| Here's a rough background on this retarded story: Cliven Bundy Has No Claim to Federal Land and Grazing In the acrimonious case of Cliven Bundy, it is important that folks understand a bit about the history of the U.S. public lands. Cliven Bundy, the rancher whose cattle were rounded up and then released by the BLM over the weekend, claims that his family has used the land in question since 1880 but the Nevada Constitution pre-dates this by 16 years. When Nevada became a state in 1864, its citizens gave up all claims to unappropriated federal land and codified this in the state’s Constitution. The Nevada Constitution said: “Third. That the people inhabiting said territory do agree and declare, that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within said territory, and that the same shall be and remain at the sole and entire disposition of the United States; …..” http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2014/04/14/cliven-bundy-has-no-claim-to-federal-land-and-grazing/ Basically: 1. Cliven Bundy was allowed to let his cattle graze on Federal Land -- if he pays the grazing fees. 2. However, for some time, he has refused to pay the fees. 3. As a result, the overall fees are now totaling well over the value of his own ranch. 4. In turn, Cliven Bundy continues to use Federal land illegally. If Bundy “owns the land then where is the deed? Where are the records he paid property taxes? It’s not his land. Bundy also claims that it his “right” to graze these BLM public lands. This is not the case. The Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 specifically states that the issuance of a grazing permit does not confer any right to graze or right to own the land. 5. As a response, Cliven Bundy has declared the Federal government as illegitimate. 6. Gun nuts who share the similar view took their guns and aimed it at the cops and Federal agents in a stand off. 7. Thankfully, the stand off was simply just that. Government took a stand down. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/17/sen-reid-calls-supporters-nevada-rancher-bundy-domestic-terrorists/ To further the mess, Fox News is parading around supporting this leech and the domestic terrorists. |
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| Old men and fifteen year old girls are now the faces of terrorism, huh? The fact that paramilitary groups with broad and undefined powers and heavy duty, military hardware are roaming the nation (even the Dept. of Education has armed "agents") doesn't bother you, but some rancher who doesn't want to move over so Harry Ried can build a Chinese power plant there is HORRIBLE! Bundy isn't a hero, but he is a badass. Feds thought they could push him around and then they backed down like whipped dogs. |
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| @ OP. That's not an entirely accurate summation. In fact, it's actually completely wrong in several key areas: It would properly be more like this: 1: Prior to 1993, the Bundy family grazes as they always have in accordance with the law, including paying for grazing permits from 1973 to 1993. 2: In 1993, the BLM changes the rules regarding grazing rights in the region, completely denying previously available grazing rights for the Bunkerville land area, which is critical to Bundy's ranch. The official reason cited is to protect the endangered desert tortoise. A related new rule caps the number of cattle allowed to graze the federal land at 10% of Bundy's herd. 3: Cliven Bundy rejects the BLM's ruling, which would indeed destroy his business, advocating that he has an inherited "right" to graze the land, which has admittedly never been properly addressed by the Federal Legislature. He alternately argues that the US Federal Government does not own the land and offers to pay the State of Nevada for grazing rights, while taking the BLM to court. 4: By the end of 1998, he's lost on all counts, and is ordered to remove his cattle from the affected land or pay a fine of $200 per head, per day. He refuses, and even expands to other properties. 5: In 2012, the issue is reignited as the government goes after the still-recalcitrant Bundy for the additional lands his cattle have trespassed onto. 6: In April 2014, as the BLM moves to seize Bundy's cattle, a series of escalating incidents occur, with Bundy and local armed groups on one side and the BLM on the other. This results in some rather embarrassing (for the BLM) videos and pictures of questionable conduct, further inflaming armed groups and generating a major standoff. This is diffused when the BLM steps down. Some clear things to realize: 1: Cliven Bundy's recent and past actions are in violation of the law. This is not in question or doubt, and his supporters are fools if they don't recognize and respect this. 2: This is not about grazing fees. This is about the right to graze at all. Bundy stopped paying all grazing fees in protest, and has offered to pay them to the State of Nevada, just not the Feds that are telling him he can't graze. Of course, Nevada does not own the land (remember, he lost that argument), but he has displayed a willingness to pay for grazing, just not a willingness to accept someone telling him he can't graze at all. 3. The armed groups supporting Bundy aren't exactly Class A citizens. However, they love a chance to cause trouble for the Feds, and yet have acted with appropriate restraint. That's probably a bit more than can be said of the BLM. They also make excessive force on the part of the BLM a non-starter. If Bundy had been in the right instead of so completely in the wrong, I'd laud the way this went down. 4. There have been some interesting supposedly-BLM-issue documents floating around suggesting that the land may be intended not for a tortoise, but for a solar farm. However, the oft-cited connection to Harry Reid does not seem to go back quite that far, so it's not likely to be the original reason for the rule changes, which are nonetheless somewhat questionable due to the nature and scope of their impact on local ranchers. 