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| Oh shit!! http://i.imgur.com/WjlpufM.png |
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| Unexpected. |
| Woahh. They use The Last Mission OST...Just epic |
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| Was kind of annoying how they moved backwards in the Netero vs King fight to show us the same scene for the third time but I was glad to see that the focus is now on the main confrontation. |
| Next episode should cover until the end of chapter 305 |
| Good God! That ending! That preview! I can't wait! |
DalPuri said: Good God! That ending! That preview! I can't wait! Haha your comments are cute man. Probably because of your avatar + you leaving a comment every time you finish an episode. xD |
| Holy crap, that fluid animation AND good art? A certain anime should take notes. #167 How can people think Gon is the typical dimwit MC with all this psychological shit going on? The back and forth between him, Pouf and Knuckle was on some Varys x Baelish level. Pouf admitting to be the clone, as if that were the case all along, to get them to take his word and that way he could lead them on to whatever thought he likes. Gon calls him out on his BS, catching a single lie, and wrecking that train of psychological goading of Pouf's. But Pouf, still keeping up, used the technicality of Gon asking him to prove it -not trusting his other claims, being a clone and such- to leave, trying to enrage him and to face up with Knuckle outside at the same time. Once again, resolve, determination, and the WILL are used in their genuine form, that's the raw and realistic form that makes it much more effective. The best part of this episode, though was the narrator, this moment was my favorite: Gon and Killua already knew where the King was headed before, but Pitou thought, with all the owning Gon had done recently, that he saw through Pouf and Pitou's exchange of codes earlier, which scares the shit out of him. This is in a way, like when Kakashi intimidated Zabuza, making him think he could read minds and see the future, albeit more realistically. Second, Kite asked himself once what would Gon think of the ants if they were not all scum who disregard their comrades, that this might actually be dangerous, forward to 30 episodes later, and we see that it was Knuckle, who displays what happens, and now, it goes all back to Gon, Knuckle refusing to tell him the truth of the ants, not to distract him and keep his conviction, in order to save his life. I think Knuckle is planning on doing the same with Pouf for now. No little detail escapes Togashi, he has woven every little event together in making this arc. The start to the fight was amazing, but it's sad how the amazing first part, which I enjoyed far more, is easily overlooked by many. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
jreginald said: DalPuri said: Good God! That ending! That preview! I can't wait! Haha your comments are cute man. Probably because of your avatar + you leaving a comment every time you finish an episode. xD Oh, you noticed? ;P Congratz, have a virtual cookie! |
RagingMan said: Anyone else thought that this was a horrible way to end the episode? http://puu.sh/8aetE.jpg I LOL'ed at that. Reminded me of Gareth Bale's annoying and overused HEART celebration: http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/bale.jpg All that 'mind games' thingy in the first half was annoying to me because it was only because of the injured girl that we got all this dithering. Otherwise, Pitou would have crushed Gon in 2 seconds and be done with it. |
Torrible said: All that 'mind games' thingy in the first half was annoying to me because it was only because of the injured girl that we got all this dithering. Otherwise, Pitou would have crushed Gon in 2 seconds and be done with it. I think that the ultimate reason for the ant's troubles can be narrowed down to Komugi is actually kind of brilliant.. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| I think what's really brilliant is how much the existence of that blind little girl affected the whole arc from the time she was introduced. Remove her from it, and everything would change drastically. |
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| I do find it interesting that a godlike being such as the King has this one Achilles Heel who will --that I keep reading about-- apparently lead to the Chimera Ants' downfall. Reminds me of one of those ancient Chinese stories of one woman bringing down an entire dynasty. |
tsudecimo said: I think what's really brilliant is how much the existence of that blind little girl affected the whole arc from the time she was introduced. Remove her from it, and everything would change drastically. That's actually what I was trying to say, too tired at the time to articulate I guess. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
