What&#039;s wrong with Magic Association?

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May 2013

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wrenchbread said:
Copypasta'd from the wiki

So Satou just doesn't understand what he is writting about? Seems legit.

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Nov 12, 2014 1:31 AM

#4

PewPewPowa

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Feb 2011

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jakkubus said:

So Satou just doesn't understand what he is writting about? Seems legit.

its fiction.. The author knows exactly what he is writing about.

Nov 12, 2014 4:47 AM

#5

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696

PewPewPowa said:
its fiction.. The author knows exactly what he is writing about.

Of course he knows, but I doubt, that he understands. :P

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Dec 9, 2014 10:11 AM

#6

darkreaperix

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May 2014

505

What radiation?MB isn't radioactive,and the JSDF has his back,since it's an official order from the Defense ministry.

[spoiler]

The people from the ministry did explain it to various organizations/countries about it,that it's not a nuclear weapon,but magic.USNA reacted?yes they wanted to either recruit him (to defect to the USNA) or kill him if he refused (since he is a unregistered SC magician),weakening Japans military.This questions happen if you don't read the LN's properly and assume the author made a mistake or it's a major plothole,and still be forcing that assumption.The JSDF and the Yotsuba clan has enough power and influence to shut up anyone trying to inquire further.

darkreaperixDec 9, 2014 10:58 AM

Dec 9, 2014 8:54 PM

#7

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darkreaperix said:
and assume the author made a mistake or it's a major plothole,and still be forcing that assumption.

Ah, if not for viewer idiocy there would not be MAL. Doesn't matter what the author wrote, doesn't matter what the animation says, this is the pure domain of feeling, of "Facts be damned, I am offended so bow before me" drivel that it almost doesn't pay to point their juvenile whining out.

Dec 10, 2014 9:09 AM

#8

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696

Well, some Mahouka fans on MAL are interesting. Instead of talking about anime, they prefer to complain about other users.

And why isn't MB radioactive? It's releasing a lot of high frequency electromagnetic waves (like gamma radiation).

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Dec 11, 2014 12:25 PM

#9

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Mar 2014

103

I think the blast doesn't release any high frequency electromagnetic waves, these waves can only be made by a electromagnetic processes. And i think Decomposition Magic doesn't invole this kind of process. I believe Material burst just converts the mass into sheer energy.

This is how i think it works.

jakkubus said:
Well, some anime fans on MAL are interesting. Instead of talking about anime, they prefer to complain about other users.

Dec 11, 2014 2:52 PM

#10

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696

Technici said:
I believe Material burst just converts the mass into sheer energy.

IIRC nothing like sheer energy does exist. It's a bit like saying, that it converts matter into pure velocity or pure voltage. Even annihilation, which is total destruction of the matter, turns it into electromagnetic waves.

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Dec 11, 2014 4:45 PM

#11

wrenchbread

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>pure energy

HA.

http://www.askamathematician.com/2013/04/q-what-is-energy-what-is-pure-energy-like/

Dec 12, 2014 5:13 AM

#12

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Mar 2014

103

After rethinking.

I thought of a new theory. The spell material burst might work like anti matter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter

Quote " the end result of annihilation is a release of energy available to do work, proportional to the total matter and antimatter mass, in accord with the mass-energy equivalence equation, E=mc2."

And then compare it with the material burst. which turns matter into energy x the speed of light. You see a comparison with these two.

A man also asked a question what would happen when matter and anti mater colide, the answer given was this;

Whenever antimatter meets matter (assuming their particles are of the same type), then annihilation occurs, and energy is released. In this case, a 1 kg chunk of the earth would be annihilated , along with the meteorite. There would be energy released in the form of gamma radiation (probably).

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/30900/what-would-happen-after-the-collision-matter-and-the-anti-matter

So it might actually produce gamma ray's. But at the same time the spell might have a hidden mechanism that cancels out the radiation.

Dec 12, 2014 6:54 AM

#13

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May 2013

696

Technici said:
After rethinking.

I thought of a new theory. The spell material burst might work like anti matter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter

Quote " the end result of annihilation is a release of energy available to do work, proportional to the total matter and antimatter mass, in accord with the mass-energy equivalence equation, E=mc2."

And then compare it with the material burst. which turns matter into energy x the speed of light. You see a comparison with these two.

That's what I was saying. Antimatter + Matter => Annihilation

So it might actually produce gamma ray's. But at the same time the spell might have a hidden mechanism that cancels out the radiation.

Material Burst is powerful, but simple in its principle spell. It just releases energy stored in matter in form of electromagnetic radiation. So I don't think, that it have any hidden mechanism to cancel it out, becuase something like that would be out of Tatsuya's expertise. The easiest way to deal with gamma rays released by MB I could figure, would be

It could allow to lower waves frequency, but only when used simultaneously with MB and on significantly greater radius, which is pretty impossible.

