Attack on Titan
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May 31, 2014 5:51 PM
#41
Lol, then you did get a lot of things wrong because much of what you said are based on your perception not facts. The demographic with the most mass appeal isn't seinen but shounen series in the manga/anime industry. This is particularly noticeable especially if you check out what types of manga and anime that actually sells and you would realised huge majority of them are aimed towards the shounen demographic (I track anime and manga sales all the time because I wanted to know my fav series is doing). Even EVA is shounen as well. In fact, all the best selling manga of all time are shounen - one piece, dragon ball, hunter x hunter, rurouni kenshin, etc. See what I meant? The ones I mentioned are only portion of it too. Seinen/Josei series usually never sell as much as the shoujo/shounen partly because most people enjoy light hearted series as their source of entertainment. If you actually interact with other anime fans regularly particularly the female fans in general, then you'd realised many of them don't really watch much horror genre to the likes of berserk type but ghost hunt and another was fine. And yeah that's what I meant for berserk, the series is not so much about making you getting attach to the characters since it's main gripping point is its dark fantasy universe coupled with many interesting casts. Interesting, great cast of characters =/= making you emotionally invested in them. Big difference. I think there was only a couple of moments here and there but that's about it. The series doesn't really focus on its emotional element hence not many people actually felt sympathetic towards the character since all the tragedy that ever happens only works to create that sense of fear, terror and shock. It's exactly like the one you just mentioned. It's just disturbing, it doesn't make you feel depress and go "omg......I feel so bad for the wife, why did it have to happen to her?". I was left with shock when Griffith did THAT to Casca, there was no time for sympathy, just left me with excitement and questions like "omg what's going to happen now and what in the world is happening, how are they going to get out of this alive". Also about the 6 month for a new berserk chapter isn't a typical thing, it just that the author didn't wanted to work/have issues with working and stress that he ended up focusing on his personal life to get out of that. I kept hearing rumours about him being obsess with idolmaster and gaming. That's very understandable but professionally that's just poor work ethic and inexcusable especially when you have someone like Eiichiro Oda who's working so hard to release a new chapter every week until his health deteriorate ;(. |
EstherellaJun 7, 2014 3:08 AM
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Jun 6, 2014 4:31 PM
#42
Eren and Mikasa almost died and I think that's what hooked people, having the main characters be killed off so fast was honestly as bad as it sounds so entertaining I wanted to see how many plot twists i'd experience with the series and got hooked. You're not used tot that, that type of plot is what put SNK in the forefront. Blame fans more main characters would be killed off but fans would loose their shit. My bets are everyone will die but Armin and Eren/ |
Jun 7, 2014 4:50 PM
#43
Esthrella said: Lol, then you did get a lot of things wrong because much of what you said are based on your perception not facts. The demographic with the most mass appeal isn't seinen but shounen series in the manga/anime industry. This is particularly noticeable especially if you check out what types of manga and anime that actually sells and you would realised huge majority of them are aimed towards the shounen demographic (I track anime and manga sales all the time because I wanted to know my fav series is doing). Even EVA is shounen as well. In fact, all the best selling manga of all time are shounen - one piece, dragon ball, hunter x hunter, rurouni kenshin, etc. See what I meant? The ones I mentioned are only portion of it too. Seinen/Josei series usually never sell as much as the shoujo/shounen partly because most people enjoy light hearted series as their source of entertainment. If you actually interact with other anime fans regularly particularly the female fans in general, then you'd realised many of them don't really watch much horror genre to the likes of berserk type but ghost hunt and another was fine. I know that Shounens are the highest seller, I just thought that Seinens would have more appeal(Especially between people who are not used to the medium) because it have no "rules". But in practice I can't get any example except "I showed my mom Monster and she loved it". Estherella said: And yeah that's what I meant for berserk, the series is not so much about making you getting attach to the characters since it's main gripping point is its dark fantasy universe coupled with many interesting casts. Interesting, great cast of characters =/= making you emotionally invested in them. Big difference. I think there was only a couple of moments here and there but that's about it. The series doesn't really focus on its emotional element hence not many people actually felt sympathetic towards the character since all the tragedy that ever happens only works to create that sense of fear, terror and shock. It's exactly like the one you just mentioned. It's just disturbing, it doesn't make you feel depress and go "omg......I feel so bad for the wife, why did it have to happen to her?". I was left with shock when Griffith did THAT to Casca, there was no time for sympathy, just left me with excitement and questions like "omg what's going to happen now and what in the world is happening, how are they going to get out of this alive". Also about