The loli trend, is it waning?

Loli hasn't always been the booming influence on anime and manga that is it now.
Once hardly heard of an obscure, it's influence is now or at least recently been far reaching.

To the controversy of Kodomo no Jikan. To the Lucky Star boom that hit Japan like a sledgehammer. To the long running Shakugan no Shana series. To Zero no Tsukaima and Toradora. To the uprise of fanatical Rie Fandom. To to Aru Majutsu no Index. To the cultish Touhou boom that has echoed throughout the otaku community. To the bemused talk of Strike Witches and the degree to which it shows the fandom at. To Kannagi, the author even frequently announcing her character's lack of bust. To the various slice of life comedies in a slice of life boom, whose material focuses on the lives of little girls, moe aesthetic, and rarely busty drawn characters. It's even played up a bit in Gurren Lagann with Nia. And the boom even reached to ecchi usually about hourglass figured boobservice and wide hips. You had characters such as Ezomori Nozomu, and entire show centered around loli-ecchi, Moetan. Kyouran Kazoku Nikki, Yuki Nagato, Silver Forest's Tsurupettan, Ranka Lee...I could go on from this point much longer.

For the longest time, big busted women have been the strict trope of anime and manga. And flat chested women were incredibly scares. In the past years has seen a tremendous increase in anime appearance. To the point it may have in some communities become more common to complain that "I'm tired of all these flatty women in anime and manga, catering to those nasty DFC fans" than "what's with all these unrealistically large breasted women?!".

But has it reached it's limit and is the trend ending? At first, it was brimmed with excitement and controversy, fans brimming with loli talk either tongue in cheek, or serious fandom of some sort.

Anymore, is the trend at all starting to run out of steam? Where are we headed exactly? Maybe I've just grown into the trend, but from my eyes it seems to be dying down a little bit. No longer does the Tsurupettan jokes and area seem to have the same impact and novelty they once did to people. Loli is less brought up, and when it is, it's talked about more like a thing of the past. No longer such a broad controversy and amusement, it looks as if to narrowing back down into obscurity a little bit for the hardcores to hold onto.

Where is loli trend at, and where is it headed? Am I imagining things at all? What is the future of anime and manga trending right now? Are we moving into a trap or shota phase? Are we moving into an era of non-loli moe? Are gruesomely muscular Dragonball-esque action leads going to resurface and take the forefront again? Perhaps we'll even see the return of the space Western?

I'm done rambling. You go.

I don't know if it's running out of steam, or ever will as long as there's a market for it, but I would like to see more diverse character designs than the DFC or mutant ginormoboobs that are all so common. It seems "normal" chests are rather undesirable, and the fandom is split down the middle of too small or too big, without many fence sitters.

However, like all things, it's constantly changing, so who knows where it will go in the future. It's difficult, if not impossible to predict trends that are basically just fanservice to boost sales, not having any real impact on story (unless you count exploding breasts in Queen's Blade to be a story element).

Personally, I certainly hope we're moving on from the loli trend, since the attraction to children is rather unhealthy to foster, and various pressure groups are trying to force bans on sexualised lolis among other things, so maybe producers will actually cut back a little just to avoid those lobbyists. While I can ignore super-breasted women, and don't care about DFC or otherwise small breasted adults, the sexualised children that have been common lately certainly can go die in a fire as far as I'm concerned.

I agree with Asako. This attraction to children is worrying, plus the clear and overt sexualisation of them is frankly disturbing.
Surely there are better ways of getting your point across, as an artist/writer, than making children sexy?

I think we're in the era of big boobs at the moment. Fanservice + big boobs, or just girls in anime with abnormally large boobs.

Nothing comes to mind as being typically loli in recent seasons (when I say 'comes to mind' I don't mean there hasn't been shows featuring lolis). edit: scratch that, a few came to mind.

It's annoying that normal proportions are so rare nowadays. I guess the two extremes (loli + HUEG BOOBS) are the focus of many jokes, hence why they are(/were) so common.

As for future trends I have no idea. I'd like to see the focus shift away from the human body though.

edit: so yeah, i pretty much agree with Asako too

Was Lucky Star really about lolicons?

