Phantom ~Requiem for the Phantom~ Episode 25 Discussion
Sep 20, 2009 1:21 PM
Sep 20, 2009 1:44 PM
Sep 20, 2009 2:25 PM
Sep 20, 2009 2:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
You're missing the point. This quote refers to the special situation that _civilians_ like Mio and her mother cannot be with underworld criminals without exposing them to the dangers that Reiji/Godoh want to protect them from. Therefore, for them it's a bigger sign of love NOT to be with them and so allow them to give their loved ones the life they themselves want but cannot get. Cal, on the other hand is already fully integrated in the underworld. The point of the statement simply doesn't apply to her.
I'd say that for the vast majority of viewers, it was poignant enough, reading through the reactions. But you never understood her character anyway, so why would you suddenly develop empathy now? :)
If you weren't a generally oblivious viewer I'd suggest that you rewatch the scene for clues, since it works out very well the main reason which broke Cal. Hint: Check the last two sentences she said in the shot-up bar. I'm not holding my breath though.
That was also explained in the "crazy" part, no wonder that you missed it too. She already said that she'd only kill Ein and then "burn out". In other words, she's burning bridges. She was planning to die this night.
It wasn't really incoherent. It takes about 5 brain cells to figure out what she's saying, and why she's saying it. She loved him - all the time till the end - and she (and Reiji) regretted that they "messed up on the way". What hurt her particularly was the misunderstanding that Reiji didn't care for her anymore and simply replaced her for Ein (which is why she wanted to kill her as revenge). She never _really_ wanted to kill Reiji. She wanted to hear that he cared for her after all. And this is what she got in the end.
No. I'm not missing the point. The point is that Reiji was specifically trying to keep Cal away from the the underworld, and wanted her to have a normal life. Cal didn't want that. Instead she wanted to live in some idealized world where she and Reiji would kill "uninnocent" people for Inferno and be together forever. That is the naivety that I am pointing out. Not only was she that ignorant, she willingly stayed that ignorant despite learning the facts of what happened that night, and Lizzie's attempts to help her understand. She was a stupid child, plain and simple.
The burning out that she speaks of doing is yet another example of her selfish refusal to see the facts of the situation around her. Cal wanted to be hurt/play the victim, so she created this scenario in her head to justify all of her actions. That's why the few times that a third party has something to say, she get's irritated--they're calling her out on her foolishness and she just doesn't want to hear it. Again, this speaks to her insanely inflated ego, she thought that she would get the death she wanted, and actually kill a former Phantom after downing bottles of alcohol? Give me a break.
Look, Mentar, you've spent the beginning of this arc talking about how her motivations were special and her out of character transformation would be explained. They weren't. Cal is as simple as she has been the entire show, and it all came down to immature abandonment issues, general insanity, and bad plot development. She knew Reiji didn't abandon her because he hated her, but instead of acting honestly and confronting him in any type of way not conducive to a two year old throwing a tantrum, she rejects reality and logic to wallow in self-pity. She didn't love him. She loved the idea of someone protecting/saving her, and when she lost it, she couldn't handle reality. It was a misunderstanding because she refused to see his side. She was happy to be ignorant of his feelings. As Mio's mother said, that isn't love.
Thanks for summarizing what I posted when they first introduced grown up Cal lol.
@AlliedG - Scythe just told her what she wanted to hear over and over again to fuel her "anger". "Reiji left you for another women", "Reiji abandoned you", "Reiji doesn't care about you anymore"...etc. She was already aware of the real reason Reiji left her after a year but her Naivety and stubbornness got the better of her.
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Sep 20, 2009 5:12 PM
Sep 20, 2009 5:44 PM
Sep 20, 2009 5:46 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Wow Great Episode Cant Wait for 26!!! :)
Sep 21, 2009 12:51 AM
Sep 21, 2009 10:29 AM
Sep 21, 2009 10:31 AM
Sep 21, 2009 12:15 PM
Sep 21, 2009 1:56 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Lol @ Cal Fans drowning in their sorrows.