the 6 month for a new berserk chapter isn't a typical thing, it just that the author didn't wanted to work/have issues with working and stress that he ended up focusing on his personal life to get out of that. I kept hearing rumours about him being obsess with idolmaster and gaming. That's very understandable but professionally that's just poor work ethic and inexcusable especially when you have someone like Eiichiro Oda who's working so hard to release a new chapter every week until his health deteriorate ;(. I don't think I can agree with "not being invested in the characters", I don't really think that the Eclipse would have such an affect on me if I wasn't invested in the characters who suffered it. Miura actually wrote a complete manga in those 6 months, lol, but I haven't read it yet (It's really short, 6/7 chapters I think).I used to think that the whole Miura playing idolmaster was a joke before I found out that he designed an Vocaloid, maybe he really have a place for moe in his heart :) I don't think he takes so much time to make a new chapter because he's lazy, I just can't call someone who draw like that a lazy person. |
Jun 7, 2014 8:48 PM
#44
FrancWyvern said: I know that Shounens are the highest seller, I just thought that Seinens would have more appeal(Especially between people who are not used to the medium) because it have no "rules". But in practice I can't get any example except "I showed my mom Monster and she loved it". Not really. I can see what you meant but like I have stated before, seinen and shounen means nothing at all, it's just merely demographics. There's no less or more broader appeal, seinen is aimed towards the mature audience thus the reason why adults can take a liking to it but even then that alone doesn't mean much. As much as there are lot of seinen series that are very mature and in depth, there are also as much shit ones as well and one that does not even fit the definition of "mature". Many of those series whether it'd be anime/manga still utilize some troupes and conventions that throw ordinary people off so unless they can get passed that, there's nothing that could change their mindset. For example, there's the thing about characters's monologue all the time, characters reiterating their goals / ambition /decisions, talking during action scenes, characters with usual/whacky personality, naive protagonist, etc. It's not a bad thing to use troupe and convention but it all depends on they're going to use it but in some cases people can't get pass that because of cultural differences (particularly comedy series, what people in japan find as humorous may not translate the same for the western demographic). It's actually one of the very few reasons that anime fans in their late 30s and 40s are dropping out of anime and find them not as appealing anymore (outside of japan). Some people are experiencing that phase of "falling out of anime" rather than the problems with the show itself and that's not really surprising, it just happens. In addition, there is always that mindset of "if I am going to watch something intelligent and serious, I would watch live actions series instead, why bother with anime?" Let's face it, as much as we would like to admit that anime can be intelligent and mature, it's not really like that because all these shows uses typical anime conventions and troupes that's holding them back from reaching that state of what people can terminally refer to "deep, mature and intelligent." At the same time, it is exactly because of those troupes and conventions that anime fans love about anime. That's also the same reason why i begin loving anime anyway, i didn't go for anime because it is mature, it was just the aesthetics and the conventions that really intrigues me. But otherwise can you honestly say that there are anime shows that are on the same equivalent level as shows like the breaking bad, boardwalk empire and the game of thrones? I personally can't...and my parents cant get into anime for the very same reason. ;/ I think non-anime viewers who came into the show expecting entertainment can easily get into the medium as opposed to the non-anime viewers who came into the show expecting maturity, intelligence and depth then they might end up finding disappointment. Also that example of "Monster" that you gave me isn't really a good one mainly because the series itself have a westernised settings and realistic conventions that really give off that feel of it being an American series/HBO series. Not many seinen series are like that at all unfortunately and it's one of the very rare one that actually mobilise western settings (names,place,culture,etc) very effectively (Wonder if Naoki Urasawa watches lot of american shows? :3). I think Monster is a great anime series in its genre but i have my fair share of problems due to the fact that the series potential is being held back because of what it is (anime) and I could see it being much better. I've even heard Monster is going to get a live action adaption in America and the fact that they are doing that means they are recognizing the potential of the series. Though whether they could explore the full potential of the story is a whole issue together. Also, did you ever notice that most anime series that do very well in the west in general (reception, popularity) tends to be very westernised? Example, Cowboy Bebop, Fullmetal Alchemist, Gundam Wing, Robotech (It was a pretty big thing back in the late 80s to early 90s), Pokemon (as funny as it sounds but yeah everyone knows them) and recently Shingeki no Kyojin. Whereas Japanese settings tend to never do as well as those kind and it's quite a massive feat for them to accomplish that. The closest I could think of is Evangelion and Rurouni Kenshin but even then i don't even know if it's as highly acclaimed with the