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DAICON 3 Opening animation CitizenGeek	4 replies	by kyonthehandbutt »» 01-24-10, 1:30 PM
Gunbuster & Diebuster DeimosFormido	12 replies	by kyonthehandbutt »» 01-16-10, 2:12 PM
Club Graphics _edge_	4 replies	by ios »» 12-17-09, 4:41 AM
ATTN Gainax fans, assistance needed. (Diebuster related) Shirogetsu	9 replies	by ios »» 12-17-09, 4:38 AM
Pre-Evangelion anime, which one have you watched? Sourcerer	1 replies	by ios »» 12-17-09, 4:36 AM

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antitype | 01-28-10, 9:20 AM

Yeah, I don't think it's a shitstorm. I've seen some real shitstorms.

Man. KPV, the ending of TwN! 2

There were aspects of the show that, to me, would have made it almost unwatchable if it weren't for its very clear ties to Gunbuster. More importantly you still haven't told me how Gunbuster would be any worse off without Diebuster, but I really don't think you can.

Kaiserpingvin | 01-28-10, 8:14 AM

Dunno if it's a shitstorm, just a discussion. Tho' I can sometimes be harsher in tone than I mean to. Which I might have been. Not intentional in that case, anyway.

It doesn't owe anything because the good things in TwN! 2 aren't good because of the prequel, they are good on their own. Just having a few similarities to the first one is natural, since it's, well, a sequel.

Metroid | 01-28-10, 4:21 AM

I know, I know, shame on me. Let me go back and give Gunbuster a 10 then. :>

I also didn't want to start a shit storm here so, woops.

antitype | 01-27-10, 12:43 PM

I don't think Diebuster owes anything to its predecessor

... Seriously?

Er, how would Gunbuster be any worse off without Diebuster?

Kaiserpingvin | 01-27-10, 12:01 PM

Well, what different people mean by quality indeed can be anything by now (like 'moral', which means anything from 'God says so' to 'I am not sure what I am saying but it is right'). But quality as hardness seems to work well with how quality is used in non-aesthetic fields, so I take that as the most natural meaning of the word. As arrogant as that may be.

And I can't argue about tastes, oho. I would likely even agree that TTGL is ever so slightly better than TwN, mostly due to the panache they integrated a very impressively coherent symbolic language with the message (which granted wasn't a terribly unique or clever one). I don't think Diebuster owes anything to its predecessor, but they are definitely a linked whole Without either both would be worse off.

antitype | 01-27-10, 11:49 AM

Yeah, my wording was problematic. I presumed it would be understood that I was only speaking for my own tastes and not of the "quality" of these shows. I guess I react to that word much like you react to objectivity and subjectivity—the very concept of "quality" is even more vague and conflated, I would say.

The reason I insisted that it had nothing to do with the topic at hand was that I (mostly) wasn't arguing for or against Diebuster's technical merits. If I had been, I'd have dwelt more on the matter of its being a piggybacker—that is, the best of it is better because of its echoes of Gunbuster. If it didn't have that show behind it, it would have been a lot less remarkable, in my opinion. To wit, it owes much of its quality to Gunbuster. As for its own quality, I can only defer to my own tastes and my reaction to the character of Nono as she transformed through the show. I felt TTGL was much more consistent in that regard, its adolescent middle arc not withstanding.

Kaiserpingvin | 01-27-10, 11:36 AM

You used the word 'better', so that is what I thought you did.

As for objectivity and subjectivity, these words are overused and misunderstood. They have basically ruined philosophy this century (hallo postmodernism). I tend not to use them for they mean nothing by now (the conflation done with them is bizarre - universal/relative, eternal/temporary, intrinsic/extrinsic, non-/indexical, precise/vague, logic/emotion, and what objective/subjective actually mean themselves - all very different things which are mixed together in a horrible melange).

So yes, people may disagree - people may disagree on everything. That tells us little. What matters are the arguments they may make regarding it - in the case of quality, that'd be something like pointing out what one has to do to make things work.

It's like how you can talk about good or bad bridges as opposed to bridges you like or dislike. Some are just genuinely well-done, wonders of engineering but someone may think they are ugly/discomforting/what have you.

antitype | 01-27-10, 11:21 AM

I was only stating my opinion when I said I liked TTGL more than Diebuster, so if you thought I was trying to speak of its "quality" objectively, no, that wasn't my intention. I don't think quality is as simply quantifiable as "that which is hard to do," because everything comes down to tastes and opinions and we can intellectualize things as much as we want to. I think Kemonozume is one of the best-looking anime ever and a lot of people think it's hideous, but all I can offer to that is your typical "they don't get it," or surmise that they don't have the same appreciation for raw, noisy art that I do and something that I might think looks too bland and generic would look better to them. But which is of "higher quality"? Which was more difficult to do? I'd argue that Kemonozume was "harder" than, say, Haruhi. Or whatever. Someone else might disagree. You know?

Anyway, okay, I get what you mean about Nono and the GAR thing. I can agree with that, and I liked her a lot more once she started kicking ass and becoming larger than life. She irritated me for the first half of the series. Matter of taste, you know? Quality has little to do with it.