Oh the human body has always been and probably always will be a major part of anime.
Also, aesthetic trends will always be a topic and an aspects of media of all kinds.
I read an article the other day talking about how hollywood men are portrayed as significantly more androgynous than they used to be.

I'm talking about aesthetic trends here, not necessarily body focus. Or are you just implying that body is focused on too much in anime independent of my assertions in my post?

I could have also made a topic about Tsundere. I also get the feeling that trend is slightly starting to wane, as well.


It's a significant marker of the loli/lolicon trend, in my opinion.

And they're supposedly in their high school years yet look like kindergartners. The wonder of Japanese animation. It certainly does look like a direct relationship to the trend. If loli wasn't on the rise, perhaps these high school students would look more proportionate to their age.

May I remind people that this is a -discussion- thread, and to type real replies, please. Tiny short posts will be deleted. Even if you're agreeing or disagreeing with stuff already said, please actually justify your reasoning, don't just say you agree or don't.

Sigh...and here I'm hated around these parts for being tl;dr about everything.
I must thank you though for defending my thread by trying to make sure it maintains quality discussion.

They appeal to the loli and moe trend, especially characters like Konata, Tsukasa, Yutaka, Minami, and Akira. But saying kindergarden seems lik

To me they look like a mixture of loli aesthetics, moe aesthetics, and chibi aesthetics.
However this to me, while neotenous, is nowhether close to especially age-like. Especially to that degree. The chibi aesthetic makes it especially hard to gauge what I'd say their age looks like. I consider them lolis, but I don't think they look like little kids. At least my mind doesn't register them as looking like such.

How is it that they look like kindergartners to you? I need more details.

Wait, lolis aren't little kids? Then what are they? My urban arbitrary definition of modern anime slang is not consistently updated, so you'll have to fill me in on that.

Lolis are actually kids, yeah. A lot of people confuse DFC for lolis, though, partly because they are mistaken so commonly, and often thrown in together. I think there's a pretty distinct difference in age alone, though there are older characters such as Konata that can be considered loli since she is short and looks young compared to her peers. However Nagi is not, she's just DFC.

That's a debate that could easily deserve it's own thread.
I think that the term encompasses that in one of it's meanings. But it's also come to mean more than that.

Also, saying someone looks like a kindergartner is different from saying one looks like an underage person.
"Loli" never implied just "prepubescent child". One of it's meanings is underage girl, but it's quite a bit varied.

I look at the loli trend as also part of an aesthetic thing that has shot up alongside the moe trend. And can also be looked at as an aesthetic. To me it's sort of parallel to the word "twink" in Western culture. Since we don't have a word like that for loli, and because of anime fandom incorporating Japanese words, we just say "loli" and "shota".

Of course, I view Lucky Star characters as Neotenous and Loli, but saying they look like kindergartners is to me, a bit stretching it. To me, they look like ambiguous chibis.

Or maybe it's just that the meaning of loli is broad or at least broadening.

Usage of it certainly is, yeah. But I think that's unfortunate. Lolis should stay lolis. eg. Lolita - young sexualised girl around or under the age of consent. I don't think girls over the AoC (or puberty, really) should be referred to as loli, as that's where other terms like tsurupettan, DFC, washboard etc should come in. I think it's important that loli stay pre-legal, as it is a clear line that shouldn't be crossed. Even in 2D form I think it's "unhealthy" to be sexually attracted to minors. Though obviously I'd rather lolicons fap to loli porn than going out abducting little girls to rape.

Acting like pen and paper is the same thing as flesh and blood... Reality check, dimwit, pen and paper doesn't make people actual pedophiles. God I hate people like you, making people like me sound like molesters.

I play GTA, too, does that make me a crazed murderer? Fuck, get a grip.

It depends on how you use the term.

Wiki in a strict legal definition states loli is anything under age of consent, no room for discussion. That's infant to age of consent, which in some cases is 20, and rarely lower than 16 and with conditions.

If it's anime, it's under the above definition some manner of loli. And if you have an image of a sexually suggestive 17 year old anime personality that is not fully dressed, it is by some definitions (usually ones that matter as it will be in a courtroom), child porn.

