Ookami to Koushinryou II Episode 9 Discussion

Sep 5, 2009 12:39 PM

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Aug 2008

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This thread is more amusing than the episode (especially where the people started calling Horo a slut; then other people come in and defend Horo; then once again, the same people who called her a slut started to claim it was a typo).

Honestly, this season moves so slowly; it lost a lot of the charm it had in the first season.

Thanks, person who gave me this on another site a long time ago, lol.

Sep 5, 2009 1:38 PM

#102

adamantine

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Jul 2008

2801

typographical error: a mistake made in the typing process; the term includes errors due to mechanical failure or slips of the hand or finger, but excludes errors of ignorance.

I think the actual word you were looking for is sarcasm.

Anyway, this episode was pretty nice overall but I felt like the ending came out of nowhere. I think I like when this show was a little more episodic and less arc-based.

ジリティック♡BEGINNER

Sep 6, 2009 8:53 AM

#103

EternalDreamer

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Jul 2009

807

Oh the tension! Quite the cliff hanger really.

I wonder what she knows and have planned for Horo. Though his answer should be obvious, I'm going to get so angry at him if he even consider selling her.

And if she is in fact black mailing him and knows Horos secret, just kill the bitch and have it done with.
Vincent really is too nice and gullible at times.

Sep 6, 2009 10:51 AM

#104

canephalanx

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May 2008

1861

Cliffhanger! BAH!

Sep 6, 2009 8:36 PM

#105

dragonshade

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Mar 2008

333

I guess hes gonna pretend to sell her, and trick that blonde woman's money lol

Sep 7, 2009 12:47 AM

#106

Mikiyo

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Jan 2009

806

Lol @ Retards saying he will sell her.

My Anime List. | 皆は見つけられる必要がある。 | Relentless.

Sep 7, 2009 3:44 AM

#107

flame_tiong

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Feb 2009

670

"it is just impossible for lawrence to turn away from a possibly profitable business"
we all know this, this is how every (almost) arc started lol

p.s. like the scene where horo step on lawrence foot lol

flame_tiongSep 7, 2009 3:51 AM

oblivious is a bliss

Sep 7, 2009 6:53 AM

#108

BashZeStampeedo

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Aug 2009

194

Mikiyo said:
Lol @ Retards saying he will sell her.

Assuming that's what their conversation was about, I get the impression that Lawrence might not have much choice. Abe/Eva sure seems like someone who could extort a soft guy like Lawrence, plus it seems like the innkeeper and Rigolo are possibly involved. Given how shady the town is, if Lawrence genuinely fears for their lives, anything's possible.

Up until now, he thinks too much to blurt out the first thing in his heart. He also cares far too deeply about Horo to make a snap judgment regarding her. He's already decided on several occasions that she's the most important thing in his life, so if anything this is going to be a real test of his priorities and just how far he's changed for Horo's sake.

flame_tiong said:
p.s. like the scene where horo step on lawrence foot lol

What *was* that all about? Was Lawrence ogling the nun too much for her tastes? If so, she's really overreacting :D

BashZeStampeedoSep 7, 2009 6:56 AM

Sep 7, 2009 8:59 AM

#109

Fabrice

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May 2008

1460

Also, just saying this generally for everyone: she brought up the subject of past lovers to get him jealous, because he has been making her jealous lately. Horo's all about staying even. Remember the time when Lawrence got upset about the wolves-eating-humans story, so she embarrassed herself by admitting she's scared of human hunters too? Same kind of thing. Keeping things balanced.

Sep 7, 2009 9:44 AM

#110

BashZeStampeedo

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Aug 2009

194

Fabrice said:
Also, just saying this generally for everyone: she brought up the subject of past lovers to get him jealous, because he has been making her jealous lately. Horo's all about staying even. Remember the time when Lawrence got upset about the wolves-eating-humans story, so she embarrassed herself by admitting she's scared of human hunters too? Same kind of thing. Keeping things balanced.

Horo has demonstrated a desire to maintain balance, yes. But I am not sure that this is the reason she brought up the topic. After all, Lawrence went on a jealousy/possessiveness binge in the third arc that nearly ruined their relationship. So it's her fair turn to be jealous. I think she's genuinely terrified, not merely seeking balance.

I get the impression that Horo "fears" Lawrence, partly in the sense that she doesn't know how to repay him. At first, when all he wanted was companionship, it was easy. Then, she could keep balance by helping him make money (even if he went overboard and screwed up). But now after overhearing him at Deanna's she certainly knows that he's essentially in love with her and she doesn't seem to know how to balance that.

Worse, she is also in love with him. He's a pathetic male in her eyes, but he's still a "hero" in some sense of the word (even if he isn't up to the bar she intentionally set for him). He is annoyingly submissive and kind to her, he doesn't "take advantage" of her (ie, when she's drunk/lonely/etc), he blames himself when he should be blaming her, and he's gone beyond the call of duty for her (in his own pathetic way).

Based on that I suspect that Horo is seeking any excuse she can to put some distance between them (and it's not really working). They've already tried twice (once in volume 4, which the anime skips) to define their relationship, but each time they've narrowly dodged having to do so (Lawrence intentionally dodges it the first time, and she intentionally dodges it the second time). They know they can't avoid the inevitable, but I think they are running from that fact.

