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ScazoN | Yesterday, 3:49 AM
Ah that's a long time away.

I will read the VN's first then start with that order, thanks heaps dude.

ScazoN | Yesterday, 3:29 AM
Alright, sweet! So I should be going with this order (?):
* Fate/stay Night (2014)
* F/Z
* F/Z Season 2
* Fate/kaleid liner Prisma☆Illya

* Fate/stay Night (2006)
* Fate/stay Night : UBW

Ah yeah, I've seen the anime only for Tsukihime so I guess I'll give Carnival Phantasm a go too.

As for the VN and LN you mentioned, I will definitely read them if it is compulsory.

ScazoN | Yesterday, 1:56 AM
Hey dude, I noticed you're a huge Fate fan and I am thinking of starting this since its been talked about a lot on the forums and such, looks really interesting as well. I was wondering where do I start, which order cause I've been seeing people saying Zero then Night and vice versa. Are their any I should stay away from?

Thanks in advance.

Botato | 08-31-14, 3:53 PM
Yeah the way she suddenly became the protagonist (as in we see everything from her PoV) instead of Araragi threw me off at first (also the introduction of Rouka). Also the timeline is a little messed up with all the fast forwarding, it could be my fault because I watched it right after finishing my second run of Bake (Suruga changed so much). But everything came together and made sense in the end so it's all cool.

Tbh I like Hitagi and Hanekawa more, but my opinion definitely improved of Suruga after Hana, now she's second best girl along with Hanekawa, Rouka wasn't bad either. I think it's exactly BECAUSE they made it 99% Suruga and Rouka that I like her more now. We got to learn as much about them as possible. Only thing I wished we could have had is more Kaiki :D

His hair was weird at first yeah, but dayum, it does look good.

Botato | 08-30-14, 9:27 PM
What are your thoughts on Hanamonogatari?

Buru-Hokori | 08-27-14, 11:19 AM
Of course not, I didn't say red is false, I only point that the golden in some senses violates the red, and that for example occured in EP8, when Ange denies Bern's red about everybody being dead with her golden in that all of them are alive. In this case, golden beats red and denies it at the same time. So, if red is the truth, what makes it the golden??
That I am trying to say is the golden is not a real truth by itself but the truth a human chooses to believe, and it can surpass the real truth (red) when you believe the golden above the red. That's what I think.

Of course Erika isn't perfect, she has her doubts and commited fails here and there, the letter was a good example by yours. But one thing is trying to find out how worked out a riddle she herself didn't witness, and another very different not realizing the absence of an human at all, not once but twice, and even claimed all the people were present together.

I don't think an entire EP is there with its only objetive misleading us. But also I can't help but keep in mind what Bern said in EP7, that people who reached their conclusions in that EP would be trolled (I am one of these people xD). How to put it in other words... Have you ever read or watched some mystery stuff, and you thought all the time things were in same way because it seemed like it, but then you get the big surprise at the end when it happen to be in a completly different way?? When you re-read or rewatch it again, you can see the final answer was in there all the way but you didn't realize because the other way you first thought aparently worked as well.
I think Umi is the same, you said it and I think it as well, is a work without a real definitive answer so the readers need interpret it by themselves and reach the answer. All the stuff has a meaning, I can't believe it was only misleading, so, there should be more answers...

I really don't know, I am in my way of re-reading the eight episodes, and taking notes and stuff, so it's a possibility the answer I reach at the end is the Shkanon theory rules for real. Maybe, I'll see. It's also very possible I won't reach any deffinitive answer as well xD

Battler never saw Kanon and Shannon at the same time as the detective, and Will even request them to be present at the same time to figure out if they were one or two different and independent beings. If they were deceived as the detectives, why not us as well?? That was my thought.

I really don't know what to think about the endings... I was very wtf by that moment. The two of them are bittersweet, but the trick ending even more :/

Buru-Hokori | 08-27-14, 5:58 AM
Yeah, it really can be very ambiguous... It's impossible trying to explain Umi without personal interpretations, because of that, several phrases can be veeery ambiguous at the end.
Erika lost against Battler with the 'only 17 humans' of him... Was it just a misinterpretation of "human's" definition?? It's hard to believe this is the case, but yeah, why not??

If the Golden can't be more powerful than the Red if that's not the real truth, does that mean all of them are alive at the end of EP8??

That you say it's true. The POV in EP5 isn't Erika's, so we can't really know what she sees or what she thinks. But I'm trying to be a little logical about this. There're scenes where Erika meets with only one of them at the time. So, she knows someone named Kanon and another one named Shannon existed in Rokkenjima (being or not the same person in reality) and neither of them become a victim of the murders... so, how could Erika claimed all the people alive were in the parlor?? Is the absence of a person even possible going unnoticed for her, the detective with photographic memory??
I am not discarded really the Shkanon theory, it's only I see some inconsistencies because of it.