Hooray for Ein ending :)
Sep 21, 2009 2:17 PM
Sep 21, 2009 2:34 PM
Sep 21, 2009 2:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Now that's what I call rewriting history. Ever since chapter 3 began, your meme has been "this show/Cal are stupid and making no sense". And now that the motivation and reason behind Cal's actions finally becomes evident, you suddenly pretend that this was what you said all along. It wasn't. You're finally shifting your position a bit closer to the truth and don't have the intellectual honesty to admit it. Even so, you're still off. So I'll take my time to recreate and comment on the development once more.
Cal isn't "stupid", she never has been, in fact she has shown the capability to quickly grasp and process new information, particularly in chapter 2. And it most certainly hasn't been "bad plot development", which in your use is a synonym for "I don't like/comprehend the way things are going". Cal underwent several stages of development in the third chapter, and "one size fits all" (she was stupid all along) is the conveniently arrogant-dismissive oversimplification which got on my nerve all the time.
"Immature" - attributing this to a little girl who managed to survive on her own in urban Armerica is questionable to begin with. Abandonment issues is naturally true: She was in love with Reiji, and the fact is that he did abandon her. Sitting in the bombed-out apartment was traumatic - she trusted Reiji unquestioningly, so she was sure that he had died, after all he had promised to come back and look for her, which he never did.
Then SM appeared and claimed that Reiji was still alive. However, being the big manipulator that he was, he framed things so that Reiji was a liar and betrayer all time long. That he had abandoned her and escaped with another woman, leaving Cal behind. And why? Because Reiji knew that Cal was so skilled that she would surpass him soon as Phantom. This bastard! If you want to attribute stupidity to Cal for believing SM, feel free - however, why should she NOT believe SM? What he's saying is making perfect sense, and he is obviously supported by the facts. Reiji did NOT return to look for Cal. He DID escape with another woman. And, even worse, when Cal eventually confronts him in Japan, she finds him on a date with YET ANOTHER girl.
Now, what does Reiji do on seeing her again? Cheer and show happiness that Cal is alive after all? No trace of that, no, he pales like having seen a ghost. And what does he do when she confronts him again, when he had time to think through all implications? He didn't try to explain anything to her. He didn't try to express happiness that Cal was alive. He said that he deserved death for what he did. HE WAS PLEADING GUILTY. He implicitly _confirmed_ Cal's (objectively wrong) suspicion that he had indeed knowingly abandoned her for Elen. He was even begging for MERCY to spare her. He cared for Elen even more than for his own life. What more proof could Cal possibly get? This is when she blew her gasket and harmed Reiji for the first time ever, punching her disappointment and frustration into him.
Bitter about the outcome, she was drinking with Lizzie, who tried to tell Cal that Reiji did try to protect her in the past. But for Cal - Reiji's guilt now proven - a different memory was more prevalent: His efforts to keep Cal OUT of the underworld. As an omniscient viewer, we know it was to spare Cal the horrible life. Based on what SM said, it was because he was afraid she would take his place as phantom. So, Cal misunderstands what Lizzie was trying to tell her: Namely, that the "he was protecting you" (from Inferno's Wisemel, what Cal couldn't know) was rather about the attempt to keep Cal at bay.
So what does Reiji do next? He blackmails the Godoh Group threatening to kill Mio, the same girl he was on a DATE with two times for crying out loud. How much of a bastard do you have to be to do that? Then again, Cal KNOWS that he is a betraying lying bastard, so she is only annoyed that she is ordered out of Reiji's fur. However, she's smart enough to correctly figure out that this threat is actually just a bluff (a scene from the VN where she confronts Reiji and Mio in a family restaurant once more was omitted, from which she could deduce that Reiji was worried about Mio), and she's turning the tables on him by abducting Mio herself, and so preventing his disappearance.
