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Sep 15, 2014 7:29 PM
#1

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Feb 2014
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Hey guys. So this thread might cause a lot of controversy so I apologize beforehand, but I'm just genuinely curious to hear what some people have to say.

I'm picking on One Piece, but I could also say the same for Fairy Tail. Moving on, so when I hear the "Big 3", that means someone is referring to Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece. Now when I hear these names, I also automatically think that these are the shounens that are pretty typical when it comes to the genre, but that's just my assumption. Though, others seem to feel this way as well.

Now, I only watch Naruto out of the big three and I can say that it definitely deserves some of the labels it gets because it is at times the one leading the pack for generic shounen shows. Bleach, from what I've heard is very similar to Naruto in that regard and both of their ranks at least somewhat represent that.

But One Piece is different. I see it ranked up in the top 50 and it makes me wonder because if the show is ranked so high then maybe my assumptions are wrong about the show. But I always see One Piece thrown in the same pack as Naruto and Bleach. If people felt the same way about One Piece as Naruto and Bleach, wouldn't the rank be similar to them? I mean there was over 160,000 people that have given it a score and 106,000 of them gave it a 9 or a 10.

Maybe the fanbase is really prominent here on MAL or maybe when MAL first launched everyone rushed to give it a good score out of excitement for the site and never bothered to change it later, IDK. Or maybe, One Piece really does deserve the rank.

I recently just caught up to Hunter x Hunter and it's absolutely phenomenal and it definitely deserves to be in the top 10. I'm just wondering how can this anime that's considered to be typical and never ending. but is ranked so high? Maybe One Piece truly is a great story and it's been doing a good job of keeping everything together for 600 episodes.

The one thing that bothers me with Naruto is the characters just stay the same all the way through except for a few, so it seems like there's never any character development and I feel like that might be a problem with most long running shows. Bleach probably faces the same problems and I'm wondering if One Piece has those problems as well. HxH however, does not have that problem. The characters are developing all the time and that's one of the reasons I love it so much.

So anyways, I'm just wondering if you think One Piece deserves such a high rank or maybe you could explain why it's ranked so high? Or explain why you don't think it deserves that rank? I know a lot of people will say that rankings are superficial and don't matter, and they might have a point, but I do believe that ranks/scores do serve as good source to see how the general anime community feels about anime shows.
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Sep 15, 2014 8:18 PM
#2

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No, it deserves higher.

LoomyTheBrew said:
If people felt the same way about One Piece as Naruto and Bleach, wouldn't the rank be similar to them?
Doesn't this site's score show that at least on this site the majority of people don't feel the same way about them? The people who dislike a show are almost always in the minority. That goes for the people who think they're all the same crap.
Sep 15, 2014 8:20 PM
#3

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Mar 2014
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It seems to be where it belongs, maybe a little lower though.
Sep 15, 2014 8:27 PM
#4

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"Shounens"

Also, i literally hate battle shounen and even I will admit that one piece is on an entirely different level than Naruto.

Thats like Comparing The Godfather 2 to Gangster Squad.
Sep 15, 2014 8:32 PM
#5

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Apr 2014
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It's deserve higher of course.
Sep 15, 2014 11:36 PM
#6

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Apr 2014
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One Piece > Naruto/Bleach
Sep 16, 2014 12:59 AM
#7

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i dont necessarily think you have to group any anime at all in general, but that is just me. Alll i know is that it deserves its ranking 100%
Sep 16, 2014 1:02 AM
#8

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No I don't. I believe One Piece deserves a 7.5, maybe close to 8 MAX. Not a bad anime, but not a legendary one either as people like to see it. And I say the same for fairy tail. Naruto at least has a serious and interesting story line to make up for the horrible fillers, and Bleach although ended horribly was pretty good for the most part. I mainly watch One Piece for the laughs and to pass the time but never really a serious watch. I'm not a shitter on One Piece it can be enjoyable at times but it's definitely overrated, imo
Sep 16, 2014 1:16 AM
#9

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Out of the big three, I believe One Piece is much better than Naruto and Bleach. Though I can't really say much about Naruto because I dropped it around Shikamaru's group vs Kakuzu and Hidan. Bleach is great but nowhere near One Piece.
I haven't watched HxH so I can't comment on that (the MC design somehow turned me off :/)

I think One Piece deserve it's score, if not higher.
Sep 16, 2014 1:17 AM

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one piece has the same blind following on mal that LOGH does.

Say OP is good: look like you have good taste.
Sep 16, 2014 2:00 AM

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I'd say it deserves it, why not, I don't care...

