Puella Magi Madoka Magica
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Oct 6, 2014 2:19 PM
#1
If you think that they are, please write with which character you are identifying with and why? If not, write why do you think those characters are not relatable and do you think that this is a bad thing? |
Oct 6, 2014 2:31 PM
#2
Not really. But I guess Madoka herself can be relatable, the same way Shinji and other timid weak MC's are. |
Oct 6, 2014 3:41 PM
#3
Homura is cool and grimderp and that's how I relate to her. |
And I mean that in the most sexually painful way possible. |
Oct 6, 2014 3:54 PM
#4
PriestJabon said: Damn, you beat me to itHomura is cool and grimderp and that's how I relate to her. |
FragOutFire said: Why am I a Berserk fan? All I ever experience is pain. We are in the eclipse and Miura has sacrificed us |
Oct 6, 2014 6:51 PM
#5
Not really, they're all too stale to relate to. |
Oct 6, 2014 6:53 PM
#8
Characters in Madoka Magica were the shows weakest part imo But I guess you could with Sayaka or Homura. Maybe. |
I envy your delusion; I wish I could live in it |
Oct 6, 2014 7:27 PM
#9
zenzen |
Oct 6, 2014 7:29 PM
#10
Huh. I found myself relating a lot to Homura and Sayaka. |
Oct 6, 2014 11:42 PM
#11
Everyone except Mami. |
Oct 7, 2014 12:15 AM
#12
Jazzy_Maz said: Not really, they're all too stale to relate to. In what way? All of them - exept Mami - have character arcs, meaning they changed during series. If you wish I could provide you an evidence to support this claim... |
Tachikoma1701Oct 7, 2014 2:02 AM
Oct 7, 2014 12:17 AM
#13
Who wouldn't want to nibble on some Mami? |
Oct 7, 2014 8:01 AM
#14
If "relatable" means not so much identification but "able to have feelings about them in the way that you would about real people" then, I find them all relatable. If it means identification, then I relate most to Sayaka, with her tendency to black-and-white thinking and her inability to compromise morally, shot through with moments of reflection and self-recognition (hey, I'm doing it now!). I'm not sure that I'm as kind as she is, though, or as idealistic - but I suspect I was when I was 14. |
"Burn this sight into your minds. This is what it means to be a magical girl." |
Oct 7, 2014 11:01 AM
#15
Nice, more votes please. :) And if we be nice to see more people justifying their opinion. |
Oct 7, 2014 11:22 AM
#16
I don't think they're relatable. In fact the show seems to rely on the fact that they're irrational fourteen year olds in order to justify their stupid decisions. Characterization isn't exactly Urobuchi's strong suit either way. Homura in particular is impossible to relate to, due to her complete lack of a character and the extremely out-there nature of her story. No one's gonna be like "Oh wow that reminds me of when I completely devoted my entire existence to a girl I met a month ago who said I had a cool name." |
Oct 7, 2014 11:46 AM
#17
FakePriest said: Everyone except Mami. ^ Although I liked her in the spin-off |
Oct 7, 2014 11:48 AM
#18
Not really. |
"Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
Oct 7, 2014 11:48 AM
#19
Most of us can connect with them on the surface. Their fear, emotional instability, and irrationality are all relatable facets of human behavior, especially during our adolescence. The problem with Madoka's characters isn't that they don't strive for realism, it's that they're neither fleshed out nor developed well. |
Oct 7, 2014 1:54 PM
#20
FakePriest said: Everyone except Mami. Pretty much this. RLinksoul said: "Oh wow that reminds me of when I completely devoted my entire existence to a girl I met a month ago who said I had a cool name." Let's ignore the parts when madoka saved homura's life twice and sacrificed herselft to protect her. |
Oct 7, 2014 3:06 PM
#21
RLinksoul said: I don't think they're relatable. In fact the show seems to rely on the fact that they're irrational fourteen year olds in order to justify their stupid decisions. Characterization isn't exactly Urobuchi's strong suit either way. Homura in particular is impossible to relate to, due to her complete lack of a character and the extremely out-there nature of her story. No one's gonna be like "Oh wow that reminds me of when I completely devoted my entire existence to a girl I met a month ago who said I had a cool name." I can't say that I agree with you, Homura definitely have personality. She was: initially: timid, sickly, with low self esteem, introverted and somewhat silly and eventually: smart, athletic, detached, self reliant, enigmatic, obsessive, resourceful, intelligent, knowledgeable about weapons, with strong attachment to person she loved. As for girls being stupid... I would rather say that they were somewhat naive, but not necessarily stupid. I was pleasantly surprised that they didn't made contracts right away - some external circumstances had to occur to convince them to take that step. PonPonPon said: Most of us can connect with them on the surface. Their fear, emotional instability, and irrationality are all relatable facets of human behavior, especially during our adolescence. The problem with Madoka's characters isn't that they don't strive for realism, it's that they're neither fleshed out nor developed well. Once again I must say that I disagree. All characters had unique personalities, backstories, different motivations, psychological depth, internal conflict and character arcs.That don't necessarily make them relatable, but is this necessarily a bad thing? Let's use co called Plinkett's Characterization Test: "Describe characters in anime without saying what they look like, what they wear, or what their profession or role in the work is." My short description of those characters: Madoka Kaname - naive, timid, a little insecure, soppy, kind-hearted, caring, helpful, always seeing the best in people, seemingly cowardly, in reality, able to make heroic and selfless decisions, she wants to have meaningful life. Sayaka Miki - tomboyish, brave, idealistic, stubborn, self righteous, protective, somewhat insecure, music lover, wants to be loved. Kyoko Sakura - tough girl, seemingly selfish and cynical, in reality jaded idealist traumatized by her past, gluttonous, seemingly lone wolf type in reality she wanted to have companion. Mami Tomoe - warm, mentor like personality, experienced, heroic, seemingly confident in reality somewhat mentally unstable, she have fear of loneliness. Homura Akemi - initially: timid, sickly, with low self esteem, introverted, eventually: smart, athletic, detached, self reliant, enigmatic, obsessive, resourceful, knowledgeable about weapons. Wants to protect someone she loves. kyubey - intelligent, clever, emotionless, manipulative, consequentialist and utilitarian. |