Torrible said: RagingMan said: Anyone else thought that this was a horrible way to end the episode? http://puu.sh/8aetE.jpg I LOL'ed at that. Reminded me of Gareth Bale's annoying and overused HEART celebration: http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/bale.jpg All that 'mind games' thingy in the first half was annoying to me because it was only because of the injured girl that we got all this dithering. Otherwise, Pitou would have crushed Gon in 2 seconds and be done with it. It was an excellent way to end the episode. Brilliant use of foreshadowing. This dithering creates tension and makes Gon vs. Pitou one of the most (if not the most) anticipated fights in the series! For the first time, Pitou is afraid of what her opponent might do, despite Gon being considerably weaker. Viewers get a good look at the darkness and intensity of Gon's emotions (and also get to see Killua feeling helpless). Komugi (and her injury) builds up so much emotional turmoil during this arc... it's not even funny how different this would be if she weren't there. tsudecimo said: I think what's really brilliant is how much the existence of that blind little girl affected the whole arc from the time she was introduced. Remove her from it, and everything would change drastically. Torrible said: I do find it interesting that a godlike being such as the King has this one Achilles Heel who will --that I keep reading about-- apparently lead to the Chimera Ants' downfall. Reminds me of one of those ancient Chinese stories of one woman bringing down an entire dynasty. |
tsudecimo said: I think what's really brilliant is how much the existence of that blind little girl affected the whole arc from the time she was introduced. Remove her from it, and everything would change drastically. Torrible said: I do find it interesting that a godlike being such as the King has this one Achilles Heel who will --that I keep reading about-- apparently lead to the Chimera Ants' downfall. Reminds me of one of those ancient Chinese stories of one woman bringing down an entire dynasty. I dig that too. I specially liked it when Killua correctly deduced that there was a third party in the palace right before the invasion and that this could change everything. Komugi's presence from the very get go caused a Butterfly effect in the development of the whole mission. This not only develops the human-ant conflict in the King, but also expands on the whole 'professionalism' the palace invasion requires. The invasion squad came ready for anything and they still met a situation totally unexpected and had to pull off the mission based only on assumptions of what was going on. Really, the palace invasion is just awesome. |
Raticate said: tsudecimo said: I think what's really brilliant is how much the existence of that blind little girl affected the whole arc from the time she was introduced. Remove her from it, and everything would change drastically. Torrible said: I do find it interesting that a godlike being such as the King has this one Achilles Heel who will --that I keep reading about-- apparently lead to the Chimera Ants' downfall. Reminds me of one of those ancient Chinese stories of one woman bringing down an entire dynasty. I dig that too. I specially liked it when Killua correctly deduced that there was a third party in the palace right before the invasion and that this could change everything. Komugi's presence from the very get go caused a Butterfly effect in the development of the whole mission. This not only develops the human-ant conflict in the King, but also expands on the whole 'professionalism' the palace invasion requires. The invasion squad came ready for anything and they still met a situation totally unexpected and had to pull off the mission based only on assumptions of what was going on. Really, the palace invasion is just awesome. Agreed with everyone that was quoted. It was VERY brilliant. If they hadn't introduced Komugi then this entire arc would be totally different. We wouldn't have Meruem's amazing development. Actually, we wouldn't have Pouf's either -- I mean the guy turned from this nonchalant servant to someone that you can liken to an obsessive girlfriend. Of course, like the king, this was always the Royal Guard. But we wouldn't have been able to see that side of Pouf if it wasn't for Komugi. Togashi did such a great job in introducing Komugi, huge part of why I love this arc so much. |
| Pouf? Character development? Huh? That wasn't really character development. The only royal guard who had character development was Youpi. |
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| I'm interested in how you think Pouf hasn't received development, tsud. Before he noticed Komugi's effect on the King he was a rather composed guy, probably the most level headed of the group. Since then he's become more and more jealous to the point of becoming fanatical. I may have to concede on Pitou, though. But, I also don't think development is a make or break type of deal, hence why she is still my favorite Royal Guard. And I'm not saying you think this as you obviously never implied it, I just want to put it out there. Then again, I can't help but think Pitou changed when those tears fell from her eyes. Even if only a little bit. |
Ston3_FreeN7May 18, 2014 3:44 PM
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| Well before anybody goes there. I'm not calling any character bad because they didn't have character development. Nor is character development always needed for any character. Pouf much like Pitou had his character fleshed out. The jealousy and all his reactions since Komugi was introduced were all part of him, he is level of loyalty is above the other two guards. Komugi was just a catalyst that brought forth this side of his personality, it was already there from the beginning. He cared deeply about the King more than anyone, so the jealousy is just a natural result from that deep affection. As for Pitou. That was her character all along, it didn't change, it was simply fleshed out, and was given more dimension to it. The loyalty existed in her genes, from the get go. Her character from the beginning is a loyal guard. She cried because, The King entrusted her with something important to him, she felt honored. All what she did regarding Komugi, is simply following the King's order and her body expressed the rest. It has no effects on her personality or morals. If the King were to tell her to kill Komugi, she would do it, in an instant, without hesitation. She doesn't really have any type of sympathy for Komugi, Gon, Kite, etc. Youpi was quite obvious. Since he changed significantly from his introduction, emotionally and morally. Due to events not relevant to his loyalty for the king. And showed sides of his personality not from a result of something he was born with. Pitou still my favorite like you, but that's probably because I'm indifferent for the other two. |