5. The resurgence in the case, however, came while the BLM was headed by a person with strong ties to Harry Reid, and the developer has similar ties to the Senate Majority Leader, who also just recently broke ground on another solar farm not too far away. Combined with the documents, I'm highly inclined to believe that, at the very least, the recent flare-up was more about securing land for a solar farm than dealing with the Bundy family. 6. Ironically, the BLM and National Park Service, through their own projects and operations, actually due more damage to those poor desert tortoises than the Bundy family can ever hope to. However, unlike some others, I don't think that's either surprising or pertinent to this debate. Others disagree and think the hypocrisy is telling. |
StopDropAndBowl said: Old men and fifteen year old girls are now the faces of terrorism, huh? The fact that paramilitary groups with broad and undefined powers and heavy duty, military hardware are roaming the nation (even the Dept. of Education has armed "agents") doesn't bother you, but some rancher who doesn't want to move over so Harry Ried can build a Chinese power plant there is HORRIBLE! I've had too much crap to think about; but yes, the fact that a paramilitary group can take up their guns and point it at Feds... yea, that's not cool. StopDropAndBowl said: Bundy isn't a hero, but he is a badass. Feds thought they could push him around and then they backed down like whipped dogs. The Feds had to and did the right thing by backing down. Had it gone to the point of a shoot out, all sorts of misinformation would kick in. Fox News itself was screaming for bloodshed for an opportunity to continue with their anti-government talk and then back it up with this kind of incident. That would simply 'cause a wild fire of anger, hate, and extreme anti-government backlash. There are definitely perfectly legal ways to hand this situation -- and -- without getting much attention from the media. ParaParaJMo said: Well, the feds tasing his sons aren't exactly helping making themselves look like the good guys. But hey, constitutionally, and hell, even under imminent domain, Bundy unfortunately may have his land taken from him even if it costs him his living sadly enough. I just hope this shit doesn't go down like Waco or something like that. If anything, the Feds are likely to fire the first shot and that only helps the Bundy's and his defenders. Land taken from him? It wasn't even his to begin with. Mod Edit: Removed quote of deleted post. |
VudisMay 2, 2014 3:38 PM
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| Cliven Bundy is a dead beat plain and simple. I know that if I stopped paying rent at my apartment I would get kicked out and if I refused the leave I would be arrested. No one would protest the apartment manager kicking me.No one would have a stand down with law enforcement for arresting me. These protesters are in the wrong for sticking up for Bundy.These protesters are wrong for pointing their firearms at the BLM and wrong for using women and children as human shields. Its a shame that many in the conservative media jumped on this story as though it was big government misusing it's position.Luckily not everyone in the conservative jumped on that band wagon. If you replaced Cliven Bundy with Occu-tards would anyone in the conservative media support them as standing up to big abusive government? Heck no they wouldn't. If this the government unjustly confiscating a man's cattle for grazing off land he owned and threatened to use deadly force to do it I could support protesters having a stand off with them. |
KyuuAL said: I've had too much crap to think about; but yes, the fact that a paramilitary group can take up their guns and point it at Feds... yea, that's not cool. But it's perfectly okay for the Feds to have paramilitary groups with broad, undefined powers, sporting heavy-duty fire-power? It's perfectly okay for things like the Railroad Retirement Board to have a SWAT team? So basically, a police state is okay; but private citizens resisting a police state is not okay? |
