About Plot Armor (Spoilers inside, discuss at your own risk)

keragamming said:


No you're the one who needs to go. You're clearly no a fan of snk. So you should leave snk discussion thread.

keragamming said:


No you're the one who needs to go. You're clearly no a fan of snk. So you should leave snk discussion thread.

Go around the jojo or berserk thread and have some discussion there. I'm pretty sure we agree with you that snk is not like game of thrones, but no... You can't have that you wont to annoy the fans.

FrancWyvern said:

I like AoT and think this specific topic is interesting, if you're annoyed that's your problem because that's not what I'm trying to do.

keragamming said:


So what's your point in all of this then?

Do you want us to agree with your opinion?

Do you want us to agree that snk overrated?

What's the purpose of making this topic then?

I think Jo Jo is mediocre at best, but do you see me going around the discussion area talking about what I don't like about it and why I think it's overrated? No because people are different we all have different taste. Snk so happens to have all the formula in attracting a lot of viewers that's it.

Not everyone will like the series as much as me.

To make you feel better. There are plenty of people that think SNK is garbage, so don't worry about it. Not everyone is a snk fan. :)

FrancWyvern said:


I was having a health discussion with Estherella until you guys interfered. So I think there's a point, discussion are what turn us into better people.

keragamming said:


But we agree with you on your point that snk is not game of thrones.

FrancWyvern said:


Ok, no need for the hate then. Can I continue discussing with Estherella?

keragamming said:


No, go message Estherella and talk in private. If you discuss here, I and many other people will reply if we don't agree with your point. You can always ignore us though.

FrancWyvern said:


I know the mysteries are probably the most common reason for this manga being called unpredictable(Which are really interesting, besides some problems) but the argument that you should avoid getting attached to the characters because anyone can die at any moment has been brought up too many times, which kind of started to annoy me.

FrancWyvern said:

I know that the random deaths are necessary for the genre but I think it starts becoming a cheap writing trick when the author tries to make it look like the characters will be important just so we will be surprised when they die, it's like it's using the Sacrificial Lion trope every chapter, which soon gets tiresome an lost it's effect. Terra Formars is another manga who tries doing this but the way it overuse it made me drop it after only 4 chapters, the pattern of: New character is introduced, character design stands out, sounds cool for the few pages they are alive, there's a description specifying how awesome he is, "surprisingly" get cut in half. Was just annoying, not shocking, or deep or whatever.
But the Terra Formars case is way more extreme than AoT.

FrancWyvern said:

I also don't think a shounen would be the best way to tackle those themes. It's shounen status limits the way it can deal with this kind of themes because some tropes of the "genre" breaks the mood that they are trying to create.
I think AoT would be better as an serious War Drama.

But I do think it's a good show for starters, but there are others I would recommend that completely brakes the image people have of anime and manga.

FrancWyvern said:

My definition of mature is about how the series treats it's themes, no theme is mature per se, you can make a show about pólitics and do it in the stupidest way possible, but you could make a show about the importance of friendship and be really mature. I think AoT could've done a better job in it's themes but I think it's alright. "All Quiet on the Western Front" looks interesting, I plan on reading it. I would recommend to you Devilman and The Music of Marie, two great mangas with similar themes.

FrozenRemains said:
And what we expect from snk is the epic battle of humas vs titans/humans,and thats what we get.

You make it sound like you're reading snk for the death of the characters.
You're not getting that so youre disappointed.
Are you sad the mains havent died yet?
Having like 90% of earths population turned into titans is not dark at all.
And that is justified because you feel like the mains wont die for a while.
Great.

The only person powered up throughout the series is Eren.
Basically the ability for Eren to transform gets in the way of your enjoyment,even though its directly connected to the plot.
You however cant stand it.

You know what,im gonna do you a favor and leave this thread.
Mains dont die here boys,i cant enjoy this.

FrancWyvern said:
With the anime's success I've seen a lot of people saying that the show is unpredictable because "it has no plot armor" and "you never know who will die next", even comparing it to Game of Thrones but I just can't see it that way, so far in the manga no main character has died and the only character who meet such faith are created by the author only for shock factor. The closest to a main character death was when Erwin lost his arms, or when the random guy who saved Eren and Mikasa in the beginning died. And to be honest, every time someone important is about to die the author pulls a lame excuse to avoid it (For example, every time Eren gets a power up).
I really think this is a fun manga but I just don't see how anyone cares about the dead character in it.