BashZeStampeedoSep 7, 2009 12:23 PM

Sep 7, 2009 12:03 PM

#111

jacketboy

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Jul 2009

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Zilpzalp said:
wow, am I imagining things or did I see exact the same post somewhere else?

Yeah, I posted it on an earlier page :P Um, thanks for the "retweet" Fabrice

@bash I think her feelings for him are much stronger than your post implies.

Sep 7, 2009 12:26 PM

#112

BashZeStampeedo

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194

israfel070 said:
@bash I think her feelings for him are much stronger than your post implies.

You're right, I worded it pretty weakly. It's pretty clear that they are both deeply in love, what wasn't clear is why she brought up that topic in the first place (which I was trying to focus on, and got lost in my explanation).

Sep 7, 2009 1:06 PM

#113

FTGT

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Feb 2008

712

For crying out loud , what a shame!

If the creators of this show would have the same funds as i.e. the Suzumiya Haruhi makers, this episode could have been so much better in case of facial expressions and animation. Such important scenes lost a lot of impact (at least for me).

*sigh*

Otherwise great episode! Definitely better than the previous one....

And also very insightful comments in this Thread. Fun to read! ^^

Unfortunatley some of the conversations during this episode were quite confusing for me. Maybe some of you can help me with it:

1) What did Horo mean by "sweet and salty water"?

2) What was Lawrence talking about while carrying all the books?
L: "It must be really easy to wave your hands like that when you're not holding anything".
H: "You should watch your mouth doesn't get your jilted one day."
H: "Males just get overexcited when flattered".
L: "Even though I'm in no position to, I just get frustrated."

After that Horo starts to laugh and applauds him. Why? What did he actually hint at?

MaraJade116 said:
Call me crazy or perverted... wth they're both true - but I was almost getting the vibe there at the end that she's never had another *human* lover - that all the finger-counting was just to make Lawrence nuts (as usual ;) - and that that is what she's scared by. Is it just me?

I got the same impression somehow. Maybe she is clumsy in bed or starts to bite and scrape when it comes to mating? :P

PS:
(melodie: Madonna - Like a Virgin)
[sing] Like a wolf-girl.... touched for the very first time.....like a wooooooolf girl... I feel your tail wagging.... next to mine... [/sing] :P

Sep 7, 2009 3:03 PM

#114

BashZeStampeedo

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Aug 2009

194

FTGT said:

1) What did Horo mean by "sweet and salty water"?
2) What was Lawrence talking about while carrying all the books?

I asked the same questions at A/S, and we came up with some ideas:

1) Horo is possibly referring to their relationship as "sweet and salty", in that it's so sweet that the longer it goes on, the more "salty" it gets (ie, the more worried she is that it will end). Or, perhaps she is (in a roundabout way) expressing her thanks that he is tempering his sweetness to her with a some "bad guy" saltiness to keep things from getting too serious.

2) The best we could come up with was that Horo was impressed that for once he "beat her" by not trying to play a game with her but by actually expressing his desire for a little sweetness back from her :) In other words, maybe something like this was intended "although I'm no in position to argue about that I'd get excited with flattery, I get frustrated when I receive none at all". Still doesn't seem that funny to me..

FTGT said:

I got the same impression somehow [that she has never had another *human* lover]. Maybe she is clumsy in bed or starts to bite and scrape when it comes to mating? :P

Based on how gracefully he takes her punches and constant wordplay, I get the impression that Lawrence is a bit of a masochist - I'm sure he wouldn't mind a little "rough treatment" from her in bed :D

FTGT said:

[sing] Like a wolf-girl.... touched for the very first time.....like a wooooooolf girl... I feel your tail wagging.... next to mine... [/sing] :P

D'awwwwww! :)

Sep 7, 2009 3:23 PM

#115

noteDhero

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Aug 2008

4367

Not a bad episode. In fact, this might be one of the better, if not best episode of the season. The conversation between Horo and Lawrence on the way to whats-his-name's place is among the best in their conversations during the whole series. Likewise Horo being tucked in was also quite profoud given her actions recently, but since that's already been discussed, I won't go any further.

My thing is though, that like Horo said before they knocked on the door, "That's enough of the witty banter, it's time to go back to boring reality." That pretty much just sums it all up, why no single episode ever stands out, and why the show itself just can't break beyond mediocrity for me. Everything that doesn't explicity deal with Horo and Lawrence seems like a sad attempt at a sideshow, and just isn't engaging.

Gay-Nerds: Nerd Rage: The Moefication of Anime
Intellectual Gushing: Mars of Destruction (April Fools' Special)

Sep 7, 2009 4:12 PM

#116

FTGT

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Feb 2008

712

noteDhero said:

...
My thing is though, that like Horo said before they knocked on the door, "That's enough of the witty banter, it's time to go back to boring reality." That pretty much just sums it all up, why no single episode ever stands out, and why the show itself just can't break beyond mediocrity for me. Everything that doesn't explicity deal with Horo and Lawrence seems like a sad attempt at a sideshow, and just isn't engaging.

I have to agree in a way. Everything except the main couple seems to be somewhat shallow and intangible (although a lot of side characters are great imo). This show has way more potential in case of main plot than it actually uses.