Tachikoma1701Oct 7, 2014 3:18 PM
Oct 7, 2014 6:25 PM
#22
Tachikoma1701 said: Once again I must say that I disagree. All characters had unique personalities, backstories, different motivations, psychological depth, internal conflict and character arcs.That don't necessarily make them relatable, but is this necessarily a bad thing? Let's use co called Plinkett's Characterization Test: "Describe characters in anime without saying what they look like, what they wear, or what their profession or role in the work is." My short description of those characters: Madoka Kaname - naive, timid, a little insecure, soppy, kind-hearted, caring, helpful, always seeing the best in people, seemingly cowardly, in reality, able to make heroic and selfless decisions, she wants to have meaningful life. Sayaka Miki - tomboyish, brave, idealistic, stubborn, self righteous, protective, somewhat insecure, music lover, wants to be loved. Kyoko Sakura - tough girl, seemingly selfish and cynical, in reality jaded idealist traumatized by her past, gluttonous, seemingly lone wolf type in reality she wanted to have companion. Mami Tomoe - warm, mentor like personality, experienced, heroic, seemingly confident in reality somewhat mentally unstable, she have fear of loneliness. Homura Akemi - initially: timid, sickly, with low self esteem, introverted, eventually: smart, athletic, detached, self reliant, enigmatic, obsessive, resourceful, knowledgeable about weapons. Wants to protect someone she loves. kyubey - intelligent, clever, emotionless, manipulative, consequentialist and utilitarian. That's not depth, that's all just stale, basic stuff. There's nothing that makes any of these characters unique. |
Oct 7, 2014 11:33 PM
#23
Jazzy_Maz said: Tachikoma1701 said: Once again I must say that I disagree. All characters had unique personalities, backstories, different motivations, psychological depth, internal conflict and character arcs.That don't necessarily make them relatable, but is this necessarily a bad thing? Let's use co called Plinkett's Characterization Test: "Describe characters in anime without saying what they look like, what they wear, or what their profession or role in the work is." My short description of those characters: Madoka Kaname - naive, timid, a little insecure, soppy, kind-hearted, caring, helpful, always seeing the best in people, seemingly cowardly, in reality, able to make heroic and selfless decisions, she wants to have meaningful life. Sayaka Miki - tomboyish, brave, idealistic, stubborn, self righteous, protective, somewhat insecure, music lover, wants to be loved. Kyoko Sakura - tough girl, seemingly selfish and cynical, in reality jaded idealist traumatized by her past, gluttonous, seemingly lone wolf type in reality she wanted to have companion. Mami Tomoe - warm, mentor like personality, experienced, heroic, seemingly confident in reality somewhat mentally unstable, she have fear of loneliness. Homura Akemi - initially: timid, sickly, with low self esteem, introverted, eventually: smart, athletic, detached, self reliant, enigmatic, obsessive, resourceful, knowledgeable about weapons. Wants to protect someone she loves. kyubey - intelligent, clever, emotionless, manipulative, consequentialist and utilitarian. That's not depth, that's all just stale, basic stuff. There's nothing that makes any of these characters unique. Since when does uniqueness make something bad or good? It doesnt and people are really forcing themselves if they wait for something to be unique in order to like it. |
Oct 8, 2014 12:28 AM
#24
FakePriest said: Since when does uniqueness make something bad or good? It doesnt and people are really forcing themselves if they wait for something to be unique in order to like it. Agreed - and indeed since the question was about relatability, uniqueness in itself would probably be a disadvantage. Unless you can recognize some aspects of a character in yourself or those you know, then how can you "relate" to them? Uniqueness tends toward incomprehensibility. |
"Burn this sight into your minds. This is what it means to be a magical girl." |
Oct 8, 2014 12:29 AM
#25
FakePriest said: Since when does uniqueness make something bad or good? It doesnt and people are really forcing themselves if they wait for something to be unique in order to like it. I'm not sure if unique is the right word here. What I can say is that I don't really see the characters as fleshed out people. They feel more like they were given basic personalities and don't really evolve beyond that. Homura is not defined by anything except her association (or obsession) with Madoka. Seriously. Aside from her having been in the hospital for an unspecified condition, name one thing about her as a person in her own right, that doesn't involve Madoka. Mami's defining trait is her loneliness, and aside from having her life cruelly taken from her when she thinks that has ended, she doesn't get to grow or develop beyond that. Madoka is insecure and self-sacrificing and that's pretty much her entire character for a majority of the show. In fact I don't really see much of a change in her in the end, outside of going from crying and whimpering to boldly ordering Kyubey to grant her wish at the drop of a