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Dec 12, 2014 11:14 AM

#14

http://mahouka-koukou-no-rettousei.wikia.com/wiki/Material_Burst

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Even if that was possible, the LN didn't show us such team work.

And yet the spell doesn't make any radiation. Is it confirmed that matter + antimatter will send out a electromagnetic radiation.

Found a interesting answer:

Dec 12, 2014 3:15 PM

#15

http://mahouka-koukou-no-rettousei.wikia.com/wiki/Material_Burst

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696

Technici said:
Even if that was possible, the LN didn't show us such team work.

And yet the spell doesn't make any radiation. Is it confirmed that matter + antimatter will send out a electromagnetic radiation.

Found a interesting answer:

Well, second explanation seems better, but through I had a clue, that author forgot about radiation, I thought, that some LN fan will prove me wrong with quote from LN. Because, despite being weak at character and story development, Satou created interesting and consistent magic system.

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Dec 12, 2014 4:45 PM

#16

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jakkubus said:
but through I had a clue, that author forgot about radiation, I thought, that some LN fan will prove me wrong with quote from LN. Because, despite being weak at character and story development, Satou created interesting and consistent magic system.

And he is - the Wiki explanation given above was a paraphrase and missed the most important part.

In short: Material Burst emits radiation, however since this radiation dissipated almost immediately, it is not considered a "radiation emitting weapon" under the IMA's rules.

A couple of things: 1) I have found that Japanese works, even for kids, are almost always accurate or at least if not accurate then explained.
2) I would also be leery of putting blame on the writer unless I read the work in Japanese or I read a professional translation. I love fan subbers, but far more often than not the fault lies with their translation, not with the original.

A good example was the crust/mantle "mistake" in NGNL episode 6. Since in Japanese while the words sound exactly the same, they are written with different Kanji. The writer used the proper kanji, the translator did not notice.

Also the USNA reaction (in your original question) didn't have to do with the violation of the IMA rules, but rather they want to know who did it and either get them to defect or eliminate the threat. The reason why only the USNA sent people was because they were allies of Japan and had the ability to send an agent more or less openly.

Edit: I actually liked that Satou had this distinction, it is very much the "dog eat dog" philosophy that this world has. It's OKAY to kill people with radiation, just make sure that you don't make the land no longer suitable for occupation. The same logic as with the neutron bomb. How very governmental.

Takuan_SohoDec 12, 2014 5:11 PM

Dec 13, 2014 12:44 AM

#17

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Takuan_Soho said:

jakkubus said:
but through I had a clue, that author forgot about radiation, I thought, that some LN fan will prove me wrong with quote from LN. Because, despite being weak at character and story development, Satou created interesting and consistent magic system.

And he is - the Wiki explanation given above was a paraphrase and missed the most important part.

In short: Material Burst emits radiation, however since this radiation dissipated almost immediately, it is not considered a "radiation emitting weapon" under the IMA's rules.

But how it is dissipated? Is it described in better translations? Because completely dissipating that amount of radiation should be probably even more difficult, than mass-energy conversion itself.

A couple of things: 1) I have found that Japanese works, even for kids, are almost always accurate or at least if not accurate then explained.
2) I would also be leery of putting blame on the writer unless I read the work in Japanese or I read a professional translation. I love fan subbers, but far more often than not the fault lies with their translation, not with the original.

A good example was the crust/mantle "mistake" in NGNL episode 6. Since in Japanese while the words sound exactly the same, they are written with different Kanji. The writer used the proper kanji, the translator did not notice.

I am aware of mistranslations and that's why I asked here, if it was explained in LN or other translations.

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Dec 13, 2014 9:00 AM

#18

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jakkubus said:
But how it is dissipated? Is it described in better translations? Because completely dissipating that amount of radiation should be probably even more difficult, than mass-energy conversion itself.

Most of it would have dissipated naturally: to illustrate, think of a nuclear bomb. The light (a form of radiation) would expand outwards and dissipate in minutes; likewise the heat, it would take longer, but still would eventually dissipate relatively quickly. Neither though would fall into the classification that the IMA uses.

I am no physicist, but I do know that different types of reactions produce different effects. A fission explosion produces all those nasty byproducts that have those really long half-lives measured in hundreds or thousands (that are the contaminators that the IMA deals with), but with fusion the byproducts decay much faster (in weeks to years). With that in mind let me quote what Tatsuya did:

That "no loss of energy" is what I think the key. With the direct conversion of matter to energy, there would be nothing remaining to created any byproducts. In short the conversion doesn't create enough ionizing radiation to result in contamination (or what contamination there was would naturally decay fast enough). The pure conversion consumed itself.