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| I pretty much agree with your points regarding Pitou, her emotional reaction when her King needed her for something is almost certainly because of her biological programming and she would have no doubt cut down anything the King told her to. Still, it's an absolutely beautiful moment imo. Really changed how I thought of Pitou (116 pretty much sealed the deal). As far as Pouf, I think jealousy developed within him. He wasn't jealous when the King praised Pitou in episode 91, for example. He only seemed to go that way when Komugi, a lowly human, came along. And, simple jealousy is one thing but it has long turned into murderous intent. I don't know, though. In an arc where these "monsters" are gaining more and more human traits whether it be "love for a life", "jealousy", etc. one could argue the ants have been developing from day one ever since that turtle asked for names. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| That's a fair point I guess. Yeah one could argue that, it would be more of change and development within a thematic purpose though, not necessarily change in characterization of already established characters like Youpi's. But I still think other than the King, Youpi had the most character development or obvious change in characterization. |
tsudecimoMay 18, 2014 5:04 PM
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insan3Spectre said: As far as Pouf, I think jealousy developed within him. He wasn't jealous when the King praised Pitou in episode 91, for example. He only seemed to go that way when Komugi, a lowly human, came along. And, simple jealousy is one thing but it has long turned into murderous intent. I'm with the 'I don't think Pouf developed as a character in the arc' side. Pouf's drive for killing Komugi is not jealousy. Pouf wants to kill Komugi so the King focuses in becoming the leader for the Chimera Ant evolution. Pouf fears the King's relationship with Komugi will make him reconsider his attitude towards humans and the evolution of the Chimera Ants, as pointed out when the King summoned his guards to ask for his name. This fear is in line with Pouf's devotion to the King as the leader of Chimera Ants, established from day one. The only thing that changed in Pouf's mind was his evaluation of how much of a threat Komugi was. I would however, call this simply learning, as opposed to a change of values or point of view. |
Raticate said: Well said. Worded it better than I could. Although I do think that Pouf is jealous of Komugi, because the King cares for her more. I think there is affection from Pouf that doesn't just stem from loyalty and devotion. Nvm, you are right. It's mostly how you described it. |
tsudecimoMay 18, 2014 5:15 PM
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| I think it's both, really. I think he's jealous and wants whats best for the Ants as a whole. Again, I think at least part of the reason for his wanting to kill Komugi is because he believes his King shouldn't lower himself to a human's level. Especially when the King seems to care more for the girl than his loyal royal guards. Heh, I wonder how he would have reacted in 112 if he was in Pitou's position. However, I happen to be right at the episodes where Pouf becomes wary of Komugi. So maybe I'll think differently when I don't have to discuss something I saw months ago. |
Ston3_FreeN7May 18, 2014 5:23 PM
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
tsudecimo said: Pouf? Character development? Huh? That wasn't really character development. The only royal guard who had character development was Youpi. Oh okay, you worded it better. "Fleshed out" is the term. And like I said, "just like the king, this too was the royal guard". But I also agree with insane. So I guess there was development. I can see how it's more than just loyalty & division but actual jealousy. |
Ojiji Senshi Sailor Netekokoro for the fucking win |
| Proud founder of The Official Anti-Ging Freecss Fan Club Join now! Kellhus said: GuusWayne said: there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat. |
| Some amazing animation. Fantastic episode all around |