BUT, due to the fact that there isnt another show out there (as far as I know) that outlines the relationship between two lovers in such a delicate way, combined with trading strategies, mythical beings and a (hopefully) complete medieval road trip, it is far from the (mass produced) mediocre shows.

FTGTSep 7, 2009 4:16 PM

Sep 7, 2009 4:14 PM

#117

noteDhero

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Aug 2008

4367

Bakemonogatari is dangerously close to giving me an equally engaging relatioinship...and it's much prettier. And the leads are much more upfront than Horo and Lawrence have ever been.

Gay-Nerds: Nerd Rage: The Moefication of Anime
Intellectual Gushing: Mars of Destruction (April Fools' Special)

Sep 7, 2009 4:20 PM

#118

FTGT

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Feb 2008

712

noteDhero said:
Bakemonogatari is dangerously close to giving me an equally engaging relatioinship...and it's much prettier. And the leads are much more upfront than Horo and Lawrence have ever been.

*taking Notes*
Any other show that gives you the same or similar vibes?
(always up for some suggestions!)

Sep 7, 2009 4:29 PM

#119

Mikiyo

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Jan 2009

806

noteDhero said:
Bakemonogatari is dangerously close to giving me an equally engaging relatioinship...and it's much prettier. And the leads are much more upfront than Horo and Lawrence have ever been.

I laughed so fucking hard at this. I need to wipe my tears away...

I'm wondering if this guy is being sarcastic.

My Anime List. | 皆は見つけられる必要がある。 | Relentless.

Sep 7, 2009 5:01 PM

#120

noteDhero

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Aug 2008

4367

FTGT said:

noteDhero said:
Bakemonogatari is dangerously close to giving me an equally engaging relatioinship...and it's much prettier. And the leads are much more upfront than Horo and Lawrence have ever been.

*taking Notes*
Any other show that gives you the same or similar vibes?
(always up for some suggestions!)

Off the top of my head? No. But Bakemonogatari definitely doesn't have the medieval setting.

Mikiyo said:

noteDhero said:
Bakemonogatari is dangerously close to giving me an equally engaging relatioinship...and it's much prettier. And the leads are much more upfront than Horo and Lawrence have ever been.

I laughed so fucking hard at this. I need to wipe my tears away...

I'm wondering if this guy is being sarcastic.

Definitely not being sarcastic. I don't want to bring this into a SW v. Bakemono discussion, but I felt it was relevant to bring it up.

Gay-Nerds: Nerd Rage: The Moefication of Anime
Intellectual Gushing: Mars of Destruction (April Fools' Special)

Sep 7, 2009 5:09 PM

#121

jacketboy

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Jul 2009

71

I'm putting these in chronological order:

2) What was Lawrence talking about while carrying all the books?
L: "It must be really easy to wave your hands like that when you're not holding anything".
H: "You should watch your mouth doesn't get your jilted one day."
H: "Males just get overexcited when flattered".
L: "Even though I'm in no position to, I just get frustrated."

This episode has a lot of Japanese wordplay. Like earlier "And what color would your soul be?" "Many colors, I guess" used the word for soul which contains the syllable "iro" and then her response "iro iro!" for "many, many!"

In this case, Lawrence resumes the conversation immediately after they leave the bookkeeper; they had ended it on a sour note with him demanding "how many?" and her hurt expression.
L: He made a sly reference to her finger-counting with "wave your hands like that" and pointed out that she isn't holding anything, an oblique way of saying "you don't have a man now." He's still slightly huffy and distancing himself, but not too seriously.
H: Hence her sharp response, which sidesteps his suggestion that he's not hers (he can't be jilted unless someone has him), and threatens that someone will leave him if he acts that way.
H: She says that his head got inflated with all his high-horse talk about her jealousy and selfishness, and he's feeling too full of himself because of her nice reaction to his hand-kiss. She is willing to brush off the whole fight.
L: Lawrence basically says that he's still a little upset, even though he's in no position to criticize how many people she's been with before.

Taking this episode on its own, it feels like Horo is being bitchy by bringing up past men, but you've gotta remember that Lawrence has been patronizing her hardcore with all of the "you poor jealous self-hating little thing, you need me so bad" kind of talk.

She tried to nicely point out that he is just as jealous and possessive as she is (speaking in the context of her jealousy, "your soul is the same color as mine"), but he persisted in looking down on her. So she gave him a demonstration that he's not any more dignified or noble than she is, lol.

I like this ep because it shows that they both can be harsh and flawed, they're normal people. Also, Lawrence is getting better at hashing out a problem right away, instead of bottling it up, so nice progression there.

FTGT said:
1) What did Horo mean by "sweet and salty water"?

It's just a common Japanese saying (there are many dozens of them in each book, and they don't always translate well into a neat and tidy English sentence). In this case it's really close to "bittersweet."

After their little fight, they went out and made up to the point that Horo is happily holding his arm. Lawrence correctly realizes that if she were always nice to him, he'd "go bad" (by turning rather pompous). He knows that her way of dealing with him, although sometimes sharp, is probably wise and the right way to bring out his best side. So she warmly says "Bittersweet, hmm?" It's a concept taking both the good and bad, and embracing the whole. Meaning, she accepts their whole relationship for what it is, good and bad. She's reaffirming things.

jacketboySep 7, 2009 5:22 PM

Sep 7, 2009 5:43 PM

#122

BashZeStampeedo

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Aug 2009

194

israfel070 said:
I'm putting these in chronological order:

2) What was Lawrence talking about while carrying all the books?
L: "It must be really easy to wave your hands like that when you're not holding anything".
H: "You should watch your mouth doesn't get your jilted one day."
H: "Males just get overexcited when flattered".
L: "Even though I'm in no position to, I just get frustrated."

