Kara no Kyoukai 7: Satsujin Kousatsu (Part 2) Episode 1 Discussion

pillsbury15 said:
I have one little teeny tiny thing bothering me which I noticed after my third time watching this... who is Shizune after the credits Mikiya is talking about a girl called Shizune who told him not to get involved with Shiki.

CrimsonKaiju said:
I am very disappointed in you certain people.

The LAST thing on my mind after having to kill a crazy ass serial killer who semi-raped me with his drool would be kissing.

The LAST thing on my mind after being kissed by a dude, forced to take drugs, being stabbed in the leg and having my eye slashed out would be kissing.

You people can't be serious.

Their relationship was no where NEAR romantic. If they had kissed during that scene, I would have fawking raged because it would have made NO SENSE. Now would NOT have been the time to fricking profess your love to ANYONE. Instead, it was a "thank god you're still alive, I won't let you go, it's over" hug which I found to be amazing and not selfish.

No doubt, they certainly grew closer but if anything, it was just the beginning of their relationship as obviously seen from the ending. Shiki held his hand, not dropped everything and "glomped" him the moment he came out. She didn't even visit him while he was in the hospital.

Someone please tell me how a kiss would have been appropriate cause I'm just not seeing it and I'm tired of people throwing a damned fit over something so shallow, sorry.

/end rage

TyG3R said:
What happened with Aozaki ?

TyG3R said:
What happened with Aozaki ?

f0ut said:
Woh, how to butcher a great show in only 2 hours. Did you guys really like this movie? They left all the yandere

LostHanyou said:

Possible spoiler for another type-moon/nasu work

VictimOfFate said:
Really disappointing overall, this pretty much runed the interesting conflict about how the truth about Shiki's connection to murders will affect Mikiya's relationship with her. I mean, everything seemed to be building up to that and in the end we get blatant moralizing and pretentious philosophy over such a simple message.

ronri said:

The idea is that Shiki always had it in her to become a killer (FYI Shiki is actually mentally unstable and borderline insane), it's her attachment and days spent with Mikiya that allowed her to soften up and resist her murderous urges.

ronri said:

The revelation in which she is shown to be innocent due to Lio actually committing the original murders further emphasizes this point.

ronri said:

When Mikiya said "he wouldn't forgive her", it wasn't a question and test of morality, it was to see if Shiki truly cared about their deep connection. We already know that Mikiya is willing to forgive Shiki for anything she does, so that statement was him simply testing her and their relationship.

ronri said:

Why would she force herself to act differently (hunt Lio on her own without help or assitance from Mikiya and Touko) if she desired that? Why is she still trying to prove that she's not a homicidal maniac by killing a homicidal maniac? (see the contradiction here?)

ronri said:

The idea behind Shiki's murderous urge and her connection to Mikiya wasn't one of philosophical morality (it was completely justified to kill Lio, even the movie says so), it was one of self-denial and acceptance what Shiki truly wanted (contrary to what some might think).

ronri said:

Shiki was on the brink of becoming a true killer (and willingly so) when she decided to hunt down Lio. If anything, it was Mikiya's words that saved her from becoming a killer, when by all means, she should've become one given her mental state.

VictimOfFate said:
I think that was left somewhat open, but it doesn't matter if Shiki or SHIKI murdered them or not. Mikiya wants to believe in the Shiki in front of him without regard to her past sins and wants to keep her from straying. Being in denial about Shiki's connection to the murders just means he believes Shiki can save herself from the fate of a murderer no matter what she has done in the past because she truly wants a normal life.

VictimOfFate said:
The two of them didn't even have that much of a strong connection back when the first of the first murders happened so they wouldn't have been that much of a test on their relationship.

VictimOfFate said:
He knew she cared about their connection, he uses it to remind Shiki of what she loses if it happens. It's not a self-serving test to see if she loves him back enough.

VictimOfFate said:
I don't think anyone would mistake those for murderous impulses caused by her origin. They are caused by her emotions, not the joy of killing, and killing in this case is a means to protect her new life. It's a conflict (other than because murder is wrong) either because denying all kinds of will to kill is a symbol of the relationship between Shiki and Mikiya, or because Mikiya fears killing may awaken Shiki's origin

VictimOfFate said:
I agree it's obviously less important than the role of murder in Shiki's character development and in the love story between her and Mikiya though. Moralization was just try hard and you become happy, and pretentious philosophy was that usual nasuverse crap, particularly 'you can only kill once' and the difference between murder and slaughter. It's pointless and lacks content or insight but it's glorified just to appear cool.