However, this was when she started to have doubts again. If he was such a bastard using all women, why would he suddenly show concern for Mio? And things got even worse when Mio started talking to her about Reiji. Because Mio was telling her stories from the Reiji of old, the caring Reiji, the Reiji she loved. It was just like a time jump - Mio like the Cal of old, wrapped in the loving care of the Reiji of old. At first, Cal tried to laugh it off, and thought of Mio nothing but a spoiled princess without a clue, deceived just like she did. But Mio's inner strength, her conviction and perseverance were increasingly hard for Cal to overcome. And when Mio insisted - and stuck to it under pressure - that Reiji had told her that he was GLAD to have seen Cal alive again, a dam of bitterness broke and she got violent with Mio. But when her rage was over, she had to admit to herself that she WANTED to believe, and that she only wanted to be with him again. Not to kill him. But there was no way she could return to these old days.
Mio had done nothing to her, so she essentially apologized to her and set her free. Cal was determined to end the charade now, by being true to what she thought she was: Phantom. This aspect was explained in the bar scene. Confronting herself with the ghosts of the past (Judy, Lizzie) she admits to herself that nothing at all will come out of this confrontation, but she angrily retorts that nothing would come out of any other thing she could do either. The omelette was baked, there was no way to make eggs out of it anymore. But at least she could go out as Phantom: In the past, as Cal, she had always been the victim of murder and destruction. But as Phantom, she wasn't the victim anymore, she was the one inflicting this harm on others. She couldn't stand being the victim, it had broken her in the past. Being Phantom was her way of protecting herself from her victim past. So she resigned herself to die, as the hollow bravado shell of Phantom - but no victim.
Reiji was never a help in all this. Instead of understanding the urgent call from Mio, that Cal was not beyond the pale and could be saved if he was just able to talk to her, he once more essentially abandoned Cal by forcing the duel on her. It's a position I can understand to a degree by saying that leaving Cal alive endangers the other people Reiji has sworn to protect, but it was a hollow way to do it (which is why I prefer the resolution to the Cal path). About the duel itself: Cal's talk with Mio, later with the ghosts ("I'll kill her and then I'll burn out") and finally burning her Bugatti made clear that she wanted to die this night.
It's obvious why Cal was happy in the end: The nightmare was over, and she could see for herself that Reiji was crying over her. In the final minute, she finally had the guy she loved for herself, and it was clear that both shared the same dream. That they would have been happy together, if the circumstances hadn't forced them apart. That he genuinely cared for her and shed tears for her. And so she died.
So, we had a gradual development over multiple phases, and seen from her POV (something which you _always_ fail to do), it's been fairly understandable why she reacted the way she did. Instead, you're going with your usual oblivious omniscient-viewer knowledge and arrogantly declare stupid/bad plot development what you dislike and don't comprehend.
She knew Reiji didn't abandon her because he hated her,
No, she didn't. That's the point. Not until the very end, when Mio told her that Reiji himself had told her he was happy that she was alive. Even then, it wasn't knowledge, it was creeping doubt.
She had no knowledge about it, how could she? The one who should have done so was Reiji, but he didn't - just the opposite. He pleaded guilty.
If you want to uphold your position, list episodes and timecodes for evidence that she should have known.
Oh yes, she did. That was the problem. If she hadn't loved him, she wouldn't have been so devastated on hearing that he had abandoned her. And in chapter 3, if she hadn't loved him, he would have been dead.
This aspect is partly true. Since there WAS NOONE to protect and save her, she turned into phantom. The victim turned into the villain. That was her way to cope with things.
Nonsense. It was a misunderstanding because Reiji never TOLD his side, and instead pretended to be guilty. If he had done that, things would probably have developed differently.
Wow, this is breathtakingly stupid. In case you failed to watch the show, she was NEVER shown to be happy about his feelings in chapter 3. She was first angry, and then at the end crying her eyes out. But please indicate episodes and timecodes to show where she was happy about her misunderstanding.