hat. You can't really say she gained the courage to throw her life on the line since she's been willing to do that since episode 5. It's more about her being forced to stand on the sidelines, watching everyone else suffer until she can make the right wish in the end (and until Homura's leg is broken). tbh I think that's kind of bad, narrative wise. In any other magical girl show, gaining her powers is the start of her progression as a character, not the climax. They grow and mature through their lives both magical and mundane, particularly learning that you don't need magic in order to do wonderful things. To look at Usagi of Sailor Moon, she starts out too scared to really do much, and it's through the hardships she endures and the support of her teammates that she gains the strength and courage to stand and fight even when death seems like a certainty. Madoka on the other hand is only spending 90% of the show crying on the sidelines because she's forced to. When she becomes a magical girl (as seen in episode 10) she feels like a completely different person, strong, fearless, confident. She's already ready to become a magical girl simply because she wants to feel useful to others. She also had the potential to do virtually anything, the only roadblock aside from Homura is having to wait until she had all of the information. It feels like the only thing separating Madoka from episode 1 from what she was in episode 10 and 12 is becoming a magical girl. Some people say they're purposely given very basic personalities to show how stereotypical characters react to a deconstructed version of the works they're typically in, but that comes back to the whole "is this show a deconstruction or not?" debate and I really don't care to get into that. That wouldn't be a good enough excuse for characters to feel like one dimensional set-pieces to get knocked around. |
Oct 8, 2014 12:37 AM
#26
RLinksoul said: Madoka I dont know why your dislike of the series (as I remember because it doesnt treat the girls like other MS series)makes you unable to see that Madoka actually tries to help during the series. I mean you even mention that in your own pots abut 3 paragraphs later you ignore it? |
Oct 8, 2014 12:41 AM
#27
FakePriest said: RLinksoul said: Madoka I dont know why your dislike of the series (as I remember because it doesnt treat the girls like other MS series)makes you unable to see that Madoka actually tries to help during the series. I mean you even mention that in your own pots abut 3 paragraphs later you ignore it? Did I ignore it? I thought I made it clear that she does try to help. As early as episode 5 she's willing to step in and make the contract. The two problems with this being that Homura is constantly trying to stop her, and that she doesn't know exactly how deep she'd be getting into. So it's not a matter of her being too scared to have an active role as the protagonist, as simply the show won't let her because she needs to become one at the very end. |
Oct 8, 2014 12:52 AM
#28
There is nothing about Homura beyond Madoka, Madoka, Madoka, Madoka, Madoka, Madoka, Madoka, Madoka, Madoka, etc... But people stll keep saying she has personality. Sayaka is most decent among them, and someone who truly grown as a character. |
Oct 8, 2014 6:38 AM
#29
Jazzy_Maz said: That's not depth, that's all just stale, basic stuff. There's nothing that makes any of these characters unique. Why? Because you said so? Sorry, but you have to provide an evidence to backup your claim, if not then those claims are not holding and water. And depth come from conflict between conscious and subconscious wishes, between selfless and selfish impulses; the fact that girls seemingly wanted something, when in reality they wanted something else, or they wanted something but they didn't realize why they really wanted it, they didn't knew they real motivation behind their wishes. And I guess that I should rather use word: "distinct" personalities to describe them - I just meant that they are different from one another, not that there aren't people like them in fiction, that is to big claim to make, my bad. RLinksoul said: I'm not sure if unique is the right word here. What I can say is that I don't really see the characters as fleshed out people. They feel more like they were given basic personalities and don't really evolve beyond that. I can't say that I agree with you. As I mentioned earlier their personalities did evolved and changed during a course of the series. Take your "favorite" character, Homura for exemple; firstly she was weak, insecure, introverted gir who couldn't relate and bond with to anyone, when she meet Madoka, and when Madoka saved her life, she did indeed bonded with her. Then she lost her and made her wish; seemingly selfless one, made for the sake of Kaname, in reality, on subconscious level, made for selfish reason: she didn't want to lose her only friend. As a consequence of that wish, in time, she become obsessive, cold, detached but also kind of badass - she lost some of her humanity but become more confident. The only thing that old, pre-Madoka, Homura had in common with her new and improved self was tendency for introvertism. In the end, after Madoka made her wish, Homura again evolved; she didn't lost her confidence but at the same time she become person who could work and interact with people... So, you can't really say that she didn't evolved during the course of series, as well you can't say that she didn't have any depth because her wish and therefore her psyche was layered. RLinksoul said: Homura is not defined by anything except her association (or obsession) with Madoka. Seriously. Aside from her having been in the hospital for an unspecified condition, name one thing about her as a person in her own right, that doesn't involve Madoka. I'm afraid that you are confusing character's motivation with character traits. As I proven above, Homura - both pre and post-Madoka - had distinct personality. Now, post-Madoka, Homura