...character development-wise, it has some traits, but I would not put it among the best or most solid in that regard. And while the worldbuilding is vast and engaging, the story tends to bring simple and repetitive schemes among different arcs. So then, what is the whole fuss about it? I'd say it's in the tone. One Piece is funny, easy-going and it appeals to the basic emotions of adventure and discovery. It doesn't detract from the serious and dark tones but it doesn't feel that it's preaching you either. Also, there's the special care that the characters in this series always have. They may not be thoroughly developed, but once they are set and no matter what happens they become part of the world, and contribute to make it look vast and colorful in their weirdness. If you read the manga you can notice how Oda has a lot of fun inventing backstories, names and situations for his characters, even with the background ones. This attitude is perfectly translated in most of the anime, though it has kind of been lacking at some later arcs.
Sep 16, 2014 5:48 AM

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LoomyTheBrew said:

The one thing that bothers me with Naruto is the characters just stay the same all the way through except for a few, so it seems like there's never any character development and I feel like that might be a problem with most long running shows. Bleach probably faces the same problems and I'm wondering if One Piece has those problems as well. HxH however, does not have that problem. The characters are developing all the time and that's one of the reasons I love it so much.

Unless you have a different definition of character development, I don't understand how you can make that statement. There are a lot of characters that had substantial development over the course of the story in Naruto. While whether or not it was good development is subjective, I don't know how you can deny it's existence. I don't know another shounen that has more developed characters.

Which characters do you mean, when you say they are the same?
Sep 16, 2014 7:52 AM
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Jul 2014
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The animation quality in the anime got worse (after timeskip in general), the pacing threw me off and I switched to the manga. I can't handle watching Fishman Island to get back into it, as I feel it's a waste of time. One Piece went from a really good anime to an average-looking anime, when the manga still holds up to the standards set by the series.

Even with that, the One Piece anime has a fair rating. No higher or lower than about 8. The manga is a definite 9.
Sep 16, 2014 7:53 AM
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It deserves to be in the top 10 list.
Sep 16, 2014 8:44 PM

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I marathoned it in three weeks before getting bored after Fishman island. Planning to catch up soon, but yes. From what I recall it does deserve higher, purely for entertainment value though.
Sep 17, 2014 5:22 AM

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Well, anime sucks right now in terms of art, animation, pacing and direction, so idk. But manga with it's 9.00 score? Yes, it does deserve it.

Does OP have character development? Yes, but very little of it, so little the most of the people don't even notice it. It's just not something that Oda focuses on. It happens, but it's not thrown into your face, it's hidden in the details, small things you need to discover on your own.

And why OP it scored do high?
Becasue
- it's crazy, wacky and funny
- great art
- shitload of fun to watch characters
- dem feels
- great storytelling
- amazing worldbuilding
- no major bullshit in the plot
- fairly consistent power levels
- epicness
Sep 17, 2014 5:43 AM
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Jun 2013
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I think its current rank is completely fine. The animation and pacing sucks sometimes, but for a big shounen, it does its job pretty well. I can see One Piece ending with a rank of 20-30, though. It will not get higher than 20, give your hopes up. And it certainly will not reach #1, and if it happens, prepare for the ultimate mal-apocalypse in a way you have never seen it before.
Sep 17, 2014 8:05 AM

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TheRedOtaku said:
I think its current rank is completely fine. The animation and pacing sucks sometimes, but for a big shounen, it does its job pretty well. I can see One Piece ending with a rank of 20-30, though. It will not get higher than 20, give your hopes up. And it certainly will not reach #1, and if it happens, prepare for the ultimate mal-apocalypse in a way you have never seen it before.
Have you heard of the 1/5 rule? It will no doubt reach the top 10.
Sep 17, 2014 8:22 AM

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Give it another 10 years.
IntroverTurtle said:
It will no doubt reach the top 10.
Sep 17, 2014 4:30 PM

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One piece was the only one I didn't drop out of the "big 3"
It's really the only one out of the 3 where every single main character is lovable.
lol
Sep 19, 2014 4:33 AM
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Quite honestly, One Piece is shit compared to Naruto. The Battle animations are crap, the story is shit, the characters are mostly boring. The only thing OP scores with is its setting. Don't get me wrong, I can still watch 15 episodes a day without getting bored, because its a battle shonen, but still, I could use my time way better than watching One Piece.

Wow. The day I can watch something like Fairy Tail with the same gusto as FMA is the day I stop watching anything at all!

Edit: No wonder you are confused as to what constitutes quality. You've mixed everything up.


First, I don't see the point. My record is watching something like 40 episodes per day. Thats only when I want to make progress though.
rodacSep 19, 2014 9:12 PM
Sep 19, 2014 6:17 AM

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Most of the people I discuss with considers OP above or equal to HxH

just so you know


anyway, give me those "facts" that make op not high qulity
Sep 19, 2014 7:08 AM

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Speaking about the manga I can tell than One Piece is definitely better than Bleach, Naruto and FT. The story is really better and the author manages to create all these little funny moments you don't see in Bleach and Naruto.

Now when it comes to the anime .. I never watched Naruto nor Bleach. I can't really tell. As for One Piece the pacing has been terrible since ... Enies Lobby but as long as the story is great ...