I would have to go back to see if this was explained any better elsewhere, but that the writer created a restrictive definition for the IMA pretty much shows he was thinking of this.

Dec 13, 2014 1:07 PM

#19

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Hey jakkubus, a bit off subject but have you read the manga version? Madhouse should have hired the person who did the composition to do the scenario writing for the animation. My main complaint with the series was that I thought Madhouse did a bad job at scenario writing for the series, the person in charge of this for the manga is far superior. It's an interesting study in how to take the exact same information and tell it differently.

Better understanding of how to start a series with maximum interest, better choice of words, and above all better understanding of characterization and differentiating them. Only read 3 issues, but the superiority is clearly evident.

Dec 13, 2014 2:51 PM

#20

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Takuan_Soho said:

Most of it would have dissipated naturally: to illustrate, think of a nuclear bomb. The light (a form of radiation) would expand outwards and dissipate in minutes; likewise the heat, it would take longer, but still would eventually dissipate relatively quickly. Neither though would fall into the classification that the IMA uses.

Wouldn't humans be effected by the radiation? Or was it told there were no survivors from this spell. Even so the radiation should be measurable from the ground, water and other living creatures.

To be honest i think the spell also helps, to dissipate the radiation and heat.

Dec 13, 2014 3:55 PM

#21

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Technici said:
Wouldn't humans be effected by the radiation? Or was it told there were no survivors from this spell. Even so the radiation should be measurable from the ground, water and other living creatures.

To be honest i think the spell also helps, to dissipate the radiation and heat.

Perhaps, but I don't think that the writer explained it that way, and that is Jakkubus's point. If that is what happened, then the writer should have explained it.

But the writer said something different, that it was the contamination that was bad, not the radiation being released. So the question isn't whether radiation was released, but rather what kind of radiation was released and what kind of residual it left behind. This is why I think he meant something different. Had he been completely ignorant that Mass converted to Energy creates radiation he wouldn't have thought to include the line, that he included shows that he has thought about it.

Fission is bad because it takes uranium and plutonium and splits off some of the electrons and neutrons making isotopes that are radioactive.

Fusion is bad because it does the same thing, but creates far less toxic elements.

Pure matter conversion though is something very different. All the protons, neutrons, and electrons are consumed in the initial action, so there would be nothing left to form radioactive isotopes. So all you would have is the thermal wave which would kill everyone and everything, but once the wave passed and the heat dissipated nothing would be left behind (literally nothing, all plants and animals in the range would have died - this is why it was called "scorched Halloween" - everything was burnt, but after the fire, life would soon recover.

Edit: god knows I am not a physicist, so anyone who is kindly correct me!

Dec 13, 2014 4:26 PM

#22

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Mar 2014

103

This guy might be right, found at the wiki of material burst. The writer might just have been lazy and didn't want to venture into the unknown.

ROFL @ the post that said "no particles = no radiation" - light itself can be ionizing radiation. For example, the sun emits high frequency UV light which can cause mutations in your DNA and give you skin cancer. So no, even if there aren't any particles, there is "radiation." What you're thinking about are unstable isotopes and particles that become stable by release high frequency photons. That's true, but that's not the only way radiation is produced.

To the original poster: What you wrote is exactly what I thought when Material Burst was first described. Normal mass to energy conversion ends up releasing high energy photons such as gamma rays, X-rays, and high energy UV which are all classified as ionizing radiation. My guess is that the author was so intent on differentiating the a mass-to-energy conversion and a nuclear reaction (i.e. unlike a nuclear reaction, no radiating particles and isotopes are the direct byproducts of a mass-to-energy conversation) that he forgot that radiation occurs during a high energy explosions no matter what the source of energy.

Anyway, within the context of the story though, there are probably two explanations to what you asked. Not sure if they will be acceptable for you though.

1. While we know that Tatsuya's Decomposition Magic is loosely related to the Dispersion (or Diffusion...if you prefer) Type Magic (one of the major types in the Four Great Systems of magic), it's not completely certain that dispersion or diffusion is the process in which the decomposition actually takes place. If he does decomposes matter purely through the process of dispersion, then yes, like you suggested, Tatsuya would first decompose matter into its constituent parts, then convert those subatomic particles into energy, and finally disperse that energy even further to prevent most of the energy from being released as gamma radiation. This seems highly unlikely because Material Burst seems to be a massive single process event.

2. Tatsuya has the ability to decompose matter to whatever extent he wishes. In this explanation, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for Tatsuya to input the variables in his magic process in a way that matter would only or mostly be converted to non-ionizing radiation (low-energy UV, visible light, infrared, and microwaves) are released.