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StopDropAndBowl said: KyuuAL said: I've had too much crap to think about; but yes, the fact that a paramilitary group can take up their guns and point it at Feds... yea, that's not cool. But it's perfectly okay for the Feds to have paramilitary groups with broad, undefined powers, sporting heavy-duty fire-power? It's perfectly okay for things like the Railroad Retirement Board to have a SWAT team? So basically, a police state is okay; but private citizens resisting a police state is not okay? Um... I support the Occupy Movement. It's the methodology that's wrong. Wanna protest? Fine. Just gather a bunch of people and resist -- without the need for arms. Armed protest = Rebellion. Yet, without the guns, that makes it easier for the police/Feds to suppress, am I right? After all, consider how Occupy gatherings were suppressed and dispersed. Suddenly, this makes me imagine an armed protest on the scale of the Occupy Movement (which spanned every major US city). That is a situation, that'll tear the country apart. If things ever go this badly, then our Constitution is dead. Is that what you want? As for Cliven Bundy - he's your prime example of a moocher. A old white profit seeker looking for all sorts of ways to cut costs - even when using a "free" resource such as public land for profit. By using the public land for profit, he's screwing the rest of us. Want to use a resource for profit? Then PAY for it. JonyJC said: @KyuuAL I'm curious, would you rather see the US staying together all 50 states, or do you want to see secession? I side with Abraham Lincoln. |
KyuuALApr 22, 2014 12:59 PM
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| Our Constitution is already pretty much dead, so yeah... How is he screwing you by using that Public land? Did you have some plans for that land? What were they? You know the other ranchers in the area supported Bundy, right? Do you know why? Because it is disingenuous to say that the feds just wanted him to pay his fees. They expected the fees alright, but they also expected him to cut his grazing down to a level where he could no longer support his business. They wouldn't have openly put him out of business, but they would have put him out all the same. The Feds own 2.27 billion acres of land. 28% of the country. And I'm supposed to care that one guy is using one miniscule portion of it? Oh wait, I forgot Harry Ried wants a CHINESE solar power plant. I side with Abraham Lincoln. Abraham Lincoln kept the country together when there was still a country worth being kept together. Not really comparable. |
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StopDropAndBowl said: Our Constitution is already pretty much dead, so yeah... It's dead because of Republicans finding ways to put themselves into government -- and then -- running the government down. Do you not remember the Republican Government Shutdown? By design, our government is capable of shutting itself down by people at key positions in government. StopDropAndBowl said: You know the other ranchers in the area supported Bundy, right? Do you know why? Well, if you put in that terms, I get it. However, they made the mistake of not acknowledging the Federal government. What do these people think that they're doing? Running their own little country? I can be a bitch MAL forum user right now. If some mod comes down at me and tells me to knock it off, can I tell said mod to "piss off"? Yea, sure. However, I'll get what's coming down at me. StopDropAndBowl said: Because it is disingenuous to say that the feds just wanted him to pay his fees. They expected the fees alright, but they also expected him to cut his grazing down to a level where he could no longer support his business. They wouldn't have openly put him out of business, but they would have put him out all the same. Then he should think like the Free Market, instead of being a Moocher. Regardless, those fees -- he owes the government. If he can't and won't pay, then yea, he's barred from using that public land. He needs to downsize his grazing activity to sustain the right number of cattle suitable for his legally owned land, without relying on public land -- that are paid by taxes. OR He should sell his property and do his ranching at a more profitable location. Though, I wouldn't want him down in Brazil. He'd do a lot more damage down there. === Even better. Maybe he should merge with all the other nearby ranchers and become one big corporate ranch. Whatever. In any case, there are better ways of handling the situation other than pointing guns at the Feds. If I were the Feds, I'd push to have a nuclear power plant built right next to the Bundy ranch. >:D |
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| The US is quickly turning in a militarized police state so stuff like this happening really shouldn't be a surprise. |
KyuuAL said: I can be a bitch MAL forum user right now. If some mod comes down at me and tells me to knock it off, can I tell said mod to "piss off"? Yea, sure. However, I'll get what's coming down at me. And if some mod presumes to take over you computer through a hostile virus, is that their right? And when you refuse to let them take over your computer, what if they send armed commandos to your house to steal your property? StopDropAndBowl said: Then he should think like the Free Market, instead of being a Moocher. Regardless, those fees -- he owes the government. If he can't and won't pay, then yea, he's barred from using that public land. Those fees were illegitimate in a good-faith sense. He paid his fees, up til 1993. And why do you think he stopped? Because they abruptly changed their policies to limit his cattle numbers and the land he could graze on, and would have effectively put him out of business even