Puella Magi Madoka Magica
| I suspected that this supposed inspiration from Faust is either fans trying to make this series look smarter than it really is or Urobuchi’s complete lack of understanding Faust. It turns out it was the former. The similarities in situations (entering into a contract) are only superficial and there are no thematic similarities, nor is there a polemic with Faust’s themes. It all makes perfect sense now. |
Lain666Nov 20, 2014 12:52 AM
| "The moment one sits down to think, one becomes all nose, or all forehead, or something horrid. Look at the successful men in any of the learned professions. How perfectly hideous they are! Except, of course, in the Church. But then in the Church they don't think. A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say when he was a boy of eighteen, and as a natural consequence he always looks absolutely delightful." |
Lain666 said: I suspected that this supposed inspiration from Faust is either fans trying to make this series look smarter than it really is or Urobuchi’s complete lack of understanding Faust. It turns out it was the former. The similarities in situations (entering into a contract) are only superficial and there are no thematic similarities, nor is there a polemic with Faust’s themes. I agree the similarities are limited, but they go a bit further than the presence of a contract. The fact that it's a contract in which the contracter "sells" their soul in exchange for pretty much unlimited power in the form of a wish, justifies the designers' insertion of the Faust quotes, in my opinion. Also, if I remember, Mephistopheles first appears in Goethe's Faust in the form of a stray poodle, which isn't that far from the stray cat-bunny Kyubey. To my mind it doesn't matter whether Urobuchi thought of it or not - this is an anime, which like all such endeavours is a joint enterprise, not the expression of an "individual genius". It does make me wonder, though, whether other similar references found their way in by the same kind of route. I'm thinking particularly of the mermaid appearance of Sayaka's witch, which many have seen as an allusion to Andersen's "Little Mermaid". Was that in Urobuchi's mind, or something contributed by other members of the team? I'd be curious to know, but I think it works well either way. |
| "Burn this sight into your minds. This is what it means to be a magical girl." |
| That they enter a contract and "sell" their soul is what I meant, but similarities end here. In all most famous works of literature Faust is an intelligent man who willingly does it for some benefit in an exchange. He knows from beginning the terms of the contract and enters it without hesitation and out of free will, not because he is desperate or naïve, but because of boredom, for desire of knowledge or career. Magical girls are unaware that they are selling their souls, except for Madoka, but Madoka doesn’t do it for entirely selfish reasons like Faust. I also don’t think comparing Kyubey to Mephistopheles makes sense. Mephistopheles has evil intentions and eventually becomes force of good. Kyubey has unarguably good intentions – wanting to save universe from death heat – only his means to an end are questionable, but trying to achieve something good while resorting to dubious means makes him Machiavellian character, not diabolical. |
Lain666Nov 23, 2014 12:57 AM
| "The moment one sits down to think, one becomes all nose, or all forehead, or something horrid. Look at the successful men in any of the learned professions. How perfectly hideous they are! Except, of course, in the Church. But then in the Church they don't think. A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say when he was a boy of eighteen, and as a natural consequence he always looks absolutely delightful." |
| Oh, I quite agree that the similarities are limited, and that's a good explanation of why! I'd add that Faust only makes sense within a Christian worldview, which Madoka doesn't have much to do with. I don't think an allusion has to work in every aspect to do its job, though: if Madoka were merely retelling Faust it would be a less interesting show (Faust itself would have been less interesting had Goethe simply retold Marlowe's Dr Faustus). In the context of the show, the Faust references are pushed hardest in Episode 2, when the graffiti quotations hint that the idealized MG life we see in Mami shouldn't be taken at face value, and that Kyubey may not be the reincarnation of Sailor Moon's Luna; and then again when we learn about the Soul Gems, when the Faust vibe adds to the horror of that revelation (at least for some of us). But thereafter the stories diverge. That little hatch in Kyubey's back is not a hellgate, and the sprinkle of Faustian witch names are more of an eldritch "flavour" than anything more structural. |
| "Burn this sight into your minds. This is what it means to be a magical girl." |
| I agree that retelling a story would not be interesting and about allusions, but many fans sound like simply having allusions to Faust makes Madoka great masterpiece. With this ridiculous idea I take issue. Goethe’s Faust is not masterpiece because there are allusions to Book of Job. The same can be said about Mann’s Doctor Faustus. It is more that how cleverly these writers use these allusions to establish their own themes. Of course, this is still just one of the things that makes Goethe’s Faust and Mann’s Doctor Faustus masterpieces. These books are great on multiple levels, while Madoka is only doing good job at plot level, with its decent build-up and foreshadowing events, doing this by alluding to Faust, even though it was superficial, was interesting, I admit that. However, as build-up and foreshadowing can be found in many good stories*, I don’t think the creators of Madoka do anything extraordinary. *for example: stories like Pandora Hearts, Mawaru Penguindrum etc. any good storyteller can do it. |
Lain666Nov 28, 2014 2:12 AM
| "The moment one sits down to think, one becomes all nose, or all forehead, or something horrid. Look at the successful men in any of the learned professions. How perfectly hideous they are! Except, of course, in the Church. But then in the Church they don't think. A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say when he was a boy of eighteen, and as a natural consequence he always looks absolutely delightful." |
RLinksoul said: Eroge. Gen Urobuchi's inspirations for the show were classic literature and porn games. Wonderful. Fate Stay Night is an eroge, and that's this year's biggest anime |
| I don't know much but most eroges have h-scenes only to sell. Compare F/SN (one of the most popular VNs in Japan ever) vs. Mahoyo (same author and company and set in the same universe as F/SN and other TM novels, didn't do so well) because one had h-scenes and the other didn't. And having read the novel I can tell you that the h-scenes are barely 5% of the whole thing. Being an eroge doesn't necessarily mean it's full of h-scenes. So this depends on which eroges inspired him. |
 |
| Not a big suprise,consdering he wrote some eroges himself. Saya No Uta is probably the most famous one. |
RLinksoul said: Eroge for that?Considering what I've read about the Fate series. Spoilers and general nightmare fuel below. I can definitely see why it'd be considered an eroge. Thats like calling any movie that mentions rape a porn movie. The actual h scenes are just there and are replaced by random scenes in the all ages version.Personally I dont know which version is worst. Unfortunately, labels are a must in our world so "a Vn that barely has H scenes" is a bit difficult to say compared to "eroge". |
ssjokgDec 2, 2014 8:56 AM
| Well it doesn't matter. We all know writers who want to write a VN usually add at least one of those awkward h-scenes so they can call it an eroge and sell lots. Of course that isn't always the case, but there's a reason VNs are often associated with "hentai games." |
|
More topics from this board
Poll: » Mahou Shoujo Madoka★Magica Episode 12 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )tsubasalover - Apr 21, 2011 |
1543 |
by Biisoo
»»
Apr 23, 3:47 PM |
|
Poll: » Mahou Shoujo Madoka★Magica Episode 11 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 )tsubasalover - Apr 21, 2011 |
229 |
by Biisoo
»»
Apr 15, 2:11 PM |
|
Poll: » Mahou Shoujo Madoka★Magica Episode 10 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )stevewiess01 - Mar 10, 2011 |
704 |
by Biisoo
»»
Apr 15, 1:41 PM |
|
Poll: » Mahou Shoujo Madoka★Magica Episode 8 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )stevewiess01 - Feb 24, 2011 |
627 |
by Biisoo
»»
Apr 15, 12:51 PM |
|
Poll: » Mahou Shoujo Madoka★Magica Episode 6 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )stevewiess01 - Feb 10, 2011 |
523 |
by Biisoo
»»
Apr 15, 11:18 AM |