I'm only talking about Eren because it's one example of plot armor, I don't question the fact that it's important to the plot but at some points, like when he discovered he could control other Titans, it's just an asspull.

Estherella said:
I don't think you should mind that much mainly because opinions differ from one to another and it's not something that is debatable about. That comment is generally made by viewers who are new to the genre (dark fantasy, horror, etc). In fact, i found that lot of anime viewers these days don't watch any anime over 6 years old (aside from the big 3) and my brother is one of those people. Many people aren't exposed to old classic and avoid them mainly due to lower animation quality and unsuitable OST and train-wreck ending to story with great concept or incomplete ending. I think part of it is mainly due to how people tends to think new things are always better than old things which is a shame because there are many good shows back in the early 2000s.

Estherella said:
I dunno about you but like i said before in one of my posts, Snk is largely popular due to the male and female fanbase, in which case, this is something that is very hard to achieve for any shounen anime to date. In the case of the male fanbase, there's generally people like you who like dark fantasy or shounen in general while the female fanbase are mostly consist of anime fans that generally like light hearted series (by that i meant they don't really watch anything that is gorey [Berserk/Claymore/Hellsing/Higurashi]). I've met lot of anime fans that don't appreciate the idea of gore and horror and only tamed horror shows like "Ghost Hunt" and "Another" but anything beside that, they don't generally like them. It's actually the main reason why series like Berserk and Claymore wouldn't work as a mainstream material because: 1) The gore turn mainstream viewers away 2) In berserk, there's too much unnecessary raping involved and it's just simply disturbing [Female in General absolutely loathe the idea of using rape as a plot device, it's just degrading but inevitable since it's set in the middle ages. 3) In berserk, heavily give off the sense that the guy > female all the time. Lot of seinen and shounen series is guilty of having female characters that can not fend for themselves and requires protection (whether it'd be mentally or physically but it's more to do with the fact that too series repeatedly does that)

Estherella said:
I can understand what you are coming from but i wouldn't go a far as calling it a cheap trick since most of them who died were never important (at least not important to continue the plot anyway) after fulfilling some sort of purposes (whether it'd be to consolidate further characterizations or plot devices). It's no longer a titan vs human and it's becoming of a human vs human vs titan and death is hard to avoid considering the given circumstances. I think this point is very difficult to discuss anything further because apocalypse series in general are like that, it's like a part of their convention that makes them what they are (I'm a big fan of apocalypse series and dark fantasy). From the sound of it, i think you are definitely the kind of person who favour characterization a lot so in the case of snk who lacks in that department, i can see why you would find that an issue. Truth to be told, i started the snk series without liking any of its character at all, there was just something about the series that really charms me. I didn't actually really care for them until the anime came out because the anime does a better job at developing them. I'm more of a "story" >"character" person so that's probably why it didn't bothered me as much. Whereas Gantz is the polar opposite of snk and have better characterizations but the plot itself is a clusterfuck. I also do strongly agree with you about Terra Formars and it is extremely guilty of using cannon folder and kill them off within the same chapter (i treated it as a mindless entertainment since that's what it is).

Estherella said:
I strongly agree that SNK would be probably even better as a seinen type story. But at the same time, I think the author probably was fully aware of what's he doing so when he wrote Snk, he probably knew it's more of a shounen material (Especially if you consider the titan shifter thing) because the series in overall does use shounen troupe but he does them in a different way that most people would which leads people into thinking that it's a seinen series along with the gritty art style that's very reminiscent of Kentaro Miura (which isayama notes as one of his influence). It also didn't help that while Snk is a commercial success throughout the world, Isayama is only an amateur in his field so his art and writing is definitely lacking because it's his first series. For Isayama to write a seinen series would probably too much because i don't think up to that level yet and in fact, it would probably misleading to some people (just like how many people though SNK is a seinen). In essence, I think isayama also wanted to create a shounen story that can be dark (i find that he have a lot of liking for series with depth) and not just simply stick with the basic shounen conventions.

Estherella said:
Indeed, that's exactly right. It's about how the story utilize these themes and at the moment, Snk hasn't done anything that contradict its themes so that's why i pointed these things out. Particularly in regard to politics, i realized ever since the beginning of the story, the author has subtlely incorporated hints of the government playing a huge role in the appearance of titans throughout the series. I think we will have to see how the author decides to progress the story and only then we can properly discuss about how true the series actually sticks with its themes.