had changed and evolved thanks to meeting miss Kaname, but that doesn't change the fact that she had distinct character traits. Madoka was a cause for Akemi's character growth, but that doesn't negate the fact that you could say who Homura was. In this case Madoka was a cause, and Homura's character traits were the effect. I don't know what is your problem with this? Sure, without Madoka, Akemi wouldn't become person she was, but what's wrong with that? For example; who would be the Batman, without dead parents? Only boring Bruce Wayne... Now, in the eyes of many Batman is one of them most fascinating and psychologically complex comic book characters ever created, and he definitely have distinct personality. So does Homura. How is this diminished by the fact that both of those characters were shaped by the death of closest person? RLinksoul said: Mami's defining trait is her loneliness, and aside from having her life cruelly taken from her when she thinks that has ended, she doesn't get to grow or develop beyond that. On the facte of it - yes. I somewhat agree with you. In the series Mami is mostly a glorified redshirt, with only a hints of personal tragedy. But it's also worth noticing that Tomoe had also other character trait; she is emotionally unstable, unable to face reality. On the face of it she is level-headed mentor character but when you scratch the surface, you will see that she have serious mental issues - and her breaking down in tears in front of Madoka in episode 3 and subsequently losing concentration during her confrontation with Charlotte, as well her going bonkers in episode 10 proves that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFW2wRKI1Cs But yes, authors did better job with this character in manga spin-off: "Different story". RLinksoul said: Madoka is insecure and self-sacrificing and that's pretty much her entire character for a majority of the show. In fact I don't really see much of a change in her in the end, outside of going from crying and whimpering to boldly ordering Kyubey to grant her wish at the drop of a hat. You can't really say she gained the courage to throw her life on the line since she's been willing to do that since episode 5. It's more about her being forced to stand on the sidelines, watching everyone else suffer until she can make the right wish in the end (and until Homura's leg is broken). Once again I can't entirely agree with you. You see, the point of Madoka character is that she is seemingly selfless. Sure, she want to help others, but why she is doing it? Because she want to have meaningful life - she said that multiple times. She had two role models; her mother, Junko; successful businesswoman and Mami; a superheroine. Madoka herself never could live up to their standards, so what she is doing in the end? She is for all intents and purposes, she abandoned her family just to be important. I don't say that she is doing this consciously, but this desire is definitely there. RLinksoul said: tbh I think that's kind of bad, narrative wise. In any other magical girl show, gaining her powers is the start of her progression as a character, not the climax. They grow and mature through their lives both magical and mundane, particularly learning that you don't need magic in order to do wonderful things. Quite the contrary - that's very good twist. It's new, refreshing and unique take on the genre. C'mon; how many stories we have, about standard, boring as dirt, campbellian hero's journey? Lather, rinse, repeat... Madoka's story presented new take on this tired old story, so you hate it for it? Really? RLinksoul said: To look at Usagi of Sailor Moon, she starts out too scared to really do much, and it's through the hardships she endures and the support of her teammates that she gains the strength and courage to stand and fight even when death seems like a certainty. I don't want to offend you but IMO "Sailor Moon" is one of the worst thing that ever come from Japan, and the reason for that is how formulaic and repetitive this show really is. Madoka broken new ground, so I think that you should at least give her credit for that. RLinksoul said: Some people say they're purposely given very basic personalities to show how stereotypical characters react to a deconstructed version of the works they're typically in, but that comes back to the whole "is this show a deconstruction or not?" debate and I really don't care to get into that. That wouldn't be a good enough excuse for characters to feel like one dimensional set-pieces to get knocked around. But I disagree that they are set pieces; quite the contrary - their wishes and therefore personalities, drive the story, not the other way around; it's character driven story. At the big part of it is the fact that characters are only seemingly archetypical, but in reality they are more than meets the eye; since they indeed have layers and they changed during the course of the story. And sure those girls are there to deconstruct certain character types and certain tropes, but that's a good thing, don't you think? |
Oct 8, 2014 8:30 AM
#30