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MrAM said: I agree concerning Netero. Before now I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but if he can overlook all of the loss of life and destruction that was needed to bring about this battle, then my opinion of him has dropped significantly. I'm a tad saddened that he has turned out to be selfish, as he seemed to be one of the only morally good characters. Had saving humanity or some form of righteous anger been his primary motivation, I wouldn't have cared so much if he also happened to enjoy the battle also. While I do agree that the arc seems to be placing a big pointer on the problem of selfishness, I don't think it's been limited to humans alone. As we've seen, many Ant leaders struck out on their own to become kings themselves, with some of them even plotting against Meruem for their own benefit. Virtually all of the squad leaders are very self-centered, with few exceptions. (Colt comes to mind.) The Royal Guards aren't immune either, with Pouf being the case-in-point. He isn't loyal to the King, but rather to his own idea of what the King should be. He's a very controlling/manipulative "person", willing even to speak against Meruem (and, by implication, kill the other Royal Guards) to meet his own goals. He appears intensely loyal on the surface, but he really just wants Meruem to do what he (Pouf) wants him to do. It's a very dark and deceptive sort of selfishness. I don't think Gon is the more evil one between himself and Pitou for two reasons: First, Pitou was bloodthirsty and depraved long before the King was born. This was first shown with her merciless mindrape and subsequent dumping of Pokkle. However, this was taken even further with her killing of Kite, which she did purely for sport and seemed to enjoy immensely. She even made a plaything of Kite's body afterwards, which is quite twisted. Her turning of Palm is another part of her depraved mindset. There is no justification of any of this from a human standpoint, and blaming it on the "Ant side" doesn't make her innocent either. Do we spare a dog that even bites a human, let alone kills one? While she's not as selfish as Pouf, she is still very evil. Second, Gon's pursuit for her life, in and of itself, is not wrong. Pitou represents a tremendous danger to humanity in addition to her previous murder and twisted "fun". There is no repentance on her part. The only reason she seems "good" is because she's doing all of this for the King (who is also morally nebulous, but I'll get to that later). That does not excuse her other deeds, nor is doing evil for someone else right (saving Kogumi might not be wrong, but what about when the King, say, asks her to kill people?). Given that Hunters are the highest peace-keeping force in the HxH-verse, it is proper that a Hunter kill her for her deeds. Gon is not wrong for fulfilling that duty. Gon's problem is that he's let himself become consumed with hatred. Hatred is not satisfied until it has it's way (see the root in selfishness?), and therefore harms everything in its path. This is exemplified by Gon's abusive words toward Killua, and further shows that, at this point, he doesn't truly (platonicly) love Killua. Words well up from the heart. Given how dark Gon's heart is being shown right now, it's a good illustration of how evil tries to birth more evil. However, given that Gon is still a child, he's basically innocent and has a far better chance of having a change of heart than Pitou does. Moving on from that, even the "purest" of the Royal Guards, Youpi, is still evil for a couple reasons. True, he doesn't kill for the sake of killing (like Pitou) or attempt to manipulate the King and other Guards (like Pouf), but he still has no problem killing masses of people who haven't wronged him in any way. This mostly comes back to a willingness to follow an evil ruler (again, which I'll address in a moment), which is inexcusable no matter whether it stems from the animal side of human side (see dog rhetoric above). At that, he carries an intense rage that furthers violence. Finally, we have Meruem. Meruem carries an intense sense of pride and entitlement, but this is only the beginning of his woes. He has no problem murdering countless people for an impossible ideal. No matter how morally righteous one may be, you cannot force that upon others. Seeing that nobody is truly perfect, his explanation of his ideal doesn't work: He mentions that greedy do-nothings live on one side and poor starving children on the other, yet doesn't take into account that those starving children may be even more morally corrupt than the do-nothings. Does that make their starvation acceptable? No. Does that mean they are any more worthy of living than the do-nothings? Not necessarily. It is the heart and actions that makes one good or evil, not one's position in life. Be it a beggar or a king, either can be evil. For his ideal to work, human nature itself would have to disappear. This is where the changing of humans to Ants comes in: By using their only method of removing everyone's humanity, not only does all of this inequality disappear, but any kind of meaningful relationship does too. What happens to love, kindness, and happiness? It all disappears. That's why he decided that some humans shouldn't be killed, but this is where his logic fails, because by leaving humans behind, he still hasn't removed human nature. His ideal is impossible. What that means is this: It all boils down to his true goal, controlling the world (read: selfishness). He wishes to impose his own (selfish) will on others. In the end, he's basically trying to become God. Does that not seem truly twisted? You could say he's misguided, that he doesn't realize his own selfishness, and that he could change. I agree with that sentiment. However, as it stands, he is still an evil character through and through. The only character who seems truly pure to me at this point is Killua. He was raised in an abusive environment both physically and mentally. He was manipulated into killing people. He is a child, and therefore a victim. When was he taught to do the right thing? And yet, his heart cries out. He doesn't want to kill people. He wants to love people. He wants to be "normal". That is what Gon represents to Killua, and that's why he cherishes their relationship so. It's really amazing to see how selflessly he protects and (platonicly) loves Gon. It's also why Gon's evil (read: hatred) has hurt him so, yet despite that he still loves him. It's really a beautiful picture. Unless something happens to subvert the portrayal so far, I get the feeling the writer of this has a good understanding of human nature. It's rare to encounter this sort of thing in any work, let alone a battle shounen. (Thanks to MrAM for the thought-provoking post!) |