This episode has a lot of Japanese wordplay. Like earlier "And what color would your soul be?" "Many colors, I guess" used the word for soul which contains the syllable "iro" and then her response "iro iro!" for "many, many!"

In this case, Lawrence resumes the conversation immediately after they leave the bookkeeper; they had ended it on a sour note with him demanding "how many?" and her hurt expression.
L: He made a sly reference to her finger-counting with "wave your hands like that" and pointed out that she isn't holding anything, an oblique way of saying "you don't have a man now." He's still slightly huffy and distancing himself, but not too seriously.
H: Hence her sharp response, which sidesteps his suggestion that he's not hers (he can't be jilted unless someone has him), and threatens that someone will leave him if he acts that way.
H: She says that his head got inflated with all his high-horse talk about her jealousy and selfishness, and he's feeling too full of himself because of her nice reaction to his hand-kiss. She is willing to brush off the whole fight.
L: Lawrence basically says that he's still a little upset, even though he's in no position to criticize how many people she's been with before.

Taking this episode on its own, it feels like Horo is being bitchy by bringing up past men, but you've gotta remember that Lawrence has been patronizing her hardcore with all of the "you poor jealous self-hating little thing, you need me so bad" kind of talk.

She tried to nicely point out that he is just as jealous and possessive as she is (speaking in the context of her jealousy, "your soul is the same color as mine"), but he persisted in looking down on her. So she gave him a demonstration that he's not any more dignified or noble than she is, lol.

I like this ep because it shows that they both can be harsh and flawed, they're normal people. Also, Lawrence is getting better at hashing out a problem right away, instead of bottling it up, so nice progression there.

FTGT said:
1) What did Horo mean by "sweet and salty water"?

It's just a common Japanese saying (there are many dozens of them in each book, and they don't always translate well into a neat and tidy English sentence). In this case it's really close to "bittersweet."

After their little fight, they went out and made up to the point that Horo is happily holding his arm. Lawrence correctly realizes that if she were always nice to him, he'd "go bad" (by turning rather pompous). He knows that her way of dealing with him, although sometimes sharp, is probably wise and the right way to bring out his best side. So she warmly says "Bittersweet, hmm?" It's a concept taking both the good and bad, and embracing the whole. Meaning, she accepts their whole relationship for what it is, good and bad. She's reaffirming things.

Wow, thanks. The fansubs and facial expressions gave me a completely different impression. It's good to know that he was actually being a bit of a jerk, because I didn't really get that impression at all. After the last couple of episodes I honestly thought he had genuinely softened up, but I guess he really is more affected by their games than he lets on.

Sep 7, 2009 5:55 PM

#123

jacketboy

Offline

Jul 2009

71

BashZeStampeedo said:

israfel070 said:
I'm putting these in chronological order:

2) What was Lawrence talking about while carrying all the books?
L: "It must be really easy to wave your hands like that when you're not holding anything".
H: "You should watch your mouth doesn't get your jilted one day."
H: "Males just get overexcited when flattered".
L: "Even though I'm in no position to, I just get frustrated."

This episode has a lot of Japanese wordplay. Like earlier "And what color would your soul be?" "Many colors, I guess" used the word for soul which contains the syllable "iro" and then her response "iro iro!" for "many, many!"

In this case, Lawrence resumes the conversation immediately after they leave the bookkeeper; they had ended it on a sour note with him demanding "how many?" and her hurt expression.
L: He made a sly reference to her finger-counting with "wave your hands like that" and pointed out that she isn't holding anything, an oblique way of saying "you don't have a man now." He's still slightly huffy and distancing himself, but not too seriously.
H: Hence her sharp response, which sidesteps his suggestion that he's not hers (he can't be jilted unless someone has him), and threatens that someone will leave him if he acts that way.
H: She says that his head got inflated with all his high-horse talk about her jealousy and selfishness, and he's feeling too full of himself because of her nice reaction to his hand-kiss. She is willing to brush off the whole fight.
L: Lawrence basically says that he's still a little upset, even though he's in no position to criticize how many people she's been with before.

Taking this episode on its own, it feels like Horo is being bitchy by bringing up past men, but you've gotta remember that Lawrence has been patronizing her hardcore with all of the "you poor jealous self-hating little thing, you need me so bad" kind of talk.

She tried to nicely point out that he is just as jealous and possessive as she is (speaking in the context of her jealousy, "your soul is the same color as mine"), but he persisted in looking down on her. So she gave him a demonstration that he's not any more dignified or noble than she is, lol.

I like this ep because it shows that they both can be harsh and flawed, they're normal people. Also, Lawrence is getting better at hashing out a problem right away, instead of bottling it up, so nice progression there.

FTGT said:
1) What did Horo mean by "sweet and salty water"?

It's just a common Japanese saying (there are many dozens of them in each book, and they don't always translate well into a neat and tidy English sentence). In this case it's really close to "bittersweet."