Opinion doesn't mean squat till your freedom is on the line eh.

I think loli is anything of a sexual content below the age of 12.
That's my opinion, and I wouldn't be expecting it to mean sweet fuck all in a Canadian courtroom.

So I would be inclined to state, that a person liking the occasional erotic piece of anime artwork would do well to ensure know one ever has a chance of actually discovering it. That would mean not letting even your closest buddy know. Because life can make even a close friend turn on you.

And do you want to be registered as a sex offender?

Soooooo the original question is impossible to answer.
To some, there is NO trend, as it has and always will be 'loli crap'.
And those that deny this, are not going to get far trying ti disuade the only people that matter, the ones with power over your freedom.

If I think it isn't loli or not, won't matter.

From an artist's stand-point, the thing about not drawing boobs on a character, is that you're normally trying to take away their sex-appeal. I can't tell you how many times I've been called a pervert for drawing boobs or abs on a character. Having girls that look like they're children isn't necessarily bad, because a lot of teenage girls look like that anyways. A character that's flat or big chested is just an example of dramatizing their features. I don't really believe we're heading into the age of pedophilia with lolis/shotas any time soon, it's becoming less acceptable on legal grounds, but perhaps we're heading into the age of normal looking characters, along with chibis.(there will always be chibis)

I'm pretty sure that person was just exaggerating. I always call anyone that can't drink a kid. Doesn't mean they're a child.

This is true, and fine. There are plenty of series about kids that are perfectly cute and not sexualised at all, eg. Card Captor Sakura, Ichigo Mashimaro, etc. They're fine and dandy, but then you have things like Kodomo no Jikan which while actually a rather good story that is about how fucked up such behaviour is and how bad certain aspects of society are, it does certainly push the limits of children's sexuality.

And the biggest problem lies in the fans who sexualise non-sexual characters, and the industry that supports them. The people who really do fap to these little kids, and draw doujin and write fanfics about them being sluts and all the rest. Certain aspects of the market seem to cater specifically to this crowd, which I think is rather wrong. If fans want to write their own stories about the characters, that's one thing, but the industry catering to them is another. That material shouldn't be mainstream, as it's basically saying "yeah, it's okay to lust after young children". Even though any sensible and rational person can separate fantasy from reality, it is still rather questionable.

Kuyuchi does make a valid point though, I suppose. Violent games don't turn people in to murderers, so sexy little girls won't turn people in to paedophiles, but I still personally find it distasteful, even if I love slaughtering things en mass in violent games.

Though, it seems like to me there's a lot more words for child than flat chested or young looking. I still can't think of a Western, female equivalent word for Twink. I think that's what the term loli has sort of come to represent and mean.
And there's already words for child in Japan, so it's not like loli is a perfect Japanophile alternative.

If we're going to have a clearly defined between young looking or young, don't we already have enough of those words? Using the word child should surely suffice for a border instead of "loli" or "shota". If we're going to have that many words for kid out there, we'd might as well have a little variation in the meanings.

Part of the reason I've supported this nuance and aesthetic leaning meaning, is because there's already plenty of words for child, in both Japanese and English and so forth language. We need a word for a female twink.

I apologize, I'm helping to derail this topic from the subject of whether loli as a trend is wavering and declining or not. Though it helps to define and discuss what loli is before you can know what the trend is, and whether it's declining or not.

I think one of the signs of the "loli" trend is that's becoming less the case.
DFC/Loli has become it's own kind of fanservice. And it's gained a lot of mainstream anime attention instead of being so sectarian and unrecognized. How much that is waver, and if it is truly wavering, I do not know. But many female characters have surely been created flat in order to appeal to a certain demographic. That didn't really happen in the past that I'm aware.

And I blame it as a loli/pettanko undercurrent of the moe movement.

A bunch of countries are taking measures to make sure owning/downloading/purchasing this stuff is punishable by a very long stay in prison. I believe we will see slightly less lolicon and shotacon in the coming years, because it's becoming illegal, but there will always be something too disturbing for the public eye, no matter what. There will always be that one black sheep, like Kodomo no Jikan.