if he DID pay the fees. You're acting like this all would have been fine if he had paid his fees and followed the rules. No. He would have been driven out of business by the rules, and would have paid for the right of being screwed with fees. Let's take your MAL example. Let's pretend MAL was a paid subscription site. And then one day MAL decides to severely limit your access to the forums, raise the yearly subscription price, and then, when you stop paying your subscription, they send armed commandos to steal your computer. Are you a moocher by saying "no" to their nonsense? Whatever. In any case, there are better ways of handling the situation other than pointing guns at the Feds. From his point of view, there is no better way. Any other way would have resulted in the Feds taking his cattle and his land. This way resulted in the Feds running away. I can only hope we see A LOT more Cliven Bundy's soon. |
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| Feds doesnt want another Waco Siege where dozens of dumb gun nuts get slaughtered while covered by the media. They'll wait untill the media loses attention, Brundy's posse fades away back into their daily lives and Wham! arrest him when he rolls into town. |
dankickyouApr 24, 2014 11:17 AM
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| I saw this on the news and didn't know why there was a standoff. leave it too guns nuts to point guns at the cops. really the guy was using the land illegally, he was the one who was wrong |
Cliven Bundy's racist comments force some Republican supporters to back off http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/24/1294312/-Cliven-Bundy-s-racist-comments-force-some-Republican-supporters-to-back-off And the exact quotes: “I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do. Continue reading the main story “And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.” Bundy needs a PR department. NYTimes said: His cause has won support from Senator Rand Paul, the libertarian Republican from Kentucky who is likely to run for president. LOL, not anymore... Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.), who said he supported Bundy in an interview with Fox News' Greta Van Susteren earlier this week, denounced Bundy's racist remarks Thursday, Business Insider reports. "His remarks on race are offensive and I wholeheartedly disagree with him," Paul said, according to a spokesman. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/24/cliven-bundy-racist_n_5204821.html So, after today - who still supports this Moocher? |
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| here's another link about that http://news.yahoo.com/list-cliven-bundys-supporters-now-know-hes-pro-133625625.html so much for the "Patriot" fox news was reporting on lol |
Squirrel500 said: here's another link about that http://news.yahoo.com/list-cliven-bundys-supporters-now-know-hes-pro-133625625.html so much for the "Patriot" fox news was reporting on lol They really love throwing themselves under the bus, don't they? Now, as they condemn each other, I get this message out of them: "It is OK to be racist, as long as you don't publicly say it". The first part stems from the idea of their support of Bundy - before - the old man let his fat mouth run loose. |
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KyuuAL said: Squirrel500 said: here's another link about that http://news.yahoo.com/list-cliven-bundys-supporters-now-know-hes-pro-133625625.html so much for the "Patriot" fox news was reporting on lol They really love throwing themselves under the bus, don't they? Now, as they condemn each other, I get this message out of them: "It is OK to be racist, as long as you don't publicly say it". The first part stems from the idea of their support of Bundy - before - the old man let his fat mouth run loose. that is so messed up and I kinda get that too about the racist things. African Americans were happier as slaves? who the hell thinks it's ok to think this way anymore? especially say it right in front of a camera that will most likely to shown nationally |
| I don't give a damn about slander thrown around in the media most of it is made up to make people look bad. The FED lost any credibility this case may have had by acting like a bunch of thugs, seriously who in their right mind supports sending armed force's that basically amounts too paramilitary over grazing rights. Mod Edit: Removed quote of deleted post and baiting. |
VudisMay 2, 2014 3:54 PM
Newhopes said: The FED lost any credibility this case may have had by acting like a bunch of thugs, seriously who in their right mind supports sending armed force's that basically amounts too paramilitary over grazing rights. You people have a few screws missing supporting bull like this. The thugs are the armed Bundy supporters. Here's a US History lesson for you. Look up the "Whiskey Rebellion". Bundy had to pay to use that Federal land. Those were the terms and part of the agreement; and yes, it was settled in COURT. Y'know what happens if you or me happen to go against a court decision? We go to prison or pay a penalty. |