TripleSRankJul 3, 2014 10:10 PM
| ^ His ideal is impossible, that's exactly why Netero kept on trying to get him to fight. He was making sure that Meruem wouldn't persuade him. But the fact that Meruem is trying to talk things out regarding the state of humanity, and equality for that matter... how the hell does that still make him evil? Yes, he has shown evil acts from the moment he was born but Meruem's change started when he met Komugi. Meruem is a king. As a king, it's his job to lead. And yes, he's misguided as hell but he's making decisions that he sees fit. As the leader of the Chimera Ants, it's his job to not only ensure the survival of the ants but to make sure that they stay at the top of the food chain. It's not really "trying to become God", it's more of ensuring that his species thrives. |
jreginald said: ^ His ideal is impossible, that's exactly why Netero kept on trying to get him to fight. He was making sure that Meruem wouldn't persuade him. But the fact that Meruem is trying to talk things out regarding the state of humanity, and equality for that matter... how the **** does that still make him evil? Yes, he has shown evil acts from the moment he was born but Meruem's change started when he met Komugi. Meruem is a king. As a king, it's his job to lead. And yes, he's misguided as **** but he's making decisions that he sees fit. As the leader of the Chimera Ants, it's his job to not only ensure the survival of the ants but to make sure that they stay at the top of the food chain. It's not really "trying to become God", it's more of ensuring that his species thrives. If he were truly concerned about humanity, he wouldn't be trying to destroy it and "stay on the top of the food chain" as you say. If we're regarding him as an animal, he's a vicious bear that needs to be put down. If we regard him as a human, he's a power-hungry, selfish individual who's willing to kill countless people to satisfy his own desires. That's evil. |
| I think it's important to note that Pitou, Meruem, and the other Chimera Ants are effectively children that are learning and growing as they go along. You say that them being ants/animals isn't a good excuse for their default actions/personas, but it kind of is. Because they can only initially act as their instincts tell them to, which is precisely what Pitou did with Kite when she attacked and revived him. Now, granted, Gon never showed a blatant dis-regard for life but, what animal is Pitou based on? A cat and, what is her actions very similar to in regards to "toying with her prey"? That's right, a cat. If you haven't, just watch a pet cat with it's prey. How Pitou handled Kite is kind of an amplified version of that. Of course, it's just a little bit scarier when it's a human involved. I also can't get behind calling Meruem evil. A truly evil character is someone with no redeemable qualities what so ever, in my eyes. The fact that you say you could see him change and realize "the error of his ways" disqualifies him as evil imo. I think it all comes down to him basically being a new-born, which means he still has some simplistic viewpoints in regards to his ideals. I think that, within time, he may see why his way wouldn't work. Or, maybe not, and his ant side will win out in the end. Edit: I always feel like I'm simplifying this arc and it's characters too much when I talk about it. I think the fact that people are able to interpret it in so many different ways really speaks for how much depth there is to this arc. It's pretty crazy, really. |
Ston3_FreeN7Jul 4, 2014 7:04 AM
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
TripleSRank said: jreginald said: ^ His ideal is impossible, that's exactly why Netero kept on trying to get him to fight. He was making sure that Meruem wouldn't persuade him. But the fact that Meruem is trying to talk things out regarding the state of humanity, and equality for that matter... how the **** does that still make him evil? Yes, he has shown evil acts from the moment he was born but Meruem's change started when he met Komugi. Meruem is a king. As a king, it's his job to lead. And yes, he's misguided as **** but he's making decisions that he sees fit. As the leader of the Chimera Ants, it's his job to not only ensure the survival of the ants but to make sure that they stay at the top of the food chain. It's not really "trying to become God", it's more of ensuring that his species thrives. If he were truly concerned about humanity, he wouldn't be trying to destroy it and "stay on the top of the food chain" as you say. If we're regarding him as an animal, he's a vicious bear that needs to be put down. If we regard him as a human, he's a power-hungry, selfish individual who's willing to kill countless people to satisfy his own desires. That's evil. He's not killing countless people for his own personal desires, though. I honestly don't get where you're seeing Meruem trying to satisfy his own desires. He's only