I've never viewed anime characters as actual people. They will always be cartoon characters to me. The danger lies in each person's imagination and brain, rather than the content. If I watched the stuff, it wouldn't make me a dangerous person. If a pedophile watched it, maybe.

Basic economics: a product/serivce without substitutes has higher demand and lower demand-elasticity than a product/service with substitutes. In other words, loli decreases the amount of child molestation.

And,as recent statistics show, decreases number of births in Japan. Plus, it increases number of upskirt photographers and 'pillow-huggers'. At least that's what I believe. I'm talking here mostly about lolicon and some fandoms,. Haruhi and alike.

I hope so. I don't like 'm :)

4/10, weak troll

anyway, as I've always maintained, anime sometimes has too much of good things. Fanservice, lolis, explosions, giant robots, dancing characters, memes, self-references, they all fall under that category of stuff that ppl get tired of once certain anime abuse their existances. So even tho I did create this...I say quality over quantity gais

Yes, it was an exaggeration. I guess elementary students would fill the bill more.

Not a troll but my personal opinion. You don't have to agree with it ;] Overall, I'm sort of disappointed with the flood of fanservice oriented anime with lack of any serious plot whatsoever.

There is too few adult titles nowadays (anime), e.g. Ergo Proxy, Texhnolyze, Kaiba, Aoi Bungaku, etc. And no, I don't take hentai into consideration ^^

I think that moe is replacing lolicon. Ever since good old Mikuru came along, I see a lot more moe stuff. Maybe she just opened my eyes, or something. Loli is getting kind of old (LOL!!!) and as people have mentioned, since lolicon hentai is illegal in the States (although most people turn a blind eye to it) I think that we are going to see a decline in lolicon-inspired artwork. Yes, I know that Anime is made in japan, but a great deal of their money comes from what we do here in the states, so we do have an influence on that, even if it is pretty small.

Only because anime was never meant for the adult audience (not young adults, roughly 18-29). Even in the older generations stuff like Astro Boy, Gundams and plenty of other popular works could be enjoyed mostly for a kid. Sure there are some serious adult pieces out there, but they might just be targeted for a younger audience who's more interested in mature contents, which may not actually be targeted for actual adults. I'm not denying that adults couldn't enjoy it, it's just that it seems to me anime was always mostly targeted for adolescences to begin with.

Loli is more cute then sexy to me anyway.

"It's ok to like Loli and masterbate to it as long if you don't touch real kids."
xD

I thought that the extremely high standards women set for men they want to date were the cause of decreasing the birth rate in Japan. Even thou I reckon anime/manga culture is big in Japan it's still only a small percentage of the total population there.

If you're going to use statistics as an argument please document them before you make such statements and thus prove to me that anime/manga and more specifically 'loli' is the direct reason that the birth rate is decreasing.

Hrm. I've only recently started watching anime (started may '09), so i'm not really sure how the trend was before i caught up with the more popular and recent series.

However, if i follow what you guys are saying, there being apparently quite a lot of loli stuff a while back, then i reckon it's decreasing a bit.

There are still a few loli-type things this season, although in all honesty, i'm not sure how i myself classify loli, since i'm pretty sure it's not my thing.

Potential recent examples: Lisa from Sacred Blacksmith, Sengoku from Bakemonogatari. There are probably more, but i've probably forgotten them.

As Asako someone said, as long as there's demand, there'll be supply, although in proportion to the demand. Therefore, we can probably assume that the trend's going down a little.

I think that shows with moe as a main element which have at least one character which could be classed as a loli (Azusa in K-ON!'s case), promote loli to a certain extent, and when the show is as popular as K-ON! was, i think it has an effect on what people want, and therefore what's produced.

Still, in the end, from what i know, i think the trend is decreasing.

Right now, the trend seems to be girls with (unbelievably) huge boobs. However, anime which depict young girls as sexual objects etc are definitely not acceptable.

sadly in anime plot is ill-relevant when tits and twats are concerned as it is complete fanservice for the most part regardless the perceived age of the character is in question..

as they say sex sells.. unfortunately, sometimes taste can be irked when watching said anime, ecchi or hentai genre..

is you see sex dumdum you're not watching anime, you're likely watching ecchi or hentai..

