: I want to imrpove our image in Konoha Now: I don't care what you guys think. Read more at http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1250009&show=120#9EVVVU3J42FkrCof.99 8) episode 373, Not trying to seal poudy madara because who knows why. (Although not trying to undo him completely through Kabuto makes me thing they like him being there) 9) Minato's kyuubi, I forgot they split him, but now that I think about it, if it was Yin-Yang, light and dark, male and female, positive and negative, good and evil, wasn't naruto trying to combine Yin and Yang in the confining arc? Did kishi decide, "I need a new powerup for naruto, so I'll expand the Yin into a completely new Kurama"? The whole idea seems fishy to me. Since when can they split stuff into Yin and Yang? How did Yin Kurama not awaken if he was sealed within dead minato? If people can split and seal like that, why not just apply seals of all beasts into dead people and be done with it? That sounds more stupid than choosing female Jinchuurikis. 10) - Tsunade surviving being cut in half. 11) So... Madara used Mangekyou, lost his eyes and he took Izuna's eyes... First, was that use mangekyou the same that saved him from Hashirama? And second, it was revealed that Izuna had died long any of this happened. How did Madara have the knowledge of mangekyou and its cost on the eyes? Assuming he kept the eyes safe till he had use of it like Danzo. 12) New one: Rin's Bijuu doesn't awaken after she dies |
| End Zionazism |
| The thing is, when it comes to chakra, your guess is as good as any reader, unless something states otherwise. Also, death by exhaustion from chakra, can only happen to characters like Kakashi, which have very average chakra level, Kakashi himself stated when he was training Naruto with Yamato, that he doesn't have a lot of chakra like Naruto. Even part 1 Naruto and Sasuke have had higher chakra levels than Kakashi, since they are above average. Summoning jutsu while requiring a good amount of chakra, it's still possible, for someone with a certain amount of chakra to do it, especially someone as talented as Sasuke. It's not a video game, there is no chakra bar to tell, so using it as basis for a plot hole, is flimsy. @Isterio I messaged you something, read it please. |
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| When Naruto was learning to be a sage it was said that if someone can't control natural energy that they would turn into a frog statue and it was shown in the Pain fight that one did turn into a frog statue after absorbing it. But does that mean a snake sage would turn into a frog if they weren't able to utilize natural energy? And what about Jugo? Apparently he used natural energy. Then was the cursed seal power natural energy so would Sasuke have turned into a frog statue or a statue if he wasn't able to control it?(which he wasn't and it just showed him raging, not turning into a frog) And if it wasn't natural energy(aka the curse seal) that Sasuke had learned to master over the timeskip, why was he able to use natural energy or sage chakra or whatever to fight Obito when they realized he could only be hurt by it? |
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
IntroverTurtle said: When Naruto was learning to be a sage it was said that if someone can't control natural energy that they would turn into a frog statue and it was shown in the Pain fight that one did turn into a frog statue after absorbing it. But does that mean a snake sage would turn into a frog if they weren't able to utilize natural energy? And what about Jugo? Apparently he used natural energy. Then was the cursed seal power natural energy so would Sasuke have turned into a frog statue or a statue if he wasn't able to control it?(which he wasn't and it just showed him raging, not turning into a frog) And if it wasn't natural energy(aka the curse seal) that Sasuke had learned to master over the timeskip, why was he able to use natural energy or sage chakra or whatever to fight Obito when they realized he could only be hurt by it? I think it's quite clearly not a literal rule to turn into a frog statue, it's directly relevant to frogs Sage mode. That Pain turned into a frog, because the natural energy was collected from Naruto. Since in the whole series, only two inhabitants of the summoning animals (I don't think the slugs count, since Harishama is an exception in having the wood sage mode), can do this, it's a logical assumption that he would turn into a snake statue or not at all, since judging from Kabuto the two sage modes seem to differ. The natural energy mixed with one's own chakra lead to the appearance change, in Naruto and Jiraiya, they resemble frogs, in eyes, and Jiraiya more so than Naruto. While Kabuto and Orochimaru resembled Snakes. Jugo is a special case. His clan posses that special ability, to naturally absorb that energy, so they can change their shapes, which is shown, when Jugo enters that heightened mode against the Raikage. But since he wasn't able to control it well, it leads to him going berserk. And wow, I literally just realized something while typing this, Jugo, being friendly with animals, is prove of his ability to gather natural energy, if you remember during Naruto's training, when he is in a complete state of calm, and when he has Natural energy on his body, birds approach him. It's shown with his sage clones: https://i.imgur.com/Ey08POT.jpg Since Natural energy is collected from the atmosphere, and every living being has it IIRC Kyuubi said something like that. There is also another foreshadowing about Jugo's sage abilities during Kabuto vs Brothers: https://i.imgur.com/vmaNEc2.jpg The cursed seal was Natural energy, due to Orochimaru combining his Senjutsu chakra into the mutative enzymes he isolated from Jūgo's blood. This is also another reason why Orochimaru wanted a great host body like Sasuke's to be able to properly use Sage mode. White it has natural energy, I don't think it has enough without Jugo's infusing Sasuke's body, and it wouldn't turn into any kind of statue in the first place, the imperfect balance to Jugo, means losing control, unlike the Frog statue with Naruto. That's because Jugo infused his own chakra and Natural energy into Sasuke from what I remember, he was behind him, I remember the scene explaining it well. |