After their little fight, they went out and made up to the point that Horo is happily holding his arm. Lawrence correctly realizes that if she were always nice to him, he'd "go bad" (by turning rather pompous). He knows that her way of dealing with him, although sometimes sharp, is probably wise and the right way to bring out his best side. So she warmly says "Bittersweet, hmm?" It's a concept taking both the good and bad, and embracing the whole. Meaning, she accepts their whole relationship for what it is, good and bad. She's reaffirming things.

Wow, thanks. The fansubs and facial expressions gave me a completely different impression. It's good to know that he was actually being a bit of a jerk, because I didn't really get that impression at all. After the last couple of episodes I honestly thought he had genuinely softened up, but I guess he really is more affected by their games than he lets on.

Well, yeah, obviously he's pissed by her counting off all her lovers, especially when he had been feeling like he had the "upper hand" over Horo. They were both jerks. Horo could probably have thought of a better way to deflate him, but she went for the nuclear option because his attitude was offending her pride.

Sep 7, 2009 6:47 PM

#124

Orion1

Offline

Oct 2008

1501

vinesage said:
I thought Horo said "that guy" was pretty dumb, no? I had the impression he was a cheerful headless farmer guy in village. Anyway, i remember she said Lawrence somehow reminded her of him and he and Lawrence are actually quite different. I can't remember any other guy Horo has openly talked about and i always thought Horo stayed alone near the village for a very very long time after that guy died (which was pretty sad....) until that lucky bast*rd Lawrence popped up and took her with him :D

I like this point and think that it could offer some insight into Horo's fear. I think she fears getting her heart broken again. After all it is possible she spent 200 years in that village mending a broken heart.

Mikiyo said:
Anyway that cliffhanger just berserk'd me. So, Lawrence gives Princess Zelda all his money or, she will sell Horo's true identity in the town (If im not wrong), and with the conmotion between the 50 meeting man and the fur, lets say that it won't be that cool to watch em' again run for their lives (And her tail lolol). Also, We all know that Lawrence can't go bankrupt otherwise he would turn out in a slave, thats the same as death on itself. I'm more worried about Harold, what exactly the heck means "Maybe it's time I go on a pilgrimage". Sighs, just kill me the fuck already with all the waiting between episodes please.

This idea really seems the more logical, compared to the idea that Lawrence is actually contemplating making a profit at Horo's expense. I also think there is something devious going on.

As for the whole bakemonogatari vs. Spice and Wolf comment. Both series are interesting but completely different. Personally I agree that S&W's relationship building is more realistic. Plus BG's lack of character development and focus on the main characters is starting to kill it for me. How is a love story supposed to develop if they never focus on the characters involved. S&W is turning out to be Summers real gem IMO. If BM doesn't do something quick it's going to have to be added to long list of series that just had no idea how to focus itself on the important themes.

Sep 7, 2009 6:55 PM

#125

BashZeStampeedo

Offline

Aug 2009

194

israfel070 said:

BashZeStampeedo said:

israfel070 said:
I'm putting these in chronological order:

2) What was Lawrence talking about while carrying all the books?
L: "It must be really easy to wave your hands like that when you're not holding anything".
H: "You should watch your mouth doesn't get your jilted one day."
H: "Males just get overexcited when flattered".
L: "Even though I'm in no position to, I just get frustrated."

This episode has a lot of Japanese wordplay. Like earlier "And what color would your soul be?" "Many colors, I guess" used the word for soul which contains the syllable "iro" and then her response "iro iro!" for "many, many!"

In this case, Lawrence resumes the conversation immediately after they leave the bookkeeper; they had ended it on a sour note with him demanding "how many?" and her hurt expression.
L: He made a sly reference to her finger-counting with "wave your hands like that" and pointed out that she isn't holding anything, an oblique way of saying "you don't have a man now." He's still slightly huffy and distancing himself, but not too seriously.
H: Hence her sharp response, which sidesteps his suggestion that he's not hers (he can't be jilted unless someone has him), and threatens that someone will leave him if he acts that way.
H: She says that his head got inflated with all his high-horse talk about her jealousy and selfishness, and he's feeling too full of himself because of her nice reaction to his hand-kiss. She is willing to brush off the whole fight.
L: Lawrence basically says that he's still a little upset, even though he's in no position to criticize how many people she's been with before.

Taking this episode on its own, it feels like Horo is being bitchy by bringing up past men, but you've gotta remember that Lawrence has been patronizing her hardcore with all of the "you poor jealous self-hating little thing, you need me so bad" kind of talk.

She tried to nicely point out that he is just as jealous and possessive as she is (speaking in the context of her jealousy, "your soul is the same color as mine"), but he persisted in looking down on her. So she gave him a demonstration that he's not any more dignified or noble than she is, lol.

I like this ep because it shows that they both can be harsh and flawed, they're normal people. Also, Lawrence is getting better at hashing out a problem right away, instead of bottling it up, so nice progression there.

FTGT said:
1) What did Horo mean by "sweet and salty water"?

It's just a common Japanese saying (there are many dozens of them in each book, and they don't always translate well into a neat and tidy English sentence). In this case it's really close to "bittersweet."

