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Phantom ~Requiem for the Phantom~ Episode 25 Discussion
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View Poll Results: Phantom ~Requiem for the Phantom~ Episode 25 Discussion
5 out of 5: Loved it!
 
105 61.40%
4 out of 5: Liked it
 
32 18.71%
3 out of 5: It was OK
 
10 5.85%
2 out of 5: Disliked it
 
8 4.68%
1 out of 5: Hated it
 
16 9.36%
Voters: 171

09-20-09, 1:21 PM

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Jacut said:
Oh and I didn't understand the need for the five-minutes introduction at the beginning of the ep, it was a simple waste of screentime since we don't really care what two side characters like Mio and her mother (that we see for the second time only I believe) have to say one episode until the end when the conclusion is not even started. Stick to the important points, not the useless side stories.


One more of the oblivious "this show is too difficult for me" viewers.

Did you even try to understand what the point of the Mio closure was? Or are you only in for the guns and girls?

Yes, Phantom does work with nuances, but it amazes me how some people consistently fail to understand the story, as if they were watching raws.
 
09-20-09, 1:44 PM

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Mentar said:


You're missing the point. This quote refers to the special situation that _civilians_ like Mio and her mother cannot be with underworld criminals without exposing them to the dangers that Reiji/Godoh want to protect them from. Therefore, for them it's a bigger sign of love NOT to be with them and so allow them to give their loved ones the life they themselves want but cannot get. Cal, on the other hand is already fully integrated in the underworld. The point of the statement simply doesn't apply to her.


I'd say that for the vast majority of viewers, it was poignant enough, reading through the reactions. But you never understood her character anyway, so why would you suddenly develop empathy now? :)



If you weren't a generally oblivious viewer I'd suggest that you rewatch the scene for clues, since it works out very well the main reason which broke Cal. Hint: Check the last two sentences she said in the shot-up bar. I'm not holding my breath though.



That was also explained in the "crazy" part, no wonder that you missed it too. She already said that she'd only kill Ein and then "burn out". In other words, she's burning bridges. She was planning to die this night.


See above.


It wasn't really incoherent. It takes about 5 brain cells to figure out what she's saying, and why she's saying it. She loved him - all the time till the end - and she (and Reiji) regretted that they "messed up on the way". What hurt her particularly was the misunderstanding that Reiji didn't care for her anymore and simply replaced her for Ein (which is why she wanted to kill her as revenge). She never _really_ wanted to kill Reiji. She wanted to hear that he cared for her after all. And this is what she got in the end.


No. I'm not missing the point. The point is that Reiji was specifically trying to keep Cal away from the the underworld, and wanted her to have a normal life. Cal didn't want that. Instead she wanted to live in some idealized world where she and Reiji would kill "uninnocent" people for Inferno and be together forever. That is the naivety that I am pointing out. Not only was she that ignorant, she willingly stayed that ignorant despite learning the facts of what happened that night, and Lizzie's attempts to help her understand. She was a stupid child, plain and simple.

The burning out that she speaks of doing is yet another example of her selfish refusal to see the facts of the situation around her. Cal wanted to be hurt/play the victim, so she created this scenario in her head to justify all of her actions. That's why the few times that a third party has something to say, she get's irritated--they're calling her out on her foolishness and she just doesn't want to hear it. Again, this speaks to her insanely inflated ego, she thought that she would get the death she wanted, and actually kill a former Phantom after downing bottles of alcohol? Give me a break.

Look, Mentar, you've spent the beginning of this arc talking about how her motivations were special and her out of character transformation would be explained. They weren't. Cal is as simple as she has been the entire show, and it all came down to immature abandonment issues, general insanity, and bad plot development. She knew Reiji didn't abandon her because he hated her, but instead of acting honestly and confronting him in any type of way not conducive to a two year old throwing a tantrum, she rejects reality and logic to wallow in self-pity. She didn't love him. She loved the idea of someone protecting/saving her, and when she lost it, she couldn't handle reality. It was a misunderstanding because she refused to see his side. She was happy to be ignorant of his feelings. As Mio's mother said, that isn't love.
 
09-20-09, 2:25 PM

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Posts: 387
Didn't she get messed up by Scythe though, i.e. he gave her the supplies and jobs to "fuel" her rage for his research i.e. his number sisters who are attractive and got the energy of Cal but the cold killing determination of Elen and Reji.

Also I think Cal's dream sequence (which I assume is the game's Cal ending sequence) and Reji's line on we messed up somewhere, was bit tongue in cheek on the game mechanics but was actually quite a powerful piece of animation overall by posing the classic what if scenario. (regardless if its overused, which quite frankly it isn't too much in animation and overused being well overused)

Cal motivation was down to abandonment issues for another woman, which she wouldn't have known unless Scythe had told her.

Scythe is basically watching from afar, waiting to show off his play which was shown in a few episodes before, when his sisters are doing recon.
Modified by AlliedG, 09-20-09, 2:29 PM
 
09-20-09, 2:58 PM

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noteDhero said:
Mentar said:


You're missing the point. This quote refers to the special situation that _civilians_ like Mio and her mother cannot be with underworld criminals without exposing them to the dangers that Reiji/Godoh want to protect them from. Therefore, for them it's a bigger sign of love NOT to be with them and so allow them to give their loved ones the life they themselves want but cannot get. Cal, on the other hand is already fully integrated in the underworld. The point of the statement simply doesn't apply to her.


