| And that information, that wasnt shown isnt really needed because the illusion from the grail MAKES IT CLEAR that only he and his family will remain and even that is questionable. It isnt hard to understand that your "settings" are nothing like this. |
cabacc2 said: I really like you, cabacc-kun, but u dun goof'd. The Grail has been corrupted and thus will interpret and grant ANY and EVERY wish with MASS DESTRUCTION. Because that's just what Angra Mainyu, the Evil of All Evils, does. Regardless of whether Kerry's ideals were right or wrong, the Grail interpreted and pushed his wish to its logical conclusion, which in Kerry's case happened to completely fall in line with Angra Mainyu's only purpose and function; you know, spread 6 billion curses across the world, kill errbody... Because if you take it upon yourself to keep killing few to save many, at one point you will, without fail, end up being the last one standing. And it could (and would) have worked with any other wish: if, for example the victor had asked for, say, world peace, the Grail would've still found a way to twist that wish so that for it to be granted, it would require everybody to die. A possible explanation that Angra Mainyu could've come up with is something along the lines of: "Conflict is inherent in human nature and human relationships. When the parties involved fail to reach a common understanding with one another, then the use of the force to settle the matter will inevitably be required. War is the logical, natural and most destructive form of the use of the force in the case of a large-scale conflict where neither party succeded in finding a common ground. War burned dreams, lives and civilizations to the ground, but also forged just as many on the ashes of the former. For you to permanently erase war, is to permanently erase conflict. And thus permanently erase mankind. Kill all humans" That's just some random BS I made up on the spot, just to show you that the Grail would work the same in any other circumstances. This is incredibly easier to understand than what you're making it out to be. |
SapewlothAug 31, 2014 10:44 AM
| Proud founder of The Official Anti-Ging Freecss Fan Club Join now! Kellhus said: GuusWayne said: there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat. |
cabacc2 said: cabacc2 said: you didnt understand me. What I said, is that you cannot use Kerry's parameters to cause the maximal death count. You have to leave some essential things out or misinterpret them, in every other case you end up at this function: but I already said that. The grail has to misinterpret Kerry's way to make it "bad", which is not what we saw when Kerry was inside the grail. What the grail did when it talked to Kerry, was confronting him with unfavorable scenarios and applied Kerry's way to them, which of course lead to supposedly bad outcomes. However, the fact that the outcomes looked so bad, is not because Kerry's method is unfavorable. It was because the scenario was unfavorable (frikkin holes everywhere). Killing the minority over and over again was still the best option in the given scenario. As I said. Its like the choice Kill 600/1000 or 700/1000. The number of sacrifices exceeds the number of saved people, thus making the result seem bad. But in the end, 400 > 300 (or 600 < 700). lets sum this up 1. if the grail takes the essential parts of Kerry's method, it necessarily ends up having the described function 2. if it has the described function, it cannot cause a bad outcome for humanity, if it does not a) activate in non life vs. life scenarios (fuck up people even when there are no holes) b) somehow create life vs. life scenarios (open up the holes artificially) Conclusion: the grail would not stop the suffering, it would minimize the damage in life vs. life scenarios. It would minimize the suffering every time such a situation occurs. This would self-evidently not lead to humanity going extinct. If it would lead to humanity going extinct, humanity would be extinct already (since the status quo is a non damage minimized reality). personal conclusion: Kerry got tricked into thinking that his methods are unfavorable, because they lead to supposedly bad outcomes in unfavorable situations so a) applies, which makes the grail bad nice how they never show it that way in Fate/Zero, the anime. Fate/Zero made exactly on thing clear: thats what it said, thats what it showed Kerry. if it would only activate in said life vs. life situations, like it was shown in the anime (yes, Kerry's illusion showed exactly that: life vs. life situations), then it would be good. since setting 1 > setting 2, this applies to repeated setting 1 > repeated setting 2 as well. setting 1 with grail life vs life scenario encountered , its A vs. B B > A grail chooses B to survive A gets sacrificed setting 2 without grail live vs life scenario encountered, its Avs. B B > A no grail there to choose, anything might happen A gets sacrificed (optimal) or B gets sacrificed (suboptimal) or A & B get sacrificed (both boats sink. worst) But yeah, all of that doesnt apply, because a) seems to be true (information I had no access to because I didnt see or read F/SN) Lemme try. There is no life vs life scenario. There is no A vs B. It would not only activate in life vs life situations. It doesn't know what that means (hell I don't know what that means) and it doesn't care. The Grail is as powerful as it is evil. It will twist your wish somehow into "nuke everything". |
| seems so. thats not what they showed in F/Z though |
| For fuck sake watch the entire dream scene and not just this part. What the anime showed is that the grail would kill everyone except his family.THE END. No need for FSN info or overthinking irrelevant things. |
| Have you ever thought of the possibility that Iri-Angra Mainyu is just trying to mess with Kiritsugu's head and Kiritsugu didn't buy that crap? Kiritsugu wasn't dumb, because the Einzberns told him how the Grail is supposed to work. It's supposed to be a colorless wish-granting machine. The moment AM revealed the Grail has a will and a desire now, Kiritsugu was alerted. AM's desire is to be born. And when Kiritsugu asks how the Grail is then trying to realize his wish, AM basically shows him a dream sequence where everyone dies, except Ilya, Iri and him. That scene isn't hard to understand. If Angra Mainyu is born, mankind dies. That is what the anime showed. You are thinking too much. |