It's a way too obvious Umi tell you easily a theory like that can be possible, during EP7 it's difficult not realizing that, but that made me go more suspiciuos about it, because Ryukishi wanted us readers to reach the truth for ourselves, making it that obvoius... I don't know what to think for real, I am very confused about it -.-'

That's a nice explanation of the chain's murders in EP3, thanks, I didn't see it that way before. I'll think about it.

If you count Beatrice as a witch, not human, by Maria's POV, what about the Beatrice persona in EP2 or 4??

Indeed, it really doesn't matter how many people believe one thing or another, yep.
Mmm, a Van Dine's rule claims the reader shouldn't be mislead by the author, unless it was a mislead that the detective in the story bear himself. Battler and Will give you tips that that mislead (or not mislead) really exists and they bear with it. So it isn't very low by the author.

What do you think about the endings??

Buru-Hokori | 08-25-14, 5:56 PM
First of all, my apologies, I was very busy these days.

Understood, certainly it's true we can't believe each word about an author's impresion about their adaptations. I put that extract because the words he himself used weren't vagues, he didn't say too much about his final impression but his work as supervisor. But that's ok, again, it can be Ryukishi didn't want getting into trouble with the studio. So you have a point, I'll give the benefit of the doubt.

I always thought the red isn't subjetive but objetive. It doesn't matter who claims A or B, because speaking in red is speaking the truth and only the truth. When you speak from your POV, in other words, when you speak subjectively, it is not allowed to use the red anymore because it isn't the truth anymore but your own truth; evidences of this could be:

- EP5: If Natsuhi could be the culprit, even the red worked for it when Erika revised her theory without Kinzo, why not saying it in red?? For Erika POV it was the truth and Battler claimed being or not the real truth, it was a truth nobody can deny. The same goes for Battler, his theory of Battler culprit was also truth, but he didn't claim it in red.

- Also the golden truth exists there so you can raise your subjetive truth as a red truth. The red is the objetive truth, the golden is the subjetive truth, the one you can believe surpasing even the real truth if you want to believe more in your personal POV than the real thing.

Another point is that also in EP5, being Erika the detective and having photographic memory, how can be explained the scenes where Kanon, Shannon and Erika are the three present??
You said by Erika's POV there are 17 people in Rokkenjima (without her), but if it is true and she already knew Kinzo was dead, who is the 17th person by her POV?? At the end of the 2nd twilight she claimed all the people alive were in the parlor (the moment she inculpated Natsuhi), Kanon & Shanon were alive, indeed they closed the door of the parlor, how can a person like her do not realize one person missing (Shanon or Kanon)?? It's hard to believe.

I counted Beatrice as a person because the 'personality' of Beatrice met with Maria several times during the episodes, nobody except her could give the letter because Maria wouldn't aknowledge just Shanon, Kanon or whoever it was as Beatrice. If we talk about personalities, Beatrice has to be count as another one, it's arguable at least.

About the chapel being important in EP3, it's because Kanon was murdered there and was the last locked room of the chain in the 1st twilight.

It's true the Shkanon theory was present along almost the entire story, but there are people who didn't reach that theory at all. Misleading that much doesn't sense, that's true... but also, I can't help it but think it's easy not reaching Shkanon theory until the lastest EPs. And also I don't think it would be a waste of time, because the fantasy part, the witches and all the tricks would become a waste of time, the end also wold become a waste of time and that's not it, not in the slightest.
I really am not a anti-Shkanon theory, and I am speaking like it, so excuse me (-.-)

I don't want to give up yet because I felt Ryukishi wanted us to find out the truth behind Umineko, he claimed during the story the clues are all in there so we can reach the truth. You're right, nobody will come to you and will claim in red that the truth you reached is the real truth... but even so, giving up yet... I don't want to do it, I want to know, I am re-reading the whole again because of that.

And you have a point certainly xD Reading theories is a way too funny, there're very smart people. Also, for me, it's very enjoyable talking about Umi with you, so thanks ^^

CrankyRIP | 08-24-14, 12:34 PM
I'm pretty sure when UBW begins it will be revived, never lose hope in your Yuetsu.

1)I see, i guess i'll read the novel then.

2)Hmmm well i guess it will take me a very long time to read it, lots of Volumes including New Testment.T_T
If it was only info dumbs and no events skipped in the anime i would've continued where it left off, but since the anime skipped something i guess i'll read it from the beginning unless i know at which volume it is, then i'll read that event and continue on.
Well thanks boss(i can call you boss, right?) for answering my questions and btw i like the fact that you rate only by Enjoyment and not try to be a critic-wanna-be.

CrankyRIP | 08-23-14, 10:33 PM
Hi how are you doing boss?

I wanted to ask about some stuff, please bare with me:
1)Is the anime adaptation of Umineko sucks and shits on the novels or is it a good?

2) If i sarted reading Toaru Majutsu no Index from where the anime left off it's okay right? i won't be missing anything? and just to make sure if i should continue i should continue from after the first Volume of SS, right?