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Squirrel500 said: KyuuAL said: Squirrel500 said: here's another link about that http://news.yahoo.com/list-cliven-bundys-supporters-now-know-hes-pro-133625625.html so much for the "Patriot" fox news was reporting on lol They really love throwing themselves under the bus, don't they? Now, as they condemn each other, I get this message out of them: "It is OK to be racist, as long as you don't publicly say it". The first part stems from the idea of their support of Bundy - before - the old man let his fat mouth run loose. that is so messed up and I kinda get that too about the racist things. African Americans were happier as slaves? who the hell thinks it's ok to think this way anymore? especially say it right in front of a camera that will most likely to shown nationally Oh, there are some others: http://www.dailystormer.com/blacks-loved-slavery-and-regretted-its-end-2/ |
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"I've lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements," Bundy said. Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy's parents bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt. http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25301551/bundys-ancestral-rights-come-under-scrutin Well... Cliven Bundy is also a liar -- in addition to being a freeloading moocher and a racist. |
KyuuALApr 24, 2014 4:40 PM
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KyuuAL said: Newhopes said: The FED lost any credibility this case may have had by acting like a bunch of thugs, seriously who in their right mind supports sending armed force's that basically amounts too paramilitary over grazing rights. You people have a few screws missing supporting bull like this. The thugs are the armed Bundy supporters. Here's a US History lesson for you. Look up the "Whiskey Rebellion". Bundy had to pay to use that Federal land. Those were the terms and part of the agreement; and yes, it was settled in COURT. Y'know what happens if you or me happen to go against a court decision? We go to prison or pay a penalty. I'll just leave this here showing your friends. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwytoxMuk4U |
| I really don't see how his being a racist (if he really did say those things) has anything to do with the Federal government being a bunch of jackasses. Is it okay now for the Feds to unleash paramilitary forces on racists? Like it or not, but the racist, as disgusting as they may be, have the same rights you have. That's what freedom of thought is all about. That being said, if he really did say those things then he is obviously an idiot on that topic, and most likely an idiot in general. Still doesn't excuse the Federal governments actions. This has never been about Bundy. It's always been about a much more general problem. |
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| he really did say those things they showed a video on the news of him saying those things and he even went on a radio station, didn't catch the name, saying similar things |
Squirrel500 said: he really did say those things they showed a video on the news of him saying those things and he even went on a radio station, didn't catch the name, saying similar things Even if he did it means jack and has nothing to do with how the BLM acted. |
REPUBLICANS BLAST NEVADA RANCHER FOR FAILING TO USE COMMONLY ACCEPTED RACIAL CODE WORDS WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report) — Republican politicians blasted the Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy on Thursday for making flagrantly racist remarks instead of employing the subtler racial code words the G.O.P. has been using for decades. “We Republicans have worked long and hard to develop insidious racial code words like ‘entitlement society’ and ‘personal responsibility,’ ” said Sen. Rand Paul (R-Kentucky). “There is no excuse for offensive racist comments like the ones Cliven Bundy made when there are so many subtler ways of making the exact same point.” Fox News also blasted the rancher, saying in a statement, “Cliven Bundy’s outrageous racist remarks undermine decades of progress in our effort to come up with cleverer ways of saying the same thing.” http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2014/04/republicans-blast-nevada-rancher-for-failing-to-use-commonly-accepted-racial-code-words.html And satire has its nice way of -- bringing out some truths. The kinds of things that he said -- they're representative of all the thoughts of the Tea Party types and Fox News viewers. Other examples include: Paul Ryan's "lazy inner city men" quote. Or "welfare recipients". As a note, I'm making a generalization too. Why? If they can make generalizations about black men, then I can make generalizations about them. Two can play this game. >:D |
KyuuALApr 24, 2014 8:14 PM
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| Playing the race card... how original. |
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StopDropAndBowl said: Playing the race card... how original. I didn't play it. Cliven Bundy did. If he kept his mouth shut and instead used Republican code words, then he would have gotten away with a lot of things and garnished a lot of Republican support. But alas, he was a moron and opened his big fat mouth. And if you didn't get the memo -- Racial Politics is very powerful. The Republicans, who formerly supported Bundy and are now shying away from him, know that fact and principle. Racial Politics houses a lot of rage; and collective rage is very strong. |