The implications you've put behind this statement are simply massive.
Most of which are Unfortunate implications.

That's why it sounds like a troll, if it's not. The part about pillow huggers and Haruhi sounds even more bullish and coincidental enough to sound like a troll.

Anyway, even with the birthrate worries in Japan, Japan is still a pretty crowded place. And the world is still not only overpopulated, but alarming still growing fast. I don't see how an appeal to nature would fit a Utilitarianism perspective right now.

Furthermore, the root causes and even barely related causes of Japan's birth rate are endlessly hypothesized about by anthropologists and sociologists. I don't lolicon has ever been a major consideration when discussing Japan's birthrate. And if lolicons really are pedophiles as some state, they probably shouldn't have baby-making as a goal.

Your statement essentially looks silly, offensive, or purposely so, which would make it a troll. It's probably even worse if your statement isn't a troll than if it is.

Interestingly though, if the "cartoons are for kids" in Japan just like they are in the U.S., that also says some interesting things about child sexuality and the implications therein, on a lot of stuff. People are always going on saying that anime is for an older audience for the content, whereas people retort that anime is still viewed as a kid's thing in Japan, and that these are kids shows. There may be an elitism on the "anime is for adults" side and anti-elitism and pro-American toon mentality in "anime is still for kids in Japan" to each side, but one is right or the other.

Apparently, a lot of the shows rated for adults, censored in most available versions, and more rare uncensored versions released, are actually for kids in reality.

Which means, sexuality is being targeted towards underage kids in Japan. And without any noticeable disturbing effect. The kids are crying to their parents that they barely naked and sexual acts were on their cartoon show.

So a lot of these "lolicons" pushing these boundaries and setting trends, are probably largely underage kids themselves. When thinking of "protecting the kids" here, it may be just as useful to think of all the sexual material children are watching and all the sexual material being marketed toward children. When seeing all this material of younger boys having sexual encounters with older women, could it be telling young boys that not only is it okay for older women to have relations with them, but that they should go for older women.

Interestingly, I think a lot of the discussion in this topic has possibly been made under the assumption that anime is an adult leaning genre of entertainment.

To me, K-on isn't a very loli show. And it's a proof that maybe we're moving a bit out of the loli trend and a bit into a moe trend.

Ok, not to quote quotations of quotations

@Smasher
Concerning statistics, there was an article about it which I read some weeks age. Can't pinpoint it right now.

@Tachii
There was some anime works for adults in the past, e.g. by Go Nagai and even titles You mention, e.g. Gundam had strong adult vibes (Zeta by killem all Tomino).

@ukonkivi
Ok, this was my implication and belief and not a fact which I mentioned earlier. And defeinitely I didn't imply about loli anime creating/influencing paedophiles although the rising number of preeten hentai games/mangas is quite disturbing.

To summarize, it can influence birth race but the degree of such depends on people themselves. This problem, among others in Japan, was shown in Welcome to NHK. All in all, I didn't mean to offend anyone so don't get worked up :F

Its a good news, at least to yaoi and fujioshi fangirls anyway...

I hope loli is on its way out =/.

Boobs are good.

Depends on size. Anything larger than D is worse than DFC in my opinion and I'm not even a loli fan. I'm still not liking the fact we're going towards a moe trend either.

I didn't say there weren't any adult works. Just that most works are targeted for adolescences. Works like Monster and Gankutsuou seem to share no similar vibe for younger youths, as well.

I'd like to think that's true. But Vampire Bund is just one of a few shows. And is there really that much hype around it at all? Maybe I'm just noticing the usual detractors and attitudes so much, but the general reaction seemed to be fairly lukewarm.


If by boobs you mean AA washboard, then yes indeedy.
If not, then I have to say, not for me. Even with the so called loli/pettanko/dfc trend I've seen large breasts plainly have much higher numbers than DFC. As a person who greatly prefers flat chests, that movement was my best chance to see the scales tip in my favor. And at least more generally move to a scale like AA to C with more frequency around the smaller A instead of ridiculous DDs all over the place.