TechniciDec 13, 2014 4:30 PM

Dec 14, 2014 12:12 PM

#23

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May 2013

696

Takuan_Soho said:
Hey jakkubus, a bit off subject but have you read the manga version? Madhouse should have hired the person who did the composition to do the scenario writing for the animation. My main complaint with the series was that I thought Madhouse did a bad job at scenario writing for the series, the person in charge of this for the manga is far superior. It's an interesting study in how to take the exact same information and tell it differently.

Better understanding of how to start a series with maximum interest, better choice of words, and above all better understanding of characterization and differentiating them. Only read 3 issues, but the superiority is clearly evident.

Well, I have read Nyuugaku Hen and it drawed me to the series (though I disliked final confrontation with Blanche, cause it was confusing), some chapters of Kyuukousen Hen (and dropped it, since it's IMO the worst story arc), Tsuioku Hen and Yuttosei (which is failed attempt of creating something like Railgun). Almost everything really seems to be explained better, but there is no really great difference.

Perhaps, but I don't think that the writer explained it that way, and that is Jakkubus's point. If that is what happened, then the writer should have explained it.

But the writer said something different, that it was the contamination that was bad, not the radiation being released. So the question isn't whether radiation was released, but rather what kind of radiation was released and what kind of residual it left behind. This is why I think he meant something different. Had he been completely ignorant that Mass converted to Energy creates radiation he wouldn't have thought to include the line, that he included shows that he has thought about it.

Fission is bad because it takes uranium and plutonium and splits off some of the electrons and neutrons making isotopes that are radioactive.

Fusion is bad because it does the same thing, but creates far less toxic elements.

Pure matter conversion though is something very different. All the protons, neutrons, and electrons are consumed in the initial action, so there would be nothing left to form radioactive isotopes. So all you would have is the thermal wave which would kill everyone and everything, but once the wave passed and the heat dissipated nothing would be left behind (literally nothing, all plants and animals in the range would have died - this is why it was called "scorched Halloween" - everything was burnt, but after the fire, life would soon recover.

Edit: god knows I am not a physicist, so anyone who is kindly correct me!

There may be the point. No radioactive materials left, so no (or small) contamination. Though that termal wave would be gamma radiation and life would hardly recover even without nuclear fallout.

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Dec 15, 2014 4:18 PM

#24

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jakkubus said:
Well, I have read Nyuugaku Hen and it drawed me to the series

Yeah, that was what I meant, haven't read the other ones. I am not saying it was revolutionary, it just did a far better job at pulling the viewer in (starting with Miyuki was important, I really disliked how the animation played down both her power and her ruthlessness) and explaining things that were skipped over in the animation (why Minami really got into Tatsuya, and how Tatsuya misled Mizuki so that she would misunderstand his aura (and that they asked the Shinobi about it). There was also a couple of nice additional touches (Erika asking Tatsuya to visit clubs with her because she felt left out because Mizuki and Leo already knew what they wanted).

But ultimately you are correct, Satou is not the best at characterization, he leaves them stranded for far too long before coming back to them. Also he relies FAR too much on the "we don't talk about magic" angle, the Yotsuba ability to "cover things up", and for the characters (and ultimately the reader) not to poke too much around in the details.

Jan 3, 2015 9:24 AM

#25

darkreaperix

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May 2014

505

@ jakkubus well it ain't as bad as wrenchbread telling that anyone that likes Mahouka have a mental disorder :p

Too lazy too look at the LN about the radiation,but my point about the magic association (or other countries) not investigating or doing anything about the "Scorched Halloween" incident was,it was answered in the next volume,leading to the Visitors arc and you and wrenchbread were laughing about the "plot hole",and he even tried to misdirect anime only viewers, by giving an incomplete explanation (I still don't get his major hatred for the series,I mean obscuring facts,right?)

Jan 8, 2015 1:43 AM

#26

Evilincarnate

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Jul 2009

285

@OP:
I think Takuan_Soho has got the right point & not the post describing 2 theories about the specs of "decomposition". The spell sublimates matter into energy. So all the radiation produced involves gamma radiations of various energy levels. This would "Scorch" the area of effect, but dissipate soon afterwards.
The radioactivity concern that banned the use of nukes in Mahouka universe is the same as in ours - The Fallout.
That includes the residual radiation caused by neutron emissions of existing nuclear weapons, thus the ban. Annihilation carries no such risk & thus Material Burst is the most perfect tactical weapon.
Also you use it against the enemies, if some of them end up dying of cancer in the future, you don't really care because in Mahouka & in the real world, in war you prioritize yourself & not your enemy or even morality for that matter.
I kinda like the Mahouka perspective where the world is fairly realistic in its value system & there are no idealistic themes &/or heroes to ruin the story. Everyone acts as they would in areal situation, driven by their personal beliefs of right & wrong & not some universal goal to save everyone. Its a different flavor when compared to most stories that have an idealistic feel to them (esp. when magic is involved)

Jan 8, 2015 12:31 PM

#27