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Feb 2, 2008 7:49 AM
#1
-The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya- Spoiler Warning: This whole thread will be a spoiler. Those posting here need only spoiler-mark things pertaining to other creations than KyoAni's anime The Melancholy of haruhi Suzumiya (and yes, this means all events in the novels not already covered by the anime are subject to spoiler tagging; smaller details might be exempted though). A modern classic, which spawned a quite profilic fanbase purporting themselves to be members of a religion. Surely, there must be vast riches of topics and subjects to delve into within this cultural phenomenon. There's a God; there's pop-philosophy á la Itsuki; there's technobabble slightly conected to information theory and there's an unconventional main character. So, after it seemed there was general consensus this topic was fruitful and fun, I posted this. Oh I sound so stilted and formal. Beh. I'll post my thoughts once I have put them into a somewhat more elegant and comprehensible prose. |
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Feb 2, 2008 10:58 AM
#2
Well, I don't have a neat thesis prepared, but I thought I'd drop a few thoughts about Kyon. I've always considered Kyon to be (besides an amusing character) very much a filter between the viewer and the events of the show. Obviously the first (broadcast order) episode is actually viewed mostly through his (camera's) eye, and his narration and interior monologue provide the frame for our perception of the rest of the series. I'm tempted to link his namelessness to the Everyman figure (who originates in a medieval play about [every]man's relationship with God). Kyon shares certain similarities with harem/visual novel heroes who find themselves surrounded by pliant girls (Tsuchimi Rin is a good example), but of course Kyon finds himself surrounded by not-so-pliant girls/aliens/time-travellers (and . . . uh . . . Itsuki . . .). Harem heroes are often almost purely there as a vehicle for viewer wish-fulfilment, and are thus fairly characterless Everymen (even more so in a visual novel format, where the player controls the hero). Kyon, by contrast, manages to simultaneously be an Everyman figure and also a well-rounded character with sarcasm which has become, quite frankly, legendary. I imagine this is part of the series' efforts to parody various other genres. Digressing somewhat, TMOHS reminded me strongly of a short story by Philip K. Dick which I read some years ago, in which the hero was accosted by a young woman who - like Haruhi - was God, except that - unlike Haruhi - she was aware of the fact. In any case, she had decided that he was Mr Right and caused him no end of trouble until he wished her out of existence; turns out she wasn't God after all (though the plot suggests that he subconsciously enjoyed the trouble she caused him - hence her existence in the first place). Unfortunately, I've forgotten the title of the story so I can't look it up. The resemblence is probably only coincidental - the human-who-is-God is a rather familiar idea, after all (!) - but it's interesting nonetheless. |
Feb 7, 2008 12:04 AM
#3
The one thing I think is truly interesting is what Kyon actualy represents to Haruhi. Nt just as a love interest, but as an anchor point. She wants to fill her life with amazing things and unusual people, but here is Kyon, the normal everyman, standing ever present despite the madness and chaos. It kind of like this. Everyone, no matter how much we wish for wonderous things, still want stability and normality somewhere. The human mind requires a constant. Or less requires and more desires a constant. A comfort zone of never changing. An island of unyielding common sense is a see of chaos. Kyon, if one is to beleive that the universe is indeed her mental creation, is her wish for at least something to be in the ordinary and boring. Its not to say that she ever wants to be part of the herd. You dn't have to be in the collective flock mentality of mankind to be normal or stable. You just have to be. So which in the end is more important, the all powerful god, or the man that is willing to tell omnipotence to chill out. Thats my two cents and I'm sticking to it. |
zombihead1Feb 7, 2008 12:07 AM
Feb 9, 2008 6:32 PM
#4
nietzsche would've been proud of this post above mine assuming he were an anime fan as for me i love the fact that leuconoe brought up everyman. we just read that at the end of last semester, and kyon is who i though of when reading it. As for me haruhi brings up a few interesting philosophical queries if this woman is god, then doesn't that make her right in all instances...and if we're of the faith that god is always right, then were she to determine grey is now purple, or that rape is now ok do we abide by these tenets? If we know for a fact that she is god and that she is all powerful is she like a dictator holding us all hostage? Do we have to follow god no matter what? as you can probably tell i'm no christian also i found this quote brilliant, "So which in the end is more important, the all powerful god, or the man that is willing to tell omnipotence to chill out." |
Feb 13, 2008 3:58 PM
#5