I'd say that for the vast majority of viewers, it was poignant enough, reading through the reactions. But you never understood her character anyway, so why would you suddenly develop empathy now? :)



If you weren't a generally oblivious viewer I'd suggest that you rewatch the scene for clues, since it works out very well the main reason which broke Cal. Hint: Check the last two sentences she said in the shot-up bar. I'm not holding my breath though.



That was also explained in the "crazy" part, no wonder that you missed it too. She already said that she'd only kill Ein and then "burn out". In other words, she's burning bridges. She was planning to die this night.


See above.


It wasn't really incoherent. It takes about 5 brain cells to figure out what she's saying, and why she's saying it. She loved him - all the time till the end - and she (and Reiji) regretted that they "messed up on the way". What hurt her particularly was the misunderstanding that Reiji didn't care for her anymore and simply replaced her for Ein (which is why she wanted to kill her as revenge). She never _really_ wanted to kill Reiji. She wanted to hear that he cared for her after all. And this is what she got in the end.


No. I'm not missing the point. The point is that Reiji was specifically trying to keep Cal away from the the underworld, and wanted her to have a normal life. Cal didn't want that. Instead she wanted to live in some idealized world where she and Reiji would kill "uninnocent" people for Inferno and be together forever. That is the naivety that I am pointing out. Not only was she that ignorant, she willingly stayed that ignorant despite learning the facts of what happened that night, and Lizzie's attempts to help her understand. She was a stupid child, plain and simple.

The burning out that she speaks of doing is yet another example of her selfish refusal to see the facts of the situation around her. Cal wanted to be hurt/play the victim, so she created this scenario in her head to justify all of her actions. That's why the few times that a third party has something to say, she get's irritated--they're calling her out on her foolishness and she just doesn't want to hear it. Again, this speaks to her insanely inflated ego, she thought that she would get the death she wanted, and actually kill a former Phantom after downing bottles of alcohol? Give me a break.

Look, Mentar, you've spent the beginning of this arc talking about how her motivations were special and her out of character transformation would be explained. They weren't. Cal is as simple as she has been the entire show, and it all came down to immature abandonment issues, general insanity, and bad plot development. She knew Reiji didn't abandon her because he hated her, but instead of acting honestly and confronting him in any type of way not conducive to a two year old throwing a tantrum, she rejects reality and logic to wallow in self-pity. She didn't love him. She loved the idea of someone protecting/saving her, and when she lost it, she couldn't handle reality. It was a misunderstanding because she refused to see his side. She was happy to be ignorant of his feelings. As Mio's mother said, that isn't love.


Thanks for summarizing what I posted when they first introduced grown up Cal lol.

@AlliedG - Scythe just told her what she wanted to hear over and over again to fuel her "anger". "Reiji left you for another women", "Reiji abandoned you", "Reiji doesn't care about you anymore"...etc. She was already aware of the real reason Reiji left her after a year but her Naivety and stubbornness got the better of her.
 
09-20-09, 5:12 PM

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noteDhero said:


No. I'm not missing the point. The point is that Reiji was specifically trying to keep Cal away from the the underworld, and wanted her to have a normal life. Cal didn't want that. Instead she wanted to live in some idealized world where she and Reiji would kill "uninnocent" people for Inferno and be together forever. That is the naivety that I am pointing out. Not only was she that ignorant, she willingly stayed that ignorant despite learning the facts of what happened that night, and Lizzie's attempts to help her understand. She was a stupid child, plain and simple.

The burning out that she speaks of doing is yet another example of her selfish refusal to see the facts of the situation around her. Cal wanted to be hurt/play the victim, so she created this scenario in her head to justify all of her actions. That's why the few times that a third party has something to say, she get's irritated--they're calling her out on her foolishness and she just doesn't want to hear it. Again, this speaks to her insanely inflated ego, she thought that she would get the death she wanted, and actually kill a former Phantom after downing bottles of alcohol? Give me a break.

Look, Mentar, you've spent the beginning of this arc talking about how her motivations were special and her out of character transformation would be explained. They weren't. Cal is as simple as she has been the entire show, and it all came down to immature abandonment issues, general insanity, and bad plot development. She knew Reiji didn't abandon her because he hated her, but instead of acting honestly and confronting him in any type of way not conducive to a two year old throwing a tantrum, she rejects reality and logic to wallow in self-pity. She didn't love him. She loved the idea of someone protecting/saving her, and when she lost it, she couldn't handle reality. It was a misunderstanding because she refused to see his side. She was happy to be ignorant of his feelings. As Mio's mother said, that isn't love.


THANK-YOU noteDhero! You summed up what I've been wanting to post, but couldn't word it as well as you did, regarding Reiji and Lizzie not wanting Cal to become an assasin.

 
09-20-09, 5:44 PM

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noteDhero said:


No. I'm not missing the point. The point is that Reiji was specifically trying to keep Cal away from the the underworld, and wanted her to have a normal life. Cal didn't want that. Instead she wanted to live in some idealized world where she and Reiji would kill "uninnocent" people for Inferno and be together forever. That is the naivety that I am pointing out. Not only was she that ignorant, she willingly stayed that ignorant despite learning the facts of what happened that night, and Lizzie's attempts to help her understand. She was a stupid child, plain and simple.