P.S - I think you should read The flower of evil :) it's a very interesting tale that tells the story in a very unique perspective especially for people who are a sucker for classic french poems. At first, i thought it was some just weird manga that tells a story about a pervert but got caught by a manipulative girl but it turns out the series was very different from what i thought it was. I strongly recommend you to read it because i haven't seen any artist done it this way before ~ ^-^ I haven't read Oyasumi Punpun but i hear great things about it so it's my plan to read list ><


There's no need for all these flaming and insults. Opinions are opinions. I've seen tons of hate on lot on SNK and some even went as far as calling it "the worst series ever made" but i still kept my mouth shut and said nothing simply because opinions are opinions. Like i said, it's not like he said the series was bad, just that he didn't find it as good but even then i don't even think there should be a problem. It's only a problem when trolls decided to come in for the sake of trolling [cough cough, like one person that just appears just then]. The reason why i decided to discuss in here for very simple reasons: 1) to get people to understand people did not like snk because of its gore and violence [I can't express how much this comment irritates me because these people are acting as though he was speaking for the whole population that likes the series. 2) Have a real constructive criticism that is not bias or just for the sake of disliking it 3) Enlighten viewers who did not like snk as much about why I am such a big fan of it for good reasons. Basically, i don't want this to be just a personal message, i want it to get these messages out as much as possible. I believe people who have legit reasons for disliking a certain series should have no problem countering my argument, which unfortunately didn't happen in most of the cases.

pwnagekitten said:
People will whine if nobody important gets killed. (you sadistic bastards)

People will cry if somebody important gets killed.

Either ways, you can't win. This fandom is weird as f*ck.

(To clarify this isn't pointed towards any1 here, it's just a careful observation from my many voyages from various fansites)

How impacting or important a death is depends how it's handled.

If Levi dies before we get something more out of him it will be just for the shocks and lulz. Ok maybe not lulz but you get my point. My money is on Erwin.

Jeez, I'm almost frightened to read the next chapter when it comes out .

jreginald said:
To OP: If you're referring to HxH as "dark and gritty", I hope you're referring to the 1999 version. The 2011 version isn't meant for kids either but the atmosphere has "brightened" up. Not that that's a bad thing, there is still definitely a dark vibe to the show and it carries it rather well. FMA (2003) flopped hard for me, though. I thought they were just trying way too hard.

jreginald said:
I cared about Eren's mom dying not only because she's a mother but because of the atmosphere. The way they zoomed in on the smiling Titan as it pierced Hannes with fear. The words, "don't go" slipping out of her tongue as she tried to be brave. That was a display of what it meant for a human to fear death, that no one ever wants to die. The helpless look in Eren's face as he watched the Titan pick up his mother. That's why I cared.

Same thing for Levi's squad -- I found them to be likable characters, mainly Oluo & Petra. They had enough lines that you start caring for them, they spent episodes telling Eren not to worry, that they've got this, that Eren has to learn to trust in his comrades. And then we see them kicking the Female Titan's ass. And then right after that we see them getting their shit pushed in. The way it was carried was so heavy, the way Levi held a blank and empty stare as he looked at his dead comrades. You could see what he was feeling. And that filler episode of them throwing away the bodies didn't help, either. The part where it shows each member's family was just sad.

There's also Mike (the dude that always sniffed people). They established him to be a very strong soldier (second to Levi in skill) and you see him in a tough situation with a bunch of titans. You get the idea that he was about to live and then the damn Ape Titan comes in. The guy starts crying and gets eaten by a bunch of titans. Despair.

jreginald said:
I do agree that there is some sort of plot armor in the show but I don't like how you keep saying that SnK "tries to be a seinen". If darkness and despair was the show's objective, I think they did a very good job at delivering that. I never minded the other random deaths either, it just added to the concept that humans are helpless against titans. I think what really engraved that in my head was Episode 5 where Eren was eaten. I was honestly confused about how I felt towards the main character dying. And I kept thinking, how the hell are these guys going to beat these gigantic things? Eren turning into a Titan was one of the coolest shit I've ever seen. Granted, AoT was my first anime in a long time. But boy am I glad that it was AoT.

jreginald said:
Okay, if you're gonna call Eren's being "The Coordinate" an asspull then we might as well call every twist in this show an asspull. Eren turning into a Titan? Asspull! Besides, the ability to manipulate the Titans was shown before, by Annie & Reiner. Can't call asspull when something similar had been shown beforehand. It's also to be expected since the guy is so wanted by Reiner & Bertholdt.