As I see it, in the world of "Haruhi," Haruhi's status as "god" is different from the traditional western sense of deity. Of course, this assertion is bolstered by the view of deities more common in the Japanese worldview, influenced by both it's indigenous religion and the foreign religions, particularly Buddhism. Also, she is not omnipotent, or if she is she remains, for whatever reason, unable or unwilling to use her power. They describe her status as being unknowing, but were she omnipotent that still fails to adequately explain why she does not have full control over everything she wishes. By the same measure, though, she fits awkwardly into even a Japanese view of deity because she has no knowledge of her own status, and so the notion of "skillful means" also cannot serve as an explanation. As it is said in the series, Haruhi is not god in the traditional sense, but it is a moderately close parallel that serves to translate the situation more easily into our current language. ----- Kyon is a really interesting character, as mentioned above, because he manages to tread an interesting line, and it is clear that the writers were able to parody huge masses of anime without detracting from the series' self-contained worth. By modelling his appearance clearly on prominent and furthermore popular visual novel protagonists, and even using the seiyuu who has acted in several anime adaptations of visual novel games before, they made the parallel clear, but using that stereotype as a framework they adapted and expanded it to create a fully-formed character. |
"A geek is a person, male or female, with an abiding, obsessive, self-effacing, even self-destroying love for something besides status." --D.B. Weiss, Lucky Wander Boy My anime review blog. Many thanks to Alwerien for the claim banner. |
Feb 15, 2008 1:37 PM
#6
Now you see I'd say Haruhi is omnipotent (she does, after all, begin to retcon the universe) but the series' view of the mind is very post-Freud (presumably intentionally so) - it seems to suggest that the conscious Haruhi is not the only Haruhi, and the other Haruhi has agency. But it sounds like you (by which I mean jukugo) know more about Japanese religion than I do (my knowledge being more or less limited to Kamichu and a paragraph in the Rough Guide). I know I tend to shove an occidental religious paradigm onto everthing I read; since I'm currently directing myself towards medieval English lit, this usually works very well :-). |
Feb 16, 2008 3:50 PM
#7
I think the whole "god" thing is not really of much matter. It's just mentioned that she has nearly omnipotent powers. Omnipotence does usually not equal omniscience. However, I think the reason for why she doesn't make it so that aliens, timetravellers and ESPers are immediately obvious to her is much easier. It all depends on what she says about her past, it is very very important, if you ask me. What she mentions is that she always found the people in her class the most interesting, most awesome people, and her own life as well. She just stopped to do so after realising her life was as ordinary as many many other people in Japan (and probably around the world, with slight differences) and that it wasn't special at all. So the more conscious, reasonable part of her decides she needs to have more than that, something really special. And so that is very probably the moment that the world of the series is created in, it would totally coincide with that famous "3 years ago" timeframe. HOWEVER, what I really think she yearns for, unconsciously, is getting back to that time where she found her life really interesting. As her conscious wishes clash with her unconscious ones, aliens etc are created in her vicinity, but such that she doesn't actually notice them. Note that, despite what she says and acts like, she mostly seems rather content with hanging out with the SOS-dan like she does, if it really would be her most important wish to actually meet aliens, it would happen. Just how she doesn't actually wish for someone to die, she doesn't actually wish to live in a completely different strange world. Or at least, not the whole time. I think the point of the series is that, yes, we are all just insignificant specks in the universe, and happen to life our lifes like most anybody else, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a BAD thing. About Kyon: I think she likes him because even though he does not seem to believe in the things Haruhi does, he doesn't just brush her off as a weirdo but actually discusses (half-heartedly at first) her behaviour and ideas with her. He also seems to be the only one who's able to influence her, while everyone else pretty much follows her every whim. He's pretty much her voice of reason, or just in general the voice of reason in this series. It might very well that he was created (or, brought to meet her) just because Haruhi wanted to have an equal talking partner, as most everyone either ignores her as being strange or does exactly what she wants because he's intimidated. Without his "That just can't be true" attitude, the strange events in this series would be less significant, as we Anime fans are all completely used to it. About the last episode: Perhaps that "creation of a new world" was more of a test than anything else.It might make sense. Perhaps Kyon exists solely to show her life's enjoyable without strange nonsense. *shrugs* PS: What do you guys think about the theory that Kyon is actually the one with near omnipotent power? What Itsuki says doesn't necessarily have to be true after all. It could just as well be that he subconciously wants all that stuff to happen, and he actually directly gets to see the results. As opposed to Haruhi. |
Mar 12, 2008 4:21 AM