After their little fight, they went out and made up to the point that Horo is happily holding his arm. Lawrence correctly realizes that if she were always nice to him, he'd "go bad" (by turning rather pompous). He knows that her way of dealing with him, although sometimes sharp, is probably wise and the right way to bring out his best side. So she warmly says "Bittersweet, hmm?" It's a concept taking both the good and bad, and embracing the whole. Meaning, she accepts their whole relationship for what it is, good and bad. She's reaffirming things.

Wow, thanks. The fansubs and facial expressions gave me a completely different impression. It's good to know that he was actually being a bit of a jerk, because I didn't really get that impression at all. After the last couple of episodes I honestly thought he had genuinely softened up, but I guess he really is more affected by their games than he lets on.

Well, yeah, obviously he's pissed by her counting off all her lovers, especially when he had been feeling like he had the "upper hand" over Horo. They were both jerks. Horo could probably have thought of a better way to deflate him, but she went for the nuclear option because his attitude was offending her pride.

And here I was honestly under the impression that he didn't really care that much about that topic, and was only calling her bluff. It's good to know that the conversation continued, because it seemed a lot more innocent than that. They could probably have animated that scene a little more realistically, because they were really not acting as angry as their words imply they were (based on what you've said).

Sep 7, 2009 7:18 PM

#126

jacketboy

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Jul 2009

71

BashZeStampeedo said:

And here I was honestly under the impression that he didn't really care that much about that topic, and was only calling her bluff. It's good to know that the conversation continued, because it seemed a lot more innocent than that. They could probably have animated that scene a little more realistically, because they were really not acting as angry as their words imply they were (based on what you've said).

Yeah, that's why she looked hurt at the end of Round 1. Because he was actually pissed and asked "how many?" in an accusatory way.

It's not really a knock-down drag-out fight like in ep 3, but it continues the subjects of Horo's long lifespan, their growing mutual possessiveness, and especially what Lawrence said about taking things to the next physical level "when she stops doing it to tease him," I'd say in this ep, he realized that if she were as gentle as a lamb with him, his own ego would get out of control.

Also, Lawrence you horndog!!! XD

Her "scary" is a whole other conversation.

Sep 7, 2009 8:55 PM

#127

Secured

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Jan 2008

155

Guess I'll have to wait till next week to find out what the big deal is with the ending. Of course Lawrence won't sell Horo, so it shouldn't be a problem unless something else is going on here.

Sep 7, 2009 9:12 PM

#128

BashZeStampeedo

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Aug 2009

194

israfel070 said:
It's not really a knock-down drag-out fight like in ep 3, but it continues the subjects of Horo's long lifespan, their growing mutual possessiveness, and especially what Lawrence said about taking things to the next physical level "when she stops doing it to tease him," I'd say in this ep, he realized that if she were as gentle as a lamb with him, his own ego would get out of control.

Yeah, it's certainly bittersweet that they are so "right" for each other. Who else would be able to put up with the likes of them? :D

israfel070 said:
Also, Lawrence you horndog!!! XD

I think he's been holding himself back rather admirably, don't you? I'm not sure I could have resisted her this long, especially not during that scene (yowza!). I can see why she seems to implicitly trust him enough to get drunk off her ass.

israfel070 said:
Her "scary" is a whole other conversation.

How do you interpret it? I get the impression that she's scared either because she doesn't know how to repay his kindness, because she doesn't know what he really wants, or because she actually has a difficult time reading him (unlike other humans). Of course it might just be that she's saying she's scared of their relationship getting so serious?

Sep 7, 2009 10:56 PM

#129

jacketboy

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Jul 2009

71

israfel070 said:
Also, Lawrence you horndog!!! XD

I think he's been holding himself back rather admirably, don't you? I'm not sure I could have resisted her this long, especially not during that scene (yowza!). I can see why she seems to implicitly trust him enough to get drunk off her ass.

I'm just referring to the fact that he gave her a very thorough once-over XD And I don't think holding back in a case like this is particularly admirable, it's actually kinda emotionally stunted IMO. Even Horo said she wouldn't mind if they became lovers at this point, but she's willing to wait for Lawrence to feel ready. Whenever the HELL that'll happen.

israfel070 said:
Her "scary" is a whole other conversation.

How do you interpret it? I get the impression that she's scared either because she doesn't know how to repay his kindness, because she doesn't know what he really wants, or because she actually has a difficult time reading him (unlike other humans). Of course it might just be that she's saying she's scared of their relationship getting so serious?

I wouldn't put it in terms of reading or seriousness. She can read him whenever she wants, and uses it against him constantly, and he's well aware of it too.

I'd say (and again, I haven't read any of the books from this point on) she chose to say that at that moment because of how gentle he was being. It's the quality that she finds most heartwarming and endearing.

The "scary" thing was the closeness of the moment itself. She half-wants to keep her distance, not only because of the end-of-journey thing, but because commitment itself is scary. If you allow someone you care about to get that close, you're giving them a lot of power to hurt you, or for you to badly hurt them. I have a commitment-terrified friend who Horo constantly reminds me of, so I guess it's possible that I'm projecting a bit XD But I actually do believe I'm understanding this right.