I think OP deserves its spot. 650 episodes and still a great story is quite a feat. With a decent pacing it could be in the top 5

I just wish they redo it from scratch the day it is finished. Reducing the whole thing to ~400 or 500 episodes in HD with decent animations

edit : I checked again. skypea ~50 episodes for 9 books / enies lobby ~90 episodes for 11 books
short_reviewSep 19, 2014 12:28 PM
Sep 19, 2014 7:45 AM

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short_review said:
Speaking about the manga I can tell than One Piece is definitely better than Bleach, Naruto and FT. The story is really better and the author manages to create all these little funny moments you don't see in Bleach and Naruto.

Umm, Bleach and Naruto have comedy in their genre. One Piece just happens to be have more comedy, and embrace it more.
Sep 19, 2014 11:18 AM
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Much to work off...

Most of the people I discuss with considers OP above or equal to HxH

just so you know


Then I feel truly sorry for you, because HxH is prolly one of the Best Anime to currently air. It does have its own problems, but doesn't even need to be compared to the likes of One Piece or Naruto (surprisingly enough I hated HxH for the first 40 episodes myself. Well, whatever.)

anyway, give me those "facts" that make op not high qulity


Then, lets start with battles in general. We have fights from roughly around the same time.



vs



Edit: These are links to youtube, here the originals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8fhckVzHCc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeuND3vAtIs

(I should mention, that I asked some friend woh watched One Piece up to date for some good fight as reference. First of all he was like 'There is no such thing as a good fight in One Piece', and then he gave me this one. I don't know whether this one is good or not, but its pretty similar to the fights in my arc (Enies Lobby) so I thought it might be okay.)

First the Naruto fight: We have a well thought out battle choreography with completely fluent and (thats the most important thing) for its own laws realistical movements. Every damn second of this fight could happen in reality one for one (given that people could use chakra). The battle sounds are also just as realistic, and furthermore they chose an melancholic OST, which just further outlined their former friendship.
Now One Piece: Its shit. Just kidding, I'll do the long one. Stupid octupusthingy attacks Robin. Zoro blocks. Without any movement of course. Theres just a stupid cutscene from 30 Meters distance, with some yellow wavethings being emitted. Then they talk like a minute or so. Then there is some cut, prolly to another fight, whatever. Then... they talk anouther minute. Then that octupus thingy attacks another time, but pls, don't think you'd see some fluent movements, of how he attacks, no no, they just have some swordsprites zooming from top left to bottom right. And then the BLOCK!!! Suddenly Zoros swordsprites start to glow (no you don't get to see Zoro) and then, in the next scene, they both just stand there, and the octupusses swords break. Now, let me ask you: FROM WHAT THE HELL DID THEY BRAKE?! This is just completely copy and pastework. This isn't even an anime, its like 3 pictures with soundeffects. This is the BEST BATTLE SHONEN? Nope, sorry, its not.
But of course, there are some good points to it: The used OST is rather memorable, and the cut might have added to the tension, if used correctly.

Summary, just by pure fighting Naruto is FAR superior to One Piece.
But there is something else. And thats Devil Fruits vs Chakra.
So basically like the Battle System.

This time I start with One Piece: The characters normally have one Devils Fruits' skills, which are like 5 moves in Total. Later on they get haki (don't know if written correctly) and thats it. Thats basically everything the characters are capable of. I won't take the simple way out, that Devils Fruits in itself are full of plotholes, that'd be too simple.
Naruto on the other hand presents us with chakra, which grants us the ability to create illusions (Genjutsu) or use elemental attacks (Ninjutsu). Also we can combine it with our fists (Nin-Tai), or Tools. Of course, as if thats not enough, we have our common Taijutsu, Toolbased fighting like Katanastyle, or Kekkei Genkai, if we want some astonishing strong finishers. (On a sidenote, HxH's nen is even more complex in my oppinion). Of course the history of chakra is completely planned through, from where it started, to now. Sorry, but One Piece just can't match up with that.

Thirdly: Deaths.
Sure, these are Shonen, so they shouldn't use death that much as in Kyojin for example, but in One Piece you can be hit with the sharp side of an axe, in the end you'll just get flung away. None of the characters seem to die at all.
In Naruto on the other side, death is not a common occurence, yes, but its there.
(I did spoiler tag, dunno whether you already know or not.)


They all are rather close to the main cast, but all of them can die. Another sidenote: Rock Lee nearly died against Gaara, and was taken out for 50 episodes, in which they had to find a way to heal him.
In One Piece on the other hand, after being defeated, they just have to eat a steak, and theyre fine again. Hey, even their clothes regenerate. Thats so damn awesome!!.

So much for the facts, ask yourself if this is really a 9 or higher. If people love that series, I can see why theyd give an 8, but if you ask yourself critically, you'll end up somewhere between 6 or 7 points.

---On to the next one---

Speaking about the manga I can tell than One Piece is definitely better than Bleach, Naruto and FT. The story is really better and the author manages to create all these little funny moments you don't see in Bleach and Naruto.

Now when it comes to the anime .. I never watched Naruto nor Bleach. I can't really tell. As for One Piece the pacing has been terrible since ... Enies Lobby but as long as the story is great ...