FrancWyvern said:
I never noticed a problem with this gender thing, maybe that's because it never affected me personally, I never had any problem with reading a Shoujo/Josei or some manga that was considered girly.
I alway though that violent and disturbing material couldn't get mainstream but the success of Game of Thrones makes me reconsider that just a bit.

FrancWyvern said:

I agree with what you're saying here, but I'm not sure I would say that "writing a seinen is beyond his capabilities".
I like his art, with was weird at first but now I think I like it more than the anime.

FrancWyvern said:
With the anime's success I've seen a lot of people saying that the show is unpredictable because "it has no plot armor" and "you never know who will die next", even comparing it to Game of Thrones but I just can't see it that way, so far in the manga no main character has died and the only character who meet such faith are created by the author only for shock factor. The closest to a main character death was when Erwin lost his arms, or when the random guy who saved Eren and Mikasa in the beginning died. And to be honest, every time someone important is about to die the author pulls a lame excuse to avoid it (For example, every time Eren gets a power up).
I really think this is a fun manga but I just don't see how anyone cares about the dead character in it.


Mod Edit: Edited thread title, do not post spoilers without spoiler tags. You should warn users that there will be spoilers in a thread if you're not posting with spoiler tags.

Estherella said:
As far i am concern, things doesn't always work that way unfortunately. Though there are exceptions with some people who never cared much about these things (haha like me :P). It's less to do with violent and disturbing things and more to do with how people's views and attitudes change over time. Take a look for example, if you compare people of the older generation to the new generation, you'd realized that they react differently about gore and violent things. The newer generation are much more adapted to this type of exposure and much open minded about it so many people don't actually have problems with watching series like those anymore. But it depends a lot on how the series takes itself and to what extent. For instance, Gore and violence things in a black comedy/satirical series will not have any issues with the general public because the main point of it is comedy whereas a series that takes it too seriously or the focus tends to shift towards glorification of violence/gore might do less favourably.

There's also fine line between the type of stuff that boys/girls can read-watch/can't read-watch. Most josei and shoujo genre is more real life based (just look at the amount of romance comedy series omg e.e ) because that's the only kind of thing that actually sells from the shoujo demographics since anyone of any gender can actually relates to the settings without any problems (romance is pretty much part of everyone's life at some point/somehow so it's relatable). It's sort of similar to the reason why romance movies are always more popular than horror movies in general. It's not as though people hates it or anything but it's simply not their cup of tea for majority of the populations. Not to mention, horror and violence is a whole different issue and it's something that a lot of people aren't generally comfortable with especially if the series takes itself very seriously. Particular in asian countries, female demographics generally prefer romcom/slice-of-life series anytime of the days. I know a lot of my female friends doesn't really like to read/watch them unless the premise of the series interest them.

Estherella said:
I can't really speak for much for Game of Throne's success since i haven't seen much of the series myself but from as far as i know, game of throne focus isn't really about glorification of violence and gore but more towards the plot and characters so that's probably why many female viewers doesn't mind it as much. Not to mention, a lot of them seem to love it so much because it evoke some form of emotional response from them (like how some people dreaded over the fact their favourite characters get kill all the time). Berserk on the hand, well, there's sort of like gores and gores everywhere and i don't think it's a stretch that gore makes up part of berserk's appeal with its dark fantasy settings since there's a lot of killing monsters more than anything :S Not to mention, berserk isn't the kind of series that can get people emotional in the sense that they would cry, it's more like it makes people feel mentally disturbed instead (i like being mentally disturbed too :3 ). This is just purely based on my observations, but series that tends to succeed in evoking emotional response from the female demographics tend to do more favourably and i can't see berserk being those kind since the shock/gore overwhelm the emotional state (like the last episode of berserk). There's just lot of mentally disturbing imagery in berserk that actually left a deep impression on me and i can't say that's actually a good thing for many people XD

Estherella said:
The reason why i said "writing a seinen is beyond is abilities" is because Hajime Isayama is still an amateur in his field despite having such a huge success with SNK. It's not that i think he can't do it but i just think he isn't up to there just yet and needs more experience and training. Part of the reason why i stated that was because unlike many other manga artists and author who receive professional training, Hajime Isayama didn't attend any art school or receive any proper training or lectures because all he wants is simply to becoming a manga artist (which he decided on a whim) and write his own story in his own way. In fact, lot of manga author actually start out as a manga author assistant (Eiichiro Oda for example, etc). So, it was actually very impressive for Isayama Hajime whom despite having no experience still managed to have a big success like this because not a lot of people have such luck or even talent.