general public as Cowboy Bebop. FrancWyvern said: I don't think I can agree with "not being invested in the characters", I don't really think that the Eclipse would have such an affect on me if I wasn't invested in the characters who suffered it. I think we can leave it here at this point mainly because of subjective opinions, I personally believe the nature of the series's universe is dark, cruel, savage, and gritty thus the focus on gore, violence and horror more than anything which is why i think I found it to be such a difficult task to be invested in the characters aside from the main cast. I found the supporting cast's development to be 'fine', but nothing too glaring in that respect. The same thing could be said for the romance development, it's quite icky but acceptable. IT's very understandable given the fact that if the series attempts to focus too much on the emotional aspects then the series will run the risk of losing its dark and gritty effects along the way. There's no author/artist in this world that could just throw in anything he wants without considering how it'll affect the series thus the reason why it is so important to develop the plot elements, plot devices and character's personality properly to ensure that it can effectively convey that mood. Imagine what happens if Miura add comedic elements into the series? It'll take away all the serious moments wouldn't it? At this point isn't too much of a big issue since we can all agree that Berserk is a great series. :) ><; FrancWyvern said: Miura actually wrote a complete manga in those 6 months, lol, but I haven't read it yet (It's really short, 6/7 chapters I think).I used to think that the whole Miura playing idolmaster was a joke before I found out that he designed an Vocaloid, maybe he really have a place for moe in his heart :) I don't think he takes so much time to make a new chapter because he's lazy, I just can't call someone who draw like that a lazy person. Lol, i think you are misunderstanding what i said. I said he have bad work ethics but that does not meant he is lazy. There's a fine line between them. By bad ethics, I am referring to how after 20+ years of berserk serialisation, the series just keep on going on hiatus and the author doesn't seem to be ending it anytime soon. That's my main issue with it. It's like what happened to D.N angel, the series went on infinite hiatus because the author wants to start a new project and she is infamous for dropping her project all the time midway through and never got around finishing them. Kentaro Miura isn't as bad as her and there's no doubt that he is a fine artist and great author himself but in terms of work ethic, that's pretty piss poor. But it's his work, so he can do whatever he wants but keeping fans hanging like that for so long I don't think that's a good thing. I also know that he did a six-chapter series last year and it's definitely a sign that he feels like working again but I hope this time there ain't going to be anymore hiatus. I think it's about time for the author to wrap things up for Berserk, as good as the series is, everything has to end and nothing good will come out of it if the author doesn't know what he's going to do with it the longer he tries to prolong it. I'm also getting the feeling that he's itching to start a new series. For any creative person whether it'd be an artist/creator/inventor, it really sucks when you have to stick with an idea/project for so damn long and it's not even close to completion, you'll eventually lead to that stage where any sense of motivation and dedications to the work gets throw out of the window along the way and what normally happens is you ended up wasting lot of your time and not accomplishing much and that really SUCKS A LOT. |
EstherellaJun 7, 2014 9:50 PM
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Jun 23, 2014 10:03 AM
#45
Estherella said: Not really. I can see what you meant but like I have stated before, seinen and shounen means nothing at all, it's just merely demographics. There's no less or more broader appeal, seinen is aimed towards the mature audience thus the reason why adults can take a liking to it but even then that alone doesn't mean much. As much as there are lot of seinen series that are very mature and in depth, there are also as much shit ones as well and one that does not even fit the definition of "mature". Many of those series whether it'd be anime/manga still utilize some troupes and conventions that throw ordinary people off so unless they can get passed that, there's nothing that could change their mindset. For example, there's the thing about characters's monologue all the time, characters reiterating their goals / ambition /decisions, talking during action scenes, characters with usual/whacky personality, naive protagonist, etc. It's not a bad thing to use troupe and convention but it all depends on they're going to use it but in some cases people can't get pass that because of cultural differences (particularly comedy series, what people in japan find as humorous may not translate the same for the western demographic). It's actually one of the very few reasons that anime fans in their late 30s and 40s are dropping out of anime and find them not as appealing anymore (outside of japan). Some people are experiencing that phase of "falling out of anime" rather than the problems with the show itself and that's not really surprising, it just happens. In addition, there is always that mindset of "if I am going to watch something intelligent and serious, I would watch live actions series instead, why bother with anime?" Let's face it, as much as we would like to admit that anime can be intelligent and mature, it's not really like that because all these shows uses typical anime conventions and troupes that's holding them back from reaching that