1: See above
2: Of course there aren't as many funny moments in Bleach and Naruto. Thats because they take themselves serious. At least as long as in the main storyline. Fillers are standalones, which aren't to be found in the manga.
3: i wouldn't give an anime 8 or higher, if half of its lenght is badly paced, but just my two cents.

Edit: thx to rothrock for fast answer :)
Play2XSep 19, 2014 11:37 AM
Sep 19, 2014 11:22 AM

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^It's
Sep 19, 2014 1:02 PM

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Wow you seriously compare one shotting an enemy to one of the best fights that has been done in the shippuuden anime?
I understand that this is anime section, but Kakashi vs Obtio in the manga looked NOTHING like anime version. It's hard to even call it a fight, it was a flashback with some random panels in-between. Choreography was close to zero. It's all on the anime. It was all thanks to the Pierrot that it looks really good. Toei on the other hand shits all over one piece anime and makes fights look lame, while in the reality they tend to have great choreography.

Just look at this fights
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2301-3/one-piece/chapter-194.html

Just look and tell me the choreograpy sucks, just fucking tell me so I can laugh my ass off. It shits all over this Kakashi vs Obito crap from the manga
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/636/4

It's not my fault toei is incompetent.

As for the "battle system" Yeah, it's more complex than in OP, but since Kishimoto has been failing to create an interesting fight since... forever, this argument shouldn't even count. Beisdes, just becasue something is complex it doesn't been it's better.

But anyway, both Naruto and OP fighting parts are just diffrent. Naruto's is more compelx becasue well... Naruto simply put offers less things as a manga. There is story, there are characters and there are fights. That is all. OP has story, characters, fights, adventure, humour and the world. The fights may not have too much tactic and it's all either gimmick or dragon ball, but it doesn't need to thanks to the humour for less serious fights and good choreography for the rest.

Deaths - One Piece has a lot of deaths. Most of them in flashbacks, but when character REALLY needs to die in OP, then he dies. Oda generally doesn't kill in present time, because there is no reason to. It's not an objective fault.
And One Piece is a work or fiction, just becasue character are able to survive very heavy damage it doesn't mean it's an objective fault of the anime, lol.
Yeah Lee dissapeard for 50 episode, then had one fight and Kishimoto threw him to the trash can. Putting so much work into a character and then just ingoring his existance - that's why Naruto is so awesome, right?
Dahaka_Sep 19, 2014 1:06 PM
Sep 19, 2014 1:18 PM
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The anime deserves it MAL rank. The manga should be ranked lower; about the same rank as its anime counterpart.
Sep 19, 2014 1:32 PM
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Wow you seriously compare one shotting an enemy to one of the best fights that has been done in the shippuuden anime?
I understand that this is anime section, but Kakashi vs Obtio in the manga looked NOTHING like anime version. It's hard to even call it a fight, it was a flashback with some random panels in-between. Choreography was close to zero. It's all on the anime. It was all thanks to the Pierrot that it looks really good. Toei on the other hand shits all over one piece anime and makes fights look lame, while in the reality they tend to have great choreography.

Just look at this fights
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2301-3/one-piece/chapter-194.html

Just look and tell me the choreograpy sucks, just fucking tell me so I can laugh my ass off. It shits all over this Kakashi vs Obito crap from the manga
http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/636/4

It's not my fault toei is incompetent.


Just like you said, this IS the anime section. And like I said, I asked a friend of mine, who watched One Piece to the current arc for a good fight, but he warned me that most of the fights right now are one shots. Dumb enough.

However...

As for the "battle system" Yeah, it's more complex than in OP, but since Kishimoto has been failing to create an interesting fight since... forever, this argument shouldn't even count. Beisdes, just becasue something is complex it doesn't been it's better.


Just because you think a fight is not interesting doesn't mean that its not interesting. While naruto lost a lot of its former glory after the pain arcs, the fights are still fun and also good enough to be read every week. I can't talk about the One Piece manga, because I didn't read it. As far as complex being better goes: of course complex doesn't necessary mean better, but in this case its definitely true. The fights of Naruto are just completely superior to the fights in one Piece.

But anyway, both Naruto and OP fighting parts are just diffrent. Naruto's is more compelx becasue well... Naruto simply put offers less things as a manga. There is story, there are characters and there are fights. That is all. OP has story, characters, fights, adventure, humour and the world. The fights may not have too much tactic and it's all either gimmick or dragon ball, but it doesn't need to thanks to the humour for less serious fights and good choreography for the rest.


The adventure seems to me like a petty lie, because in the end its all the same boring pattern. The humour, well I did laugh every once in a while, but if thats One Pieces strong point it certainly is weak. To be honest, the comedy fights are completely boring and one of the main reasons I dislike One Piece. And the World... well, I think Narutos world is nearly on par with the setting of One Piece.

Deaths - One Piece has a lot of deaths. Most of them in flashbacks, but when character REALLY needs to die in OP, then he dies. Oda generally doesn't kill in present time, because there is no reason to. It's not an objective fault.