The burning out that she speaks of doing is yet another example of her selfish refusal to see the facts of the situation around her. Cal wanted to be hurt/play the victim, so she created this scenario in her head to justify all of her actions. That's why the few times that a third party has something to say, she get's irritated--they're calling her out on her foolishness and she just doesn't want to hear it. Again, this speaks to her insanely inflated ego, she thought that she would get the death she wanted, and actually kill a former Phantom after downing bottles of alcohol? Give me a break.

Look, Mentar, you've spent the beginning of this arc talking about how her motivations were special and her out of character transformation would be explained. They weren't. Cal is as simple as she has been the entire show, and it all came down to immature abandonment issues, general insanity, and bad plot development. She knew Reiji didn't abandon her because he hated her, but instead of acting honestly and confronting him in any type of way not conducive to a two year old throwing a tantrum, she rejects reality and logic to wallow in self-pity. She didn't love him. She loved the idea of someone protecting/saving her, and when she lost it, she couldn't handle reality. It was a misunderstanding because she refused to see his side. She was happy to be ignorant of his feelings. As Mio's mother said, that isn't love.


I second this.
bla bla bla
The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.
Niko-kun said:
On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard?
 
09-20-09, 5:46 PM

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Wow Great Episode Cant Wait for 26!!! :)
 
09-21-09, 12:51 AM

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I loved this ep, too bad that Cal finally came to her senses after she was nearly dead ; (

It was cool as Ein killed the Ghodo Gang

Reiji with the Steyr Scout sub machine gun looks also cool, I he'll will kill him all
The "Zahlenschwestern" as End Boss makes me feel a bit qualmish.

Beetrain please don't ruin it...
 
09-21-09, 10:29 AM

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noteDhero said:
Look, Mentar, you've spent the beginning of this arc talking about how her motivations were special and her out of character transformation would be explained. They weren't. Cal is as simple as she has been the entire show, and it all came down to immature abandonment issues, general insanity, and bad plot development.


Now that's what I call rewriting history. Ever since chapter 3 began, your meme has been "this show/Cal are stupid and making no sense". And now that the motivation and reason behind Cal's actions finally becomes evident, you suddenly pretend that this was what you said all along. It wasn't. You're finally shifting your position a bit closer to the truth and don't have the intellectual honesty to admit it. Even so, you're still off. So I'll take my time to recreate and comment on the development once more.

Cal isn't "stupid", she never has been, in fact she has shown the capability to quickly grasp and process new information, particularly in chapter 2. And it most certainly hasn't been "bad plot development", which in your use is a synonym for "I don't like/comprehend the way things are going". Cal underwent several stages of development in the third chapter, and "one size fits all" (she was stupid all along) is the conveniently arrogant-dismissive oversimplification which got on my nerve all the time.

"Immature" - attributing this to a little girl who managed to survive on her own in urban Armerica is questionable to begin with. Abandonment issues is naturally true: She was in love with Reiji, and the fact is that he did abandon her. Sitting in the bombed-out apartment was traumatic - she trusted Reiji unquestioningly, so she was sure that he had died, after all he had promised to come back and look for her, which he never did.

Then SM appeared and claimed that Reiji was still alive. However, being the big manipulator that he was, he framed things so that Reiji was a liar and betrayer all time long. That he had abandoned her and escaped with another woman, leaving Cal behind. And why? Because Reiji knew that Cal was so skilled that she would surpass him soon as Phantom. This bastard! If you want to attribute stupidity to Cal for believing SM, feel free - however, why should she NOT believe SM? What he's saying is making perfect sense, and he is obviously supported by the facts. Reiji did NOT return to look for Cal. He DID escape with another woman. And, even worse, when Cal eventually confronts him in Japan, she finds him on a date with YET ANOTHER girl.

Now, what does Reiji do on seeing her again? Cheer and show happiness that Cal is alive after all? No trace of that, no, he pales like having seen a ghost. And what does he do when she confronts him again, when he had time to think through all implications? He didn't try to explain anything to her. He didn't try to express happiness that Cal was alive. He said that he deserved death for what he did. HE WAS PLEADING GUILTY. He implicitly _confirmed_ Cal's (objectively wrong) suspicion that he had indeed knowingly abandoned her for Elen. He was even begging for MERCY to spare her. He cared for Elen even more than for his own life. What more proof could Cal possibly get? This is when she blew her gasket and harmed Reiji for the first time ever, punching her disappointment and frustration into him.

Bitter about the outcome, she was drinking with Lizzie, who tried to tell Cal that Reiji did try to protect her in the past. But for Cal - Reiji's guilt now proven - a different memory was more prevalent: His efforts to keep Cal OUT of the underworld. As an omniscient viewer, we know it was to spare Cal the horrible life. Based on what SM said, it was because he was afraid she would take his place as phantom. So, Cal misunderstands what Lizzie was trying to tell her: Namely, that the "he was protecting you" (from Inferno's Wisemel, what Cal couldn't know) was rather about the attempt to keep Cal at bay.