tsudecimoMar 3, 2015 9:09 AM
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| I do want to clarify that anything that I do post I'm not completely claiming they are without a doubt plot holes. Somebody had some long one about the timeline with Orochimaru being in the village and Akatsuki and meeting Itachi. Anyone have that? I thought it was a literal rule that you turn into a frog statue if you aren't able to use natural chakra, that's what was told to us(nothing about other sages or uses). How is frog sage mode different than any other sage mode? All he did was absorb the natural chakra which is said to be in the air and then mold it with his own chakra, does he only absorb the frog natural chakra from the air or world or whatever? If there are different sage modes(which it wasn't even established how he did a frog one) wouldn't the change be in the body while he's molding it? And yes after a rewatch I see that the pain absorbed the chakra from Naruto so one part of my post was addressed. To absorb natural energy while moving and not turn into any animal or stone. Quite convenient. And yes that is interesting. I think it had enough natural energy to be able to turn him into stone, he got a power boost large enough to fight Naruto with his kyuubi cloak. And it was already established that losing control with natural energy means you turn into stone, you shouldn't just be able to go out of control instead. And this is why I don't like plot hole discussions, so many little half explanations that people can use, it's too hard to prove a plot hole unless the facts were confirmed in the story like with Naruto failing multiple times. I don't remember the scene explaining it well. I can already tell I probably won't be posting in this thread again. Long posts incoming. |
IntroverTurtleMar 3, 2015 11:19 AM
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
| Spoiler due to length. I didn't reply to certain points, either because I thought they were dumb, and I didn't care for them, or because they required more time to answer (i.e Kakashi's age issue) I thought it was a literal rule that you turn into a frog statue if you aren't able to use natural chakra, that's what was told to us(nothing about other sages or uses). How is frog sage mode different than any other sage mode? All he did was absorb the natural chakra which is said to be in the air and then mold it with his own chakra, does he only absorb the frog natural chakra from the air or world or whatever? If there are different sage modes(which it wasn't even established how he did a frog one) wouldn't the change be in the body while he's molding it? First of all, Kabuto is an example of another sage mode, the snake/dragon one. Secondly, since it's changes their appearence intor frogs/snakes it goes without saying, why a frog statue happens only for frog sage mode, it's most likely relevant to the contract, Naruto wouldn't have been able to use sage mode without being in contract with the frogs, it's their teachings, and tech. I think it had enough natural energy to be able to turn him into stone, he got a power boost large enough to fight Naruto with his kyuubi cloak. And it was already established that losing control with natural energy means you turn into stone, you shouldn't just be able to go out of control instead. And this is why I don't like plot hole discussions, so many little half explanations that people can use, it's too hard to prove a plot hole unless the facts were confirmed in the story like with Naruto failing multiple times. [/quote]can already tell I probably won't be posting in this thread again. Long posts incoming. Like I said..Jugo's state of impalance is different, so he wouldn't turn into a snake or a frog or a stone or w/e. Tsk. It was already stated how the state of impalance in Jugo appears like, in which he loses control. He is inherently different than a normal sage mode as it's a special ability to his clan, and not normal sage mode, I don't understand how is that even remotely hard to gasp. You keep sticking to the stone thing, even though it's a different context. Absorbing Natural energy from a Sage mode differs, from Jugo's, differs to the Juubi.. Well this just leaves a bad taste on my mouth, replying to all of this, when some of them weren't even yours, and some are quite clearly obvious and easy to search for. Yeah better not post again, when I said plot hole discussion, I mean stuff, that can be easily proven right or wrong, by clear contradictions or impossible events, not stuff like why x happened. This is the second time, where I replied to all of your 'notes' Do you multitask while re-watching? because I can't think of a reason, why some of these flew over your head. Oh well. |