Taken completely out of context, it simply doesn't apply for a non-civilian like Cal. I even explained that before, but then again, you suck at understanding explanations too, so it's par for the course.
The reason why I'm so often provoked to react to your notes is that you're the posterboy of a kind of anime viewer which I abhor: The judgmental oblivious omniscient-viewer. Who is either too lazy or intellectually incapable of seeing the points of view of the characters he is judging. Who is applying his omniscient-viewer knowledge to decree that what some character is doing is right or wrong, no matter whether or not it's applicable. If the story doesn't develop the way he wants to, it's "bad storywriting" or "dumb" or "makes no sense".
It's people like you who I consider the gravediggers of complex anime. Who are too lazy to properly work through anime material and demand that everything should be streamlined so that there's no potential for misunderstanding. Those who can't differentiate between what people can and can't know, how their own motivations and dispositions influence their decisions, and who blame their own shortcomings or laziness (pick your poison) on the anime writers instead.
Think about that in a quiet moment. Seriously.
It's funny that you say that since the beginning of the arc I've only been saying that the show and Cal are stupid and make no sense. In the episode 20 discussion, I express my shock at the change in Cal, and say nothing regarding her being stupid since I don't even think she said more than 3 lines in the episode (if any). We had one discussion in episode 21 regarding the disconnect I felt betweeen Cal's behavior and the time skip, and somehow that paint everything in the proceeding episode discussions. I purposefully kept mum on discussing her because I believe you said something to the effect of "I don't want to spoil you, but it get explained." You also made references in subsequent discussions about how "if the viewers are paying attention, things about what happened during the timeskip become more obvious." My comments have pretty much stuck to the formula: "adjective" episode, couple of things I found noteworthy that maybe haven't been discussed.
Here are the places in which I join episode discussions if you disagree and would like to point out those places where I am wrong:
In 21's discussion, I state how it seems like Cal hates Reiji because he left her, and Scythe using simple manipulation to exacerbate her darker feelings. I also noted (either in that discusson or another), that because we got little insight into Reiji's drastic change that it wouldn't be likely that we would get one with Cal. What more got explained during the course of the arc?
You tend to harp on the word "stupid" in my comments to describe Cal (which, during the course of this arc has only really been used in this discussion I believe). What you overlook is that I have used the word "simple" more to describe her. She was a very superficial character that existed almost entirely to antagonize Reiji in this arc. I do believe that I have remarked that it felt like she acted only as plot dicatated as opposed to a whole character, and I stand by that statement.
Something that I have tried to say using different tactics now is that we are initially told this: Cal is a cunning girl who has a bit of a dark side that comes out when she wants revenge. She is also very upbeat considering her terrible past, talented at fixing things, and has a natural inclination towards firearms. The word genius is thrown around a lot. We find out later that she has grown fond of Reiji, and in defending him as a "good" assassin, we see that she is quite naive.
What we get in the third arc is a Cal who focuses her cunning mind and talent at weapons as the third Phantom incarnation, with her only goal to destroy Reiji. She does not use this mind to deduce what happens during the events of the night that significantly changed her life. Although being very fond of Reiji, she never outright asks him what happened. Though she was told a couple of times by Lizzie that she and Reiji were trying to protect her, she is totally blinded by her bloodlust and eventually kills her.
These aren't the actions of a smart character. These are the actions of the simple minded protagonists of shounen anime who ignore reality to pursue some righteous ideal. She stands in total contradiction of herself with the only explanation being, "Well, everyone left me, and SM told me what I wanted to hear." Not to mention that SM was a total stranger to her.
Reiji made things worse. I had already stated that, but Cal had enough information on her side to question Reiji's circumstances, and ask for an explanation. She meets him a number of times, and never asks for an explanation. That fault lies on both of them. You can't blame one when they're both fully functional individuals. That is yet another assessment I made during this arc: No one cares to say or ask anything that would clear everything up, mostly because they are too selfish to actually see the need for it.