Even within the loli/pettanko trend, y'all had enough large boobs all over the place.
It's our turn now, really.

Also, adblock plus-ed your avatar.

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE GO AWAY GO AWAY GO AWAY.
I hate missing the deadline for these ugly marks.:X

I was under the impression that loli meant a very young girl. Why are Shana, Louise, Taiga and Yuki being brought up? They all, for the most part, just look like high schoolers with flat chests. The cast of Lucky Star, however, look like children. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Because they are frequently mentioned as lolis.

Loli is more of a rather vague movement and classification that formed alongside the moe movement and classification, to my understanding. One of it's meanings is youth, but it's apparently not limited to that.

Rie Kugimiya is frequently regarded as a famous "loli voice actress" and her lolis of fame are cited as being Taiga, Louise, and Shana. On gelbooru, those three are frequently given the tag "loli".

Also Yuki Nagato and Mikuru Asahina are a good example of though overlapping, moe and loli are both very different. And Kyon's Sister and Yuki Nagato are the most loli in all of the Haruhi cast, while Mikuru Asahina embodies the moe aesthetic more than anyone in Haruhi Suzumiya Melancholy. Yuki Nagato is notable for being the flattest older character in Haruhi, while Kyon's sister is just young. Too differently defined lolis, one being young and one just being flat and uncurvy, but I believe they share the same aesthetic movement. And Mikuru Asahina being curvy, big breasted, but also appeal very strongly to the moe aesthetic more than anyone else in the cast.

So in my opinion, loli CAN mean young, but it's not limited to that definition.

Loli is about body type, not necessarily age.

I hope so. The more lolicon tropes were seeping into mainstream anime, the skeevier it was getting to be an anime fan by association. I tend to stay away from moe and datesim shows, but it was impossible to escape their influence over the last few years. If there is a backlash, it's long overdue.

I was watching Clannad ~After Story~ the other day and

It did make me think about their idolization of school girls. Though I did explain to her that Nagisa's the only one who looks like a little girl, whilst Tomoyo and Kyou all look older.

interesting way to think about that. i never would have classified Nagato under the loli category but i guess i wouldn't necessarily disqualify her from it...actually yeah i think i would. i think there are two ways of looking at at. one is strictly the age factor. personally i would say loli is anything 14 years and below, which would pretty much scrap out any of the high school girls that were mentioned before (shana, taiga etc etc). the other would be the something like the "look" of it. basically they have to look like they are around the 14 and below age range. example : Komoe Tsukuyomi is an adult and a teacher, but looks like she is 10 or something. Nagato barely makes it into what i would call the loli age range and she definitely doesn't have that loli look or style going for her (same with any of those previously mentioned characters). don't really know if that was a coherent argument but i just woke up so forgive me.

Technically everyone in TMoHS is 3 anyway.

Just on the Lucky Star topic, I didn't really think that they were Loli... I mean, I thought loli was when they actually were little girls, but the girls from Lucky Star are just quite young looking. I mean, they aren't really sexualised at all...

You fail to grasp the definition of this kink. The point of a loli is that she's not typically "sexualized."

Hmm... interesting topic you've got going on here.

I personally can't stand this moe/loli trend that has been going on, im an adult and i dont care for seeing a child or what looks to me like a child dressed in bikini's or underwear being sexual, and when i see a series that within the first episode or two is based mostly around this i will avoid it like the black plague. Only time i will ever watch series such as these is if im told by someone that the story is extremely well thought out or it has some great plot twists, then i will try and bear with it.

I also dont much care for the animes which are focused on overly large breasted women(example: whitch blade) i watch anime for the stories and art work, if i want to see giant boob's i'll go buy a playboy.

But as someone else has already said before (dont remember exactly who) sex sells, and the anime franchize is a business and they are there to sell the shows and all the merchandise of the show (posters toys dvd's etc). really wish this wasn't the case, i feel that if we didn't have these things in 85% of todays anime being aired we would have alot more quality anime to watch instead of crap that was thrown togeather over night.

I however dont see these trends going away as soon as i would like because there is always going to be a market for them, and when there's someone willing to buy something someone else is willing to make it.

These are just my opinion's on the topic.