Thoughtful Discourses on Japanese Audiovisual Culture Club

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For all wannabe intellectuals, film majors, hobby philosophers - as well as random people who simply want to exchange words over various esoteric or in-depth aspects of modern japanese visual culture. That is, manga, anime, games, visual novels, eroge, ecchi, music, figurines and so on. Discussion in whatever manner - comparative, specific or relative within/between series and media, as you see interesting.

Avoid snobbism, but do not forget that it is supposed to be "Thoughtful". Respect each other. Pretentiousness not required to join the club (but in some cases helps).

Anime/manga/characters list will be extended to every series touched upon on any meaningful way.

Don't forget, we're intimate in here~

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Club Discussion

Poll: Berserk: should it be on the Anime / Manga list for this club? unknown_unlisted	6 replies	by gatotsu911 »» 07-04-12, 12:21 AM
Kunihiko Ikuhara + Penguins = ??? (Mawaru Penguindrum discussion) FOE-tan	1 replies	by ClariPlayer5 »» 07-16-11, 8:30 PM
Discussions on the Fractale System FOE-tan	2 replies	by _laz_ »» 07-14-11, 8:30 AM
Melancholic God Kaiserpingvin	12 replies	by m4rc0 »» 03-12-11, 7:40 PM
Mandatory Madoka Magica Musings Messageboard FOE-tan	17 replies	by m4rc0 »» 03-12-11, 12:31 AM

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Club Comments

m4rc0 | 09-20-11, 5:24 PM

Whoa, a lot since I've been here for the last time.

I agree with many things lazlain wrote, but I'm kinda confused.

What I got:

about the thing with the doctor and the hobo (a very common argument in the internet), I think he was trying to say that even if the most influential group that dictates the aesthetic values say something is good, a random guy won't be wrong when stating it's bad.

First, because saying something is good because someone said so is a fallacy.

Second, because saying someone is wrong because who that person is (like the hobo), is also a fallacy.

And third, because there is almost no obecjtive criteria we can use to evaluate an anime. The only ones are the FPS rate of the animation, the maintenance of the art quality throughout a series and the absence of plot holes. That is too little to evaluate IMO.

And since evaluations are mostly subjective, he argues that there's no standard and even though you can say something sucks, that's only your opinion.

I can't argue with that.

In my opinion, it helps to give arguments to support your opinions. Like saying: I like Naruto because some of the fights are very clever, instead of going narutard and saying it's the best anime of all time.

He also argues that not only all evaluations are subjective, but that they are done by comparing titles and thus they depend on the experience of the viewer.

I can't argue with that either. That explains why a new fan watches IS and says it's awesome, while a veteran that has seen his share of shounen harem love comedies will think it's lame or will like it for other reasons than the plot.

But then the discussion kinda goes into rating standards and other stuff that really contradict what's above.

Personally, I think that the problem is in how people discuss. Many try to convince a fan that something this person likes is shit. Or convince a hater that something is good.

I don't really want to tell people what they should discuss, how and with which objectives, but since all of the above is true most of these discussions are pointless.

I'd rather be discussing the similar character types, reading the insigths other people had when watching anime X and stuff like that.

Nausea | 09-19-11, 1:21 PM

Thoughtful discourse!?!

Why, that's my favourite kind of discourse!

_laz_ | 08-10-11, 5:08 AM

@MadDogV2
The works are not the prime focus but were used as examples to support our arguments which had something to do with standards, opinions in general, and subjectivity.

@DrewTheDude
I will clarify my argument which indirectly supports yours.
"...eating a bag of nails to a bag of shit" vs.
"doctor's opinion vs hobo's opinion"
My previous post,
"That doesn't mean that I believe it and will act on it accordingly.
It must be analyzed based on whatever objective standards is used to determine its accuracy. ",
should answer your question about the reliability of the information.
I did mention about the possibility of the hobo being right which disproves the doctor's opinion.
What I meant is that both opinions are initially unreliable and thus are not true yet.
Having proof raises the validity of the opinion.

This all depends on how you view all opinions as initially valid or invalid, and reliable or unreliable

Of course, if I do this all the time, then I might actually die from cancer.

Did I miss anything?

DrewTheDude | 08-06-11, 9:03 AM

MadDogV2: You've completely missed the point of the argument if you think that's the subject matter.

MadDogV2 | 08-05-11, 8:52 PM

Please do change the subject, I'd rather discuss the meaning of works, not whether they suck or not. Otherwise you end up with the following:

_laz_ | 08-05-11, 5:37 AM

@YoungVagabond
MAL is confusing at times.
4/10 rating by itself is bad but if reviewed, the overall rating 4/10 is decent.
I view it as 5+/10 so, to me, it is average.

Shall we end the game then?
Can you suggest a new topic that is to your liking?

I said in my previous post that I will not ignore an opinion.
That doesn't mean that I believe it and will act on it accordingly.
It must be analyzed based on whatever objective standards is used to determine its accuracy.

We can conclude then that proving anything doesn't necessarily mean that it is undeniably true or false so it is inefficient.
Thus, this entire discussion that you actually started by opposing my view of "Nothing is truly good or bad" is a waste of our time.

I assume that idiots also don't believe and act accordingly about anything. That's freedom for you.

Whether this is all useful and entertaining or not, it is up to you and everyone else in this club.
Also, I am the only one defending my arguments and I am out of ideas for the moment.

YoungVagabond | 08-05-11, 3:37 AM

By the way, I should note that in my MAL ratings, 4/10 is "bad" and 3/10 is "horrible". They're certainly not "average/decent" by any means.

Drew's response below was very good, and honestly, I have nothing more to add.

One can play these silly semantics/pseudo-philosophical games all they like, but it doesn't lead anywhere interesting or tangible.

And I had to laugh at "you can't prove the homeless bum's medical opinion is less accurate than that of the doctor!", because you can't prove anything in real life. (You can only prove anything in math...and even then, about a very limited number of cases)

I can't "prove" that the world won't end tomorrow or that Obama isn't actually a space alien from Neptune, but I think anyone who believes that and acts accordingly is a fucking idiot.

Pointing out that certain things aren't provable and using that as some kind of defense is a stupid, boring waste of time.

_laz_ | 08-02-11, 10:09 AM

It seems that it wasn't obvious at all that I'm being philosophical or technical here, not necessarily realistic. Same goes to the subjectivity topic.

Loosening standards? Any way you look at it?
We evaluate upon comparison using a general objective criteria.
The anime doesn't change but our perceptions towards it does.
If I LOOK at it, it's average.
If You LOOK at it, it's a piece of shit.
Since I'm not convincing anyone here about School Days, should we break it down into its simplest factors?

Psycho Wars is 7/10 and Mars of Destruction is 10/10?
... ... ...
so much for objectivity
.........

It hasn't been proven yet so both are not completely reliable. Like I said, the doctor is more accurate therefore the likelihood of his opinion becoming a fact is higher.
Why should I outrightly disregard an opinion?
If I can't find a hobo as of the moment, does that mean I'm wrong to consider their opinion?
Even if i find one, how will I be able to show you?
Which definition of hobo are you using anyway?

To enjoy something with such flaws means loosening your standards in watching, not evaluating.
That means that despite the fact that it is piece of shit, you are still willing to watch every episode?
I'm confused with your standards and enjoyment.

It is a fallacy but the same logic applies for positive aspects of whatever is being compared.

Like I said, I don't care about what you think of me.
This evolved from this "Nothing is truly good or bad because of our perception." to whatever the discussion is right now.

If it is not hard to enjoy something despite its flaws, then there should be less opposition about whatever I have been psoting and the topic might have been different by now.