So what does Reiji do next? He blackmails the Godoh Group threatening to kill Mio, the same girl he was on a DATE with two times for crying out loud. How much of a bastard do you have to be to do that? Then again, Cal KNOWS that he is a betraying lying bastard, so she is only annoyed that she is ordered out of Reiji's fur. However, she's smart enough to correctly figure out that this threat is actually just a bluff (a scene from the VN where she confronts Reiji and Mio in a family restaurant once more was omitted, from which she could deduce that Reiji was worried about Mio), and she's turning the tables on him by abducting Mio herself, and so preventing his disappearance.

However, this was when she started to have doubts again. If he was such a bastard using all women, why would he suddenly show concern for Mio? And things got even worse when Mio started talking to her about Reiji. Because Mio was telling her stories from the Reiji of old, the caring Reiji, the Reiji she loved. It was just like a time jump - Mio like the Cal of old, wrapped in the loving care of the Reiji of old. At first, Cal tried to laugh it off, and thought of Mio nothing but a spoiled princess without a clue, deceived just like she did. But Mio's inner strength, her conviction and perseverance were increasingly hard for Cal to overcome. And when Mio insisted - and stuck to it under pressure - that Reiji had told her that he was GLAD to have seen Cal alive again, a dam of bitterness broke and she got violent with Mio. But when her rage was over, she had to admit to herself that she WANTED to believe, and that she only wanted to be with him again. Not to kill him. But there was no way she could return to these old days.

Mio had done nothing to her, so she essentially apologized to her and set her free. Cal was determined to end the charade now, by being true to what she thought she was: Phantom. This aspect was explained in the bar scene. Confronting herself with the ghosts of the past (Judy, Lizzie) she admits to herself that nothing at all will come out of this confrontation, but she angrily retorts that nothing would come out of any other thing she could do either. The omelette was baked, there was no way to make eggs out of it anymore. But at least she could go out as Phantom: In the past, as Cal, she had always been the victim of murder and destruction. But as Phantom, she wasn't the victim anymore, she was the one inflicting this harm on others. She couldn't stand being the victim, it had broken her in the past. Being Phantom was her way of protecting herself from her victim past. So she resigned herself to die, as the hollow bravado shell of Phantom - but no victim.

Reiji was never a help in all this. Instead of understanding the urgent call from Mio, that Cal was not beyond the pale and could be saved if he was just able to talk to her, he once more essentially abandoned Cal by forcing the duel on her. It's a position I can understand to a degree by saying that leaving Cal alive endangers the other people Reiji has sworn to protect, but it was a hollow way to do it (which is why I prefer the resolution to the Cal path). About the duel itself: Cal's talk with Mio, later with the ghosts ("I'll kill her and then I'll burn out") and finally burning her Bugatti made clear that she wanted to die this night.

It's obvious why Cal was happy in the end: The nightmare was over, and she could see for herself that Reiji was crying over her. In the final minute, she finally had the guy she loved for herself, and it was clear that both shared the same dream. That they would have been happy together, if the circumstances hadn't forced them apart. That he genuinely cared for her and shed tears for her. And so she died.

So, we had a gradual development over multiple phases, and seen from her POV (something which you _always_ fail to do), it's been fairly understandable why she reacted the way she did. Instead, you're going with your usual oblivious omniscient-viewer knowledge and arrogantly declare stupid/bad plot development what you dislike and don't comprehend.

She knew Reiji didn't abandon her because he hated her,


No, she didn't. That's the point. Not until the very end, when Mio told her that Reiji himself had told her he was happy that she was alive. Even then, it wasn't knowledge, it was creeping doubt.

but instead of acting honestly and confronting him in any type of way not conducive to a two year old throwing a tantrum, she rejects reality and logic to wallow in self-pity.


She had no knowledge about it, how could she? The one who should have done so was Reiji, but he didn't - just the opposite. He pleaded guilty.

If you want to uphold your position, list episodes and timecodes for evidence that she should have known.

She didn't love him.


Oh yes, she did. That was the problem. If she hadn't loved him, she wouldn't have been so devastated on hearing that he had abandoned her. And in chapter 3, if she hadn't loved him, he would have been dead.

She loved the idea of someone protecting/saving her, and when she lost it, she couldn't handle reality.


This aspect is partly true. Since there WAS NOONE to protect and save her, she turned into phantom. The victim turned into the villain. That was her way to cope with things.

It was a misunderstanding because she refused to see his side.


Nonsense. It was a misunderstanding because Reiji never TOLD his side, and instead pretended to be guilty. If he had done that, things would probably have developed differently.

She was happy to be ignorant of his feelings.


Wow, this is breathtakingly stupid. In case you failed to watch the show, she was NEVER shown to be happy about his feelings in chapter 3. She was first angry, and then at the end crying her eyes out. But please indicate episodes and timecodes to show where she was happy about her misunderstanding.

As Mio's mother said, that isn't love.


Taken completely out of context, it simply doesn't apply for a non-civilian like Cal. I even explained that before, but then again, you suck at understanding explanations too, so it's par for the course.

The reason why I'm so often provoked to react to your notes is that you're the posterboy of a kind of anime viewer which I abhor: The judgmental oblivious omniscient-viewer. Who is either too lazy or intellectually incapable of seeing the points of view of the characters he is judging. Who is applying his omniscient-viewer knowledge to decree that what some character is doing is right or wrong, no matter whether or not it's applicable. If the story doesn't develop the way he wants to, it's "bad storywriting" or "dumb" or "makes no sense".