doing this for his race. His methods may be evil, with him willing to kill people to achieve his ideals but his ideals aren't evil. Like what Insane just said, evil is for someone that is truly detestable, someone who doesn't have any redeeming qualities. But my one true gripe with your viewpoint here is that you make it seem like Meruem hasn't changed. Yes, there is still evil to him but change started to happen in Meruem the moment he met Komugi. And lol @ Killua being "pure". This is the same kid that killed 2 randoms on a blimp just because he was annoyed. He has no problem killing people, even for the littlest reason of them pissing him off. You talk about him being born in a bad environment, not being taught to do the right thing. This is the same case for Meruem (minus bad environment) -- it was in his natural instinct, he didn't know right from wrong, he saw humans as food, which is expected of an animal. You not considering him an animal doesn't change the fact that he is. A king of said animal race, at that. |
jreginaldJul 4, 2014 9:03 AM
jreginald said: And lol @ Killua being "pure". This is the same kid that killed 2 randoms on a blimp just because he was annoyed. He has no problem killing people, even for the littlest reason of them pissing him off. You talk about him being born in a bad environment, not being taught to do the right thing. SSS said that Killua seems truly pure at this point. in fact, Killua was more carefree about killing someone during the beginning of the series, but his friendship with Gon slowly began to change his personality. Similar with King and Komugi. I agree, Killua was the most balanced this arc, even counting Gon's ''evil part'' as pure emotional disarray. Gon has always been Killua's light, but changed in the Chimera Ants arc. Now Killua is Gon's light. |
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Sky345 said: jreginald said: And lol @ Killua being "pure". This is the same kid that killed 2 randoms on a blimp just because he was annoyed. He has no problem killing people, even for the littlest reason of them pissing him off. You talk about him being born in a bad environment, not being taught to do the right thing. SSS said that Killua seems truly pure at this point. in fact, Killua was more carefree about killing someone during the beginning of the series, but his friendship with Gon slowly began to change his personality. Similar with King and Komugi. I agree, Killua was the most balanced this arc, even counting Gon's ''evil part'' as pure emotional disarray. Gon has always been Killua's light, but changed in the Chimera Ants arc. Now Killua is Gon's light. Oh yeah, I will agree that Killua has become a lot more "pure" and he is definitely a lot more different than he was at the beginning. I was just saying that the way he saw Killua as a victim can be said about Meruem. Now, of course, Meruem is a lot worse. Anyway, it was just a bad job of making my argument coherent on my part. |
insan3Spectre said: I think it's important to note that Pitou, Meruem, and the other Chimera Ants are effectively children that are learning and growing as they go along. You say that them being ants/animals isn't a good excuse for their default actions/personas, but it kind of is. Because they can only initially act as their instincts tell them to, which is precisely what Pitou did with Kite when she attacked and revived him. Now, granted, Gon never showed a blatant dis-regard for life but, what animal is Pitou based on? A cat and, what is her actions very similar to in regards to "toying with her prey"? That's right, a cat. If you haven't, just watch a pet cat with it's prey. How Pitou handled Kite is kind of an amplified version of that. Of course, it's just a little bit scarier when it's a human involved. What I'm trying to get at is this: We would kill an animal that has killed a human, irrespective of its natural instinct. If a dog bites someone, we kill it. If a bear attacks someone, we kill it. If a lion attacks a village, the village hunts the lion. I regard animal life as fundamentally different from human life. That might be why my view with the Ants seems so straight-forward. I don't view them as both animal and human, I view them as one or the other. That's why I say, if they're an animal, then there's no argument to start with. They might not be evil, but they need to be killed, just like any other animal that's attacked a human. In the anime, "human" is best displayed by the memory, emotions, and individuality. Another very important human attribute is morals (I'll get to Meruem in a moment). Given this, there's a strong argument to consider any Ant that displays these are human. The Ants that display these are perfectly capable of curbing their "natural instincts", impulses, w/e, just like a human. The fact that Colt, Ikalgo, Meleoron, and even Welfin have decided against their "race" in general illustrates this. With the exception of Colt, you could hardly argue that they've had any more experience than their peers. insan3Spectre said: I also can't get behind calling Meruem evil. A truly evil character is someone with no redeemable qualities what so ever, in my eyes. The fact that you say you could see him change and realize "the error of his ways" disqualifies him as evil imo. I think it all comes down to him basically being a new-born, which means he still has some simplistic viewpoints in regards to his ideals. I think that, within time, he may see why his way wouldn't work. Or, maybe not, and his ant side will win out in the end. jreginald