VictimOfFate said:
Shiki was not going to become a true killer (one who stays true to her origin) rather than protecting her new life. She killed Lio in the end because there was no other choice really, and the decision to kill Lio was mostly driven by the fact it's the only thing she can realistically do without dragging Mikiya into danger. Her origin would always lead her to pick murder as the alternative to anything, but her personality can control it. This is different, it's a conscious choice that is different from failing to resist her urges since it's the only thing she could have done. Like I said earlier, it becomes a conflict in this context either because never killing anyone is an important symbol for her clean start after coma and relationship between her and Mikiya, or because killing may awaken her origin

ronri said:

It was NEVER left open. Mikiya proved that it was all Lio's doing. Lio tried to lie by setting up Shiki/SHIKI as the killer, when in fact it was all his own doing.

ronri said:

That in itself is very much debatable. A lot of their deep connection is implied, not spoken, you tend to forget that Mikiya and Shiki themselves (especially Shiki) started out as introverted characters. The fact that they could act so naturally towards each other over time was enough indication of Shiki's character growth.

ronri said:

I don't think you're getting this. Shiki (even the novel emphasizes this) was actually on the brink of murdering for the first time after such a long time. The fact that it wasn't out of impulse just shows how emotionally unstable she truly was at that time. She was willing to actually throw her life away after murdering Lio and even potentially abandoning Mikiya (again they made this more obvious in the novel). It was Mikiya's words that reminded her of what she always had and wanted to protect which allowed her to abandon her pursuit of Lio at the end (until Lio showed that he "killed" Mikiya...)

ronri said:

[To say that it lacks content or insight is just unfair as the philosophy used was truly needed to avoid the plot holes.

ronri said:

I think you're missing the point again. At the time when she was just pursuing Lio, she was actually willing to kill Lio out of cold blood (the novel emphasizes her cruel and apathetic thoughts much more unlike the silent treatment she was giving in the movie). This is what most people didn't realize, in that Shiki only decided to act rationally during the final sequences of the film thanks to being reminded by Mikiya's words. That's why when she killed Lio she was able to maintain her current mindset, because her motives were different than before. Yes she wanted to protect Mikiya before, but it never dominated her thoughts as she was more furious of the very existence of Lio as he was the one who pretty much drove SHIKI to his death.

victimoffate said:

She killed Lio in the end because there was no other choice really, and the decision to kill Lio was mostly driven by the fact it's the only thing she can realistically do without dragging Mikiya into danger.

ronri said:

Mikiya's point is the psychological impact (that committing murder) will have on Shiki. Shiki didn’t have to go hunt Lio if it was just to stop him or punish him, she could have given the authorities the information or even asked for assistance from Touko and Mikiya (like what she usually would've done) instead, she WANTS to kill him, and Mikiya knows she won’t be the same if she crosses that line.

ronri said:

The point is not that killing is *absolutely wrong*, but that Shiki has unique circumstances that when triggered (i.e. actually killing someone) might actually send her off the brink into stab-happy homicidal mania (it's no lie to say that Shiki is actually borderline insane, even Nasu has referred to her as "tsungire" which he sees as a loose variation of the yandere archetype).

ronri said:

That Shiki actually didn’t devolve to follow her own origin (Death/Nothingness) after actually going through with killing someone had to do with her growth as a person and attachment to Mikiya. By all accounts, she should have. It was her connection to Mikiya that allowed her to remember and think differently in comparison to when she was hunting down Lio out of cold blooded revenge.

ronri said:

Now, part of the reason why I said the 5th movie is better than the 7th is that the 5th movie lays out the intended message much more clearly. In the 7th film, much of the intended message wasn't conveyed clearly enough as a lot of their thought process wasn't shown in the film, relying on deceiving dialogue and subtle expressions instead.

This made the 7th film seem much more average and harder to understand as it requires the viewer re-watch the film just to fully grasp the whole weight of the situation. By all means the filmmakers should've accounted for this, which is why I said before that I find the 5th movie to be a better-constructed film overall where in the novel, it was fairly obvious that the 7th chapter/movie should've been the best one due to the amount of content that they actually fleshed out for Shiki, Mikiya and Lio which sadly wasn't emphasized as much in the film version.