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| Opening post updated a little. I'm trying to think of famous misconceptions, but they are generally in the manga. |
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| Already told you before, that I don't want to share them. One of them is more known, being that there is a timeline inconsistency with Itachi/Orochimaru. I haven't looked into that one anyway, but the other one I did, and at the time, I came to the conclusion that it'e a legit recton. |
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| Yeah, it doesn't matter. But for some reason, it along with the Naruto repeat thing, and Kakashi age, people seem to care a lot about them, even though they barely affect the story. |
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| I apologize if this had been involved in any post in here, goddamn it they are some huge wallies, too lazy to read through them. http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/8/63-602.0/compressed/t007.jpg Right middle panel. Madara says Obito slipped through the rocks, or rather "almost as if you slipped", is the MS translation but MP translates it merely as "you slipped". So both of these would lead me to believe Obito used Kamui, unconsciously (?), to slip through the rocks? |
-Klad- said: I apologize if this had been involved in any post in here, goddamn it they are some huge wallies, too lazy to read through them. http://z.mfcdn.net/store/manga/8/63-602.0/compressed/t007.jpg Right middle panel. Madara says Obito slipped through the rocks, or rather "almost as if you slipped", is the MS translation but MP translates it merely as "you slipped". So both of these would lead me to believe Obito used Kamui, unconsciously (?), to slip through the rocks? No, he just survived through the rocks, and ended up in one of Madara's tunnel. It's pure chance and luck, that he survived and ended up with Madara. Nothing in the series, hints, that a mangekyo ability can happen, before it awakens. |
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| Opening post updated. |
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| The problem with the Great Snake Escape is the speed with which Sasuke was capable of perfoming it though. It is not a plot hole for the reasons you mentioned but you didn't explain how it was not a DEM. In one panel, we saw the explosion had already begun with Sasuke still on the ground but in the next he had summoned the manda which means he carried out the handsigns with a speed we were never shown him (or any other ninja of his level) to be capable of. Btw, I think you should also add the definitions of Asspull (and DEM) in you opening post since this thread isn't limited to plot holes. |
Agafin said: The problem with the Great Snake Escape is the speed with which Sasuke was capable of perfoming it though. It is not a plot hole for the reasons you mentioned but you didn't explain how it was not a DEM. In one panel, we saw the explosion had already begun with Sasuke still on the ground but in the next he had summoned the manda which means he carried out the handsigns with a speed we were never shown him (or any other ninja of his level) to be capable of. Btw, I think you should also add the definitions of Asspull (and DEM) in you opening post since this thread isn't limited to plot holes. I did prove why it wasn't an asspull as well, and since it's not an asspull, it can't be a DEM. He also referenced Manda as being another possible trick here: https://i.imgur.com/kYwkYWq.jpg Which fits very well, with the fact, that Sugitesu already had a Snake scroll and said ''he really did it''. Which means Manda was an option from the get go. Ergo this was neither a plot hole, nor an asspull. In regards to the speed. Actually, it's proven that you can make seals this fast in the same fight. https://i.imgur.com/bcGWdyM.jpg As you can see, Deidara was adding the Earth hand seal all this time, fast enough that and only a sharingan user can notice it, Sasuke being that close to Deidara was all played for suspense, and to trick the audience that Sasuke actually died, especially when Karin tries to sense him, but couldn't. I did add the definition of asspull. Didn't add DEM, because I didn't think it was necessary, since it's just a more specific type of asspull. |
tsudecimoMar 6, 2015 5:24 AM
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Isterio said: I thought asspull was just a more assholish way of saying Deus Ex machina, aka a badly used Deus ex machina. Not exactly. All DEM are asspulls but not all asspulls are DEM. DEM is more specific, it's used when it concerns the protagonist of the story being cornered, and a plot device without foreshadowing (an asspull) changes it to a happy outcome for him, or changing it into his favor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina |
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| Well that part from the definition is subjective, as it depends on each person, on how much foreshadowing/planning is needed. I think that asspulls, are 'bad writing' only when they exist for the sake of one situation and nothing else, like they don't serve any purpose. Rinne Tensi for example, might not have had the best foreshadowing, but in the end, it has a purpose beyond the first situation it's used in, with Madara and Tobi later on (even it's seals were relevant later on), so I don't consider it, 'bad writing' even if it's foreshadowing wasn't sufficient. |