said: He's not killing countless people for his own personal desires, though. I honestly don't get where you're seeing Meruem trying to satisfy his own desires. He's only doing this for his race. His methods may be evil, with him willing to kill people to achieve his ideals but his ideals aren't evil. Like what Insane just said, evil is for someone that is truly detestable, someone who doesn't have any redeeming qualities. But my one true gripe with your viewpoint here is that you make it seem like Meruem hasn't changed. Yes, there is still evil to him but change started to happen in Meruem the moment he met Komugi. @Both: Alright, first of all, an evil person is someone who does evil things. We call someone who steals things a thief. We call someone who lies a liar. We call someone who starts fights a brawler. The list goes on. It makes sense to call someone who does evil things an evil person, in this sense. They aren't disqualified from the descriptor by ignorance. A serial killer might not think murder is wrong. That doesn't make them any less a murderer. However, the key aspect I was pointing out is the ability and willingness to change. People can change. Also, you're going to have a hard time finding someone without "any" redeeming qualities. That's part of being human. Basically everyone has some excuse, some sad backstory, or something to attempt to shift the blame on. I don't buy that. You're responsible for your own actions even as a child, but particularly in adulthood. By the argument you guys are giving me, nobody could be called evil, which I find utterly absurd. Rather, I think this arc helps show how much evil their really is in the world. @jregin: As for "doing it for his race", so what? Do you know how many people have died in wars irl over such a superiority complex? At that, "the end justifies the means" is a very scary argument, as if it were valid it would justify most of the crap that goes on in the world. Do you excuse the millions starving in Africa? The countless losses in wars? The killing of an innocent because they're "in the way"? If you do, we'll just have to agree to disagree, because that's just reprehensible. @Both: The reason I believe Meruem to have a chance is because he doesn't seem "set in his ways" yet. I agree that he has changed. In fact, that's what has interested me in his character. However, I'm saying that he hasn't changed enough. He still wants to kill and eat people. He still plans to rule the world. He still plans to use violence to force his will on others. That is what is evil about him. My whole point about him still being evil fixes upon this point. Tell me, if you had a spouse and five children, and someone comes in your house to kill them, do you stop that person, or do you sit down with them to discuss which child is your favorite so that they would be spared? That's why I say that the offer to talk is useless. The pretense for talking is that Meruem will be doing many evil things, and he's offering to spare you some of the things. jreginald said: And lol @ Killua being "pure". This is the same kid that killed 2 randoms on a blimp just because he was annoyed. He has no problem killing people, even for the littlest reason of them pissing him off. You talk about him being born in a bad environment, not being taught to do the right thing. This is the same case for Meruem (minus bad environment) -- it was in his natural instinct, he didn't know right from wrong, he saw humans as food, which is expected of an animal. You not considering him an animal doesn't change the fact that he is. A king of said animal race, at that. The bad environment is key not only because it tarnished his innocence, but also because it literally trained him to be evil. While all humans are born with a tendency to do wrong (selfishness being a big thing to note, as many other problems stem out from it), there is an innocence with children. Killua is a victim, and after seeing how screwed over his life really was (you know, after he got to know Gon well), he wanted to change. We never see him kill for the sake of killing after the Hunter Exam. He didn't "half-way" change either. It's not like he starts killing people whenever Gon isn't around. Meruem, on the other hand, never was a child. He was born without the innocence that comes with childhood, despite lacking life experience. That's a big difference. If he had been born with innocence, he wouldn't have been around killing his own people and human people. He would have started off malleable, which he decidedly wasn't. At that, when was Meruem abused, mentally or physically? When was he taught to murder people? He was that way from the start, unlike Killua was when he was a small child (before the Zoldycks started abusing him). insan3Spectre said: Edit: I always feel like I'm simplifying this arc and it's characters too much when I talk about it. I think the fact that people are able to interpret it in so many different ways really speaks for how much depth there is to this arc. It's pretty crazy, really. Indeed. A story that's able to draw out discussion like this is on a different level from those that can't, in my opinion. It gives it all a feeling of depth. |