Tachikoma1701 said: Jazzy_Maz said: That's not depth, that's all just stale, basic stuff. There's nothing that makes any of these characters unique. Why? Because you said so? Sorry, but you have to provide an evidence to backup your claim, if not then those claims are not holding and water. And depth come from conflict between conscious and subconscious wishes, between selfless and selfish impulses; the fact that girls seemingly wanted something, when in reality they wanted something else, or they wanted something but they didn't realize why they really wanted it, they didn't knew they real motivation behind their wishes. And I guess that I should rather use word: "distinct" personalities to describe them - I just meant that they are different from one another, not that there aren't people like them in fiction, that is to big claim to make, my bad. "Because I said so" would imply that I find it to be objective truth, when rather it's just my opinion. The only two characters I actually found to have some solid development were Kyoko and Sayaka. Their character arcs, to me, just seemed to have a much broader implication, whereas Homura's and Madoka's arcs just seemed stale. I felt like Homura's overall goal in saving Madoka needed more explanation to justify what she was doing, and Madoka's development felt forced when it really started to hit in the last few episodes. I think it's a series that suffers greatly from the amount of time it had. I think if it had even just a couple more episodes to flesh out characters more, my opinion on it would be way more positive. I have a difficult time commenting on Mami, she was just sort of there and gone as the sort of senpai figure, for lack of a better term. I respect her place in the story but I don't feel like there was enough fleshing out of her place in the story. |
Oct 8, 2014 9:26 AM
#31
Jazzy_Maz said: "Because I said so" would imply that I find it to be objective truth, when rather it's just my opinion. The only two characters I actually found to have some solid development were Kyoko and Sayaka. Their character arcs, to me, just seemed to have a much broader implication, whereas Homura's and Madoka's arcs just seemed stale. I felt like Homura's overall goal in saving Madoka needed more explanation to justify what she was doing, and Madoka's development felt forced when it really started to hit in the last few episodes. I think it's a series that suffers greatly from the amount of time it had. I think if it had even just a couple more episodes to flesh out characters more, my opinion on it would be way more positive. I have a difficult time commenting on Mami, she was just sort of there and gone as the sort of senpai figure, for lack of a better term. I respect her place in the story but I don't feel like there was enough fleshing out of her place in the story. Now, I understand what you are saying a lot better, but still... I don't knew what you mean by saying that Homura's arc seemed stale when I proven that in fact Akemi did changed a lot during course of the series. Practically only thing that this Homura: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTKgR97x-To have in common with this Homura: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1k_f5rI3xY is that they both were very introverted. But this also, somewhat changed in TV show finale, when Akemi become more open to other people; she could cooperate with other Puella Magi, and she could have friendly discussion with Madoka's mother: http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130923023848/anime-fanon/images/8/89/Puella_magi_madoka_magica-12-homura-ribbons.jpg As for show's length... I have two minds about it. On the one hand I kind of agree with you that some characters - like Mami - could gain more depth if series was a a little bit longer - for exemple it would be nice to know what happened with Mami's and Homura's parents, why they are living alone, how can they afford those nice apartments, why teen girls are living alone and none one sims to care about it? Is this normal in Japan? Anyway, it would be nice to knew those things. Only thing that we knew about Homura's past is that she was attend to private Catholic school in Tokyo. I admit that's not a big backstory. It would be nice to know that things. But on the other hand... series was very focused. There wasn't any filer or unnecessary scenes, every episode contributed something to overall plot. In fact you can watch series in it's entirety, in one sitting, like one, long movie. Authors said what they had to say, and they knew where to stop. And that's something I respect. |
Oct 8, 2014 9:51 AM
#32
Jazzy_Maz said: Then you should have paid more attention.Tachikoma1701 said: Jazzy_Maz said: That's not depth, that's all just stale, basic stuff. There's nothing that makes any of these characters unique. Why? Because you said so? Sorry, but you have to provide an evidence to backup your claim, if not then those claims are not holding and water. And depth come from conflict between conscious and subconscious wishes, between selfless and selfish impulses; the fact that girls seemingly wanted something, when in reality they wanted something else, or they wanted something but they didn't realize why they really wanted it, they didn't knew they real motivation behind their wishes. And I guess that I should rather use word: "distinct" personalities to describe them - I just meant that they are different from one another, not that there aren't people like them in fiction, that is to big claim to make, my bad. "Because I said so" would imply that I find it to be objective truth, when rather it's just my opinion. The only two characters I actually found to have some solid development were Kyoko and Sayaka. Their character arcs, to me, just seemed to have a much broader implication, whereas Homura's and Madoka's arcs just seemed stale. I felt like Homura's overall goal in saving Madoka needed more explanation to justify what she was doing, and Madoka's development felt forced when it really started to hit in the last few episodes. I think it's a series that suffers greatly from the amount of time it had. I think if it had even just a couple more episodes to flesh out characters more, my opinion on it would be way more positive. I have a difficult time commenting on Mami, she was just sort of there and gone as the sort of senpai figure, for lack of a better term. I respect her place in the story but I don't feel like there was enough fleshing out of her place in the story. |
Oct 8, 2014 10:17 AM
#33