People in One Piece don't die after being having its throat dismantled by a shotgun. Yeeaah sure.
Also, yes it is Odas fault, if he doesn't kill characters. Life and Death battles are absolutely not intense, if PEOPLE CAN'T F'N DIE TO BEGIN WITH!!!

Yeah Lee dissapeard for 50 episode, then had one fight and Kishimoto threw him to the trash can. Putting so much work into a character and then just ingoring his existance - that's why Naruto is so awesome, right?


You are aware, that he still had some fights in the manga, right? Like vs the 7 Swordsmen. But whatever.
Sep 19, 2014 1:34 PM

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Dahaka_ said:
Wow you seriously compare one shotting an enemy to one of the best fights that has been done in the shippuuden anime?
I understand that this is anime section, but Kakashi vs Obtio in the manga looked NOTHING like anime version. It's hard to even call it a fight, it was a flashback with some random panels in-between. Choreography was close to zero.

Well that's an exaggeration. There was little taijutsu. It's the advantage of the anime, to extend and polish things like this.

Dahaka_ said:

Just look and tell me the choreograpy sucks, just fucking tell me so I can laugh my ass off. It shits all over this Kakashi vs Obito crap from the manga

Lol what's the point of picking a small fight from Naruto, to prove the choreography of one piece fight.

Do you think one piece fights overall have better choreography than Naruto? that's what should be discussed, not two cheery picked examples.

As for the "battle system" Yeah, it's more complex than in OP, but since Kishimoto has been failing to create an interesting fight since... forever

Speak for yourself.

But anyway, both Naruto and OP fighting parts are just diffrent. Naruto's is more compelx becasue well... Naruto simply put offers less things as a manga. There is story, there are characters and there are fights. That is all. OP has story, characters, fights, adventure, humour and the world. The fights may not have too much tactic and it's all either gimmick or dragon ball, but it doesn't need to thanks to the humour for less serious fights and good choreography for the rest.

Pretty skewed view you got there, and a pathetic excuse. Naruto, has worldbuilding, there is comedy in it, it's just not as big of genre in Naruto like one piece, which is a very good thing from my point of view. Story and Characters are the most important aspects anyway.

That's why one piece fights are horrible. Humor ruins the tension, and it doesn't have good choreography from what I've seen.

Deaths - One Piece has a lot of deaths. Most of them in flashbacks, but when character REALLY needs to die in OP, then he dies. Oda generally doesn't kill in present time, because there is no reason to. It's not an objective fault.
And One Piece is a work or fiction, just becasue character are able to survive very heavy damage it doesn't mean it's an objective fault of the anime, lol.
Yeah Lee dissapeard for 50 episode, then had one fight and Kishimoto threw him to the trash can. Putting so much work into a character and then just ingoring his existance - that's why Naruto is so awesome, right?

Death in flashbacks don't really count, and it's like the bottom of the barrel. There is only two important that died in the span of 600+ chapters, death doesn't automatically improves the story, but there have to be some, in order to create impact on the world and characters, and the readers. You say that, but there was no reason for Bell to survive, so no he doesn't kill characters when they should. It's not an objective fault, but it can destroy the suspension of disbelief.

Nice logic and phrasing, so because one character in the series, isn't as relevant anymore, that makes the whole manga bad?

rodacSep 19, 2014 9:13 PM
Sep 19, 2014 1:47 PM

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It deserves, and maybe it can be a little more to the top :p
Sep 19, 2014 1:47 PM

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@tsudecimo for reference, what do you consider "good choreography"?
Sep 19, 2014 1:55 PM

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Good/above average: Hisoka vs Togari
Great: Hisoka vs Gon
Orgasmic level: Bee vs Sasuke, Madara vs alliance, etc
Sep 19, 2014 1:58 PM
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Good/above average: Hisoka vs Togari
Great: Hisoka vs Gon
Orgasmic level: Bee vs Sasuke, Madara vs alliance, etc


I pretty much agree with all of your choices. I actually do agree with all of your choices, screw 'pretty much'.
Sep 19, 2014 2:10 PM

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Sword of the stranger choregraphy <3
Sep 19, 2014 2:23 PM

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This. This is exactly taken from my head. This is the most logical and unbiased comparison of OP to Naruto and it clearly shows which is better. And anyone who denies these facts will only make fools of themselves imo.

I watched only the start of OP, something like 50 eps but there were ton of fights and most of them were absolutely won by brute force and who can scream louder. Dunno. I prefer fights to be intelectual like most of them are in Naruto which are won most of the times by strategy ( but not always ).

And I don't see why on earth people would call OP world buiding stronger or bigger, whatever you call it. They are both pretty unique and awesome, but again Naruto tops OP with it's more complex, darker world, not to mention the whole chackra concept ( IMO ).

Dunno. Not bashing on One Piece, it is rather enjoyable, but I choose Naruto and I don't think One Piece should ever be higher than Naruto. BUT oh well, I guess everyone has personall preference.
Sep 19, 2014 2:44 PM

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Lol what's the point of picking a small fight from Naruto, to prove the choreography of one piece fight.