It's people like you who I consider the gravediggers of complex anime. Who are too lazy to properly work through anime material and demand that everything should be streamlined so that there's no potential for misunderstanding. Those who can't differentiate between what people can and can't know, how their own motivations and dispositions influence their decisions, and who blame their own shortcomings or laziness (pick your poison) on the anime writers instead.

Think about that in a quiet moment. Seriously.
 
09-21-09, 10:31 AM

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Best episode so far - most mature. Well, apart from ridiculous Ein pawnz0r killing action. Alternative reality shown in car was cool addition. Without some garbage episodes and stupid dialogues/scenes Phantom could be great show. Wasted potential.
 
09-21-09, 12:15 PM

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@Mentar: you try too hard to put depth from the visual novel into the anime. Unfortunately, you are overanalyzing stuffs from tha anime. By your standard, every single series out there can be "deep".

Unfortunately, this anime does NOT fall into the "very complex and deep" anime category. Its themes are "dark" but definitely NOT very deep or complex.

And also, Mentar, you have to realize that what you are stating is your own interpretation of the series, NOT the absolute truth. NoteDhero's interpretation of the series is reasonable as well, if you look at it from one perspecitve. Your interpretation is from another persipective. Period.

And by the way, the fact that Cal survived in a harsh environment has NOTHING to do with the maturity of her thinking and behaviour. She survived because she lived with her friend, then because of Reiji and finally because of SM. She isn't stupid in the sense that she is skillful and an intelligent learner. Emotionally speaking, she is very naive and immature, and was easily manipulated by SM. You can partially blame SM for what happened but it was also because of Reiji's stupidity as well.

And you should be more respectful of other users you refer as those "Who are too lazy to properly work through anime material and demand that everything should be streamlined so that there's no potential for misunderstanding." You are literally saying, in a nice play of word, that NoteDhero is an idiot. That is very disrespectful for users who simply has a different opinion than you. Start calling users idiots because they disagree with you is not going to get you anywhere.
bla bla bla
The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.
Niko-kun said:
On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard?
 
09-21-09, 1:56 PM

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Lol @ Cal Fans drowning in their sorrows.

Hooray for Ein ending :)
 
09-21-09, 2:17 PM

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wakka9ca said:
@Mentar: you try too hard to put depth from the visual novel into the anime. Unfortunately, you are overanalyzing stuffs from tha anime. By your standard, every single series out there can be "deep".


Only in a single instance I put VN knowledge into my rebuttal (to indicate where it deviated from the anime). All other details I mentioned came from the anime itself. It is simply up to the reader to pick them up or overlook them.

Unfortunately, this anime does NOT fall into the "very complex and deep" anime category. Its themes are "dark" but definitely NOT very deep or complex.


That's a relative statement. It definitely was much more deep than NoteDHero made it, that's why I pointed things out. And I feel the need to also note that you failed to address a single point I made as incorrect. What remains is the usual setup: Those people who take some effort in analyzing a show defending it, and those people who have a tendency to dismiss as stupid whatever they can't understand. The "pro" people give evidence for their positions, the "con" people don't.

And also, Mentar, you have to realize that what you are stating is your own interpretation of the series, NOT the absolute truth. NoteDhero's interpretation of the series is reasonable as well, if you look at it from one perspecitve. Your interpretation is from another persipective. Period.


Not period. I give evidence to support my position. You and him just put down a claim and fail to give evidence. It's pretty much always the same. If you feel you have worthwhile complaints to lodge, give them.

And by the way, the fact that Cal survived in a harsh environment has NOTHING to do with the maturity of her thinking and behaviour. She survived because she lived with her friend, then because of Reiji and finally because of SM. She isn't stupid in the sense that she is skillful and an intelligent learner.


And that is exactly the point I was making. Cal isn't "stupid" in the meaning of the word.

Emotionally speaking, she is very naive and immature, and was easily manipulated by SM. You can partially blame SM for what happened but it was also because of Reiji's stupidity as well.


Immature - okay. Easily manipulated - also okay, I guess. SM is excellent at that, as we know. But under the given circumstances (Cal under massive shock, and the facts looking extremely damning against Reiji), I don't see why her turning out as-is would not be understandable.

And you should be more respectful of other users you refer as those "Who are too lazy to properly work through anime material and demand that everything should be streamlined so that there's no potential for misunderstanding." You are literally saying, in a nice play of word, that NoteDhero is an idiot. That is very disrespectful for users who simply has a different opinion than you. Start calling users idiots because they disagree with you is not going to get you anywhere.


This shoe is up for yourself to wear or not. I don't criticize people as oblivious very easily, you need to earn the honor, and NoteDHero sure as hell did. I have my doubts that he'll do what I suggest and reflect whether or not what I wrote was justified or not, but I'll most definitely spell it out.

I also do enjoy discussions - even controversial ones - with people who have differing opinions, as long as they're willing to back them up and to try to contradict my own standpoints. But all too often that doesn't happen, because blanket sweeping criticism like "this character is stupid, the anime is stupid, the plot is making no sense blah blah" is making a detailed debate impossible.

If you do go the "diss it all" way, make sure you do it with justification, and not have future developments contradict whatever you said (happened all too often). Or just leave to nicer animes. But if you do stay and diss, don't cry if you catch flak for it.
 