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KyuuAL said: StopDropAndBowl said: Playing the race card... how original. I didn't play it. Cliven Bundy did. And if you didn't get the memo -- Racial Politics is very powerful. The Republicans, who formerly supported Bundy and are now shying away from him, know that fact and principle. Racial Politics houses a lot of rage; and collective rage is very strong. Why do I get the feeling in most of your posts you're thinking or wanting to say WATCH OUT WHITEY YOU'RE NEXT! ? |
| He should have just said "youths" every time I hear it in the news I know non.withe did it. |
RedArmyShogun said: KyuuAL said: StopDropAndBowl said: Playing the race card... how original. I didn't play it. Cliven Bundy did. And if you didn't get the memo -- Racial Politics is very powerful. The Republicans, who formerly supported Bundy and are now shying away from him, know that fact and principle. Racial Politics houses a lot of rage; and collective rage is very strong. Why do I get the feeling in most of your posts you're thinking or wanting to say WATCH OUT WHITEY YOU'RE NEXT! ? Actually it's: And as an update: http://www.thewire.com/politics/2014/04/watch-cliven-bundy-explains-why-martin-luther-king-jr-would-be-on-his-side/361216/ Let's just say - Bundy is digging himself deeper to the point where he's referencing MLK. |
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KyuuAL said: I didn't play it. Cliven Bundy did. No, Cliven Bundy just made a point in a very, very stupid way. He also happened to be making a point that is not exactly valid, but isn't exactly wrong either. I highly doubt the man is a real racist, he's just an old bastard who can't speak his thoughts well and ended up making a really dumb and really offensive statement. The media and people like yourself blow it out of proportion because we've gotten to the point in this country where just being branded as a racist, regardless of the truth of the matter, carries terrible consequences. Bundy was trying (and generally failing) to make a legitimate point about the concept of freedom in a philosophical sense. He was asking whether slavery to dependance is better than outright slavery. Now, a more intelligent person would know the difference between the two, and would obviously come to the conclusion that in almost every way that matters, slavery to dependance is the preferable position, and further that one cannot tar an entire people with one brushstroke experience of driving past some alleged government housing project. The fact is that the black family of today suffers a lot of the same discrimination, violence, and dangers of the past. Even liberals agree with that. For a myriad of reasons, the advancement of colored people in America has been stunted to the point where, generally speaking, a black person is a slave to many conditions that are not of his or her own choosing. They are often born into broken homes, in terrible poverty, they are shuffled into uncaring and underfunded school systems, they are exposed to violence and gang criminality at every turn, they are mistreated by the authorities and court system, and they are forced into a cycle of dependency and self-destruction that becomes almost impossible to escape for them. Any sane person will admit that the black youth in the ghetto has a much harder time advancing his or herself than the white youth born in the suburbs. The same amount of hard work that will land a white kid in college and with a career job will often times land the black kid in jail and eventually prison. Whether this is directly the fault of dependency (welfare) programs or the lack thereof is a debatable topic. It's a hard topic to debate, not because there is a lack of information or evidence for either side, but because the liberal usually seeks to "win" the argument by pulling the race card and crying racism any time they are opposed on the issue. They know that the charge of racism can not only silence their opposition, but destroy the person who opposes them. Such is what you are doing now. You think that you can intimidate conservatives into following along with your agenda by smearing anyone who professes opposition to said agenda. That is the calling card of a bigot, and the preferred tactic of the tyrant. Cliven Bundy may very well have some racist tendencies. That does not make him a terrible person. That makes him an old bastard who is misinformed and suffering from a personal flaw that a lot of old bastards suffer from. His words in no way expressed an explicit hatred of black people, nor did they even imply a superiority of whites. His words were offensive insofar as he was too general, uncareful with his language, and misinformed as to the reality of the situation. You do not know Cliven Bundy personally. You do not know whether he is a racist or not. You do not know whether his words were ill-chosen or did, in fact, speak to some inner feelings that he needs to deal with. The problem here is that you and your ilk don't care. You don't care whether or not he is a racist, you don't care about letting him explain himself. You don't care at all. All you care about is that his argument (which has nothing to do with race) can be silenced by calling him a racist. That is far more disgusting than anything he is alleged to have said. What he said, he said in good faith, even if it was a very stupid thing to say. At the very least, he's an honest person. You are not. So pat yourself on the back. You got what you wanted. Another chance to be a bigot and silence your political opponents with vicious smears. And in some small way, you've gone against the very message that hundreds of black Civil Rights marchers were fighting for: a post-racial society. As long as you wield the struggles of the black American as a weapon against any and all opposition to your policies you will prevent us from coming closer to that dream that Reverend King once had, and died for. |