TripleSRank said: @jregin: As for "doing it for his race", so what? Do you know how many people have died in wars irl over such a superiority complex? At that, "the end justifies the means" is a very scary argument, as if it were valid it would justify most of the crap that goes on in the world. Do you excuse the millions starving in Africa? The countless losses in wars? The killing of an innocent because they're "in the way"? If you do, we'll just have to agree to disagree, because that's just reprehensible. Nah, I don't excuse those notions. But still doesn't change the fact that Meruem's ideals aren't evil. TripleSRank said: @Both: The reason I believe Meruem to have a chance is because he doesn't seem "set in his ways" yet. I agree that he has changed. In fact, that's what has interested me in his character. However, I'm saying that he hasn't changed enough. He still wants to kill and eat people. He still plans to rule the world. He still plans to use violence to force his will on others. That is what is evil about him. My whole point about him still being evil fixes upon this point. Fair enough. I guess my view on Meruem is heavily skewed because I know of how he is in the end. |
| @ TripleSRank I'll admit something sounds "off" to me when it comes to the notion of categorizing the Chimera Ants as just ants/animals. Maybe at first, but at this point they come off to me as higher life forms that can do everything we can only faster and more efficiently. I think one of the reasons that Meruem's demeanor and proposal doesn't come across as completely arrogant to me is because he quite literally is better than us humans in pretty much every way. I think his time with the various board games (except Gungi, of course) and the fight so far with Netero where he has barely taken any damage, go a long way to show this. So, it doesn't come across as all that hypocritical when he stated his plan in 122, because he's just on a different level. Now, of course, as a human I would feel very very threatened. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand our point of view as well. Playing second fiddle to another species, having to fear if you and your loved ones would be considered "worthy" or not, etc. That would be pretty horrible, but I think the series has done more than enough to show Meruem's perspective of things as well and, I hate to say it, but a lot of his comments about poverty and the like make a great deal of sense to me. It's just, again, I find it to be a slippery slope. If you are saying no one, despite being the most powerful being or not, should be able to decide who lives or dies.....I actually agree. I just don't, and probably never will, consider him evil. Well, about being "evil". I'm one of those types who think that truly "evil" individuals are very rare. They are the types who show no remorse or regret or anything when they kill, rape, murder, whatever. Meruem showed this when he was talking about the little girl in episode 108 and, though I had my doubts at first as to whether those were his true feelings or not with his lines about "crushing those before they reach their potential", that flew out the window the minute he saved Komugi. I don't know, call it the advantage of fiction being able to show us into his mind and way of thinking or whatever. That's just the way I see it. Honestly, that's all it is. I just don't agree with the use of the word "evil". To me, that simplifies his character too much. I would say he's more of a "gray" type of character, myself. But, eh, like jreginald said, it's most likely that my view point of the character is skewed at this point. |
Ston3_FreeN7Jul 4, 2014 4:27 PM
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| ^ very well put, Insane. That's exactly why I don't consider Meruem evil, I like the term you used for him - gray. |
| Being "better" isn't an excuse to do whatever the heck you want. I actually got the same impression you (insan3Spectre) did at first. He is superior in strength and intelligence. Trying to excuse the perpetrators of a genocide with a willingness to spare some seems screwy to me, though. His "leveling of the playing field", or plan to make everyone "equal" involved killing everyone that couldn't be turned into an Ant and making the rest Ants- Ants that just so happen to be totally loyal to him. He's trying to wipe out humanity! Spoilering, because it happens in a later episode: Like I said before, I don't know if he would change more. Whether he was pure in his intentions, I don't know. However, the means he was willing to use to reach his ideal is a big problem, as far as I'm concerned. It still feels like he was trying to place himself in a god-like position. What's the point of "peace" if you can't experience it? Peace and harmony can be regarded as emotions, not just the lack of conflict. If you're dead inside, peace and conflict mean nothing. Trying to remove "the inside" is why his proposal is so scary. |
| I think it's getting really boring. Just let gon's rage explode already. |
| i was surprised that we are moving to the king fight, even though so far he isnt even trying, i thought wed have to wait for Youpi an the butterflyman to get defeated first Sapewloth said: Ojiji Senshi Sailor Netekokoro for the fucking win so moe, actually i liked this part, i had a good laugh with it |
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| Nice to see Netero reminiscing over his teenage years. |
| I rarely revisit threads, so if you're after a reply you should PM me or post a comment on my profile. |
| Buddha and his power of love, what a funny guy. |
| Holy shit get rekt Meruem! |
RagingMan said: No way. It was glorious...Anyone else thought that this was a horrible way to end the episode? http://puu.sh/8aetE.jpg |
VanishingKira said: The old man looks very happy. Lol Doki Doki FTW xD |
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