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tsudecimo said: You can't really use a feat used during the same fight as a proof that Sasuke can be that fast though. I don't really think what Deidara did is in the same order of magnitude as Sasuke but even if I were to, then that would be just be late/bad foreshadowing. Well, I'll settle with there being insufficient foreshadowing.________________________________________________________________________ Next: Izanagi. I don't recall it being foreshadowed and it was very convenient for Itachi at that moment. |
| This is not something that is 'foreshadowed'. It's not a special ability, it's something established with Hand Seals in the series. Component and high skilled ninja can also shorten the number of seals required (i.e a certain water jutsu requires 44 seals, but the second Hokage can do it with one or two hand seals). But fine, here is an example of it happening earlier on.  That's like 6 seals per half or more. Summoning jutsu usually requires 8 or 6 IIRC. Thing about Izangi and Izanami is that they are the same as Ametarsu, and Susanoo. They are all deeply rooted with the Japanese mythology motif the series has. Some fans explaining the meanings: And also, since you probably mean Izanami with Itachi against Kubto. Itachi is a mysterious character, who is known to be extremely high skilled with a lot of great doujutsu, we didn't follow him through his life, so him showing a jutsu is not that surprising, and can't really be an asspull, sure if a character like Naruto, Sauske did that, it's a real asspull because the story focuses on them, and then there is no room for them to have a jutsu and it stays hidden from the viewer/reader. |
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| Opening post updated, also wondering if someone has something to add. |
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| ^Interesting. Guess we can conclude now that Naruto is your favourite series. At least that's cleared up. OT: In line with what Agafin said, the anime definitely portrays the whole Manda fiasco as an asspull (just like another manga/anime difference in another anime). Just gave it another cursory watch on Youtube. |
RedRoseFringMar 25, 2015 10:05 AM
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| I have one that could use clearing up. To perform the edo tensei to bring back the Hokage, Orochimaru used white Zetsu clones, but how can clones be used to substitute for actual humans? Do each individual Zetsu count as a human? Not to mention that is technically creating life. |
RedRoseFringMar 25, 2015 1:14 PM
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
tsudecimo said: Or you didn't know how to answer them so you stick with the few you did while saying "why didn't you get all of these" to try and make it seem like all of them were obvious because why can't someone remember everything from a 500+ episode series.Spoiler due to length. I didn't reply to certain points, either because I thought they were dumb, and I didn't care for them, or because they required more time to answer (i.e Kakashi's age issue) tsudecimo said: Too late, RRF made me interested about this thread. Glad to know you're still grasping at any straw you can see and have a sharp tounge though.Yeah better not post again |
IntroverTurtleMar 29, 2015 1:35 PM
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
RedRoseFring said: I have one that could use clearing up. To perform the edo tensei to bring back the Hokage, Orochimaru used white Zetsu clones, but how can clones be used to substitute for actual humans? Do each individual Zetsu count as a human? Not to mention that is technically creating life. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| I think Sasuke meant that he is familiar with Naruto enough that he can distinguish him. Therw also the line he said to him about what happens when two strong opponents fight, something about their fist, I forgot the actual phrase. |
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| In filler plot holes, I think in Chikara filler arc, Kabuto Edo Tensi Hidan, which contradicts the rules of Edo Tensi. |
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RedRoseFring said: RedRoseFring said: I have one that could use clearing up. To perform the edo tensei to bring back the Hokage, Orochimaru used white Zetsu clones, but how can clones be used to substitute for actual humans? Do each individual Zetsu count as a human? Not to mention that is technically creating life. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
tsudecimo said: IntroverTurtle said: Only Shippuden or including Naruto too? All. Till the latest episode, except fillers. I don't care for the Naruto repeat thing, but it will be posted anyway Is the movie "Naruto The Last" also included? If yes, then I want to know "How The F." Naruto uses (imperfect) Kage Bunshin to try to save Hinata from the bullies when they were young ??? He only learns it years later, from the stolen scroll.... |
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| I might've found one. When tobi explained to sasuke about itachi, uchiha etc. it was shown that he was going blind by overusing the mangakyo, and then he took his brothers eye out, while later in the war arc they showed that madaras brother was cut and he gave his eye to him. In the first part madara was on the bed while his brother next to him, later his brother was on the bed and he was next. Is this a mistake or? |
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