They both kinda took a shot over each other's bow this ep. He was mistrusting her in Amarti arc, did the "which name did you call" and hand-slap stuff in season 1 that bothered her, but now they're much closer and Lawrence's angry "Well? How many guys have you slept with?" is probably the closest anyone has come to really hurting her in a long time. They've made up by the end of the episode, but the day reminded her of that.

jacketboySep 7, 2009 11:00 PM

Sep 8, 2009 8:07 AM

#130

Fryr

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May 2009

18

I sort of liked the Ending - because it will show together with the next Episode how Lawrence has changed/ he will realise how he changed because he,who dream was to get his own shop,will don't take this Chance because he wants to stay with her.

Sep 8, 2009 8:26 AM

#131

BashZeStampeedo

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Aug 2009

194

israfel070 said:
I'm just referring to the fact that he gave her a very thorough once-over XD And I don't think holding back in a case like this is particularly admirable, it's actually kinda emotionally stunted IMO. Even Horo said she wouldn't mind if they became lovers at this point, but she's willing to wait for Lawrence to feel ready. Whenever the HELL that'll happen.

He seems to be afraid that it would end up a one-night stand and that it would harm their relationship. In volumes 3 and 4 they both takes turns silently agreeing to keep their relationship "level" to give them time to figure things out. His recent behavior shows he's starting to "crack", admitting things he shouldn't be, and having to leave her alone at night out of fear of what might happen.

israfel070 said:
The "scary" thing was the closeness of the moment itself. She half-wants to keep her distance, not only because of the end-of-journey thing, but because commitment itself is scary. If you allow someone you care about to get that close, you're giving them a lot of power to hurt you, or for you to badly hurt them. I have a commitment-terrified friend who Horo constantly reminds me of, so I guess it's possible that I'm projecting a bit XD But I actually do believe I'm understanding this right.

I can't agree more, I've had plenty of experience helping people through this situation. I get lost in the translation with this story, but with your help I realize just how "classic" the situation seems to be.

By the end of the episode she seems to realize that he's really struggling with this. Her attitude towards sex seems completely different from his, and I think she finally realizes that to him it would signal the next level of their relationship. She conveniently gives him an escape route when he's getting ready to pounce on her, and lets him go downstairs because she finally understands why he's resisting.

Your insight that she is scared of making a commitment helps ellucidate this. I think she's also implying that she's scared that they will gradually drift apart if he keeps holding back. It feels like she has come full-circle. She didn't quite understand why Lawrence was rejecting her, but now she gets it, and she's even more scared.

Sep 8, 2009 10:08 AM

#132

KillthisAccount

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May 2008

1409

Good episode, that had a little bit of everything from plot progression to character development and showing how far character progression has gone. However, this episode seemed to take a dive in animation quality in certain sections.

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Sep 9, 2009 8:47 PM

#133

KayleL

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Mar 2009

30

Good think I went onto this forum. I have a much deeper understanding now. Their are points in some episodes that I get completely lost, so I just ignore what they just said.

Sep 9, 2009 9:31 PM

#134

kisami

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Feb 2008

5383

it would be unreasonable to think that shes been alive for that long without getting it on a few times.

lawrence will end up being a digit on her fingers but its the nature of their relationship. if she doe not die, she will out live him. and she will have to move on. they both understand this but they don't talk about it.

i am curious to find out as to why she would ask to buy horo.

Sep 12, 2009 4:06 AM

#135

Crimsonwill

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Nov 2007

3017

Nice episode, although the ending leaves you wondering at why she wants Horo =O

Sep 12, 2009 10:18 AM

#136

Starrlightx3

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Sep 2008

631

Great episode. I enjoyed it a lot. Except I didn't like the ending...didn't we just go through this? It feels the same to me :| Of course, I could be proven wrong with the next one. Meh...
& as for the people in this thread, I thought it seemed kinda obvious she was just trying to make him jealous. ><

Sep 17, 2009 12:36 PM

#137

Lab-Member-000

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Aug 2007

1071

hmm animation seemed kinda off to me on Horo's face during close-ups.

anyway, pretty interesting. Horo hints at things yet again to Lawrence

Oct 17, 2009 1:35 PM

#138

Moonfrost

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Aug 2009

1657

Would you sell your companion? What the fuck is this?
We learned from previous episodes that Lawrence treasures Horo a lot. Of course he would reject the offer of that mysterious tomboyish merchant. If he doesn't, I'm going to freaking rage.

Horo was just teasing/playing with Lawrence when she said she had a lot. She may had a lot in the past, but she's extremely loyal. She's like an immortal afterall, probably those "boys" might have died already.

-->"The Bird of the Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame."

Oct 17, 2009 2:03 PM

#139

BashZeStampeedo

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Aug 2009

194

Moonfrost said:
Horo was just teasing/playing with Lawrence when she said she had a lot. She may had a lot in the past, but she's extremely loyal. She's like an immortal afterall, probably those "boys" might have died already.

Of course, Horo took her teasing too far this time around, and you can't fault Lawrence for letting her know that :)

Besides.. if she is going to tease him so much about his apparent virginity, she deserves some dressing down of her own. She's lucky the puppy-dog eyes work so well on him, and didn't seem too sorry about it after he let her off the hook. Besides, she got her answer: he doesn't seem to really care, he was just annoyed that she was teasing him so relentlessly.

Nov 10, 2009 2:57 PM

#140

Topspin

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Nov 2009

24

Watching Lawrence and Horo dance around each other was actually annoying this time around. Horo spends the entire episode acting like an ass and shooting down Lawrence's meager attempts to get to know her. She pisses him off, and then gets mad at him for being pissed off. Really? She's acting more like a 15 year old than a 600 year old.