Tachikoma1701 said: Now, I understand what you are saying a lot better, but still... I don't knew what you mean by saying that Homura's arc seemed stale when I proven that in fact Akemi did changed a lot during course of the series. Practically only thing that this Homura: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTKgR97x-To have in common with this Homura: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1k_f5rI3xY is that they both were very introverted. But this also, somewhat changed in TV show finale, when Akemi become more open to other people; she could cooperate with other Puella Magi, and she could have friendly discussion with Madoka's mother: http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130923023848/anime-fanon/images/8/89/Puella_magi_madoka_magica-12-homura-ribbons.jpg As for show's length... I have two minds about it. On the one hand I kind of agree with you that some characters - like Mami - could gain more depth if series was a a little bit longer - for exemple it would be nice to know what happened with Mami's and Homura's parents, why they are living alone, how can they afford those nice apartments, why teen girls are living alone and none one sims to care about it? Is this normal in Japan? Anyway, it would be nice to knew those things. Only thing that we knew about Homura's past is that she was attend to private Catholic school in Tokyo. I admit that's not a big backstory. It would be nice to know that things. But on the other hand... series was very focused. There wasn't any filer or unnecessary scenes, every episode contributed something to overall plot. In fact you can watch series in it's entirety, in one sitting, like one, long movie. Authors said what they had to say, and they knew where to stop. And that's something I respect. I think, for me, a lot of it just comes from the fact that the show was INCREDIBLY hyped up for me, especially Homura's character arc, and I didn't really find what people promised me in it. I may need to give it a rewatch after some time when I can go into it with an open mind. The biggest thing is just how it felt rushed to me. Although to be honest, I watched Madoka pretty close to after finishing Monster, which was very slow paced (and long) which allowed for some pretty extensive fleshing out of character and plot arcs. I would suggest that placed some influence on how I felt as I made it through the series. From a much more objective point of view, I really do respect the series and its impact, but it just didn't really impact me personally. Someday, I'll give it a second chance when I feel it's the right time. Although, I do really appreciate you sharing your point of view in a civil sort of discourse. I totally understand where you're coming from, which is something I can keep in mind as I try to give Madoka a second chance. |
TheRipperManOct 8, 2014 11:35 AM
Oct 8, 2014 10:44 AM
#34
The only relatable thing I find with Homura is that I would punch her in the face. |
Oct 8, 2014 11:38 AM
#35
Tachikoma1701 said: firstly she was weak, insecure, introverted gir who couldn't relate and bond with to anyone, when she meet Madoka, and when Madoka saved her life, she did indeed bonded with her. Then she lost her and made her wish; seemingly selfless one, made for the sake of Kaname, in reality, on subconscious level, made for selfish reason: she didn't want to lose her only friend. I don't even think that was all that subconscious. It was more like... smacking me right in the face. I mean she had classmates who were interested in befriending her, Mami was nice to her (and also deserves credit for saving her life) yet this girl's is entirely obsessed with Madoka. Tachikoma1701 said: I'm afraid that you are confusing character's motivation with character traits. As I proven above, Homura - both pre and post-Madoka - had distinct personality. Her two word personalities in either form don't change the fact that she, as a person has next to nothing about her besides her dedication to Madoka. Why was she in the hospital? What was her life like before she met Madoka? Even little details like favorite food and hobbies could help make her more human. The thing about character development is that the character is supposed to have a natural progression from point A to point B. How exactly does Homura change between episodes 1 and 12? Aside from occasionally breaking down in tears we don't have her character expanding in any significant way. She's dedicated to protecting Madoka. This is something we could grasp as early as episode 1. Tachikoma1701 said: Homura again evolved; she didn't lost her confidence but at the same time she become person who could work and interact with people... So, you can't really say that she didn't evolved during the course of series, as well you can't say that she didn't have any depth because her wish and therefore her psyche was layered. That's not character growth. Post-episode 10 Homura has always been able to interact with people. She just doesn't have the hardships the show put her through to deal with. Taking two minutes to talk to someone (which of course involves Madoka in some way) doesn't make her any different from the cold, empty character she's been the entire series. The only difference here is that her "quest" is over. Tachikoma1701 said: But it's also worth noticing that Tomoe had also other character trait; she is emotionally unstable, unable to face reality. Which is largely a side-effect of her being alone. Clinging to her idealistic image of being a magical girl is pretty much the only thing keeping her sane. Again, not really traits that make her a person. You can say "This one is insecure. This one is lonely." and it Tachikoma1701 said: the point of Madoka character is that she is seemingly selfless. Sure, she want to help others, but why she is doing it? Because she want to have meaningful life - she said that multiple times. She had two role models; her mother, Junko; successful businesswoman and Mami; a superheroine. Madoka herself never could live up to their standards, so what she is doing in the end? She is for all intents and purposes, she abandoned her family just to be important. I don't say that she is doing this consciously, but this desire is definitely there. I didn't