Do you think one piece fights overall have better choreography than Naruto? that's what should be discussed, not two cheery picked examples.
I don't have time to to check every battle in both of them and make a fair comparison. He picked his example, I picked mine to prove that OP can have much better choreography than Naruto. Depends on the fight.
Naruto, has worldbuilding, there is comedy in it, it's just not as big of genre in Naruto like one piece, which is a very good thing from my point of view.

You didn't get me. When you crate a work that focuses only on one genre, then you must make sure it's really good in it. If your detective story is predictable then it fails as a detective story. When Naruto fails at delivering good plot and good fights (and it does, imo) then it fails as a manga. The humour and the world, even if there, are not enough to make this manga interesting. You're left with characters wandaring around caves and woods and few not-so interesting villages. Which is basically nothing.
With One Piece, even if plot fails, and fights are non existent, you still have plenty of wacky characters, a rich world waiting to be explored and tons of comedy to make you laugh.
Point being, even if OP would have worse plot, characters and fights than Naruto, it' would not mean it's a worse show, because unlike naruto it's not only about story, characters and fights.

That's why one piece fights are horrible. Humor ruins the tension, and it doesn't have good choreography from what I've seen.

Speak for yourself.

Death in flashbacks don't really count, and it's like the bottom of the barrel. There is only two important that died in the span of 600+ chapters, death doesn't automatically improves the story, but there have to be some, in order to create impact on the world and characters, and the readers
. You say that, but there was no reason for Bell to survive, so no he doesn't kill characters when they should. It's not an objective fault, but it can destroy the suspension of disbelief.

And death of those two definietely had an impact, in every possible way, that's why they died. And there surely will be more, but only when it's needed for the story, not for cheap feels.
Pell didn't die, becasue, well, Oda doesn't like to kill characters. It was bullshit, I agree, but the problem lies not in him not dying, but in the fact that Oda make a scenario where he should have died, but didn't.

Nice logic and phrasing, so because one character in the series, isn't as relevant anymore, that makes the whole manga bad?

We both know it's not just one character

The fights of Naruto are just completely superior to the fights in one Piece.

For you. Some people don't want to see characters doing more talking than actual fighting. It's just you opinion.
The adventure seems to me like a petty lie, because in the end its all the same boring pattern. The humour, well I did laugh every once in a while, but if thats One Pieces strong point it certainly is weak. To be honest, the comedy fights are completely boring and one of the main reasons I dislike One Piece. And the World... well, I think Narutos world is nearly on par with the setting of One Piece.

Pattern or not, it's there. Even if not as much as I would like, it's definietely there.
Naruto's world being on par with OP? Seriously? Half of this manga is basically generic caves, plains and forests.
Dahaka_Sep 19, 2014 2:48 PM
Sep 19, 2014 2:47 PM

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Biggest difference with OP and Bleach/Naruto is that it still has much plot to work with which makes it interesting. Naruto could have had that too but destroyed there villains to easily becouse the mankaka probably was out of ideas. Bleach doesn't seem to have very originality lately also. That's what makes OP better in the end. Deal with it.
..
Sep 19, 2014 2:51 PM

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robis798 said:

And I don't see why on earth people would call OP world buiding stronger or bigger, whatever you call it. They are both pretty unique and awesome, but again Naruto tops OP with it's more complex, darker world, not to mention the whole chackra concept ( IMO ).
.

Well, you watched like 50 episodes, no wonder you can't see how OP world and world building are superior.
Sep 19, 2014 2:51 PM
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As far as my knowledge goes the fights in One Piece are practically the same. And since that fight is from the Fishmen Arc it isn't really that old to begin with. If I had to pick the best fight of One Piece I'd go with Luffy vs Lucci, but to be honest, that fight is not that much better, even thought its a 7 on my scorescale.

Secondly: Except the fight Pain vs Naruto all of the fights are on that level. Its not like I picked the best one. I merely picked the latest one.


Edit for next post:


You didn't get me. When you crate a work that focuses only on one genre, then you must make sure it's really good in it. If your detective story is predictable then it fails as a detective story. When Naruto fails at delivering good plot and good fights (and it does, imo) then it fails as a manga. The humour and the world, even if there, are not enough to make this manga interesting. You're left with characters wandaring around caves and woods and few not-so interesting villages. Which is basically nothing.
With One Piece, even if plot fails, and fights are non existent, you still have plenty of wacky characters, a rich world waiting to be explored and tons of comedy to make you laugh.
Point being, even if OP would have worse plot, characters and fights than Naruto, it' would not mean it's a worse show, because unlike naruto it's not only about story, characters and fights.


As you said, in your oppinion.
I think of the story and world as rather dynamic and interesting. If you break it down to that, One Piece would just as well be some generic Islands. And as I mentioned before, One Piece's Brook Jokes are rather... boring. Well, most of the jokes tend to be not my category of humour.


I personally think One Piece is good enough to score somewhere between #1000 and #500, which would be a score of 7,6 to 8. Everything else would be a blabant lie, but anything less would be a joke just as well.