#9
now then, Kyon as the god? I wonder how long its been since I thought that... oh yeah... I should mention, even though some of the events are similar, Anime adaptions tend to make relationships more obvious and totally more then what they are in the manga or books, I've noticed this only in Mahou Sensai Negima (NadokoXNegi rel) but the fact that it is indeed present in one might lead to the conclusion that it also exsits in another... Kyon indeed appears to like Hauhi, but more as a brat&/child sister way and getting to the age of sexual promiscuity, obviously has rather ecchi/sexy thoughts about both Haruhi and Asahina-san... Where as in the Anime "HE LIKES HER LOOKEE" is what I get... or rather they play it up a lot, where as in the books I'm reading he only slightly enjoys the company she provides and the entertainment release from the obviously boring and normal lifestyle... in opinion, Kyon may be a god... Haruhi may be a victim... Mikuru is obviously the distraction required between the pairing... because... Kyon and Haruhi if left alone long enough (in case you haven't noticed) get annoyed with each other for not talking... or to be more precise for you, they want to talk to each other about every little thing like a good relationship but don't... Might I bring your attention to the obvious fact that without the distraction of the story-line making three new characters... whom happen to be extra ordinary ones... that Kyon and Haruhi would be the only members of the SOS brigade, or whatever you refer to it as, because he is the only one, as mentioned above in previous posts, that talks to her/tries to talk.. Thus logically two talkers, one a little eccentric... Would eventually have gotten together and had a decent side relationship without actually ever requiring to see an extra-ordinary event, to date Haruhi hasn't had one (besides in her dreams of course but still hasn't!) Yet keeps with the brigade and Kyon even though to her nothing happens. In short... without distraction and totally made for each other, Kyon and Haruhi would be, in spite of their own opinions, Lovers... in the love-love sense... not the ecchi sense... Short version: My opinion as above is long here it is again: I think there made for each other, taking out of account the already present attraction, they would have gotten together... With this thought, they share the ability to control the world around them as much as possible for one or two people to have, the fact that 'stuff happens' is solely down to both of their own subconscious desires to investigate such things together... Conclusion: Its a love-love boring normal haram comedy relationship and if it aint obvious after the explanation above that they exist for each other, they may be a problem with you... whatever happens is whatever happens, but it alters not the fact of the lovers loving... like any story-line... but continue to read and watch and observe and comment... because, it still brings up the questions... Are we truly alone in the universe even if we have each other? short answer, mathematically impossible from observations of the universe around us, shorter answer no... Does the lovers know of this factoid? Nope... so they want to be with extra-ordinaries... who knows Haruhi Suzumiya is, victim, offender, lover, alone, together, has friends, is eccentric... anything could happen... Kyon is, Victim, lover, loser, normal, depressed... A SLIDER since Nagato made a new world and he experienced it in Book 4 then worked to reset it. but thats only what I have to say at present, further analysis and observation is required before a conjective desicision is reached... about the question of them being lovers though. they are... about the 'other question' I don't think they have the power to do anything... but between a time-traveller, Esp user with connections and an alien with the power to change the world... those guys make the happenings and Kyon has to deal with it, and Haruhi... if the story ends in no other way then a kiss that stands forming an un-braeakable bond, Haruhi would request a reset to be with Kyon again, even subjecting to a memory wipe and body reset... 15,798 times she repeated summer to be with Kyon but he never realized it until the last time... |
Jul 12, 2008 2:05 AM
#10
Sorry to be dredging up an old topic, but my mind has been ticking away on this for sometime now, or rather since i watched the series again, read through some of the books, and even tried an audio drama of genderbent version for kicks and giggles and some thoughts have really come to mind. Originally I thought Kyon's role was to serve as sort of the ground force to Haruhi, sort of the secretly desired boring part. But I considered this, Kyon used to be a believer in various phenemona like Haruhi, however, he became disillusioned and his belief faded. And comes along one Ms. Suzumiya who did not become disillusion, was just like he was once, the spectre of the real never having touched her heart and mind. And through her being a whatever she may be, he is getting dragged into the things he had long before set aside. In a sense, if Kyon is her creation, its because she wanted to create someone with the same interests. If one considers her as an element of the Divine, then the others in the SOS are lip service and merely trying to appease an upset god, while Kyon is deep down, a true believer and Haruhi wants an equal in this, not just people playing to her whims. Haruhi is trying to restore Kyon's faith in the bizarre while he tries to temper hers with reality, each existing as each others foil. This makes them in a sense the greatest of Rivals, Friends, and possibly lovers if one chooses to consder this as so. Thank you for your time. And good night. |