In addition, I read many of his interviews where he have expressed his huge concerns with other manga author about his own work sometime since he wasn't exactly sure how to write a cohesive story that is provocative and challenging for the reader. He actually seek advice from more professional and experienced authors quite often :) since he's actually quite overwhelmed with the rising success. x.X He's sort of have a problem similar to how "most people have a great idea for the story but they are not exactly sure how to "do/execute" it properly. Like in film and movies, great story and great music =/= good execution which is why the reason why you'd need lot of people to do the storyboard, write the script, editor to check spelling/grammar, director make sure everything flows nicely, cinematographer to make sure the lighting and camera shots are in place, etc. People who don't study these things in depth doesn't do quite well because all these elements works together to effectively to create the mood :X In the case of manga series, it's the art style, storyboard, writing, characters, panel (how each scene transition into the next), etc. I'v actually seen cases where the manga series have a great art, great story, great character but for some reason it turned out to be very bland and boring (it wasn't just my opinion and it seems like lot of people found it the same as well and you know there's a lot of problem if many people think this way) because the author didn't execute the mood of the scenes well or done it in the most effective way so it failed to capture the audience. It's much easier to judge a manga/novel based on its story and character because there's no music or animation to build up the mood (to evoke an emotional response through a book is harder to do it in visual mediums particularly horror) or show you how it's done so it is entirely up to the artist/author's job to establish the scenes properly through their writing/art to guide the audience/reader to the right way.

sullynathan said:
I understand what you are saying and I agree that Eren is the biggest offender for plot armor in the series, but I have to agree and disagree on certain things.
The only time that I think eren could have died was when he was first eaten, but they made him a titan shifter and since there are theories that eren could have been a shifter since the beginning I don't have a problem with it.

I haven't watched game of thrones yet so I can't comment on it.

Personally I didn't care much for every character that died. Sure I was surprised when all those characters died in Episode 5 and when Levi's squad died but for me if a character isn't going to be important and they end up dieing then I don't care as much.

I think SNK is good as a shonen right now because both Black Bullet and Terra Formars are like SNK and they're both Seinen and aren't as good as SNK.

Esthrella said:
Lol, then you did get a lot of things wrong because much of what you said are based on your perception not facts. The demographic with the most mass appeal isn't seinen but shounen series in the manga/anime industry. This is particularly noticeable especially if you check out what types of manga and anime that actually sells and you would realised huge majority of them are aimed towards the shounen demographic (I track anime and manga sales all the time because I wanted to know my fav series is doing). Even EVA is shounen as well. In fact, all the best selling manga of all time are shounen - one piece, dragon ball, hunter x hunter, rurouni kenshin, etc. See what I meant? The ones I mentioned are only portion of it too. Seinen/Josei series usually never sell as much as the shoujo/shounen partly because most people enjoy light hearted series as their source of entertainment. If you actually interact with other anime fans regularly particularly the female fans in general, then you'd realised many of them don't really watch much horror genre to the likes of berserk type but ghost hunt and another was fine.

Estherella said:
And yeah that's what I meant for berserk, the series is not so much about making you getting attach to the characters since it's main gripping point is its dark fantasy universe coupled with many interesting casts. Interesting, great cast of characters =/= making you emotionally invested in them. Big difference. I think there was only a couple of moments here and there but that's about it. The series doesn't really focus on its emotional element hence not many people actually felt sympathetic towards the character since all the tragedy that ever happens only works to create that sense of fear, terror and shock. It's exactly like the one you just mentioned. It's just disturbing, it doesn't make you feel depress and go "omg......I feel so bad for the wife, why did it have to happen to her?". I was left with shock when Griffith did THAT to Casca, there was no time for sympathy, just left me with excitement and questions like "omg what's going to happen now and what in the world is happening, how are they going to get out of this alive". Also about the 6 month for a new berserk chapter isn't a typical thing, it just that the author didn't wanted to work/have issues with working and stress that he ended up focusing on his personal life to get out of that. I kept hearing rumours about him being obsess with idolmaster and gaming. That's very understandable but professionally that's just poor work ethic and inexcusable especially when you have someone like Eiichiro Oda who's working so hard to release a new chapter every week until his health deteriorate ;(.