Basically everyone who contributed to this discussion over the course of the last two sides, since I joined the discussion.
VudisSep 20, 2014 5:41 AM
Sep 19, 2014 3:19 PM
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Play2X said:
Basically everyone who contributed to this discussion over the course of the last two sides, since I joined the discussion.
In that case it's still 4 vs 3 in One Piece's favor.
Sep 19, 2014 3:25 PM

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robis798 said:
And I don't see why on earth people would call OP world buiding stronger or bigger, whatever you call it. They are both pretty unique and awesome, but again Naruto tops OP with it's more complex, darker world, not to mention the whole chackra concept ( IMO ).


I'd say the biggest strength of OnePiece is the ability Oda has to introduce characters or concepts or places very very early ... just to use them 400 chapters after. It always gives the feeling Oda knows completely what he is doing. I've not seen that level of anticipation in Naruto or Bleach. There are even characters in One Piece that have been introduced very early and that we still haven't seen ... after 750 chapters !

Plus I think the whole "travel the world to become the kind of pirates one day" looks more appealing to most people than "ninjas fighting in the forest" or "deathgods fighting in the streets" because it means "dream", "travel the world", "adventures" and "complete freedom". Bleach and Naruto don't have that.
Sep 19, 2014 3:27 PM
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I can't say anything for Bleach, I didn't watch it, and it'll take some time til I have time to do so. But at least for naruto I think you're a bit off. Its not so much 'Ninja fighting in the forest' but rather 'Getting acknowledged by your friends/comrades', perhaps also 'not giving up on your friends, whatever might happen' But I think thats basically the same in every Shonen.

As far as 'Oda knows what he does' goes: The only point I'm not to sure about would be Haki. It feels like inserted, because he had no means to defeat logis guys. But Kishimoto is really starting to loose control, that much is true.

Mod Edit: Removed baiting.
VudisSep 20, 2014 5:49 AM
Sep 19, 2014 3:28 PM

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Want to compare that


to this:
VudisSep 20, 2014 5:50 AM
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Sep 19, 2014 3:45 PM
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First to your fights.

In the first one we have Sasuke and Naruto, who try to fight people, that they simply can't defeat, since they are so far superior that they can't even beat them after 3 years of training. Thus most of the fight is used, to show the emotions of those two, after doing everything they could, but still loose horribly.
Nothing wrong with that.
Funny enough your One Piece fight is on the same premise. Luffy uses the same action twice and gets defeated. Luffys Emotions weren't show in the slightest, instead Smoker just smacktalkes, before getting kicked away.

Both have their reasons for being there, but once again, the Naruto one scored better.

Secondly: i still dont base my knowledge on what my friends tell me. I've seen 140 days of anime (and 300 episodes of One Piece, next to 570 Naruto Shippuuden). My oppinion is my own, and as far as I can see you can't get any valid arguments at all.

Mod Edit: Removed baiting.
VudisSep 20, 2014 5:51 AM
Sep 19, 2014 3:45 PM

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tsudecimo said:
Death in flashbacks don't really count, and it's like the bottom of the barrel. There is only two important that died in the span of 600+ chapters, death doesn't automatically improves the story, but there have to be some, in order to create impact on the world and characters, and the readers. You say that, but there was no reason for Bell to survive, so no he doesn't kill characters when they should. It's not an objective fault, but it can destroy the suspension of disbelief.
Wait what? There has to be death in a series to create impact on the world, characters, and the readers? That's bullshit.

You mean not at this point is there an apparent reason. The future is long and it's not uncommon for characters from past arcs to be relevant later.

And bottom of the barrel like Kushina and Minato's?
Sep 19, 2014 3:53 PM

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Play2X said:
First to your fights.

In the first one we have Sasuke and Naruto, who try to fight people, that they simply can't defeat, since they are so far superior that they can't even beat them after 3 years of training. Thus most of the fight is used, to show the emotions of those two, after doing everything they could, but still loose horribly.
Nothing wrong with that.
Funny enough your One Piece fight is on the same premise. Luffy uses the same action twice and gets defeated. Luffys Emotions weren't show in the slightest, instead Smoker just smacktalkes, before getting kicked away.

Both have their reasons for being there, but once again, the Naruto one scored better.

Secondly: i still dont base my knowledge on what my friends tell me. I've seen 140 days of anime (and 300 episodes of One Piece, next to 570 Naruto Shippuuden). My oppinion is my own, and as far as I can see you can't get any valid arguments at all.

First of all: good to see you've admitted that not all Naruto fights have the same level of choreography. It would have been stupid to keep pushing that.

Secondly, it is Sasuke's screaming that shows all the emotion. The fighting just shows that Itachi is superior to the point of ridiculing Sasuke. If you didn't know Sasuke hated Itachi at this point, then SURPRISE: Sasuke hates Itachi. That was nothing new and something we knew all along.
Thirdly: Sasuke also uses the same actions twice.