state of what people can terminally refer to "deep, mature and intelligent." At the same time, it is exactly because of those troupes and conventions that anime fans love about anime. That's also the same reason why i begin loving anime anyway, i didn't go for anime because it is mature, it was just the aesthetics and the conventions that really intrigues me. But otherwise can you honestly say that there are anime shows that are on the same equivalent level as shows like the breaking bad, boardwalk empire and the game of thrones? I personally can't...and my parents cant get into anime for the very same reason. ;/ I think non-anime viewers who came into the show expecting entertainment can easily get into the medium as opposed to the non-anime viewers who came into the show expecting maturity, intelligence and depth then they might end up finding disappointment. Also that example of "Monster" that you gave me isn't really a good one mainly because the series itself have a westernised settings and realistic conventions that really give off that feel of it being an American series/HBO series. Not many seinen series are like that at all unfortunately and it's one of the very rare one that actually mobilise western settings (names,place,culture,etc) very effectively (Wonder if Naoki Urasawa watches lot of american shows? :3). I think Monster is a great anime series in its genre but i have my fair share of problems due to the fact that the series potential is being held back because of what it is (anime) and I could see it being much better. I've even heard Monster is going to get a live action adaption in America and the fact that they are doing that means they are recognizing the potential of the series. Though whether they could explore the full potential of the story is a whole issue together. Also, did you ever notice that most anime series that do very well in the west in general (reception, popularity) tends to be very westernised? Example, Cowboy Bebop, Fullmetal Alchemist, Gundam Wing, Robotech (It was a pretty big thing back in the late 80s to early 90s), Pokemon (as funny as it sounds but yeah everyone knows them) and recently Shingeki no Kyojin. Whereas Japanese settings tend to never do as well as those kind and it's quite a massive feat for them to accomplish that. The closest I could think of is Evangelion and Rurouni Kenshin but even then i don't even know if it's as highly acclaimed with the general public as Cowboy Bebop. Ok, I really have to disagree with you here. Legend of the Galactic Heroes makes GoT looks like Twilight, The Tatami Galaxy and NHK are also great but there are troops that can make it look a bit "weird" to some people, but I don't really think they are holding them back. I don't watch that many anime but I can easily make an extensive list of mangas that are serious and deeps and can really beat a lot of western shows and movies, here are some examples: Berserk, Sanctuary, Homunculus, Vagabond, Vinland Saga, anything Urasawa does, etc... All with an serious mood, deep characters and story lines and little to none of the "annoying troops". Estherella said: I think we can leave it here at this point mainly because of subjective opinions, I personally believe the nature of the series's universe is dark, cruel, savage, and gritty thus the focus on gore, violence and horror more than anything which is why i think I found it to be such a difficult task to be invested in the characters aside from the main cast. I found the supporting cast's development to be 'fine', but nothing too glaring in that respect. The same thing could be said for the romance development, it's quite icky but acceptable. IT's very understandable given the fact that if the series attempts to focus too much on the emotional aspects then the series will run the risk of losing its dark and gritty effects along the way. There's no author/artist in this world that could just throw in anything he wants without considering how it'll affect the series thus the reason why it is so important to develop the plot elements, plot devices and character's personality properly to ensure that it can effectively convey that mood. Imagine what happens if Miura add comedic elements into the series? It'll take away all the serious moments wouldn't it? At this point isn't too much of a big issue since we can all agree that Berserk is a great series. :) ><; Yeah, I think this is kind of subjective to discuss. Estherella said: Lol, i think you are misunderstanding what i said. I said he have bad work ethics but that does not meant he is lazy. There's a fine line between them. By bad ethics, I am referring to how after 20+ years of berserk serialisation, the series just keep on going on hiatus and the author doesn't seem to be ending it anytime soon. That's my main issue with it. It's like what happened to D.N angel, the series went on infinite hiatus because the author wants to start a new project and she is infamous for dropping her project all the time midway through and never got around finishing them. Kentaro Miura isn't as bad as her and there's no doubt that he is a fine artist and great author himself but in terms of work ethic, that's pretty piss poor. But it's his work, so he can do whatever he wants but keeping fans hanging like that for so long I don't think that's a good thing. I also know that he did a six-chapter series last year and it's definitely a sign that he feels like working again but I hope this time there ain't going to be anymore hiatus. I think it's about time for the author to wrap things up for Berserk, as good as the series is, everything has to end and nothing good will come out of it if the author doesn't know what he's going to do with it the longer he tries to prolong it. I'm also getting the feeling that he's itching to start a new series. For any creative person whether it'd be an artist/creator/inventor, it really sucks when you have to stick with an idea/project for so damn long and it's not even close to completion, you'll eventually lead to that stage where any sense of motivation and dedications to the work gets throw out of the window along the way and what normally happens is you ended up wasting lot of your time and not accomplishing much and that really SUCKS A LOT. I misunderstood you there, sorry. I too hope we can have at least monthly chapters, oh, and that he actually manages to finish the manga. |