Aug 16, 2008 8:35 AM
#11
! That kind of contrast between them makes me suddenly get even funkier ideas... What if Kyon and Haruhi are a duo of rivalling/contrasting gods, Yin and Yang of their universe, like Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu of Zorastrian believe. Kyon firmly believes in normal reality and says so while at heart he wishes for nonsense and the bizzarre and Haruhi outwardly hunts for espers, aliens and time travelers but at heart probably only longs for normal everyday fun with friends. Maybe their powers also cancel each other out. I mean, it IS Kyon who always seems to stop her no? Maybe it's not just him convincing Haruhi, but exerting some sort of divine force himself. And even if not, then it is still part of the cosmic contrast theme , because while the other part of the duo has reality warping forces at hand in their confrontation, the other relies on more down-to-earth means to achieve his goal. And probably the only way for both to exist somewhat happily is to have each other existing and thereby causing a more or less stable mix of contrasts to live in. |
Aug 22, 2008 8:01 PM
#12
Aha! And Kyon's power, being the polar opposite of Haruhi's, is that he appears completely normal and undetectable, perfectly camouflaged within Japanese society... whereas Haruhi is easily detectable to anyone with enough power. Fun theory is fun. Honestly though, I've always thought of Kyon and Haruhi as foils of each other. Obviously they are kindred spirits, both seeking the unknown and attempting to break away from the ordinary. At some point in life, they both encountered a critical split between reality and their own desires. However, they dealt with this issue in opposite ways. Kyon compromised and established a normal relationship with the world. Haruhi refused to accept reality and (both consciously and subconsciously) began to mold it to her will. Kyon took the normal route... probably the same route many of us took when we were younger, and hence is easy to identify with. Haruhi, on the other hand, shows us an alternative. Screw reality. It's boring. Make up your own. That seems to be the central point of the story to me - and what elevates it to a 10/10. It's also why I don't like the theory of "Kyon is God"... Kyon seems to represent the viewer, or the normal person, who hasn't (yet) transcended to Haruhi's level. Goddamnit, second season, where are you!? I've been going through withdrawals for like, a year and a half. |
Mar 12, 2011 7:40 PM
#13
I see it in another way. The show says thata everything happens because of Haruhi. But I can't help but to think like this: This is a mahou kanojo/harem series. We have Kyon, the normal guy without any good qualities. He thinks everything is troublesome and says that he wants a normal life. In fact, he convinced hmself that this is how he should libe. But as we all know, he is very bored and wants to do something interesting. Yes, he is the audience surrogate of every lonely anime fan out there. Suddenly, a very cute AND different girl shows up in his life just to shake things up. But not only that, she has powers. That's the story of every mahou kanojo anime there is. Haruhi being super powerful is just an excuse to introduce the sci fi elements that will make his life interesting. She could've been an alien, like Lum. So, what we have is, bored useless guy meets cute and powerful girl that will change his life. Now, they say everybody gathers because of Haruhi, but that's just the plot's excuse. We all know that they gather because Kyon needs his harem. And after the energetic tsundere, we get the ultra cute and clumsy girl and the very quiet Ayanami type. And also, the charming and cool male friend that never gets attention from the girls, so that the viewer can feel good seeing himself as Kyon. So no, Kyon isn't a god, becuase if he was, the fans wouldn't be able to see themselves in him. He has that cynical attitude because of that. The fans know inside that these things won't happen and their lifes will keep being normal, unless they themselves do something. And Kyon doesn't try to change, because if he did, the fans wouldn't be able to relate to him. But hey they can at least dream about a magic girlfriend and a harem... I went around in circles, but I think my point is: Haruhi was never about telling a story about Haruhi's powers. It's just a shounen romance that sells a very old fantasy. I found the 1st season entertaining, but that was because of the sci-fi elements and the order in which they aired the episodes. That was KyoAni's homerun. If they didn't do that, we would have a climax in the 4th episode and 10 more episodes of pure filler. The characters are very boring. None of them grows to be more than stereotypes, except for the little change in Yuki in the movie. And no, the change of heart Kyon has in the movie isn't new. Every harem lead has it. The only different aspects is haruhi's lack of common sense and the fact that Kyon was the one that made 1st contact, which normally is done by the magic girlfriend. Kyon is also unnecesarily rude to his A and B friends and is an asshole that hit girls. |
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