You have to wonder whether she wants a relationship or just some poor sucker to tease endlessly. That bed scene was just heart-wrenching. What do you want, Horo? If anything I can only sympathize *more* with Lawrence after this episode.

If anything I think it's clear that both of them are new to this whole "love" thing. This could either be sloppy or brilliant storytelling, depending on how it plays out. The dialogue was pretty clever, at least.

Feb 2, 2010 2:05 AM

#141

werrston

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Jan 2010

1891

"It won't be sheep I would be counting on top of the bed"

"You are always briming with ill intentions, aren't you?"

"Will you sell your companion?"

Feb 14, 2010 9:44 AM

#142

Kenaya

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Jul 2009

152

Oh.. What a teasing episode >_<

I have read all 8 pages and have opened for myself a lot of inetersting information. As a result I agree with those, who think that Horo hadn't love before Lawrence. Finger counting is just for playing with him. Awwwww... It's too embarassed to think about is Horo virgin or not. I believe in her ^_^

BashZeStampeedo said:
She didn't quite understand why Lawrence was rejecting her, but now she gets it, and she's even more scared.

And why is Lawrence rejecting her? I don't get it ((

Feb 14, 2010 12:30 PM

#143

Topspin

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Nov 2009

24

Kenaya said:
And why is Lawrence rejecting her? I don't get it ((

He's "rejecting" their usual games, especially her drunken and half-joking advances, because he's afraid he'll break the delicate balance between them if he doesn't hold back. She seems to be grasping just how far he's fallen for her, and she's not sure what to do about it.

Jun 19, 2010 10:07 AM

#144

darkerealm

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Aug 2008

2085

What? Sell Horo?!

*smacks Lawrence*

Did you know every time you sigh, a little bit of happiness escapes?

Jun 25, 2010 4:20 PM

#145

Duzell

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Dec 2009

3338

Sell Horo ? Where ? O_O !!! XDDD

Aug 18, 2010 4:13 AM

#146

removed-user

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Jul 2018

564612

Is Horo a virgin? Yes...open the spoiler and take a look at her hands...

removed-userAug 18, 2010 4:17 AM

Aug 19, 2010 6:20 AM

#147

BashZeStampeedo

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Aug 2009

194

@OneManArmy: why didn't I ever catch that? Given how she snaps back at him later in the ep when he'd holding all the books, I wouldn't be surprised if she was being serious for a change. If you look at it THAT way, though, was he implying in that later scene that he was also a virgin? It would be embarrassing if I missed the entire point of the episode like that.

Aug 20, 2010 2:25 AM

#148

removed-user

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Jul 2018

564612

You are right, he is also a virgin. You can see it in the way he acts all the time and in an episode he says : "This is my first time that i travel with a women." So i guess he never thought about a lover or something like that.

Horos problem is that she have fear to fall in love with him because of his kindness.

Whole episode was about the growing relationship between them.

removed-userAug 20, 2010 3:22 AM

Aug 20, 2010 7:18 AM

#149

BashZeStampeedo

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Aug 2009

194

OneManArmy said:
You can see it in the way he acts all the time.

You can certainly see his inexperience with women, and the fact that he's not a sex-fiend, but it's implied that he's possibly not a virgin in the books. Whether that's true or not is proven irrelevant by what he says, and how she reacts, in this episode. She basically eggs him on until he makes it clear that he's not holding back because he's got sexual hang-ups to do with virginity.

OneManArmy said:
Horos problem is that she have fear to fall in love with him because of his kindness.

Based on what she says her apparent problem isn't just a simple fear of falling for him because of his "kindness".

OneManArmy said:
Whole episode was about the growing relationship between them

The whole series is about that :) They've been trying to get each other to "break" and admit how they feeling about each other. That's why Lawrence was so overjoyed when his kiss on her hand was so effective, after all.

If I were to summarize it, this episode was just her seducing him to test how serious he is and whether she can still manipulate him. She spends the whole episode getting him to accidentally admit things, but it's not as easy as it used to be. He even miraculously holds back from jumping on her. Their relationship is clearly *serious business* to him, and she's losing her ability to control and manipulate him.. SCARY!

Aug 20, 2010 8:00 AM

#150

removed-user

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564612

BashZeStampeedo said:

You can certainly see his inexperience with women, and the fact that he's not a sex-fiend, but it's implied that he's possibly not a virgin in the books. Whether that's true or not is proven irrelevant by what he says, and how she reacts, in this episode. She basically eggs him on until he makes it clear that he's not holding back because he's got sexual hang-ups to do with virginity.

I can't say anything about the book because i didn't read the novel.
But as a traveling merchant its difficult to find even friends, that were his words.
Ah please remember that bed-szene in season 1...he had no idea what to do...when you saw his face it was : wtf?
And horo said (more then one time?) "But that was a good practice for you, wasn't it?"
So i still think that he's a virgin but i really don't care about it.

BashZeStampeedo said:

Based on what she says her apparent problem isn't just a simple fear of falling for him because of his "kindness".

First sentence is the main point you are definitely right and i knew that...but i hate to write long comments. =D
Yeah deanna wasn't accepted by her lover when he knew about her real form. So horo should be really happy.

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