say she wants to help others. I said she wanted to be useful to others. She wants to feel important. But it doesn't change the fact that she's willing to step into the fray when Sayaka is in trouble. The show just forces her not to because she doesn't the sheer degree of screwed she'd be if she tried. And again, this feeling of wanting to be important is a trait that's apparent as early as episode 3, and doesn't really expand in any way. The Madoka we see in episode 12 is entirely the same as the one in the first episode. The only difference is she found a wish she feels is worth giving up everything for, and she actually knows that making the wish is giving up everything. Tachikoma1701 said: Quite the contrary - that's very good twist. It's new, refreshing and unique take on the genre. C'mon; how many stories we have, about standard, boring as dirt, campbellian hero's journey? Lather, rinse, repeat... Madoka's story presented new take on this tired old story, so you hate it for it? Really? Maybe you see them as standard and tired as boring as dirt. I can't really judge cause I don't know what you've seen, but I can guarantee that Madoka is anything but refreshing and unique. We've had dark themes before, we've had characters dying, we've had soul jars, we've had characters becoming monsters. You name it. I do admit it did do something not commonly done, ie having the main character spend 90% of the show being largely ineffectual, then solving everyone's problems just by wishing for it. Tachikoma1701 said: I don't want to offend you but IMO "Sailor Moon" is one of the worst thing that ever come from Japan, and the reason for that is how formulaic and repetitive this show really is. Sailor Moon broke new ground at its time as well, and the formulaic and repetitive nature comes from the anime, not the manga. But that has nothing to do with the point I was making, which is about the enduring of hardships and personal growth of the main character. The Usagi we see in the first episode is a lazy, ditzy crybaby who doesn't think there's anything special about herself. By the end of the show however she has clearly blossomed into a mature, courageous woman who is willingly to throw her life on the line not because she wants to feel important, but because of her unyielding love and dedication to those around her. The end result of her character isn't made obvious from day one, as it is with Madoka. |
Oct 9, 2014 3:33 AM
#36
RLinksoul said: I don't even think that was all that subconscious. It was more like... smacking me right in the face. I mean she had classmates who were interested in befriending her, Mami was nice to her (and also deserves credit for saving her life) yet this girl's is entirely obsessed with Madoka. You mean the classmates who were making fun of her after her first PE lesson? Homura cared a lot about Mami as well. She thought highly of her, until Tomoe broke down and tried to kill them. Homura doesn't become "obsessed" with Madoka after the very first month. She turns out like that after repeating that same month for multiple times and experiencing that Madoka is the only one who would never let her down (see: Mami and Sayaka's hostility in timeline 3). |
Oct 9, 2014 10:52 AM
#37
Don't make me laugh, that obsessive whore Homura only ever cared for that Jesus wannabe garbage Madoka. She never tried to explain properly truth to them, and only responded with: Ummm... Emmm... Hmmm... Who would ever trust someone like her? What Homura and Madoka have, their relationship, is just a most forced yuri in the history of anime. The only decently written characters in this series are Sayaka and Kyoko. Mami was also okay for the little screentime she had... |
Oct 9, 2014 1:09 PM
#38
Psajdak said: Don't make me laugh, that obsessive whore Homura only ever cared for that Jesus wannabe garbage Madoka. gr8 b8 m8 |
Oct 9, 2014 1:15 PM
#39
Well that's how it is. She is selfish whore who only pays attention to one person, and that is just because Madoka was a bit nicer to her. People like that are the most disgusting. |
Oct 9, 2014 1:25 PM
#40
I don't know why you think it's necessary to call her a ''whore'', especially since she isn't one, no matter what your biased feelings make you say. |
Oct 9, 2014 1:40 PM
#42
I don't call her whore as in prostitute whore, but rather someone who simply makes me puke for the way she's acting. Fandom sees her as some tragic cool selfless heroine (because of episode 10 retcon), but anyone who knows how human beings are would notice easily she is just empty, cold and shitty Madoka obsessed machine that doesn't give shit about anyone else. It really makes me wonder what kind of people are those who actually like her... |
Oct 9, 2014 1:43 PM
#43
She is actually not selfless, very far from it, as the movie made quite clear, and I never really read many people call her a selfless heroine even before the movie. She is a tragic heroine though. I think that her not caring for anybody that isn't Madoka is clearly established, but there were a few scenes where she showed some little bit of care, when she tried to save Mami. |
Oct 9, 2014 2:01 PM
#44
Szadek23 said: Why exactly am I troll?Plz ignore Psajdak,he is just the local forum troll. For actually calling shitty selfish character what she is? Also, who are you anyway? tsudecimo said: Nah, she's not any kind of heroine; she's just forced yuri thing with Madoka for rather non-existent reason...She is actually not selfless, very far from it, as the movie made quite clear, and I never really read many people call her a selfless heroine even before the movie. She is a tragic heroine though. I think that her not caring for anybody that isn't Madoka is clearly established, but there were a few scenes where she showed some little bit of care, when she tried to save Mami. And she never actually cared; the only reason she ever helped anyone was because that was for Madoka's sake. She is simply badly written character... It wasn't just Madoka that helped her in the past, everyone in group did; and what did she do when Mami went berserk, and Madoka saved her - she turned her all attention to her. Good person would instead with such time powers try to prevent tender person like Mami into such situation again... If she and Madoka actually were together for a long time, like from when they were little kids, or something like that, but in this case Urobuchi just inserted her into series... The only thing she was doing was just going back into past and leveling up main boss, while she had all the tools she needed to persuade other girls to help her. But nooooo, Urobuchi just had to make her alone for the sake of fanboys who can't recognize shitty character due to "cool" appearance... Don't make me laugh. |