| Let's go bowling. |
| Just listerned to the unedited version of what bundy said, it wasn't racist at all. He's not a very good speaker, basically he just says he supports the minorities and that the government has enslaved them with it's policies, "hispanics have great family values" sound racist to you? So yup yet another case of government twisting things to make it seem they're the good guys. http://www.wnd.com/2014/04/black-leader-says-bundy-remarks-not-racist/ |
NewhopesApr 26, 2014 6:22 AM
| This is why I don't watch Major US media. Its all distortions and lies, minus the AP at anyrate. |
RedArmyShogun said: This is why I don't watch Major US media. Its all distortions and lies, minus the AP at anyrate. Probably why almost nobody watches news outlets like CNN anymore, nobody believes a word they say anymore. |
| CNN used to be a good global news source till the last 13 years or so. |
RedArmyShogun said: This is why I don't watch Major US media. Its all distortions and lies, minus the AP at anyrate. Sorry, but the AP has been caught lying and distorting as well lately. |
| @StopDropAndBowl all the way. The whole thing is effectively just a socially acceptable ad hominem attack, because of all the negativity towards racism. That being said, I'm not sure whether to support Bundy's situation or not. I do feel sympathetic, but upon reviewing the whole thing, I'm not sure whether that's just me being empathetic to him as a human, or whether that I do recognize that his cause as legitimate. |
| You've hit the nail on the head there, but it is even more insidious in this particular instance. When we look at the past couple of decades in America, we see a sharp rise in the number of paramilitary police forces, with over 10,000 SWAT teams across the country. We're talking about heavily-armed, heavily-trained forces with broad and undefined powers. This has led to a great deal of tragic abuses of power, with Waco and Ruby Ridge being the most famous. In Waco, we had the excuse that children were being abused. But due to the stupidity and militaristic nature of the federal agents, all those children ended up burning to death. A situation that possibly could have been defused without violence was turned into a slaughter because the government was not using proper restraint, and instead had non-military police forces dealing with American citizens as if they were Marines dealing with hostiles in a foreign country. In Ruby Ridge, the same idiocy led to a young mother being shot in the back of the head, and killed, by a federal sniper while she was fleeing and carrying her 10-month old baby. A 15 year old boy was also shot in the back while retreating, and killed by federal commandos. If you read the Rules of Engagement that the ATF used during their assault on Ruby Ridge, it was basically: "Shoot on sight." Even the military is not allowed to use the kind of tactics that the feds used on American citizens. Now, both of these tragedies were justified basically by saying: "The people who were killed were weird/radical/unsavory." Now we had heavily armed federal agents going far beyond the boundaries of their allotted power by the court-issued warrant, pointing guns at women and children and being a nuisance. Luckily, Bundy appeared to be a pretty cool old man, and he was supported by a group of helpful, also armed people, and the feds were forced to back down. However. Now Bundy is a weird, radical, unsavory racist. The feds, who have already shown a willingness to slaughter people who get in their way, now they have an excuse. Now they can threaten and push him around and heighten the pressure until he does or doesn't make a stupid decision and they can turn their deadly force on him, and then wash their hands by saying: "He was a racist." And people like the OP will, I fear, support them. |
| Let's go bowling. |
LAS VEGAS -- Concerns are growing about members of the militia surrounding rancher Cliven Bundy. Democratic Rep. Steven Horsford, sent a letter to Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie about the safety of residents in the Bunkerville area. Horsford says his constituents have "expressed concern" over the presence of armed militia groups from out of state. According to Horsford, his constituents say the militia have set up checkpoints where residents must prove they live in the area before they are allowed to pass and have set up a "persistent presence" along federal highways, and state and county roads. They also claim some have established an armed presence in the community. Horsford told the sheriff that the militia are making people feel unsafe. http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25371465/concerns-growing-about-militia-members-at-bundy-ranch See? This is why the use of force to the public is best left to the proper authorities. Otherwise, unauthorized personnel will act in a despotic and fascist fashion. Gun rights aside - they have no right to arm themselves and establish their own little country like that. Now, what would happen if people decide to go there - and protest against Cliven Bundy? Would they be threatened? |