FrancWyvern said:


I know that Shounens are the highest seller, I just thought that Seinens would have more appeal(Especially between people who are not used to the medium) because it have no "rules". But in practice I can't get any example except "I showed my mom Monster and she loved it".

FrancWyvern said:

I don't think I can agree with "not being invested in the characters", I don't really think that the Eclipse would have such an affect on me if I wasn't invested in the characters who suffered it.

FrancWyvern said:

Miura actually wrote a complete manga in those 6 months, lol, but I haven't read it yet (It's really short, 6/7 chapters I think).I used to think that the whole Miura playing idolmaster was a joke before I found out that he designed an Vocaloid, maybe he really have a place for moe in his heart :) I don't think he takes so much time to make a new chapter because he's lazy, I just can't call someone who draw like that a lazy person.

Estherella said:
Not really. I can see what you meant but like I have stated before, seinen and shounen means nothing at all, it's just merely demographics. There's no less or more broader appeal, seinen is aimed towards the mature audience thus the reason why adults can take a liking to it but even then that alone doesn't mean much. As much as there are lot of seinen series that are very mature and in depth, there are also as much shit ones as well and one that does not even fit the definition of "mature". Many of those series whether it'd be anime/manga still utilize some troupes and conventions that throw ordinary people off so unless they can get passed that, there's nothing that could change their mindset. For example, there's the thing about characters's monologue all the time, characters reiterating their goals / ambition /decisions, talking during action scenes, characters with usual/whacky personality, naive protagonist, etc. It's not a bad thing to use troupe and convention but it all depends on they're going to use it but in some cases people can't get pass that because of cultural differences (particularly comedy series, what people in japan find as humorous may not translate the same for the western demographic). It's actually one of the very few reasons that anime fans in their late 30s and 40s are dropping out of anime and find them not as appealing anymore (outside of japan). Some people are experiencing that phase of "falling out of anime" rather than the problems with the show itself and that's not really surprising, it just happens.

In addition, there is always that mindset of "if I am going to watch something intelligent and serious, I would watch live actions series instead, why bother with anime?" Let's face it, as much as we would like to admit that anime can be intelligent and mature, it's not really like that because all these shows uses typical anime conventions and troupes that's holding them back from reaching that state of what people can terminally refer to "deep, mature and intelligent." At the same time, it is exactly because of those troupes and conventions that anime fans love about anime. That's also the same reason why i begin loving anime anyway, i didn't go for anime because it is mature, it was just the aesthetics and the conventions that really intrigues me. But otherwise can you honestly say that there are anime shows that are on the same equivalent level as shows like the breaking bad, boardwalk empire and the game of thrones? I personally can't...and my parents cant get into anime for the very same reason. ;/ I think non-anime viewers who came into the show expecting entertainment can easily get into the medium as opposed to the non-anime viewers who came into the show expecting maturity, intelligence and depth then they might end up finding disappointment.

Also that example of "Monster" that you gave me isn't really a good one mainly because the series itself have a westernised settings and realistic conventions that really give off that feel of it being an American series/HBO series. Not many seinen series are like that at all unfortunately and it's one of the very rare one that actually mobilise western settings (names,place,culture,etc) very effectively (Wonder if Naoki Urasawa watches lot of american shows? :3). I think Monster is a great anime series in its genre but i have my fair share of problems due to the fact that the series potential is being held back because of what it is (anime) and I could see it being much better. I've even heard Monster is going to get a live action adaption in America and the fact that they are doing that means they are recognizing the potential of the series. Though whether they could explore the full potential of the story is a whole issue together. Also, did you ever notice that most anime series that do very well in the west in general (reception, popularity) tends to be very westernised? Example, Cowboy Bebop, Fullmetal Alchemist, Gundam Wing, Robotech (It was a pretty big thing back in the late 80s to early 90s), Pokemon (as funny as it sounds but yeah everyone knows them) and recently Shingeki no Kyojin. Whereas Japanese settings tend to never do as well as those kind and it's quite a massive feat for them to accomplish that. The closest I could think of is Evangelion and Rurouni Kenshin but even then i don't even know if it's as highly acclaimed with the general public as Cowboy Bebop.