Fourthly: the choreography in the OP fight was better. That was my entire point. The merits of a fight are completely dependent on the fight itself.

Fifthly: If you missed the hate in Smoker's reaction as the single statement of Luffy's name caused him to launch and almost blindside his own lieutenant, then you are blind. As simple as that.
That was also something we've known all along, and the scene wasn't trying to be the deep well of emotional appeal.

Mod Edit: Removed baiting.
VudisSep 20, 2014 5:57 AM
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Sep 19, 2014 3:56 PM
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I don't think you can say the early Naruto fights were better than the OP ones. All Naruto did was get beaten up because he's a pussy and then get some BS power up from the Kyuubi. Naruto is way too overpowered, even more so than Ichigo. Naruto would have died in the first episode if he didn't have the BS power up of the Kyuubi saving his ass. All Narutos fights were simple, they weren't some advanced mind games. They followed the same 10 steps


Because Luffy's were just one bit better? Besides, all the fights to that point are basically the one in the first episode from above, which is just a hooker for the anime. The next would be vs Haku, when Sasuke got severely wounded (this was a pretty good introduction of the Kyubis power in my oppinion). i don't remember if he used Kyubi during the forest of death, if yes it was against Orochimaru (which he still lost due to being eaten).

First of all: good to see you've admitted that not all Naruto fights have the same level of choreography. It would have been stupid to keep pushing that.


Uhm, what exactly do you expect, if you fight someone around 50 times stronger? That you get to show half of your moveset That you even stand a chance? That you can show some good moves?

Secondly, it is Sasuke's screaming that shows all the emotion. The fighting just shows that Itachi is superior to the point of ridiculing Sasuke. If you didn't know Sasuke hated Itachi at this point, then SURPRISE: Sasuke hates Itachi. That was nothing new and something we knew all along.


At least listen to me. First off, this is the english dub. That one is just as hillarious bad as the german one. Secondy, its not about Sasuke hating Itachi, which is known since episode 2, its about him, after 3 years of training or so, still not being even able to touch him with his strongest and fastest move.

Thirdly: Sasuke also uses the same actions twice.


As mentioned before, its Sasukes strongest and fastest move. If he can't hit him with that, he can't hit him at all.

Fourthly: the choreography in the OP fight was better. That was my entire point. The merits of a fight are completely dependent on the fight itself.


I'm telling you, its not. Smoker basically flew around like a jet, while Luffy wanted to AA him with his move.

Fifthly: If you missed the hate in Smoker's reaction as the single statement of Luffy's name caused him to launch and almost blindside his own lieutenant, then you are blind. As simple as that.
That was also something we've known all along, and the scene wasn't trying to be the deep well of emotional appeal.


Like I said, the logical reaction after training to defeat your enemy would be to feel depressed or angry. luffy is just like 'Oh damn, your staff-weapon got me. to bad.'

Mod Edit: Removed baiting.
VudisSep 20, 2014 6:00 AM
Sep 19, 2014 4:14 PM

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Play2X said:

Uhm, what exactly do you expect, if you fight someone around 50 times stronger? That you get to show half of your moveset That you even stand a chance? That you can show some good moves?

YOU said all the fights in Naruto were the same, so I educated you in simple style why that is impossible, and you are even providing the reasons yourself.
Different opponents have different strengths and abilities, so OBVIOUSLY the choreography will be different, and the objective will be different per case.
Edit: In the end, your statement that "all the fights in Naruto are basically the same" was incredibly wrong.

At least listen to me. First off, this is the english dub. That one is just as hillarious bad as the german one. Secondy, its not about Sasuke hating Itachi, which is known since episode 2, its about him, after 3 years of training or so, still not being even able to touch him with his strongest and fastest move.


A dub hater. This just keeps getting better. And now question time: could it possibly be that the fight between Luffy and Smoker had the same reasoning? Showing that after what he had been through, Luffy still couldn't touch him? Perish the thought!

I'm telling you, its not. Smoker basically flew around like a jet, while Luffy wanted to AA him with his move.

Oh? Where are the complex moves Sasuke supposedly did? It kind of looked to me that he just ran right at Itachi with a glowing hand....and then again. Still much less movement than the Luffy/Smoker fiasco, yet it was more than 3 times as long.
Just some insight as well: a jet doing manoeuvres in the air tends to be more gripping than a kid running in a straight line.

Like I said, the logical reaction after training to defeat your enemy would be to feel depressed or angry. luffy is just like 'Oh damn, your staff-weapon got me. to bad.'

*too bad, not to
Logical according to whom? If you have been watching the series and not realized at this point that that is Luffy's character, then once again: you may as well not watch anything ever.
What you said is tantamount to: Luffy is not Sasuke, but it is awful that he didn't react in the way Sasuke would.

Mod Edit: Removed baiting.
VudisSep 20, 2014 6:02 AM
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Sep 19, 2014 4:21 PM
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To be fair. The weapon sucks Luffy's strength and energy away. He pretty much gets really tired so it would be weird if he got really emotional after getting pinned by it.
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