Buru-Hokori | 08-20-14, 4:59 PM

I supposed Deen didn't sell at all speaking of Umi, it really is a strange anime which ends in an even more strange way... and for readers, it's sure not as good as an adaptation, so... thanks for the info ^^

Wouu, I really dislike the idea of reading through different theories which were made by other people time ago for several reasons... because of this, I didn't know there were people who could deny even entire EPs... that's in fact unbelievable in a bad way...

That the anime would give extra hints is something I guess I made by myself after reading an interview which contains this:

But even though the autor supervised it carefully, there are some differences between the original and the anime (I am not talking about the rush or similars but in key facts), he was very careful with Umi and he should have known Umi's fans would see the adaptation as well (at least some of them), so, why the incongruences?? I don't know, but maybe we can see them like extra-hints than incoungruences, because if Ryukishi himself we're talking about!! Mmm, I don't know... I do believe it but is really uncertain I guess.

Now, about the game/novels...

I don't trust that much in the wiki, but I do trust Ryukishi. I am not among those people who think he screwed up the story, not in the slightest; because of that I am trying to find out the truth behind Umineko even if I can't support anymore the Shkanon theory (I have not reached it yet even by far...). Ryukishi claimed he gave the hints to the reader, but also he said he misleaded them too because he wanted more than anything the reader himself made his way to reach the truth. So I think giving so much hints about the Shkanon theory was not revealing the truth, indeed he helped us even more with that making us think even more hard.

I asked you about Featherine because I do believe she represents the author somehow, and so, the same way she did not allow the truth in Eva'diary to be known out of the blue, Ryukishi neither want to give us the truth like a present.

All of these are only my personal thoughts.
Even so, you seem in fact much more experienced in Umineko (I only read the novels month ago or so and I am reading it again, so I am a begginer xD), because of this I am really interested in your theories too. You said the other day you believed in a Shkanon theory but not the culprit, how is that in fact?? I am very interested, perhaps your vision could help me ^^

Buru-Hokori | 08-18-14, 2:01 PM
That's it, Umi made you think magic exists, but, what kind of magic?? Do you really think the witches, demons and others are real or another thing??
I mean, Ryukishi himself claimed he wrote two different stories and then resembled it together as one. So, if you search for it, can you really find an only mystery story in Umineko?? I wonder.

The anime was rushed like hell in fact. First time watching it, I needed a guide to remember all the characters, their names and relationships xD However, even so there is lack of details, I think the anime was made somehow to give "extra-hints" to the VN readers, because there are differences with the VN and I don't believe Ryukishi who supervised it didn't notice at all...

Do you know why Deen did not make a second season??

I do think magic exists in Umineko, somehow...

And I didn't know what you say about there're people who claims Ryukishi is a liar... Why!?
I mean, yep, Ryukishi deceive us, players, along the story, he himself said it, because whitout all the deception is impossible to conceive Umineko. For a simple example, when you see the Siestas/Chiesters killing someone, you then realize the truth is the culprit fire on that someone. But really, calling Ryukishi a liar is not fair... so, why there are people who claims that??

Do you think Featherine/Ikuko represents Ryukishi somehow??

Buru-Hokori | 08-17-14, 10:59 AM
Thanks for answering, it was quick. Of course there is no problem, we can talk this way.
So, about the topic,

As you can see, my English is really bad, so excuse me ^^;

Botato | 08-14-14, 7:40 AM
Yeah I saw that yesterday and was tempted to reply. I think he surpassed some of his previous posts this time, he even managed to squeeze in a subtle NGNL bash there. That's not the first time he did this in SAO II actually, in episode 2 he bashed Kajiura for being repetitive and un-creative with the OST because apparently "it's just a Madoka OST rehash."

Oh I know because I've been seeing him all over the place lately. Probably something like it's the fans having shitty taste for not acknowledging how great these things are.

-Riptide- | 08-12-14, 1:09 AM
Yes, yes it wasn't. Although I guess I should have just reported the thread. Ah at least it was fun derailing it. And I actually got to do something productive when I was banned.

-Riptide- | 08-11-14, 4:37 AM
At least the thread was locked. That was what I was after so I guess I succeeded.

-Riptide- | 08-11-14, 3:44 AM
Seriously? I can understand how me and Botato were banned because of that thread. But you? You weren't even derailing that thread.

Botato | 08-10-14, 2:05 PM
Oh wow, so I guess everyone from that thread was banned as well? I mean, Riptide was apparently xD

Well I got to read the rules again at least for the second time since I joined, they added more stuff after I read them the first time. In short warnings/ban levels get lowered by 1 for every 6 months we don't break the rules. Sooooo now the whole successive bans makes sense.

rainwalk | 08-10-14, 1:54 PM
Oh well D:
You are still a big fan of fate and nasu so the rest doesn't even matter B-)

rainwalk | 08-10-14, 1:25 PM
lol why did you got banned?

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