Estherella said:
I think we can leave it here at this point mainly because of subjective opinions, I personally believe the nature of the series's universe is dark, cruel, savage, and gritty thus the focus on gore, violence and horror more than anything which is why i think I found it to be such a difficult task to be invested in the characters aside from the main cast. I found the supporting cast's development to be 'fine', but nothing too glaring in that respect. The same thing could be said for the romance development, it's quite icky but acceptable. IT's very understandable given the fact that if the series attempts to focus too much on the emotional aspects then the series will run the risk of losing its dark and gritty effects along the way. There's no author/artist in this world that could just throw in anything he wants without considering how it'll affect the series thus the reason why it is so important to develop the plot elements, plot devices and character's personality properly to ensure that it can effectively convey that mood. Imagine what happens if Miura add comedic elements into the series? It'll take away all the serious moments wouldn't it? At this point isn't too much of a big issue since we can all agree that Berserk is a great series. :) ><;

Estherella said:
Lol, i think you are misunderstanding what i said. I said he have bad work ethics but that does not meant he is lazy. There's a fine line between them. By bad ethics, I am referring to how after 20+ years of berserk serialisation, the series just keep on going on hiatus and the author doesn't seem to be ending it anytime soon. That's my main issue with it. It's like what happened to D.N angel, the series went on infinite hiatus because the author wants to start a new project and she is infamous for dropping her project all the time midway through and never got around finishing them. Kentaro Miura isn't as bad as her and there's no doubt that he is a fine artist and great author himself but in terms of work ethic, that's pretty piss poor. But it's his work, so he can do whatever he wants but keeping fans hanging like that for so long I don't think that's a good thing. I also know that he did a six-chapter series last year and it's definitely a sign that he feels like working again but I hope this time there ain't going to be anymore hiatus. I think it's about time for the author to wrap things up for Berserk, as good as the series is, everything has to end and nothing good will come out of it if the author doesn't know what he's going to do with it the longer he tries to prolong it. I'm also getting the feeling that he's itching to start a new series. For any creative person whether it'd be an artist/creator/inventor, it really sucks when you have to stick with an idea/project for so damn long and it's not even close to completion, you'll eventually lead to that stage where any sense of motivation and dedications to the work gets throw out of the window along the way and what normally happens is you ended up wasting lot of your time and not accomplishing much and that really SUCKS A LOT.

FrancWyvern said:

Ok, I really have to disagree with you here. Legend of the Galactic Heroes makes GoT looks like Twilight, The Tatami Galaxy and NHK are also great but there are troops that can make it look a bit "weird" to some people, but I don't really think they are holding them back. I don't watch that many anime but I can easily make an extensive list of mangas that are serious and deeps and can really beat a lot of western shows and movies, here are some examples: Berserk, Sanctuary, Homunculus, Vagabond, Vinland Saga, anything Urasawa does, etc...
All with an serious mood, deep characters and story lines and little to none of the "annoying troops".

Estherella said:


Thanks for the recommendations, I'll be sure to check them out. I'm not going to comment on those series that you've just listed because i haven't seen them even though I've heard great things about them. :) I should probably apologize for saying that anime/manga can't be mature because they can actually be very good and mature IF THEY TRIED TO BE. It's just that whenever i think of anime as a whole and in general; 'mature' and 'intelligent' was probably the furthest thing i could use to describe anime. Not that anime have to be intelligent and mature all the time to be good, but i would assume that if there were more series like those, maybe the general public can change their perceptions about the whole medium. Especially in the case of anime, because many and MANY of them never ever get a conclusive ending (berserk); either that or they completely deviate from the main story and fucked up the ending (claymore). To have a good story, no ending and bad ending is a big no no. From what I've seen, roughly 80% of anime series that i've seen are like that :C....Needless to say that there are abundant of non-mature ones which sometimes can be very misleading to non-anime people. (P.S manga>anime :D )

Unfortunately, not much studios nowadays are willing to experiment with original story and thus the reason why there's a lack of originality while huge amount of light novel and manga series made into anime adaption because it's less risky. :( :( :( Also.......I think we are deviating from the topic too much....XD)