Jun 24, 2014 1:52 AM
#46
FrancWyvern said: Ok, I really have to disagree with you here. Legend of the Galactic Heroes makes GoT looks like Twilight, The Tatami Galaxy and NHK are also great but there are troops that can make it look a bit "weird" to some people, but I don't really think they are holding them back. I don't watch that many anime but I can easily make an extensive list of mangas that are serious and deeps and can really beat a lot of western shows and movies, here are some examples: Berserk, Sanctuary, Homunculus, Vagabond, Vinland Saga, anything Urasawa does, etc... All with an serious mood, deep characters and story lines and little to none of the "annoying troops". Thanks for the recommendations, I'll be sure to check them out. I'm not going to comment on those series that you've just listed because i haven't seen them even though I've heard great things about them. :) I should probably apologize for saying that anime/manga can't be mature because they can actually be very good and mature IF THEY TRIED TO BE. It's just that whenever i think of anime as a whole and in general; 'mature' and 'intelligent' was probably the furthest thing i could use to describe anime. Not that anime have to be intelligent and mature all the time to be good, but i would assume that if there were more series like those, maybe the general public can change their perceptions about the whole medium. Especially in the case of anime, because many and MANY of them never ever get a conclusive ending (berserk); either that or they completely deviate from the main story and fucked up the ending (claymore). To have a good story, no ending and bad ending is a big no no. From what I've seen, roughly 80% of anime series that i've seen are like that :C....Needless to say that there are abundant of non-mature ones which sometimes can be very misleading to non-anime people. (P.S manga>anime :D ) Unfortunately, not much studios nowadays are willing to experiment with original story and thus the reason why there's a lack of originality while huge amount of light novel and manga series made into anime adaption because it's less risky. :( :( :( Also.......I think we are deviating from the topic too much....XD) |
EstherellaJun 24, 2014 1:58 AM
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Jul 1, 2014 11:22 AM
#47
Estherella said: FrancWyvern said: Ok, I really have to disagree with you here. Legend of the Galactic Heroes makes GoT looks like Twilight, The Tatami Galaxy and NHK are also great but there are troops that can make it look a bit "weird" to some people, but I don't really think they are holding them back. I don't watch that many anime but I can easily make an extensive list of mangas that are serious and deeps and can really beat a lot of western shows and movies, here are some examples: Berserk, Sanctuary, Homunculus, Vagabond, Vinland Saga, anything Urasawa does, etc... All with an serious mood, deep characters and story lines and little to none of the "annoying troops". Thanks for the recommendations, I'll be sure to check them out. I'm not going to comment on those series that you've just listed because i haven't seen them even though I've heard great things about them. :) I should probably apologize for saying that anime/manga can't be mature because they can actually be very good and mature IF THEY TRIED TO BE. It's just that whenever i think of anime as a whole and in general; 'mature' and 'intelligent' was probably the furthest thing i could use to describe anime. Not that anime have to be intelligent and mature all the time to be good, but i would assume that if there were more series like those, maybe the general public can change their perceptions about the whole medium. Especially in the case of anime, because many and MANY of them never ever get a conclusive ending (berserk); either that or they completely deviate from the main story and fucked up the ending (claymore). To have a good story, no ending and bad ending is a big no no. From what I've seen, roughly 80% of anime series that i've seen are like that :C....Needless to say that there are abundant of non-mature ones which sometimes can be very misleading to non-anime people. (P.S manga>anime :D ) Unfortunately, not much studios nowadays are willing to experiment with original story and thus the reason why there's a lack of originality while huge amount of light novel and manga series made into anime adaption because it's less risky. :( :( :( Also.......I think we are deviating from the topic too much....XD) It's true that there's an lack of serious anime this days, and that many (I would say most) mangas that get adapted get no ending or end with a filler, with generally sucks :/ No that an anime have to be mature to be good, as you said. I too prefer manga :P It's difficult to find something new that has no school, moe or harem. Yeah, i guess we deviated from the subject a little, haha :) |
Jul 22, 2014 10:27 PM
#48
Yeah, really. None of the cast that matters has died. Now I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it does confuse me as to why people give AoT the "all your favorite characters will die!" reputation when it really doesn't fit said reputation at all. At least, not yet. |
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