09-21-09, 2:34 PM

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Why would people try and contradict you when you are basically repeating the same thing over and over again?
Why should they waste their time and ruin the show just like you are doing right now? You are obviously not a real fan, no matter what you say.
So you liked the Visual novel? Who the fuck cares? You should really just shut the fuck up and let people enjoy the show. It's an Ein ending. Cal died and it was her fault, if you are trying to put the blame on Reiji, you also have to put the blame on other people *cough* Sycthe *cough*
It's people like you that discourage people to watch this show.
 
09-21-09, 2:43 PM

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Mentar said:

Now that's what I call rewriting history. Ever since chapter 3 began, your meme has been "this show/Cal are stupid and making no sense". And now that the motivation and reason behind Cal's actions finally becomes evident, you suddenly pretend that this was what you said all along. It wasn't. You're finally shifting your position a bit closer to the truth and don't have the intellectual honesty to admit it. Even so, you're still off. So I'll take my time to recreate and comment on the development once more.

Cal isn't "stupid", she never has been, in fact she has shown the capability to quickly grasp and process new information, particularly in chapter 2. And it most certainly hasn't been "bad plot development", which in your use is a synonym for "I don't like/comprehend the way things are going". Cal underwent several stages of development in the third chapter, and "one size fits all" (she was stupid all along) is the conveniently arrogant-dismissive oversimplification which got on my nerve all the time.

"Immature" - attributing this to a little girl who managed to survive on her own in urban Armerica is questionable to begin with. Abandonment issues is naturally true: She was in love with Reiji, and the fact is that he did abandon her. Sitting in the bombed-out apartment was traumatic - she trusted Reiji unquestioningly, so she was sure that he had died, after all he had promised to come back and look for her, which he never did.

Then SM appeared and claimed that Reiji was still alive. However, being the big manipulator that he was, he framed things so that Reiji was a liar and betrayer all time long. That he had abandoned her and escaped with another woman, leaving Cal behind. And why? Because Reiji knew that Cal was so skilled that she would surpass him soon as Phantom. This bastard! If you want to attribute stupidity to Cal for believing SM, feel free - however, why should she NOT believe SM? What he's saying is making perfect sense, and he is obviously supported by the facts. Reiji did NOT return to look for Cal. He DID escape with another woman. And, even worse, when Cal eventually confronts him in Japan, she finds him on a date with YET ANOTHER girl.

Now, what does Reiji do on seeing her again? Cheer and show happiness that Cal is alive after all? No trace of that, no, he pales like having seen a ghost. And what does he do when she confronts him again, when he had time to think through all implications? He didn't try to explain anything to her. He didn't try to express happiness that Cal was alive. He said that he deserved death for what he did. HE WAS PLEADING GUILTY. He implicitly _confirmed_ Cal's (objectively wrong) suspicion that he had indeed knowingly abandoned her for Elen. He was even begging for MERCY to spare her. He cared for Elen even more than for his own life. What more proof could Cal possibly get? This is when she blew her gasket and harmed Reiji for the first time ever, punching her disappointment and frustration into him.

Bitter about the outcome, she was drinking with Lizzie, who tried to tell Cal that Reiji did try to protect her in the past. But for Cal - Reiji's guilt now proven - a different memory was more prevalent: His efforts to keep Cal OUT of the underworld. As an omniscient viewer, we know it was to spare Cal the horrible life. Based on what SM said, it was because he was afraid she would take his place as phantom. So, Cal misunderstands what Lizzie was trying to tell her: Namely, that the "he was protecting you" (from Inferno's Wisemel, what Cal couldn't know) was rather about the attempt to keep Cal at bay.

So what does Reiji do next? He blackmails the Godoh Group threatening to kill Mio, the same girl he was on a DATE with two times for crying out loud. How much of a bastard do you have to be to do that? Then again, Cal KNOWS that he is a betraying lying bastard, so she is only annoyed that she is ordered out of Reiji's fur. However, she's smart enough to correctly figure out that this threat is actually just a bluff (a scene from the VN where she confronts Reiji and Mio in a family restaurant once more was omitted, from which she could deduce that Reiji was worried about Mio), and she's turning the tables on him by abducting Mio herself, and so preventing his disappearance.

However, this was when she started to have doubts again. If he was such a bastard using all women, why would he suddenly show concern for Mio? And things got even worse when Mio started talking to her about Reiji. Because Mio was telling her stories from the Reiji of old, the caring Reiji, the Reiji she loved. It was just like a time jump - Mio like the Cal of old, wrapped in the loving care of the Reiji of old. At first, Cal tried to laugh it off, and thought of Mio nothing but a spoiled princess without a clue, deceived just like she did. But Mio's inner strength, her conviction and perseverance were increasingly hard for Cal to overcome. And when Mio insisted - and stuck to it under pressure - that Reiji had told her that he was GLAD to have seen Cal alive again, a dam of bitterness broke and she got violent with Mio. But when her rage was over, she had to admit to herself that she WANTED to believe, and that she only wanted to be with him again. Not to kill him. But there was no way she could return to these old days.