Oct 10, 2014 1:04 PM
#45
Ignore every plot point and characterization in the series, laught that the fanboys,laugh at the writer, laugh at the story and characters and ignore everyone that does more than just throwing insults and buzzwords like you. Discussion 101. |
Oct 10, 2014 1:43 PM
#46
No, Madoka series is actually really good without Homura's parts, and most of Madoka's. Sayaka's character development since the beginning of first series until the end of the third movie is one of the best I've ever saw - it was simply marvelously executed. It's hard to believe that Urobuchi who wrote such great character like Sayaka, also wrote Homura failure in the same series... If I could compare Homura's situation with real world it would be like this: you (doesn't matter if you are male or female) go to school, work, or wherever... In short, you live your life with people you know... Until some totally unknown person appears before you, and is quite obsessive. There is absolutely nothing good about Homura, well, aside from nice design which is good material for hentai fan art I guess, and her powers are interesting, but that doesn't make an interesting character. She is either one dimensional, or totally random like in third movie... EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it, maybe Urobuchi was just drunk or a bit high; no clean person would ever write such a bad character. |
KleferiOct 10, 2014 1:55 PM
Oct 10, 2014 1:58 PM
#47
I would just repost my reply above but that could be taken as trolling so... Yeah, you still have to learn to pay attention to the story and listen to others. And dont ask me to explain anything, others did and you just ignored them and replied with some random insults about the characters and subtle insults about the fans and writer.SO I wont bother saying the same stuff they did. You, as seen when you get offended by people that call you troll, want to be taken seriously. So please for once make a post that isnt filled by buzzwords and insults. |
Oct 10, 2014 2:20 PM
#48
I thought we were over with troll thing; the only trolls on this site are you and that guy Fai; and you guys don't deserve for me to wish to be taken seriously by you two. But then again, you two never knew anything further from calling people trolls who don't agree with you (and it's not just me)... Anyway, of course I paid attention to the story and on other people's explanation on this forum, but no matter how I think about it, Homura is bad character - her whole Madoka, Madoka, Madoka obsessiveness is really forced and it simply won't go away. Proper character doesn't revolve around only one other character, but around people in general. As for Homura's reasons, and how she didn't try harder to persuade others in her quest; I remember you were arguing with someone about that, and neither of you changed your minds. I agree with that person who said she Homura had all the necessary tools and ability to prove that what she says it's true to Sayaka and others, but instead she just mumbled something... I would understand if Homura had some history with Madoka like Sayaka, but like this... Of course, I am aware of hers time travels, but suddenly becoming obsessed with Madoka like none of the other girls ever saved her... She simply doesn't feel natural, but is more like made to be liked for her coolness. |
Oct 10, 2014 2:27 PM
#49
Psajdak said: I thought we were over with troll thing; the only trolls on this site are you and that guy Fai; and you guys don't deserve for me to wish to be taken seriously by you two. But then again, you two never knew anything further from calling people trolls who don't agree with you (and it's not just me)...She simply doesn't feel natural, but is more like made to be liked for her coolness. Really random when I didnt even call you a troll. And I wont go into details about the content of the posts, users I have called trolls, have. Psajdak said: Anyway, of course I paid attention to the story and on other people's explanation on this forum, but no matter how I think about it, Homura is bad character - her whole Madoka, Madoka, Madoka obsessiveness is really forced and it simply won't go away. Proper character doesn't revolve around only one other character, but around people in general. As for Homura's reasons, and how she didn't try harder to persuade others in her quest; I remember you were arguing with someone about that, and neither of you changed your minds. I agree with that person who said she Homura had all the necessary tools and ability to prove that what she says it's true to Sayaka and others, but instead she just mumbled something... I would understand if Homura had some history with Madoka like Sayaka, but like this... Of course, I am aware of hers time travels, but suddenly becoming obsessed with Madoka like none of the other girls ever saved her... She simply doesn't feel natural, but is more like made to be liked for her coolness. Especially the explanations by other users, you did nothing but ignore them. If not then you wouldnt have tunnel vision on lot of your "points". And thats my last reply.Dont want to get into another circlejerk. |
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