As far as the "happy to be ignorant of his feelings" comment goes, you must not be aware of the axiom "ignorance is bliss," so I'll rephrase. Cal did not see the merit in taking Reiji's situation into account. She was already content with burning out, so despite the fact that Lizzie tried to tell her otherwise regarding Reiji, and that even Mio understood him better, Cal defiantly refused to face reality a number of times, and in the end, was actually happy instead of saddened that her death was very avoidable, and that she even killed Lizzie in the process.
I'll explain Mio's mothers' words again: If Cal really loved Reiji, she would have recognized his longing to live a normal life and instead of dirty herself to be with him, do that. She didn't love him. She longed to stay under the protection of someone else's watch. Cal is simple.
Finally, I agree with wakka.
Sep 21, 2009 5:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
i honestly didnt want Cal to die..
Sep 21, 2009 5:28 PM
Sep 21, 2009 6:59 PM
Sep 21, 2009 7:57 PM
Sep 21, 2009 9:08 PM
Sep 21, 2009 11:45 PM
Sep 22, 2009 11:41 AM
Sep 22, 2009 3:08 PM
Sep 22, 2009 5:02 PM
Sep 22, 2009 7:42 PM
Sep 23, 2009 12:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
wow......I usually try to read all of a topic before I post....but f* that WAY to much text for my liking...
Anyway I think this was a pretty good episode I still hate Drei but the alternate reality it flashed too made me relate Cal to Drei and it did make me a bit sad to see her go.
I miss Cal though.......I think I'll go through the VN now and get the Cal ending where she doesn't lose her mind and become psychotic Drei.
Close the world,
.txƎᴎ ɘht ᴎɘpO
Sep 23, 2009 1:30 AM
Sep 23, 2009 5:10 AM
Joined: May 2008
Much better than the previous episode, but overall just decent. I did like the way they showed what would have happened if Reiji and Cal had never been separated. I also thought that the final scene with Reiji and Cal was handled in the best possible way to portray their strong bond, that even after all that time apart was still there.
Anyway, I'm kind of ready for this series to end... because imo for the most part it has become incredibly mediocre, at least compared to where it started.
Sep 23, 2009 12:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
to summarize what i wrote here in one word: crap
to much specualation and rushed with the text. so it end up being terrible bad.
Modified by Tomoharu, Sep 24, 2009 2:12 AM
Sep 23, 2009 1:01 PM
Sep 23, 2009 2:21 PM
Sep 24, 2009 2:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
I hope there will be a 2nd season.. lol
oh well can't wait for the last episode
Sep 24, 2009 10:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Why'd Cal have to die, she had a nice rack.
Sep 24, 2009 1:49 PM
Sep 25, 2009 4:25 AM
Sep 25, 2009 5:09 AM
Sep 25, 2009 5:35 AM
Sep 25, 2009 6:25 AM
Sep 25, 2009 7:21 AM
Sep 25, 2009 3:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Kvakond said:& I can't believe there's only 1 episode left. :-|
I have mixed feelings about this but none of them are too positive
Sep 29, 2009 10:23 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Poor Cal...the lolithatturnedbabethateveryonehatedbutthenlikedjustcuzofthebuttscene It wasn't the show that sucked, it was the critics *nod*
Oct 2, 2009 1:31 PM
Oct 3, 2009 1:06 PM
Oct 8, 2009 9:31 AM
Oct 8, 2009 12:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
nice episode! cal was wonderful and she was a great character!i wonder what will hapen next with the army of phantoms!
Oct 10, 2009 2:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Why did Cal have to die? Oh great, the boring ending...
Sore wa himitsu desu.
Oct 12, 2009 8:06 AM
Oct 13, 2009 10:09 AM