| To be fair Iri-Angra Mainyu has nothing to gain by messing with his head INTENTIONALLY. Iri's "fake" understanding of his ideals must have messed up the dream. |
C-Core said: Have you ever thought of the possibility that Iri-Angra Mainyu is just trying to mess with Kiritsugu's head and Kiritsugu didn't buy that crap? Kiritsugu wasn't dumb, because the Einzberns told him how the Grail is supposed to work. It's supposed to be a colorless wish-granting machine. The moment AM revealed the Grail has a will and a desire now, Kiritsugu was alerted. AM's desire is to be born. And when Kiritsugu asks how the Grail is then trying to realize his wish, AM basically shows him a dream sequence where everyone dies, except Ilya, Iri and him. That scene isn't hard to understand. If Angra Mainyu is born, mankind dies. That is what the anime showed. You are thinking too much. AM also has no identity or personality, apart from ill intent, so he CAN'T "play games" like that. It can't create some elaborate lie in this form. IT can only use the tools GIVEN to him by those who wish and the forms it takes. So yes, it would "implement" Kerry's ideal, but it would implement the most negative version of it that goes beyond human conscience or human capability. THus Everyone dies. AM-Iris is pretty much capable as much as real-Iris is. ANd for that read ssjokg post. |
 |
| I am not saying AM played games, he made it very clear that he has his own will and desire. Yet the personality he took still talked crap to Kiritsugu because Kiritsugu wanted a different kind of miracle, Iri-AM showed him the realization of Kiritsugu's wish and then asked him to wish for it and kill everyone besides his family. And yes, AM lied at least once, when he said he is Irisviel and Kiritsugu immediately called it bullshit. Only then did he reveal, that he took Iri's personality. |
CapsuleCoreAug 31, 2014 12:38 PM
| But that was indeed Iri.Not the one that lived with him and died but a "perfect" copy of her in and out.Even if "she" is self aware that she isnt the one he lived with "she" still recognizes herself as Iri.Her pain for Ilya's death and hate for Kiritsugu were genuine. |
| It is still a mask Angra Mainyu took, so even a 100% perfectly acting Iri is not the same thing. Kiritsugu instinctively understood what you're explaining, but it is not the exact Iri. That one is dead. |
C-Core said: It is still a mask Angra Mainyu took, so even a 100% perfectly acting Iri is not the same thing. Kiritsugu instinctively understood what you're explaining, but it is not the exact Iri. That one is dead. Isnt that what I said? |
C-Core said: It is still a mask Angra Mainyu took, so even a 100% perfectly acting Iri is not the same thing. Kiritsugu instinctively understood what you're explaining, but it is not the exact Iri. That one is dead. Except it is. AM has no identity nor personality, so the personality it takes is who it is, case in point . It reaches into the records and copies the personality over to communicate. AM taking up identity is no more of a mask than we being born and forming our personality is. It is not "Iris" but its identical to Iris in every way possible, so her reactions and her thoughts are everything Iris would be or do. |
|
ssjokg said: C-Core said: It is still a mask Angra Mainyu took, so even a 100% perfectly acting Iri is not the same thing. Kiritsugu instinctively understood what you're explaining, but it is not the exact Iri. That one is dead. Isnt that what I said? It is. I just wanted to clarify that I don't completely see it as Iri. Fai said: C-Core said: It is still a mask Angra Mainyu took, so even a 100% perfectly acting Iri is not the same thing. Kiritsugu instinctively understood what you're explaining, but it is not the exact Iri. That one is dead. Except it is. AM has no identity nor personality, so the personality it takes is who it is, case in point . It reaches into the records and copies the personality over to communicate. AM taking up identity is no more of a mask than we being born and forming our personality is. Which I am aware of. It is not "Iris" but its identical to Iris in every way possible, so her reactions and her thoughts are everything Iris would be or do. Oh c'mon, that is again a way to interpret things like what I see as a projected Excalibur or not. It's not the exact Iri to me and Iri-AM was not 100% truthful at first, which I already count as lying. |
| My simple question became a huge debate thread, LOL. That's the power of any of Urobuchi's works for you" Lots of debating . . . Carrry on. |
"Fuck this shit, fun things are fun!" |
| Urobuchi has nothing to do with it. |
| But, he wrote Fate Zero Right? ._. |
| "Fuck this shit, fun things are fun!" |
| Kiritsugu's ideal and how the grail works and a bunch of other stuff in FZ is from Nasu. |
| Butcher wrote Alexander, Serial-killer-kun and few other bits. Most of lore, in-universe things, character motivations, personalities, ideals, etc, have been written before this by Kinoko Nasu. Butcher just fleshed it out for the prequel, along the guidelines Nasu gave him. |
|
| RIIIIIIIIIDDDDDDEEEEERRRRR<3 and Pedophile kun That is very interesting knowledge to know though. |
| "Fuck this shit, fun things are fun!" |
| Ok now I am thinking that some people will seriously start talking about Urobuchi in F/SN 2014 threads .__. |
 |
| F/Z is practically one giant fanfic. |
fst said: F/Z is practically one giant fanfic. Still canon XD |
fst said: F/Z is practically one giant fanfic. It's fiction written by a fan, but that's where the comparison with the "usual" fanfictions ends. And MAL is messed up again, I see. |
| It started out as a doujin, didn't it? |
| The first volumes were released and published by Notes Co., Ltd. (aka Type-Moon), a commercial game company, they weren't self-published, as in published by Urobuchi or Nasu, or published under a doujin circle. |
CapsuleCoreSep 2, 2014 4:10 PM
| Isn't it basically just self-published fanfiction though? I mean a lot of it is heavy on the smut, just like fanfiction. |
| Self-published means solely by the author here, not by a company. One example would be Reki Kawahara, who self-published several doujins of his works under another pen name, and sold them at Comiket. Fate/Zero was an official collaboration work between Nitroplus Co., Ltd and Notes Co., Ltd. I wouldn't see that as simple fanfiction. |
CapsuleCoreSep 2, 2014 4:27 PM
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