Mio had done nothing to her, so she essentially apologized to her and set her free. Cal was determined to end the charade now, by being true to what she thought she was: Phantom. This aspect was explained in the bar scene. Confronting herself with the ghosts of the past (Judy, Lizzie) she admits to herself that nothing at all will come out of this confrontation, but she angrily retorts that nothing would come out of any other thing she could do either. The omelette was baked, there was no way to make eggs out of it anymore. But at least she could go out as Phantom: In the past, as Cal, she had always been the victim of murder and destruction. But as Phantom, she wasn't the victim anymore, she was the one inflicting this harm on others. She couldn't stand being the victim, it had broken her in the past. Being Phantom was her way of protecting herself from her victim past. So she resigned herself to die, as the hollow bravado shell of Phantom - but no victim.

Reiji was never a help in all this. Instead of understanding the urgent call from Mio, that Cal was not beyond the pale and could be saved if he was just able to talk to her, he once more essentially abandoned Cal by forcing the duel on her. It's a position I can understand to a degree by saying that leaving Cal alive endangers the other people Reiji has sworn to protect, but it was a hollow way to do it (which is why I prefer the resolution to the Cal path). About the duel itself: Cal's talk with Mio, later with the ghosts ("I'll kill her and then I'll burn out") and finally burning her Bugatti made clear that she wanted to die this night.

It's obvious why Cal was happy in the end: The nightmare was over, and she could see for herself that Reiji was crying over her. In the final minute, she finally had the guy she loved for herself, and it was clear that both shared the same dream. That they would have been happy together, if the circumstances hadn't forced them apart. That he genuinely cared for her and shed tears for her. And so she died.

So, we had a gradual development over multiple phases, and seen from her POV (something which you _always_ fail to do), it's been fairly understandable why she reacted the way she did. Instead, you're going with your usual oblivious omniscient-viewer knowledge and arrogantly declare stupid/bad plot development what you dislike and don't comprehend.

She knew Reiji didn't abandon her because he hated her,


No, she didn't. That's the point. Not until the very end, when Mio told her that Reiji himself had told her he was happy that she was alive. Even then, it wasn't knowledge, it was creeping doubt.


She had no knowledge about it, how could she? The one who should have done so was Reiji, but he didn't - just the opposite. He pleaded guilty.

If you want to uphold your position, list episodes and timecodes for evidence that she should have known.


Oh yes, she did. That was the problem. If she hadn't loved him, she wouldn't have been so devastated on hearing that he had abandoned her. And in chapter 3, if she hadn't loved him, he would have been dead.

This aspect is partly true. Since there WAS NOONE to protect and save her, she turned into phantom. The victim turned into the villain. That was her way to cope with things.

Nonsense. It was a misunderstanding because Reiji never TOLD his side, and instead pretended to be guilty. If he had done that, things would probably have developed differently.

Wow, this is breathtakingly stupid. In case you failed to watch the show, she was NEVER shown to be happy about his feelings in chapter 3. She was first angry, and then at the end crying her eyes out. But please indicate episodes and timecodes to show where she was happy about her misunderstanding.


Taken completely out of context, it simply doesn't apply for a non-civilian like Cal. I even explained that before, but then again, you suck at understanding explanations too, so it's par for the course.

The reason why I'm so often provoked to react to your notes is that you're the posterboy of a kind of anime viewer which I abhor: The judgmental oblivious omniscient-viewer. Who is either too lazy or intellectually incapable of seeing the points of view of the characters he is judging. Who is applying his omniscient-viewer knowledge to decree that what some character is doing is right or wrong, no matter whether or not it's applicable. If the story doesn't develop the way he wants to, it's "bad storywriting" or "dumb" or "makes no sense".

It's people like you who I consider the gravediggers of complex anime. Who are too lazy to properly work through anime material and demand that everything should be streamlined so that there's no potential for misunderstanding. Those who can't differentiate between what people can and can't know, how their own motivations and dispositions influence their decisions, and who blame their own shortcomings or laziness (pick your poison) on the anime writers instead.

Think about that in a quiet moment. Seriously.


It's funny that you say that since the beginning of the arc I've only been saying that the show and Cal are stupid and make no sense. In the episode 20 discussion, I express my shock at the change in Cal, and say nothing regarding her being stupid since I don't even think she said more than 3 lines in the episode (if any). We had one discussion in episode 21 regarding the disconnect I felt betweeen Cal's behavior and the time skip, and somehow that paint everything in the proceeding episode discussions. I purposefully kept mum on discussing her because I believe you said something to the effect of "I don't want to spoil you, but it get explained." You also made references in subsequent discussions about how "if the viewers are paying attention, things about what happened during the timeskip become more obvious." My comments have pretty much stuck to the formula: "adjective" episode, couple of things I found noteworthy that maybe haven't been discussed.

Here are the places in which I join episode discussions if you disagree and would like to point out those places where I am wrong:
20
21
22
23
24
In 21's discussion, I state how it seems like Cal hates Reiji because he left her, and Scythe using simple manipulation to exacerbate her darker feelings. I also noted (either in that discusson or another), that because we got little insight into Reiji's drastic change that it wouldn't be likely that we would get one with Cal. What more got explained during the course of the arc?

You tend to harp on the word "stupid" in my comments to describe Cal (which, during the course of this arc has only really been used in this discussion I believe). What you overlook is that I have used the word "simple" more to describe her. She was a very superficial character that existed almost entirely to antagonize Reiji in this arc. I do believe that I have remarked that it felt like she acted only as plot dicatated as opposed to a whole character, and I stand by that statement.