KyuuALApr 30, 2014 1:38 PM
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| Here we go again, they've already been caught lying about him been a racist now they're tying to make it look like everybody involved despots.:roll eyes: Mod Edit: Removed baiting. |
VudisMay 2, 2014 3:59 PM
Newhopes said: Here we go again, they've already been caught lying about him been a racist now they're tying to make it look like everybody involved despots.:roll eyes: The article just linked describes THE LOCALS fearing for their lives around this whole situation. Based on what I read in THAT ARTICLE - they ARE acting like Militarized Despots. To think, they established checkpoints to determine people who are LEGAL Federal agents. Y'know what comes to my mind? The Walking Dead's "Governor arc". As for this whole Bundy is a racist thing -- he simply shot himself in the foot using his fat mouth. That's his fault. If you haven't learned anything from the David Sterling thing -- this country does not like Racists. When the Feds finally get around to enacting justice on Bundy, it'll be really interesting to see the defense here. And by the way, I'd hate to be the Sheriff in that area... Mod Edit: Removed quote of deleted post and insults. |
VudisMay 2, 2014 4:02 PM
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| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uEXkmMealE Really? This idiot wants a war? LOL. Y'know, Bundy's ranch would be perfect to perform artillery drills and such. |
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Nevada Ranch Militias Turn Against Each Other Over Drone-Attack Theory http://gawker.com/nevada-ranch-militias-turn-against-each-other-over-dron-1570140614 LOL In this Waco-wacko Woodstock of woolly-bully mountain men, the irony and the insanity spiked last weekend when leaders of the most prominent militia group, the Oath Keepers, began complaining of armed madmen "in the camp running amok." They eventually pulled back from their positions, claiming they had received intelligence suggesting that the Obama administration's attack drones were incoming. So, as they drive each other crazy -- who knows... their fracturing may end up eliminating themselves. This result would actually be far less work and politically insignificant. |
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KyuuAL said: http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25371465/concerns-growing-about-militia-members-at-bundy-ranch I'm calling BS until I see some real evidence. |
| Let's go bowling. |
StopDropAndBowl said: KyuuAL said: http://www.8newsnow.com/story/25371465/concerns-growing-about-militia-members-at-bundy-ranch I'm calling BS until I see some real evidence. What? That's a local news source. And, want evidence? Fly over there; and enter into "Bundy Territory". Obviously, I am in no power nor position to furnish that evidence for you. There's nothing on YouTube showing these checkpoints - yet. You'll just have to sit there - and trust - reputable news sources. :p |
KyuuALMay 1, 2014 2:05 PM
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KyuuAL said: What? That's a local news source. And, want evidence? Fly over there; and enter into "Bundy Territory". Obviously, I am in no power nor position to furnish that evidence for you. :p It's a local news source that uses the word of a Democrat Congressman as their evidence. It is entirely possible that the Congressman is... *gasp*... lying. Not saying it's not happening, just saying that until I see some actual EVIDENCE, I'm going to call BS. And NONE of this excuses the government's actions here... so...? |
| Let's go bowling. |
StopDropAndBowl said: KyuuAL said: What? That's a local news source. And, want evidence? Fly over there; and enter into "Bundy Territory". Obviously, I am in no power nor position to furnish that evidence for you. :p It's a local news source that uses the word of a Democrat Congressman as their evidence. It is entirely possible that the Congressman is... *gasp*... lying. Not saying it's not happening, just saying that until I see some actual EVIDENCE, I'm going to call BS. And NONE of this excuses the government's actions here... so...? Then you know what I suggest you do: Message said EVIL Communist-Socialist Democratic Congressman for messages from his constituents expressing concern about said Bundy national security checkpoint. I'm not here to babysit you. I have plenty of my own crap to do. So, go do your own work, if you demand certain things. I sit here and rely on news articles as they go; and that's as far as I am willing to go. If you want to go the extra mile, happy hunting, man. Otherwise, you sit back and wait for stuff to come out. Geez, you demanding right-wingers really need to get off your asses. |
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