Something that I have tried to say using different tactics now is that we are initially told this: Cal is a cunning girl who has a bit of a dark side that comes out when she wants revenge. She is also very upbeat considering her terrible past, talented at fixing things, and has a natural inclination towards firearms. The word genius is thrown around a lot. We find out later that she has grown fond of Reiji, and in defending him as a "good" assassin, we see that she is quite naive.

What we get in the third arc is a Cal who focuses her cunning mind and talent at weapons as the third Phantom incarnation, with her only goal to destroy Reiji. She does not use this mind to deduce what happens during the events of the night that significantly changed her life. Although being very fond of Reiji, she never outright asks him what happened. Though she was told a couple of times by Lizzie that she and Reiji were trying to protect her, she is totally blinded by her bloodlust and eventually kills her.

These aren't the actions of a smart character. These are the actions of the simple minded protagonists of shounen anime who ignore reality to pursue some righteous ideal. She stands in total contradiction of herself with the only explanation being, "Well, everyone left me, and SM told me what I wanted to hear." Not to mention that SM was a total stranger to her.

Reiji made things worse. I had already stated that, but Cal had enough information on her side to question Reiji's circumstances, and ask for an explanation. She meets him a number of times, and never asks for an explanation. That fault lies on both of them. You can't blame one when they're both fully functional individuals. That is yet another assessment I made during this arc: No one cares to say or ask anything that would clear everything up, mostly because they are too selfish to actually see the need for it.

As far as the "happy to be ignorant of his feelings" comment goes, you must not be aware of the axiom "ignorance is bliss," so I'll rephrase. Cal did not see the merit in taking Reiji's situation into account. She was already content with burning out, so despite the fact that Lizzie tried to tell her otherwise regarding Reiji, and that even Mio understood him better, Cal defiantly refused to face reality a number of times, and in the end, was actually happy instead of saddened that her death was very avoidable, and that she even killed Lizzie in the process.

I'll explain Mio's mothers' words again: If Cal really loved Reiji, she would have recognized his longing to live a normal life and instead of dirty herself to be with him, do that. She didn't love him. She longed to stay under the protection of someone else's watch. Cal is simple.

Finally, I agree with wakka.
 
09-21-09, 5:18 PM

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Posts: 1917
i honestly didnt want Cal to die..
 
09-21-09, 5:28 PM

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Posts: 34
Ximinez said:
Best episode so far - most mature. Well, apart from ridiculous Ein pawnz0r killing action. Alternative reality shown in car was cool addition. Without some garbage episodes and stupid dialogues/scenes Phantom could be great show. Wasted potential.


I second this.

And bottom line, this show is lacking. Some people like it some people don't, no problem with that. But this show is NOT an intellectual brain teaser. Let's be real. And the directing here and there is much to be desired. Definitely wasted potential.

Oh and Cal dying? I can't believe they wrapped that up so quickly. Haha. I'm bout ready for this show to be finished.


 
09-21-09, 6:59 PM

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Posts: 1337
Fleri said:
Why would people try and contradict you when you are basically repeating the same thing over and over again?
Why should they waste their time and ruin the show just like you are doing right now? You are obviously not a real fan, no matter what you say.
So you liked the Visual novel? Who the fuck cares? You should really just shut the fuck up and let people enjoy the show. It's an Ein ending. Cal died and it was her fault, if you are trying to put the blame on Reiji, you also have to put the blame on other people *cough* Sycthe *cough*
It's people like you that discourage people to watch this show.


Sorry to butt in, but you do realize this is a FORUM right? Its purpose is to give people like Mentar and noteDhero, who like to debate, a chance to do what they like. So I honestly dont see why he has to "shut the fuck up" other than you enjoy insulting other people.

I don't really care which dictatorship country you are coming from, but here we value FREEDOM OF SPEECH, included in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights , you see?



If he's not with us, he's AGAINST us!!!

 
09-21-09, 7:57 PM

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Posts: 105
BitchMaster said:
Sorry to butt in, but you do realize this is a FORUM right? Its purpose is to give people like Mentar and noteDhero, who like to debate, a chance to do what they like. So I honestly dont see why he has to "shut the fuck up" other than you enjoy insulting other people.

I don't really care which dictatorship country you are coming from, but here we value FREEDOM OF SPEECH, included in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights , you see?


Yes, coming from the guy who started lashing out when Cal died. Seriously, like I said, stop drowning in your sorrows.

suki suki 5 dolla ;)
 
09-21-09, 9:08 PM

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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1337
Fleri said:
BitchMaster said:
Sorry to butt in, but you do realize this is a FORUM right? Its purpose is to give people like Mentar and noteDhero, who like to debate, a chance to do what they like. So I honestly dont see why he has to "shut the fuck up" other than you enjoy insulting other people.

I don't really care which dictatorship country you are coming from, but here we value FREEDOM OF SPEECH, included in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights , you see?




Yes, coming from the guy who started lashing out when Cal died. Seriously, like I said, stop drowning in your sorrows.

suki suki 5 dolla ;)


Oh? So pardon my stupidity but what's the relation between what I said regarding people is free to debate in a forum and me "lashing out"? LOL, out of context much?

"suki suki 5 dolla"=? LOL ?



If he's not with us, he's AGAINST us!!!

 
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